|
3d6 - the average is 10.5, not 11. So a dead average set of rolls will be a 3 pt buy, not a 6 pt buy.
4d6, keeping all 4 dice, gives you an average of 14.
4d6, take the best 3, gets you a median of 12, mean of 12.24, and mode of 13 (if you've forgotten what 'mode' is, it's the single most commonly occurring number out of the possible results). Range is still 3-18.
Yes, this is correct.
Thus, the average point buy for 3d6 is 0.5 x 6 = 3 points.
The average point buy for 4d6 drop the lowest is 2.24 x 6 = 13.5 point buy.
We should all be very happy with 15 point buy.
Note: The standard deviation for 4d6 drop lowest is 2.84, which means that about 2/3 of all rolls should be between 9.4 and 15.1. You'll roll above a 15 about 1/7th of the time (the tails are not identical; that's why it's not 1/6th).
As an example of the limitations that 3d6 in order imposes on a party, below is a party of four and what you can end up with:
12 Str, 7 Dex, 10 Con, 15 Int, 9 Wis, 10 Cha (4 pt buy); an alchemist (probably one that doesn't concentrate on bombs) or perhaps a magus? maybe just a strongish, clumsy witch or wizard
9 Str, 12 Dex, 7 Con, 11 Int, 9 Wis, 7 Cha (-7 pt buy); a rogue is about the best you can do with this
11 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 9 Int, 11 Wis, 12 Cha (13 pt buy); a semi-decent ranger (archer or possibly switch-hitter)
11 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha (effectively a 2 pt buy, even though you can't reduce a score below 7 with point buy); possibly a "dumb jock" fighter or maybe a "Dudley Do-right" paladin
The PC with the -7 pt buy will probably not feel all that useful, especially in combat. With a -2 Con modifier, they will also have trouble staying alive in combat. What will probably happen, just like in old 1st Ed AD&D play, is that the player will get the character killed so they can roll a new one.
Dragonchess - I've noticed that over the last 25 sets of stats that I've rolled, I haven't generated a STR score of more than 12. I've also noticed that my high rolls seem to come later in the array, for WIS and CHA as an example. As far as STR goes, your 4 sets seem to mirror that phenomenon as well.
|
Note: The standard deviation for 4d6 drop lowest is 2.84, which means that about 2/3 of all rolls should be between 9.4 and 15.1. You'll roll above a 15 about 1/7th of the time (the tails are not identical; that's why it's not 1/6th).
Forgot the standard deviation-- and now, I'd have to hit the books to remember how to set it up from the raw data I kept.
TY, IVV-- I appreciate your adding that to the data I had. :)
Dragonchess - I've noticed that over the last 25 sets of stats that I've rolled, I haven't generated a STR score of more than 12. I've also noticed that my high rolls seem to come later in the array, for WIS and CHA as an example. As far as STR goes, your 4 sets seem to mirror that phenomenon as well.
It's just statistical clustering. A second set of four I rolled came out:
13 Str, 9 Dex, 12 Con, 7 Int, 14 Wis, 15 Cha (12 pt buy); a cleric or oracle
13 Str, 9 Dex, 7 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, 5 Cha (equivalent of a 9 pt buy); a summoning/support druid or druid/wizard/mystic theurge?
14 Str, 11 Dex, 9 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 17 Cha (19 pt buy); a powerful sorcerer, possibly a gnome for the Con and Cha bump
10 Str, 8 Dex, 10 Con, 9 Int, 7 Wis, 12 Cha (-5 pt buy); a gnome or halfling synthesist summoner is probably the best choice
|
...
My goal is to create a open adventure, starting the group off as slaves, with no gear or wealth, where their first task is escaping and then returning across country to their home.
...
Dean A:
I would LOVE to be in a campaign like this!Anyway, I am considering joining the ranks of campaign GMs, and this sounds like my idea of a perfect game. I would like to ask you some questions about how you plan to handle some of the technical issues. Can we discuss this "off-line", maybe via another thread or via e-mail?
Thanks.
|
|
Add me to the list of people who prefer point buy or arrays to rolling.
In the early days of D&D a stat of 14 was only marginally better than that of a 7 for most abilities. It would be a one point difference in combat modifers at most, if not zero, depending on the ability score. Unless you were a fighter an 18 strength only got you a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage. So rolling a straight 3d6 wasn't that much of a big deal. Someone who rolled relatively low wasn't completely gimped compared to someone who rolled well.
However, in Pathfinder the difference between a 7 and 14 is a five point swing in modifiers which is much more significant. For me the problem isn't the absolute levels of the abilities since the DM can always adjust the encounters as appropriate. The problem comes in with large differences in relative modifiers between players. It's hard to build an appropriately balanced encounter when one guy has the equivalent of a 32 point build while another is sitting at a -2.
The reason I ask is that the average for 3d6 is going to be 11. Given 6 stats that means the average points are going to be 6. So of course it is better to take the 15 points. Say the roll is 4d6 drop the lowest. Well, based a lot of math I did when I was younger that averages to 14. So for 6 stats that would be a 30 point buy. In that case it is better to take the roll over the points.
Actually, here are more precise statistics for those two rolling methods:
3d6*: Average of 10.5 per ability; average of 3 total points**
4d6: Average of 12.24 per ability; average of 18.83 total points**
* This ignores the safety nets within the BECMI rules, including a complete re-roll under some circumstances and the option to sacrifice some points in a stat to increase another.
** I had to extrapolate the point cost for values below 8.
Edit: Sorry, took too long for my monster post and got ninja'd on the above correction. Just one thing to add:
Thus, the average point buy for 3d6 is 0.5 x 6 = 3 points.
The average point buy for 4d6 drop the lowest is 2.24 x 6 = 13.5 point buy.
You have to look at every possible point total and determine the probability (for instance, there is a 13.3% chance of getting 13 - or 3 points - for a single ability). It turns out your estimation is correct for 3d6 but 4d6 comes out much differently as I listed above.
So the 4d6 method falls below 20 point buy, on average. But as people have repeatedly mentioned, one of the main problems is in the deviation. I have a spreadsheet where I can simulate various dice rolling methods and analyze 1023 results at a time (what can I say, I like numbers). Looking just at the highest and lowest results out of one set before me now, I have 3d6 giving 35 point-buy versus -32 point-buy and 4d6 giving 68 point-buy (with an 18 and three 17s) versus -19 point-buy. Those are, of course, the extremes in those sets, but even if you look at a chart of those results, you'll see that the majority of the rolls still vary by up to 25 points.
As much as I like to nerd out on numbers, especially ability score generation, this really doesn't do much for the overall question: What ability generation method is the most fun?
It comes down to personal preferences and expectations. I believe the the author of the original post knew his fellow players enough that he could spring a drastically different system on them without causing a split. And, unsurprisingly, it seems they are more than willing to try the experiment. What is fun for everyone needs to be defined through communication. Knowledge of each other's expectations can naturally happen as a group integrates over time but often requires direct discussion.
I am GMing a new group of role-players with relatively little (or no) role-playing experience. Stat-buy, at this point, would be too much number crunching for two of them. And another is so concerned with making the right choices (much like me) that point-buy is almost a tortuous affair. I know some (or all) would be fine with one person being more powerful than the rest and even if their own character is "not powerful". However, I know they would like some good stats and, for a couple of reasons, I personally like to have relatively even scores across the party.
As such, I've come up with an interesting system of randomly determining ability scores for everyone without too much variance and with very little decision making required on their parts. I plan to use it when they make their first characters (they are currently happy with the Beginner Box pre-gens).
In short (deep breath), everyone gets together and rolls 4d6 (drop lowest) seven times. Everyone's scores go into one pool. Then they choose or randomly determine who goes first. The scores are assigned to them, starting at the highest, in a 'snaking' order (e.g., 4th person gets the 4th and 5th highest scores). This leaves the 6 worst results for the dust bin. Finally, I analyze everyone's equivalent point values and anyone who is below the top gets to adjust a single result high enough to bring them close or equal (not higher).
Sounds convoluted because it is, but it satisfies what I see as the requirements for 'fun':
- random generation of abilities (we all like rolling dice)
- no worry about min/maxing (for anyone)
- little to no variance between the characters
- they are "in it together" as a team right from the generation of their stats
- I get to play with the numbers (taking care of all the complication for them)
A final note, related to the OP: I started GMing with 3d6 when I was 6 years old. I often re-rolled until I got a result I liked ("That one didn't count") so I can't say I'm a 3d6 veteran. However, I sometimes revisit BECMI rules and do it right (I'm an adult now, after all) to experience some old-school gaming. It can be a lot of fun as long as your expectations match the game.
- Niilo
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Back in the day 3d6 in order was the order.
Throwing a toddler temper tantrum? Geez some gamers need to get a life. The Game Master is the boss of the table as that is rule 0 as set down by the Old School Masters back long ago! GO FORTH FROM MY TABLE IN SHAME FOR YE ARE NOT WELCOME! HA HA!
I figure most players have never really played the deadly low stat, low hit point, save or die world of old school gaming. It's amazing how well we did with all those disadvantages. It's just more exciting for me because despite low stats I almost always survived! YEAH!
I always imagined the jocks and bullies were the monsters and villains I was fighting and I was kicking their @$$!
I took what the dice gave me and I had fun. It was fun NOT having the most heroic character though sometimes I DID roll a good one I always preferred the underdog character.
Why?
Every game was a challenge and an adventure. Eery time we played and old school roll 3d6 in order type of game it was hell to survive bit most of us did. It was hard to level up as well as many of us played throughout high school and only went up to 6th level.
A score of 18 meant something! Now it's just another score in an unending line of progression.
The DM was a fantastic story teller as well and we had the best of times. I can't say I have experienced any of the old school vibe in any of the new games as you can die but it's really hard too.
In the 3d6 in olden era of gaming 0 HPs was dead as there was no negative HPs and troll like healing BUT it also took five minutes to roll a character.
Point buying is okay but it always makes boring cookie cutter characters every time.
Actually there is an RPG on LULU called 3d6 in order! Look it up!
http://www.lulu.com/shop/richard-tongue/3d6-in-order/paperback/product-1895 4562.html
Heh! Looks cool!
P.S. Honestly a negative Int in PFRPG/3.5 is a disadvantage of epic proportions that will handicap a character permanently and Int should not be the only source of skill points.
my preference is 25-30 point buy, but i am willing to settle for 20. i like playing MAD builds of specific classes, like archers, melee inquisitors, dual wielders, or strength ninjas.
if i have to roll, make it 2d6+6 arranged as desired.
there is no way i can tolerate 3d6 in order, especially when i have nothing above a 14 and the guy next to me has nothing lower than my highest stat. the only way i have ever gotten an 18 by rolling was a variant of the dice pool where you recorded your rolls on a spreadsheat individually and distributed the dice results as you wished. where i got with a pool of 42 dice (equivalent to 5d6 drop lowest 2, reroll any number of dice from the roll up to twice like yahtzee) got 10 6s 65s and 2 4s. arranged them to get 3 18s 1 16 and 2 14s. and thus the cat eared vampire sorceress sabrina nicolleti was born. the array got nicknamed the Sabrina array
Okay. I suppose necroing a thread to make fun of gamers is a good enough reason.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing I see people forgetting most often is this:
In the old days, the ability scores had barely as much relation to the system as they do now.
It used to take a 14 or higher to actually get any kind of modifier, and any roll short of that was meaningless. An 18 strength was only a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage.
|
One thing I see people forgetting most often is this:
In the old days, the ability scores had barely as much relation to the system as they do now.
It used to take a 14 or higher to actually get any kind of modifier, and any roll short of that was meaningless. An 18 strength was only a +1 to hit and a +2 to damage.
Agreed; I'm always sure to mention this in any ability score debate.
One concern I have for 5e is that it will increase the demand for good ability scores, further inflating point-buy numbers and usage.
I've run with 3d6, including 1s. You may have to roll a few times to get a decent set. No problem trying it.
It is fun, and a great way to start a game at level 1 (or earlier, level 1 commoners as I started one game), if you want to emphasise that the players were just people before taking up adventuring and being drawn into something huge.
Currently, using 4d6 for each ability, but take the best 3. 1s do count, move the stats around as you wish. This gives a level of stats I as the dm are very happy about. Everyone has a weakness in an ability score, but also their strengths. They are not super heroes, but not useless.
|
|
I've run with 3d6, including 1s. You may have to roll a few times to get a decent set. No problem trying it.
It is fun, and a great way to start a game at level 1 (or earlier, level 1 commoners as I started one game), if you want to emphasise that the players were just people before taking up adventuring and being drawn into something huge.
Currently, using 4d6 for each ability, but take the best 3. 1s do count, move the stats around as you wish. This gives a level of stats I as the dm are very happy about. Everyone has a weakness in an ability score, but also their strengths. They are not super heroes, but not useless.
I've also bounced back and forth between those two systems, depending on the style of game the group wants.
Yes, some will be disgusted and furious at starting as level 1 commoners heading in the direction of a pc class, and using 3d6.
|
|
I've been pondering having players roll 3d6 once, and choose from that set or the elite array. That way the rolling actually counts, because they aren't rolling until they get a set they like.
If you have 6 players having each player roll 3d6 once to create an array they all draw from is a good compromise (everybody is equal in point buy, but there is still an element of chance in character creation).
If you have only 4 players then add an 11 and a 10 to the array, or if they rolled poorly a 17 and an 8 or 9.
(Arg... I just have to point this out. :P )
The average point value of a 3d6 roll is between .5 and 1 depending on how you assign points to values less than 7. If you count anything less than a 7 as still just -4 points, you get an average of 0.898. If you count each as -2 more than the previous (so a 6 is worth -6), you get an average of 0.574.
I haven't done the math for 4d6 drop lowest yet, but it should be worth more than expected for the same reason.
|
|
I've been experimenting with players rolling a single set together as well. It has been interesting.
I've done that before - whichever player rolls first (using the normal rules for re-rolls), I gave the other players the option of using that players roll or rolling their own (with no other chance to re-roll). Everyone was quite happy - those who wanted balance got to use the first roll, and those who liked to roll got to do so anyway.
|
|
You guys really need to try some "Dogma" Role Playing.
Old AD&D is perfect for this as there is a random Dungeon creator.
Osric an OGL AD&D clone that is FREE will work great for this as well as it too has a random dungeon generator in the back of the book.
Roll 3d6 in order and keep what you get. Play the best class for what is rolled or not!
Roll ONCE for your hit points and keep what you get no matter how low.
Roll your money! Buy stuff! Finish your character and start playing.
Make at least three characters (or more!) as they die like flies! Save or Die! You are dead at "0" Hit Points. No negative hit points!
When your character dies the next character is found in the next room as a prisoner.
The GM gives no mercy. Whatever the dice roll is what happens on the random monster chart. Traps everywhere.
Think of Unreal Tournament in a fantasy RPG format.
It's okay to have a story but the primary reason for a "Dogma" RPG game is to kill monsters and get treasure.
There are various objectives in a "Dogma" RPG game.
Who can survive the longest.
How many times you die a night.
Best Death.
Quickest Death!
Funniest Death
Kill Rate
Most Treasure as 1GP = 1XP
First person to make it to Second Level
First Person to Make it to Third Level (and so on)
Try this form or "early" role playing in the Endless Dungeon of Death. You might just be surprised how fun it is.
As long as Feats have attribute pre-req's (some of them quite high), then a standard 3d6 method will never suffice for many characters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OP it's not the 3d6 that I mind. It's the straight down the line part where the first roll must be str and the second must be dex, etc. I don't think I could do that. If I said I wanted to play a wizard then rolled a 5 intelligence I'd retire my character after the first adventure.
In thirty years of gaming, I've used point buy exactly ONCE.
3d6 in order. Good old iron man style.
The only issues I have with it are prerequisites are going to be difficult to qualify for making it extra difficult to use build options to overcome the power loss from low stats. And for many casters it may be difficult to even maintain proper spell progression.
I have done this with two extra house rules in place to help with the issues. First I remove all minimum stat prerequisites, making it simple to grab the feats you want. {Second I allow players to swap in a 13 before race modifiers into the prime stat of their class, this allows any class to be playable at this lower power level.} edit... this sounds less abuse able than my old rule.
Remember also you may need to adjust down the monster difficulty if your characters are struggling with book challenges.
As a player, I've played under 3d6 in order, 4d6 arrange as desired (most common), and even 5d6 keep highest 3, arrange as desired. I had fun with them all, and sometimes I don't have an exact idea of what I'd like to play, so "in order" can have my trying races/classes I wouldn't normally pick, which is cool. I've never done point-buy as a player in anything other than HERO and GURPS.
As a DM, I vary the method based on the campaign I'm going to run, and I let everyone know the method ahead of time just in case someone isn't cool with it. (Not every game I run will interest all the gamers I know, so this is no harm no foul as far as I'm concerned, maybe my next game will float their boat better.) Currently using 5d6 keep highest 3, arrange as desired.
As an aside, I've always wanted to run a game called "The Losers Brigade" where everyone used *2d6* in order, probably using AD&D 1E. I could hear someone at the table shout "YES! I GOT A 9! I QUALIFY FOR A CHARACTER CLASS!!!!!" Surprisingly enough, with everyone in the same boat, every player I asked wanted to try it. ;)
I would do it for a short module or a one-shot, but for an AP or anything expected to take more the 3 sessions I would not even sit down at the table.
We've been playing 3d6, player selects where to put their scores, for years. I personally find it much more rewarding than systems in which the average stat is higher.
3d6 characters tend to have both strengths and weaknesses and that's good for the game. In fact, I find that the challenges of DnD and Pathfinder are best suited for 3d6 characters. I find that if I run a game with 4d6 characters, point-buy, etc I generally have to increase difficulty levels manually in order to keep the game challenging/fun.
Fun for you or fun for the players?
Fun for you or fun for the players?
Turns out ... if the players aren't having fun, neither is the DM ... and if the DM isn't having fun, neither are the players.
I'm not saying that all players or all DMs fall into the category of liking a 'low powered' campaign, but even at this moment I'm running a campaign with at least 2 players who have never before played with stats as low as 3d6 and so far feedback has been nothing but positive.
3d6 is probably closer the 15 point buy so one would not need to try as hard to compensate if everyone rolls decently. Every time I have seen it though the GM has to compensate for the player that is hated by the dice gods.
Some GM's allow rerolls, but if you are going to do the "reroll until you get a decent score" then just give the elite array or use pb and be done with it.
I have seen players reroll 5 or 6 times. I saw it as a waste of time.
I have seen players reroll 5 or 6 times. I saw it as a waste of time.
You're right there ... but I've found that my players prefer re-rolling sets to just going point-buy. The reason is they like the randomness and the chance of having unusually good results. In fact, when I've offered the chance to point-buy or roll dice ... their choice ... everyone takes dice rolling.
Again ... that's just people I play with, not necessarily everyone.
We do, also, have special rules in place such as:
* If your rolled set contains no scores of 14+ (+2 or above) before racial adjustments, you may - if you choose - continue to roll additional sets until you get one that has a 14+. You then must choose one of the sets. Usually, this results in a total of 2-3 sets rolled.
* If you have rolled any stat below an 8, you may drop one stat by 1 point in order to bring that other stat up to an 8 ... no matter how low it was. However, you cannot subsequently reduce that 8 in a standard 2/1 point-swap.
So ... I probably should have qualified myself better in stating that we do more of a "realistic 3d6" (realistic as in 'playable character', not 'realism') than a "straight 3d6".
The general result is about 65-70 total points among all stats. That's basically a 10 point buy.
|
|
What would you think of 3d in order and switch one attribute with the other otherwise an organic character.
I have seen players use the rules especially with point buy make some pure min maxed characters that were great for them but buy the rules broke the game for the GM and the rest of the players. Granted this was in 3.5 D&D. Question! Can you do the dame thing in Pathfinder?
Having looked over the rules it seems that Pazio has plugged the leaks and made all the characters excellent.
I must admit I love playing Pathfinder but hate running it for the most part.
Yeah normal 3d6 is the equivalent of 3 Point Buy I think.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah normal 3d6 is the equivalent of 3 Point Buy I think.
Yup, 10.5 is the average roll...obviously you can't roll a 10.5 but you could roll 3 10's and 3 11's so if your rolls are absolutely as close to the base average as possible it would be a 3 pt buy.
I like 3d6 but it really would be hard to do in todays game. I usually do a 3d6+2 or the regular 4d6 drop lowest. I wish stats and magic weren't such a huge part of the game.....so sick of people running around with stats in the mid 20s by 10th level....really breaks my immersion in the game. PCs should be capped at 20 or 22....| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3 pt buy?
That's when you decide against becoming an adventurer and follow in your father's footsteps and take up cheese making. Although with straight 11's your cheese isn't going to be that good.
|
A 1st level cheese-maker can take 10 to receive a 14 on his cheese-making check. It's nothing special, but it's not bad cheese.
so sick of people running around with stats in the mid 20s by 10th level....really breaks my immersion in the game. PCs should be capped at 20 or 22....
Why don't you like powerful heroes?
A 1st level cheese-maker can take 10 to receive a 14 on his cheese-making check. It's nothing special, but it's not bad cheese.
Dude, you're breaking the game.
A 1st level cheese-maker can take 10 to receive a 14 on his cheese-making check. It's nothing special, but it's not bad cheese.
The Cheesemakers Guild will be in contact with you for giving away Guild Secrets. They may contact the Assassins Guild as well. And how dare you point out that average people can make average goods! :D
Don't worry TriOmegaZero! You have the CHEESE on your side.
And everyone knows: "The Cheese Stands Alone!"
I have seen players use the rules especially with point buy make some pure min maxed characters that were great for them but buy the rules broke the game for the GM and the rest of the players. Granted this was in 3.5 D&D. Question! Can you do the dame thing in Pathfinder?Yes.
I'd like to see that. On a 20 point buy, you can barely manage one 18, which already eats 17 of your 20 points, and you can only buy stats down to 7. To get 2 18s you'd have [18,18,8,7,7,7], which isn't particularly good for any class.
Also, crunching the numbers, 3d6 gives between a 3 and 5 point buy, depending on how you price scores below 7. 4d6 gives about 19 points in any case since such scores are much rarer. So a 20 point buy will, on average, be a slightly better deal than rolling 4d6, though there's always someone that will roll really well.
Our group actually used 20 point buy for our next game since it'll be an AP. The time before that we had everyone roll 4d6 then we could all choose whichever of those sets we wanted. (Of course, everyone took the one really good roll. I don't have the numbers on me, but it was probably worth 30+ points.)
TOZ please halt your wrought *faints*