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I don't care to let the dice decide what character I play, which is what 3d6 in order effectively does.
We've most commonly used 4d6 highest three and arrange. Depending on if we want higher power or not, we've increased the dice rolled, or made the static addition higher with less dice. I also prefer point buy when I want to ensure characters are in the same power band.
For my next game however, I plan on using the Big Bang.
Incidentally, the more "old school" or "hardcore" a GM whishes to be, the more min-maxing he risks to elicit among its players. Because character deaths are usually not fun if it occurs because of random kobold #3 or Generic_Deathly_Trap_of_Doom_42 only because of poor stats or ignored WBL (for example), anything that detracts player from the sense of empowerment that is usually assumed to come with the process of gaining levels in Pathfinder will be tempted to play the system to its limit in order to get what he wants (generally, some form of successful character).
+1
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I am a purist. I often like to take rules and systems to their extremes. Therefore if I play with random rolls I want nothing other than 3d6 in order, no rerolls, no choice. Or full point buy, nothing random, nothing restrained. Either give me the oldest of D&D or the newest of Pathfinder or Fourth.
Why is 3d6 the extreme? Why wouldn't stat arrays be extreme since it takes away the choice of PB or the random chance of rolls.
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I am in the process of creating a series of adventures for my gaming group, where the party must first choose a Race, apply ability bonuses, and then roll down the line 3d6 for ability scores (STR, DEX, CON ETC....)
It created some surprising reactions from one of them, something similar to a toddler tantrum.
My goal is to create a open adventure, starting the group off as slaves, with no gear or wealth, where their first task is escaping and then returning across country to their home.
I wouldn't waste your time, or mine, doing something so ridiculous as throwing a tantrum. On the other hand-- since you asked-- with that backdrop and start to the campaign, that method of rolling characters-- even the "must choose race before you roll" bit (which is not really "old school"-- "old school" had you roll your stats, then choose your race-- and maybe not qualify for the race you wanted, if you bombed a couple of rolls in the wrong places)-- I'm not at all interested in the game you're presenting, and I wouldn't play in it. And yes, I would bow out of the gaming group, if that was the game everyone else wanted to play-- and maybe come back when that campaign is over and a new one is started, without these character creation requirements and starting options (sorry, I've done the "start as slaves and need to escape" games too many times-- I'm not interested in that, either).
Typically the group rolls 3d6 plus 6 dropping the lowest. I myself and old school and prefer the randomness of low score characters, finding a way to survive and exist with abilities that may include a strength score of 4 (I include this because one of them actually rolled this stat.)So, I would like to hear from the community.
1. How do you roll your stats and why?
2. Have you ever played with standard 3d6 stat rolls? What is your opinion of it?
1. In PF, it's been point buy for both games I'm in-- one is 25 pts (gets a potent set of characters), one is 20 pts (IMO-- about right). 20 pts, because it's the PFS standard, and produces reasonably capable heroes without getting into ridiculous stats. Personally, I think 15 pts. makes for a rather weak set of heroes (my feeling on that is an awful lot of guys I served with in the military would have been around 15 pts to generate-- and we weren't heroes, just solid 'joes' doing our job-- when I play RPGs, I'd like to play a hero, not feel like I'm a trooper back in the ranks-- YMMV, but that's my impression of it).
I really don't like any of the random die roll methods-- seen way too many occasions where someone's "dice luck" was atrociously bad and either they got stuck with a lousy character, or all kinds of bending and re-rolling had to be done to get them something decent to play; and also have seen more than a few occasions where someone got really hot rolls-- the disparity between characters can also get really annoying. I especially don't like the "organic" roll each stat in order, stick with them as rolled, since I'd prefer to come up with a concept first and then build the character I want to play-- rather than have the dice tell me what I get to play, since no, it really isn't fun to try to play a character of a particular class/concept/type when their stats are completely wrong for that role.
2. Yes, I've played the 3d6 straight up, take 'em as rolled method before (back in 1976, in original D&D), but I haven't been in a game that stuck the players with that method for character creation since AD&D 1 came out, we got a look at the recommended character generation options given on pg 11 of the DMG, and started using them instead. Most of the AD&D/D&D games I've played in that used die rolling methods were some variation on 4D6/Best 3, set them where you like (Method I in the AD&D 1E DMG). Again, since you asked-- I thought "roll 3d6 once for each stat in order, stuck with what you get where you rolled it" sucked then, and my opinion of it is even lower now that we've seen so many other options that are more likely to let you play heroes instead of schmucks.
My further opinion is-- that as a player, I'm just not interested any more in being "challenged" by getting to play a character I dislike and never would have built, because that's what I got for die rolls. I'm also not terribly interested in playing random characters forced on me for some 'tournament style' run or another anymore-- randomly generated, pre-built characters aren't always bad... but in that circumstance, I'd rather have a variety of options presented, and get to pick a character from the choices available that looks like it might be fun, rather than get handed a character chosen for me, that may well be something I'm gonna hate. I'm also definitely not interested in playing a character where I'm getting handed a background and personality notes that I'm supposed to play out, that I didn't have a hand in creating. Did enough of each of these kinds of games back in the day, more than enough of each of them to have grown thoroughly tired of that style of gaming...
If it's the game you enjoy and want to run, and your players want to go along with you-- great, have fun with it, glad it works for you. It wouldn't work for me.
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Someday I want to try a campaign where you roll for your point buy. I have no idea whether or not it would work.
Chivalry & Sorcery (in it's more or less original form, through 2nd edition of it) did this. As I recall, you got (2d6X10)+50 pts to buy your stats-- with some sort of increasing cost per point depending on how high you wanted to raise your stats... not sure where I buried the books, otherwise I'd be willing to look up more of the details for you.
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Go for it! 3d6 is fun! When you only need a 12 stat to get a +1 bonus (what you used to require a 15 or 17 to get in 1st edition), it just works. Certainly challenges have to be toned down (NPCs with PC classes probably shouldn't get the default array most of the time), but this can certainly work.
Since there are a few debating the process, and I knew it would happen, I ask what is the appeal to having higher than average stats. It takes away from the occasionally exceptional rolls. I personally enjoy the randomness of character creation, the challenge of SURVIVING a battle using strategy and teamwork vs supercharged heroes.
Like every other medium of game, encounters and situations are balanced against the characters. A Fighter with half the HP of a wizard is not the balanced ideal that the encounter was designed for.
d20s, d10s, d6s, d8s, etc, there is a good deal of randomness throughout the game. This randomness is equalized at times by how you choose skills and abilities.
At character creation, there is nothing to equalize this. It is literally throw the dice in the air and hope. That plays no part in any strategy or teamwork later on. The characters created using a balanced point system aren't superpowered in anyway, they are balanced for the game. The DM can choose to use smaller than average point buys or higher than aver age point buys.
The two areas the game still uses an archaic method in, are HP and Ability scores. I can't figure out any other medium of game that uses such an insane random way to build a character, and then expect thaat character to be balanced against other characters.
As you say, DND is a game about heroes. When death happens in a game, it should be becasue the heroe made poor tactical or statategic choices, not because 8 months ago at character creation the character rolled a 1 for Hit dice twice and poor ability scores.
I am in the process of creating a series of adventures for my gaming group, where the party must first choose a Race, apply ability bonuses, and then roll down the line 3d6 for ability scores (STR, DEX, CON ETC....)
It created some surprising reactions from one of them, something similar to a toddler tantrum.
My goal is to create a open adventure, starting the group off as slaves, with no gear or wealth, where their first task is escaping and then returning across country to their home.
Typically the group rolls 3d6 plus 6 dropping the lowest. I myself and old school and prefer the randomness of low score characters, finding a way to survive and exist with abilities that may include a strength score of 4 (I include this because one of them actually rolled this stat.)
So, I would like to hear from the community.
1. How do you roll your stats and why?
2. Have you ever played with standard 3d6 stat rolls? What is your opinion of it?
<Also I plan on opening up the trait list, so that they can gain additional traits as the adventures progress. (Ex. When they escape they will all gain the Freed Slave Andoran trait.) They also start with additional traits from their years of slavery - (Ex.Indentured Blacksmith) **** Address this as an additional topic if you would like but do not include this in your statement about ability rolls. *This is not an argument for or against just something I have added, as I wanted to hear a few opinions of it.>
Hey Dean,
After plenty of other rules on rolling, after trying point buy, I am not firmly in the camp of 3d6. I do allow them to be moved around though, and some adjustment. I want the players to actually start with weaknesses and not to be superheroes that are above average in all ability scores at level 1. Quite ridiculous.
However, what I also do, is I keep a track of abilities and slowly have them improve or decrease over time based on what the characters do. Mostly it is like an additional reward system. Using the stat a great deal and not starving or the character being taken out due to horrendous long-term injury will generally lead to an increase. Training can help, being really active helps. Taking days off to go shopping does not really help unless you find a way to use your wits, intelligence and charisma. It improves as the dm sees fit. So that, they don't start high stat heroes but they eventually will be.
when Gygax died we did a tribut game using 3d6 in order. it was...... some of the worst stats of any character I've ever played the only saving grace isn1ed you can survive without stat bonuses as long as you avoid ability checks.
but one of the players had a 9 as his highest stat and only qualified as a fighter.
as a short term campaign it was fun but I wouldn't want to do it for anything long term serious.
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The problem with straight 3d6 is the pure randomness of it. Too much of a chance to have a 'still born' character or run the risk of having one character that overpowers the other ones. If I was to go that route I would have to give them a little incentive to not just want to kill their character and reroll at the first opportunity.
Once the player rolled the character then I would check to see how many 'points' it would take to make that character:
1. If it was less that 10, forget it. The character would be more of a liability to the party than he is worth and to be honest the other players would probably leave him behind. If they really want to stick with their sub-par roll, maybe start them out at lvl 2 or give them a lvl in an NPC class.
2. 10-15, then I would give them a bonus feat to make up for the lack of stats.
3. 15-20, a bonus trait.
4. 20-25 no change.
5. Finally, if they come out over 25 points, I think I would actually give them a flaw that impacts their character [i.e. lame foot so their starting foot speed is -10 or drop their starting feat]. Just to bring them down to earth with the other players.
Yea 3d6 is good for role playing but really hurts roll playing.
Weighing in...
My two coppers? If you are going to run a campaign like the one you mentioned you had better tell the players before they ever sit down to create characters. Meaning, you want to find a group that is on-board with that decision before they are excited to start gaming. If you tell people you're running a Pathfinder homebrew (because starting off with zero wealth or equipment is not RAW) but don't tell them that you are going to be using 3d6 down the line, no reroll you are doing everyone a disservice. My guess is that if you had advertised this you would have ended up with a very small group that was actually excited about it. Springing it on a group that has never done that, imho, is poor form.
Now, how do my groups normally roll? 2d6+6, roll three separate arrays. Pick the best array and assign to stats as desired. It usually ends up being pretty close to a 20 point buy, with a few exceptions here and there. I've found that with this set up players get a set of stats they are happy with, and characters are built to be "heroic" in mechanics.
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I balanced the 3d6 gen, by allowing the stats to be moved around and not in order, and by making it that the lowest would rise in abilities the quickest. So yeah, one guy did have better stats, but he didn't grow as quick as the others. Top of their game versus up and comers as in something like boxing.
I sure do agree with Clifford and I want to add one more thing about the term 'heroic':
Heroes are not determined by their stats.
In my last game I did 4d6 drop the lowest OR a 15 point buy, the players had to choose before rolling. I miss some of the randomness of dice rolling, but I do let them put the scores as they choose (so they can still in theory play the character they want to play).
I think rolling 3d6 in order and especially choosing a race prior to rolling stats is far to brutal a stat generation and I simply wouldn't play in such a campaign. I have no problem with a low power game, or a low wealth game, but I dont like being backed into a corner in terms of my choice of character concept.
I dont see anything fun about trying to play a wizard with an 8 int (also known as a commoner). And I dont need to be a super hero but I want my character to be good at whatever it is they do, be it casting spells, fighting, picking locks whatever, I like competant characters. I dont have an interest in roleplaying the incompetant fool.
@3.5 Loyalist - Heroes are not determined by their stats, but they still have to have some stand out abilities to actually be heroes. The fighter will not fend off the orc raiding party while the villagers escape with a 7 str, 6 con and 6 dex. It simply will not happen. The wizard with an 8 int will do nothing to stop the evil overlord from taking over the world. And the paladin with 5 str and 7 charisma isn't going to be doing a whole heck of alot when he tries to smite the big bad liche.
As a player I can see the appeal of rolling 3d6, but honestly only because of how you described the game you intend on running. Slaves on the run? Dang straight they should have lowish stats. Awarding traits as rewards at regular intervals? Badass!
In general, though, I agree with some of the posts on here - The randomness of dice rolling is appealing the same way roulette is appealing. I might get three 18's and nothing below a 14! ...Or i might end up with something worse than a commoner...
Someone (I wish the internet at work was faster so i could go back and quote them) mentioned a 15 point buy, but doubling the attribute bonus at every fourth level from +1 to one attribute to +1 to two attributes. This is really similair to how stat increases work in Saga Edition star wars (a system that I really enjoy).
Currently I do a 20 point buy, but my next forray as a GM will see me using the 15 PB +2 attributes as listed above.
My solution after struggling with the issue of randomness vs. min-maxing is a set of cards. Take the clubs and hearts 4-9, shuffle, draw two cards per stat. This will guarantee a similar power level but stats are still random enough.
After running the numbers a bit I decided to change one 8 into a 5 though, since it runs a little lower in PB equivalent score.
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I have used so many character creation methods over the last 33 years I couldn't list them all.
Point buy has the most merits in PF but our next campaign will be 4d6 drop lowest and sort. This was decided as a group.
The oddest I have used but was quite fun was start with all 15s. Then choose a race and reduce any score without racial bonus by 2.
Our group normally always uses 15 PB
for this campaign we are useing 20 PB however no stat can be over 18 or under 10 after racial mods.
Seems to work fairly well, tho I still would prefer 15 PB
I've yet to find an ability generation method I like. I love the randomness of dice, don't get me wrong, I tend to flip flop in games between too weak or too powerful with 4d6 drop lowest assign how ya like. Then with point buy I've got the problem in my typical gaming circle of almost everyone wants to munchkin (the extreme min-max version of the term) in an attempt to beat the game since they are presented with the opportunity via point buy (they never do that when it's dice).
I've been considering a form of ability generation tied to leveling I'm trying to work the kinks out. All stats start at 10. You get +1 ability point to add every level, on the levels that you would normally gain ability points (4, 8, 12, so on), you gain +2 ability points instead. Given the min-maxing capability of it I'm trying to figure out a way to ensure the min-max doesn't happen too fast, if at all. I care much less what happens at level 20 than 1-10 (when they would have gained... +14 ability points to spend).
This of course is set up for a rather low-powered campaign, one I would probably be using some ideas in Kolokotroni's end-of-magic-item-dependency thread. Considering i set my worlds up as dynamically as possible, believe in roleplaying and story-driven gameplay more than combat and miniatures games, and run the game in a very cinematic style via Rule of Cool/Rule of Funny and love it when the story engages people... Well, I have a firm belief that risk of death should always be there, makes combat much more rewarding.
I am thinking if you want to roll dice maybe something like a choice between 15 point buy or 13 +1d4 point buy or if I was making a 20 point game equivlent 20 points or 18+1d4 point buy. It is only a few points difference should not cause that much disparity. One very dominant character is not that fun.
Well I am The player that threw the tantrum and I have to admit im a power gamer at heart (but I try to kill players all the time with their powerful characters)
Im a big believer of why the hell would this person become and adventurer but like he said we arent adventurers we are slaves going escape and work our way home
Im going to give it a try with my cleric with an 18 Con 14 wis and like a 7 str I think the rogue has a 6 LOL
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I like to think up a character that *I* want to play, and having stats that shoehorn me into a different role starts the game off on the wrong foot for me.
My first (and only) Call of Cthulhu game went that way. I wanted to play a bookish nerd like the typical character from a Lovecraft novel, and I rolled a very strong guy who could barely tie his own shoelaces.
Yeah. Cause being able to *punch stuff really hard* is gonna help in a Call of Cthulhu game. You go into the game expecting to die, but being the beefy moron who fails his first San check and flees before ever getting to take an action is friggin' lame.
I'm sure Call of Cthulhu *can* be a fun game, but being forced to roll random stats ruined it (not just for me, but everyone else at the table as well), and I never went back.
We did have a house rule, back in the day, that if I rolled a character who didn't have a Str 9+, Dex 9+, Int 9+ or Wis 9+, and therefore didn't qualify to be *any* character class from the 1st edition Player's Handbook, I was allowed to reroll. And yes, that rule was invented because I rolled that very thing. Twice! Gosh. So generous. Hold my tea, I feel faint.
I'm not adverse to low-power games. I've played and enjoyed GURPS games with 25 CP characters (a game where a heroic fantasy character was 100 CP in 2nd and 3rd edition, and has bloated to a completely uncalled-for 150 CP in 4th edition, I've heard), games like We Be Goblins or Reverse Dungeon where the 'party' aren't quite ready for prime-time-players, or a 10 or 15 point buy game standard game.
But if my character is 10 pt buy, and someone else's randomly generated character is, I'm not exagerrating, *44* point buy, I'm outta there, and I'm taking my soda and pizza with me. That's not 'fun' for me, that's horsecrap.
There's too many books I haven't read, too many rivers I've yet to kayak, too much stuff in my head that I haven't written down, too many trails I've yet to hike, too many MMO characters I haven't played, too many places I haven't been and *entirely* too much stuff in my Netflix and Hulu queues for me to hang around what is guaranteed to be a frustrating gaming experience.
I've yet to find an ability generation method I like. I love the randomness of dice, don't get me wrong, I tend to flip flop in games between too weak or too powerful with 4d6 drop lowest assign how ya like. Then with point buy I've got the problem in my typical gaming circle of almost everyone wants to munchkin (the extreme min-max version of the term) in an attempt to beat the game since they are presented with the opportunity via point buy (they never do that when it's dice).
I've been considering a form of ability generation tied to leveling I'm trying to work the kinks out. All stats start at 10. You get +1 ability point to add every level, on the levels that you would normally gain ability points (4, 8, 12, so on), you gain +2 ability points instead. Given the min-maxing capability of it I'm trying to figure out a way to ensure the min-max doesn't happen too fast, if at all. I care much less what happens at level 20 than 1-10 (when they would have gained... +14 ability points to spend).
This of course is set up for a rather low-powered campaign, one I would probably be using some ideas in Kolokotroni's end-of-magic-item-dependency thread. Considering i set my worlds up as dynamically as possible, believe in roleplaying and story-driven gameplay more than combat and miniatures games, and run the game in a very cinematic style via Rule of Cool/Rule of Funny and love it when the story engages people... Well, I have a firm belief that risk of death should always be there, makes combat much more rewarding.
I know how you feel with wanting the randomness of dice but the balance of point buy. Give 2d6+5 a try. I've found it has a much lower power disparity than 3d6 and 4d6 but you still can get some great scores. I've only had to have one person reroll an ability score since using it, but that's not bad considering people getting whole stats of uselessness.
Also, you can try the Xd4 method someone had previously in this topic. He even had the links to the probability curves of 3d6, 4d6 drop, 5d4 drop +2, 2d6+5, and 4d4+2. Give it a try, I say.
Well I've been playing D&D since the late 70's and all of its incarnations since and I find that the best way to roll is the way the players want to roll--if everyone wants powerful characters go for the 3d6+6(sans lowest) for a start, if they want gritty realism go for the straight 3d6, if everyone wants balanced characters do the point buy.
As this sounds like your idea, my suggestion is to explain to your players WHY you want to do this...is it for an experiment? Something new? A revist of old gaming days? Communicate your desires to your players and see if this fits with what they want to do: I can say that there is nothing worse than running a game where the players are all pissed off because their characters are not fun for them to play.
I just started a d20 modern game where I had the players roll 2 sets of 3d6 and had them pick the best set--this really helps remove the rare occassion where you have someone roll a 6/9/11/4/5/9. Then I had the guys put the stats where they want and then the option to move 1 point from one stat to the next--this gives the player a little leeway in shaping their character. Going straight rolls to stats is rarely a good idea because no one wants to be forced into playing a PC with a 4 Str. and a 5 Dex. with a 16 Con. and an 15 Chr. (although maybe I would).
Normally I'm a 4d6/toss the lowest die; again with 2 sets to create a sense of randomness but keeping the characters powerful. I understand some GMs worry at having one character with 3 18s and the next guy with the highest stat being a 14--but in all the games I've run I find the jealousy wears off quickly and the players accept the character they've made and do what they can to make him/her/it better.
I've done plenty of one-off games using a speedy system where character creation is 1 set of 3d6 and players get 15 minutes to crank out a guy with me handing them a pre-determined list of equipment. In a couple of occasions those have turned into 10-12 session games because the players really loved the characters. My fave PC being a fighter named Joe Average who had a 12 Str. an 11 Con. and the other four stats being 10s.
As my avatar name suggests, I have been a hardassed bastard of a GM but in the end it really is about the players so don't make the mistake of alienating them!
Cheers & Good Luck--would love to hear how it turns out!
ED
We play with 25 Point-buy. We have fun that way.
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Here's the output of what I just rolled; 3d6, in order.
10
6
9
11
11
10
I don't want to play this array, but if you do then be my guest.
We play with 25 Point-buy. We have fun that way.
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VHere's the output of what I just rolled; 3d6, in order.
10
6
9
11
11
10I don't want to play this array, but if you do then be my guest.
6 Dexterity? That's a -2 modifier to ranged attacks. Awesome! Good luck hitting anything with that shortbow.
6 Dexterity? That's a -2 modifier to ranged attacks. Awesome! Good luck hitting anything with that shortbow.
I figure you could probably lobby to make it a 7, seeing as how that's the minimum value that is allowed via Point Buy
I added 3 to each stat and went from a -3pb to an 18pb.
13
10
12
14
14
13
That's nothing to write home about, but it's definitely playable. The -3 array just wouldn't be fun, for me I mean.
Way back when I first started we used 3d6 in order. Horrible characters resulted along with unhappy players. Then we used 4d6 drop lowest and pick the order. Much better. We lived with that for a long time.
Eventually I (as the DM) got tired of the wild swings in attribute scores from randomly rolling stats and came up with a point buy system. I allowed 75 points and your 6 ability scores had to total to 75. Nothing above an 18 (prior to racial adjustments) and nothing below a 8 I think (prior to racial adjustments).
Once the established point buy systems came out (3e?) we switched to them and haven't looked back. Everyone has a level playing field and yet there is still the randomness of rolling hit points every level to put the fear of dice into the players (do my dice love me or hate me today?!?). Works well for us.
The problem with straight 3d6 is the pure randomness of it. Too much of a chance to have a 'still born' character or run the risk of having one character that overpowers the other ones. If I was to go that route I would have to give them a little incentive to not just want to kill their character and reroll at the first opportunity.
Once the player rolled the character then I would check to see how many 'points' it would take to make that character:
1. If it was less that 10, forget it. The character would be more of a liability to the party than he is worth and to be honest the other players would probably leave him behind. If they really want to stick with their sub-par roll, maybe start them out at lvl 2 or give them a lvl in an NPC class.
2. 10-15, then I would give them a bonus feat to make up for the lack of stats.
3. 15-20, a bonus trait.
4. 20-25 no change.
5. Finally, if they come out over 25 points, I think I would actually give them a flaw that impacts their character [i.e. lame foot so their starting foot speed is -10 or drop their starting feat]. Just to bring them down to earth with the other players.Yea 3d6 is good for role playing but really hurts roll playing.
This sounds really good, thanks Tcliff
I am really enjoying the ideas thrown out there. And the opinions of others, without people going back and forth arguing, or putting down ideas.
The whole reason I started this was to hear ways to improve the format for my future Character generation adventures. I liked Tcliffs idea, and the 2+4d4 for additional randomness with post creation balancing and a method that limited the minimums to 6.
The idea of my adventure came from playing with a DM that is a power gamer, that gives me crap for picking random dance perform for a characters skills when there is no chance for using it. Its the same group of friends that I play with, that roll multiple games (icon, mutant and masterminds, Dark heresy, star wars, etc.) So, it was feasible to surprise them with the character format, telling them to take it and like it, lol. The plan is to take these characters from level 1 to 18-20 over the next XXmonths/years. Once in a while they will get the call to break out the losers. I also recently joked with one of them that the ranger cannot die as the other two have strength of 4 and 7, and won't be able to carry him anywhere.
And there is nothing wrong with any of the systems listed (except for that one on page one, that was just wacky).
So, again thanks to everyone. If anyone is interested in seeing how the adventure works out feel free to PM me.
Also I am starting a new thread, to get ideas on how to carry out an organized war, putting these same characters in the front lines of a mass battle. Would like the same additional input on good ways to keep track of the battle, and to let the battle develop organically rather than be predetermined.
Thanks,
Dean
The only time I roll in order is when I'm stuck for a character idea. Then I use a method... 5?... where you are allowed either one re-roll (keeping the result) or a stat swap. For example of you were wanted to play a Wizard but a Cha of 18 and Int of 4 you could either choose to reroll the Int or swap it for the Cha score. Again that's what I use when I'm stuck for an idea, not if actually have the taste to play a particular character.
We used to used 3d6, place them as you will in 2e but by the time 3e came around my group was down with 4d6 drop the lowest. Overall my group did not like point buy partly because they were actually a fairly lucky bunch (except me) and go higher then average results (no cheating, I watched for that).
Out of all the ways I've seen to handle the "you start as nothing more then common slaves" would be to use a lower point buy (15 or 20) and use Traits to help players link their characters to the plot.
I am really enjoying the ideas thrown out there. And the opinions of others, without people going back and forth arguing, or putting down ideas.
The whole reason I started this was to hear ways to improve the format for my future Character generation adventures. I liked Tcliffs idea, and the 2+4d4 for additional randomness with post creation balancing and a method that limited the minimums to 6.
The idea of my adventure came from playing with a DM that is a power gamer, that gives me crap for picking random dance perform for a characters skills when there is no chance for using it. Its the same group of friends that I play with, that roll multiple games (icon, mutant and masterminds, Dark heresy, star wars, etc.) So, it was feasible to surprise them with the character format, telling them to take it and like it, lol. The plan is to take these characters from level 1 to 18-20 over the next XXmonths/years. Once in a while they will get the call to break out the losers. I also recently joked with one of them that the ranger cannot die as the other two have strength of 4 and 7, and won't be able to carry him anywhere.
And there is nothing wrong with any of the systems listed (except for that one on page one, that was just wacky).
So, again thanks to everyone. If anyone is interested in seeing how the adventure works out feel free to PM me.
Also I am starting a new thread, to get ideas on how to carry out an organized war, putting these same characters in the front lines of a mass battle. Would like the same additional input on good ways to keep track of the battle, and to let the battle develop organically rather than be predetermined.
Thanks,
Dean
As an idea for starting people off as slaves here is an idea. If you are okay with third party publishers, Super Genius Games has a book called The Genius Guide to Apprentice-Level Characters which has rules for playing classes at 'level 0', essentially only getting half of your hit points and class abilities. I've been wanting to do this for awhile now, along with players roleplaying as child/teen characters just getting out in the world and taking on what they can. Might be something you'd like to look at.
Also, for Mass Combat rules, look at the fifth Kingmaker Adventuer Path (War of the River Kings) for rules pertaining to armies.
Hope it helps.
My group and I have found a lot of satisfaction with using a stat rolling technique from Conan 2nd ed. (Mongoose) where you use the base number 8 and roll a d10. Takes out the real bad "suck" numbers and still gives that chance for a high stat roll joy feeling
If you want to introduce some randomness while keeping things balanced, here is an idea:
Determine a point buy goal. You have that many points to spend on ability scores.
For the first ability score, roll whatever dice you like -- anything that generates a result between no less than 7 and no more than 18. So you could roll take a base value of anywhere from 6 to 14 and add the roll of a d4 to it, or you could take a base value of 5 or 6 and add the roll of 2d6 to it. Whatever you end up with, that is the value of one of your ability scores. Then you roll a d6 to determine which ability gets that score.
Adjust the point buy goal to determine what you have left to spend, and keep that value in mind when choosing the next die or dice combination to roll. Roll the second value, then randomly pick one of the remaining abilities to get that score.
Keep going until you have rolled 5 of your ability scores. Assign the last ability score whatever value your remaining point buy total indicates. If the point value does not come out exactly right, randomly determine which ability score needs to be tweaked a point up or down to make things come out right.
Voila! You have generated a character with completely random but balanced ability scores.
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Just be a druid or a summoner. Your pet has better stats a higher charisma and can probably take the rest of the party.
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I find that a point but allows you to make essentially the character you really really want, but it DOES seem to take away from the whole "old school" feel that I grew up with. *cue dramatic and crabby old man voice "when I was your age, I walked up hill 2 miles in the snow to roll my 3d6 no drop no rerolls and we LIKD IT!"
The problem with point buy I feel is the whole dump stat idea. Some dude shows up with an INT of 8. Man, thats essentially borderline retarded, and frankly thats just dumb because the player will have an impossible time playing that the way it actually should be represented. Plus, how many of us have seen the Dwarven fighter with his -2 to CHA, dumpstatted to 8 then the -2 mod to a 6. "Well, I'm just EXTRA grumpy!" is the rationale....but that sucks. I hate it.
I prefer a dice roll with the static add to it...2d6+6, or 10+1d8. Its not out of the realm of possibility to get more than a single 18, but its not likely to see more than 2. Then add racial mods, and be done with it.
I too prefer a more epic feel, and higher statted characters help with that. Also, several in my group like MAD characters, and the higher rolled stats help.
TL;DR : I hate dump stats, I like point buys, I prefer rolling and adding a static number.
Str 11 1
Dex 7 -4
Con 9 -1
Int 9 -1
Wis 15 7
Cha 8 -2
0 point buy lol.
I like to think up a character that *I* want to play, and having stats that shoehorn me into a different role starts the game off on the wrong foot for me.
My first (and only) Call of Cthulhu game went that way. I wanted to play a bookish nerd like the typical character from a Lovecraft novel, and I rolled a very strong guy who could barely tie his own shoelaces.
Yeah. Cause being able to *punch stuff really hard* is gonna help in a Call of Cthulhu game. You go into the game expecting to die, but being the beefy moron who fails his first San check and flees before ever getting to take an action is friggin' lame.
I'm sure Call of Cthulhu *can* be a fun game, but being forced to roll random stats ruined it (not just for me, but everyone else at the table as well), and I never went back.
We did have a house rule, back in the day, that if I rolled a character who didn't have a Str 9+, Dex 9+, Int 9+ or Wis 9+, and therefore didn't qualify to be *any* character class from the 1st edition Player's Handbook, I was allowed to reroll. And yes, that rule was invented because I rolled that very thing. Twice! Gosh. So generous. Hold my tea, I feel faint.
I'm not adverse to low-power games. I've played and enjoyed GURPS games with 25 CP characters (a game where a heroic fantasy character was 100 CP in 2nd and 3rd edition, and has bloated to a completely uncalled-for 150 CP in 4th edition, I've heard), games like We Be Goblins or Reverse Dungeon where the 'party' aren't quite ready for prime-time-players, or a 10 or 15 point buy game standard game.
But if my character is 10 pt buy, and someone else's randomly generated character is, I'm not exagerrating, *44* point buy, I'm outta there, and I'm taking my soda and pizza with me. That's not 'fun' for me, that's horsecrap.
There's too many books I haven't read, too many rivers I've yet to kayak, too much stuff in my head that I haven't written down, too many trails I've yet to hike, too many MMO characters I...
The worst example of this I can impart, it was some system I had never heard about before. Post-apoc (yawn) and most of the players were mutants, no classes and completely random abilities. There were some stats and they wouldn't from what I could tell, really end up awful, but the mutations or lack of them were completely random. Wanted to be a specific type of mutant? Nope. You must roll, and play that.
I rolled a dwarf woman with stunted fat legs, with oddly coloured skin, electric eel abilities and the personality of "a%%!+$@". Worst character gen I've ever seen.
On the 3d6, I've seen it go a bit south, and then you just roll it again. Having some flexibility in moving them around allows concepts to be fulfilled. At first some players really complained about the low stats, whine whine whine, but then as they realised 14 is no longer the average stat, they could accept their strengths and weaknesses.
