|
37 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
7 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I have a serious issue with the threads I've read about black blade enhancement.
Everyone seems to say you can't permanently add to the enhancement of your black blade (i.e. through craft magic arms).
From what I've read of the acquisition of the Black Blade there is nothing saying that the blade can't be a magic weapon to begin with, or even that it can't be an heirloom weapon.
"A black blade is a particular form of intelligent weapon gained by a magus with the bladebound archetype. There are several ways a magus might gain this weapon. Sometimes it just appears among the magus’s possessions, and its origin is a mystery. Other times the magus finds a black blade during an adventure or event of some kind. Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential."
From the Magus rules: "At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal."
This is virtually identical to the paladin's Divine Bond:
"These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed."
and finally, from the magic weapon section:
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
From this I can conclude the following:
1) A magus can receive his black blade at 1st level as an heirloom weapon, but the black blade powers do not "manifest" until the the character is sufficiently powerful (i.e. level 3). Until level 3 it is, for all intents and purposes, a normal weapon.
2) A magus can find his (or her or it's) black blade in a pile of treasure. Therefore the black blade itself is an item and is independent of the class ability that grants the weapon additional powers and abilities.
3) If the black blade has permanent enhancement(s) the magus cannot use the class ability to enhance the black blade past the +10 enhancement restriction. The enhancements are temporary enhancements granted by the class ability and therefore do not violate the +10 cap. This may mean that a magus cannot choose one of the special abilities (e.g. a magus that has a permanently enchanted +1 Brilliant Energy black blade can never choose Vorpal as this would create a +11 weapon, even if it is temporary)
4) A Magus can further permanently enchant the Black Blade, so long as the +10 cap is not violated. While this might require getting the blade itself to agree, as long as it is beneficial to the sword's ultimate goal. ("Hey Mr. Black Blade, I know you hate Demons so would you mind if I enchanted you with Holy and Bane (Demons)?")
The idea that "the rules don't explicitly say you can so you can't" is always overidden by ultimate pathfinder rule that the "rules" in the book are "guidelines".
On a slight tangent there is no mention if the black blade can be made of a special material. Is it so crazy that an elven magus inherits his father's mithril longsword and that for millenia the family has been trying to unlock to full potential of the sword?
Does this make sense? I'm no expert but this seems to follow the rules and more importantly the spirit of what a Black Blade is supposed to be.
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
The Black Blade is not classed as either a magic or mundane item, it is a class feature (and is described in it's description as such), more like a familiar than anything else, and thus cannot be further enchanted. When it is being described as being found as part of treasure that is merely to give an RP reason to how and why they have it, background purposes only.
It was supposed to be augmented by a Magus via their Arcane Pool ability. There is one other way it can be enhanced, it is called "Gaining more Magus levels" that is the only way.
The Black Blade can’t be changed from the stats listed in the progression chart. The Black Blade’s charted enhancement bonus can’t be reallocated to special abilities like flaming or keen. Eventually the weapon will have a +5 enhancement bonus and the Arcane Pool will make it equivalent to a +10 weapon.
What this means is that at level 3-4 the Black Blade has a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can use Arcane Pool to increase it to a +2 weapon. At level 5-6 the weapon is +2 and you have a +2 bonus from your Arcane Pool to build a +4 equivalent weapon. This means you could have a +4 weapon, a +3 Keen weapon, or a +2 Flaming Burst weapon. You could not make the weapon a +1 Keen Flaming Burst weapon, since you couldn’t use the weapon’s enhancement bonus to add special abilites.
The GM is free to make the Black Blade whatever they want in a home game. In something like Pathfinder Society you would acquire the steel weapon at 3rd level, which would not make it eligible to be spawned from an heirloom weapon.
The lack of it being made of special material isn’t a major setback. At level 5 you can make it a +4 weapon with Arcane Pool. At this point it bypasses Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR. At 9th level you could make the Black Blade a +5 weapon which bypasses Alignment based DR.
There are also several Magus Arcana that allow you to add additional special abilities, such as Holy and Bane, to the options for your Arcane Pool.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote: The Black Blade is not classed as either a magic or mundane item, it is a class feature (and is described in it's description as such), more like a familiar than anything else, and thus cannot be further enchanted. When it is being described as being found as part of treasure that is merely to give an RP reason to how and why they have it, background purposes only.
It was supposed to be augmented by a Magus via their Arcane Pool ability. There is one other way it can be enhanced, it is called "Gaining more Magus levels" that is the only way.
It's a class feature that grants a weapon. The actual wording is very clear.
"the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade..."
Following your logic that the Black Blade is similar to the Wizard Bonded Item class feature (and I agree) you find this in the Wizard class description:
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat)."
So not only can a wizard can further enchant their bonded item, they can do it without even needing to acquire any crafting feats! (Not a class feature of the Bladebound Magus however)
Similarly, the paladin's Divine Bond with a weapon also allows additional enchantments to the bonded weapon.
so...I don't see the issue. However, I agree the Bladebound Magus' black blade is more like the bonded item for a wizard than the paladin's Divine Bond.
It just seems like people are hung up on a the idea that a class feature is not an actual "thing", rather than seeing it as a class feature that grants an item. If the other classes that have bonded item class features can add additional enchantments to their item, why would a class that is built around dedicating themselves to their bonded item be restricted? It's not a "game balance" issue either since the +10 cap is still in effect and there are TONS of examples of spells that temporarily affect magic items.
boded object is a class feature, it specifically calls out a wizard can further enhance it.
black blade is a class feature. it lacks any such language to say it can be further enhanced
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote: The Black Blade can’t be changed from the stats listed in the progression chart. The Black Blade’s charted enhancement bonus can’t be reallocated to special abilities like flaming or keen. Eventually the weapon will have a +5 enhancement bonus and the Arcane Pool will make it equivalent to a +10 weapon.
What this means is that at level 3-4 the Black Blade has a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can use Arcane Pool to increase it to a +2 weapon. At level 5-6 the weapon is +2 and you have a +2 bonus from your Arcane Pool to build a +4 equivalent weapon. This means you could have a +4 weapon, a +3 Keen weapon, or a +2 Flaming Burst weapon. You could not make the weapon a +1 Keen Flaming Burst weapon, since you couldn’t use the weapon’s enhancement bonus to add special abilites.
The GM is free to make the Black Blade whatever they want in a home game. In something like Pathfinder Society you would acquire the steel weapon at 3rd level, which would not make it eligible to be spawned from an heirloom weapon.
The lack of it being made of special material isn’t a major setback. At level 5 you can make it a +4 weapon with Arcane Pool. At this point it bypasses Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR. At 9th level you could make the Black Blade a +5 weapon which bypasses Alignment based DR.
There are also several Magus Arcana that allow you to add additional special abilities, such as Holy and Bane, to the options for your Arcane Pool.
The Arcane Pool can give it a up to a +5 enhancement bonus, and it's a temporary variable enhancement so there is no reason to even count it against the permanent enhancement cap. Just like you couldn't cast Magic Weapon on a weapon with a +10 enhancement bonus, you couldn't use your Arcane Pool to enhance the weapon past a total +10 enhancement.
The special material is more of a RP flavor piece anyway, and it was just another example. I'm not talking about PFS rules as they are more restrictive than the regular game rules. Since the rules specifically say it can be passed down from generation to generation in non PFS play I'd say it's fine to have it as a non-magical heirloom until level 3 (just don't get it sundered!)
I'll start off and say I don't know much about Intelligent Magic Items, but it seems clear that the Black Blade is considered both an Intelligent Magic Item and a Familiar.
PRD - Ultimate Magic - Magus Options - Bladebound wrote: Black Blade (Ex): At 3rd level, the bladebound magus' gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus. A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class. This makes it tricky for enhancement, but from what I'm reading here it seems possible - but extremely unclear.
I do not see why you could not have the item your possession, then the black blade powers would "awaken". Does an item fly into the window at level 3? Seems a little contrived.
Name Violation wrote: boded object is a class feature, it specifically calls out a wizard can further enhance it.
black blade is a class feature. it lacks any such language to say it can be further enhanced
The wizard class feature is mentioned because the class feature allows a wizard to enchant their bonded item without needing any crafting feats.
The magus class feature doesn't need to mention anything special because the class feature grants a weapon and the rules for enchanting weapons are already established. The magus still needs to have the crafting feat if they want to do it themselves.
Here's another example of why I think that not allowing black blade enchantment is overly restrictive and against the spirit of the class.
Lots of people take the bladebound kensai with Dervish Dance and Scimitar because it's the only way of doing dex damage instead of strength damage if the black blade can't be enchanted
Let's take an Aldori Bladebound Kensai who picks the Aldori Dueling Sword as his Black Blade. He continues along the feat path and enchants his Black Blade with the Agile special ability (+1, PFSFG). The Aldori Dueling Kensei is absolutely within the spirit of the class, so the rules should be interpreted in favor of creating such a character
As interpreted, no Magus can ever have an Agile blade because it's not among the listed abilities. There are tons of abilities and new ones every book that the magus can't use if the list is restricted to only the ones granted by a class power in the class description.
This restriction violates the spirit of the game itself that allows people to create unique characters (so long as they are not abusing the rules). I see no abuse for making a Aldori Dueling Magus that spends +1 enhancement bonus instead of a Dervish Magus of Serenrae that spends a feat.
Most Magi can get the crafting feats and improve their weapons. Paladins can do the same thing, or have an allied spellcaster do it for them. Neither Arcane Pool nor Divine Bond can take a weapon past +10. The Black Blade specifically can’t be modified.
The Black Blade is a unique quasi artifact-like item that has a defined power progression charted out, with no rules allowing that progression to be altered.
The weapon teams up with the Magus at level 3. The fluff text doesn’t mention that it can be a normal weapon that spontaneously manifests magical powers. The handed down from a relative just means that the magic weapon has been in your family for generations, and at 3rd level is passed on to you.
Now in a Home game the GM can alter anything they want to fit into their campaign world. If they want a piercing weapon or blunt weapon as a Black Blade they can. If they want the weapon to made of a special material they can. If they want a mundane heirloom weapon to spontaneously manifest powers then they can. If they want to allow the weapon to be modified outside of the progression chart, they can. But none of these are within the RAW, or from what little developer imput from these threads the RAI, of the Black Blade.
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote: Most Magi can get the crafting feats and improve their weapons. Paladins can do the same thing, or have an allied spellcaster do it for them. Neither Arcane Pool nor Divine Bond can take a weapon past +10. The Black Blade specifically can’t be modified.
The Black Blade is a unique quasi artifact-like item that has a defined power progression charted out, with no rules allowing that progression to be altered.
The weapon teams up with the Magus at level 3. The fluff text doesn’t mention that it can be a normal weapon that spontaneously manifests magical powers. The handed down from a relative just means that the magic weapon has been in your family for generations, and at 3rd level is passed on to you.
Now in a Home game the GM can alter anything they want to fit into their campaign world. If they want a piercing weapon or blunt weapon as a Black Blade they can. If they want the weapon to made of a special material they can. If they want a mundane heirloom weapon to spontaneously manifest powers then they can. If they want to allow the weapon to be modified outside of the progression chart, they can. But none of these are within the RAW, or from what little developer imput from these threads the RAI, of the Black Blade.
I don't see the two sets of rules for intelligent items as being in conflict. The progression of the black black uses Table: Black Blade Progression to determine Ego, the magical enhancement would use the Table: Base Magic Item Value and Ego Modifier. The key here is that the gp value adds a modifier not an ego score to the weapon.
Thus, if a black blade with an ego of 5 gets an enhancement worth 2000gp, the black blade's ego would be bumped up to 6. This is identical to the base ability stat progression of +1 every 4 levels. You can still use manuals (or other methods) to bump the stat permanently.
The key sticking point is that the Black Blade is not being treated as a weapon despite the use of the word weapon in the class ability description. Since it is a weapon the rules on adding new abilities are unambiguous.
"Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place."
Since someone (or something) created the Black Blade as a magic weapon at some point, this rule would apply.
Also, as far as the intelligent item goes the rules have this to say:
"Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent."
If they are to be treated as NPCs and only permanent magic items can be intelligent then they should be able to be enchanted since they are (as NPCs) independent of the Magus and their class abilities and (as permanent magic items) subject to the rule for adding new abilities.
I'd love to hear from the developers as the description of the rules on Black Blades are 'mushy'. Since I've only found examples that support being able to enchant the black blade (i.e. the wizard bonded item, etc.) I'd also like to know if anyone has come across any examples of something like the black blade where it says specifically the item can not be further enchanted (or other restrictions). Is there a link to any developer comments on the black blade that I can read that might help clarify?
The central issue here is can you further enchant an Intelligent Magic Item? If yes, I'm not seeing any language that differentiates Black Blade from some other intelligent weapon.
Stynkk wrote: The central issue here is can you further enchant an Intelligent Magic Item? If yes, I'm not seeing any language that differentiates Black Blade from some other intelligent weapon. The answer to that is "yes", you can further enchant intelligent magic items, although for RP (and even game balance) I'd make the PC have to convince the intelligent item it wants the enchantment and possibly even trigger a battle of wills if it's not what the weapon wants.
Intelligent Items built using the design rules from the CRB can be modified. The Black Blade has a static progression chart detailing its abilities.
A wizard’s Bonded Object specifically states it can be modified using crafting feats. Arcane Pool and Divine Bond says it boosts an existing weapon. The Black Blade’s description tells you to refer to the chart to determine its stats and powers. No where in this description does it give you formulas or options for altering what is listed in the chart provided.
The Ego Score of an intelligent item varies depending on its stats and gp value. Since the Ego score in the Black Blade’s chart is a set value and not a calculation to determine the total ego, you can not do anything to the weapon that would alter the value in the chart.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Here's a thinker to add to the discussion:
Say I have a Soul Forger Bladebound Magus. At 1st level, he picks his favorite weapon to be his bonded weapon. At 3rd level, he acquires his black blade. He then chooses to apply his Arcane Bond ability to his black blade.
So, he can use the blade to cast a spell 1/day, can auto-repair any damage when he memorizes spells, and can boost the hardness/hp of his black blade . . . but can't improve it. Saaaad panda.
Virtua Monk wrote: I don't see the two sets of rules for intelligent items as being in conflict. The progression of the black black uses Table: Black Blade Progression to determine Ego, the magical enhancement would use the Table: Base Magic Item Value and Ego Modifier. The key here is that the gp value adds a modifier not an ego score to the weapon.
Thus, if a black blade with an ego of 5 gets an enhancement worth 2000gp, the black blade's ego would be bumped up to 6. This is identical to the base ability stat progression of +1 every 4 levels. You can still use manuals (or other methods) to bump the stat permanently.
The problem with this line of thought is: What's the base value for a black blade? If it's worth 0gp, adding a +1 enchant for 2000gp would give it a +1. But if the base value is 10,000, adding a +1 enchant for 2000gp won't have any effect on the ego.
Intelligent magic item stats also start at 10/10/10, and go up to 20 from there, gaining a point of ego for each point of stat modifier. But the Black Blade starts at 11/7/7, which is flat out impossible under the intelligent item rules (and should provide a -4 ego modifer). Two levels later, it's at 12/8/8, which should grant +3 ego over where it started, and it does... but that means that the Energy attunement ability doesn't provide any ego. But two levels later, it goes up to 13/9/9, which shouldn't grant any ego, but it gains two more. So, to quote it: "Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression."
This means you can't apply any standard ego modifiers to it. They don't behave normally. There are no rules for how to modify the ego if you add any of the usual intelligent item properties. There are no rules for how to modify the ego if you add any other weapon properties. Therefore, there's only two possible conclusions:
1) Modifying a black blade does not affect it's ego at all.
2) Modifying a black blade is not possible.
The first is absurd. That leaves only the second option as a reasonable conclusion.
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote: Intelligent Items built using the design rules from the CRB can be modified. The Black Blade has a static progression chart detailing its abilities.
A wizard’s Bonded Object specifically states it can be modified using crafting feats. Arcane Pool and Divine Bond says it boosts an existing weapon. The Black Blade’s description tells you to refer to the chart to determine its stats and powers. No where in this description does it give you formulas or options for altering what is listed in the chart provided.
The Ego Score of an intelligent item varies depending on its stats and gp value. Since the Ego score in the Black Blade’s chart is a set value and not a calculation to determine the total ego, you can not do anything to the weapon that would alter the value in the chart.
The rules governing the creation of magic items read:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory"
A wizard's bonded item is different from regular magic items because the rule specifically states it can be modified without using crafting feats but only by the bonded wizard, unlike every other item, which is why it needed a specific rule. Otherwise the bonded item would follow the rules for adding abilities and the wizard would need the feat to do it themselves. The Wizard bonded item rule modifies the standard magic item creation rules by removing the only mandatory prerequisite (the crafting feat), not granting a unique ability to modify the bonded item.
The reason there is no formula or option for altering what is listed in the black blade chart is because those abilities are tied to the Magus level, not the black blade itself.
"As a bladebound magus increases in level, his black blade gains power"
"A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type"(so I give it to a friend and ask them to enchant my "masterwork" weapon :P)
This functions identically to the paladin Bonded Weapon "The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin" because both classes grant their weapons abilities based on the character's class level. The power is in the bond between the character and the item, not really resting solely in either, which is why it only works if that character holds the weapon and only that weapon. It's a kind of unique synergy.
Take the case of the Arcane Archer prestige class. Their class ability enhances EVERY arrow they fire, regardless of the arrow or the bow they use. This is not granted by a 'bond' but it is a class ability. Like the "bonded classes" the arrows only work for the archer and also similarly, "The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
With Divine Bond weapons gain a maximum of +6 "these bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties:...". The weapon can be further enhanced after becoming a Bonded Item without any additional restrictions except the standard ones. The clarification that the Bonded Weapon still follows the limit of a pure +5 enhancement is to reinforce that the bonus of +6 granted at level 20 doesn't allow the paladin to create a +6 Brilliant Energy sword
Any additional abilities added to the Black Blade follow the regular rules for intelligent magic items. Because there is no variation, unlike the wizard's bonded item, there is no need for a specific rule. The magus, to do it themselves, still needs to meet the crafting feat.
The Black Blade description tells you to refer to the chart for it's class based abilities (or base stats) that you get for free. This in itself doesn't prevent you from adding others. Otherwise, it would be impossible to add any other abilities, even temporary ones from spells or items like Scabbard of Keen Edges, because it doesn't say so in the class description of the Black Blade. (Additional abilities granted by Magus Arcana affect the Arcane Pool's influence on the black blade, not the blade itself, so I think it is slightly different than having your friendly wizard cast a buff spell on you and/or your Black Blade).
All intelligent items have an Ego Score. This number does not change unless it is modified by something that changes the ego so an intelligent +5 Sword has a static ego score, not an Ego modifier, just like a black blade. If you add to the the +5 sword, you add the modifier to the ego score. By way of comparison, being a black blade of Magus level 'X' gives it an ego "modifier" of 'Y'. If there are no other modifiers, that number is it's Ego Score. If there are other modifiers, they are added like any other intelligent item.
I see no reason why a Black Blade's Ego Score (or any other intelligent item) should not be modified using the Intelligent Item Chart.
I really hope the developers read through this thread after all the work we're putting into clarifying the rules! I wonder if we can send them a bill for the mess we're cleaning up...
|
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
What happens if the Magus takes the Eldritch Heritage feat, chooses the arcane bloodline, and chooses the Black Blade as his bonded object? Would he still be denied the ability to enhance it?
I'm failing to see how a non-standard ego progression leads to not being able to enhance an item.
I actually see no reason not being able to enchant it, but having it as a bonded object would seem to bypass this restriction, if it exists.
blackbloodtroll wrote: I actually see no reason not being able to enchant it, but having it as a bonded object would seem to bypass this restriction, if it exists. Excellent point!
I agree, or even taking levels of wizard, which is not unreasonable for a Magus archetype that can't wear armor and just wants to boost spell casting. It seems to me that if you can bypass an unwritten restriction with a lowly trait bonus or class dipping, it probably isn't meant to be a restriction.
On a slightly weirder note, I can't find rules saying a paladin/wizard can't stack bonded abilities (weird as that class combo might be). Similarly, a bladebound magus/paladin (also weird combo but allowed) bond stack, essentially bonding the weapon to the magus and then to his god, thus allowing the black blade to be enhanced. A celestial spirit would enhance the intelligent black blade for 1 minute per paladin level and the paladin could further enchant the weapon.
Black blades cannot bear additional weapon enhancements. They are neither magic weapons nor are they masterwork weapons, and one of these two conditions must be met before a weapon can be enhanced by Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
As stated, you do not need a level in wizard to gain a bonded object. I wonder if the Black Blade can be a weapon you already own. Also, if your Black Blade is not considered "magical", but a class feature, there is nothing stopping one from making it an animated object. Then, this weapon can have construct modifications added to it. What happen if your Black Blade is a Klar? Can you not enchant as a shield?
blackbloodtroll wrote: I wonder if the Black Blade can be a weapon you already own. A black blade is gained at class level 3; it cannot be an item already in a character's possession.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Also, if your Black Blade is not considered "magical", but a class feature, there is nothing stopping one from making it an animated object. There is not anything stopping this from happening, but an animated black blade has no benefits over any other mundane animated weapon of its type. A black blade's abilities are determined by the wielder's magus level. An animated blade attacking on its own would not have a wielder, and as a result would not have any additional abilities.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Then, this weapon can have construct modifications added to it. Construct modifications can only be added when the construct is "inanimate or nonfunctioning". When a black blade is enchanted by animate object, it is an animate construct. When the spell ends or is dismissed it is no longer a construct at all. In neither situation is it possible to apply construct modifications.
blackbloodtroll wrote: What happen if your Black Blade is a Klar? Can you not enchant as a shield? Armor and shields must also be masterwork quality or magical items before they can be enhanced. A black blade in the form of a klar would be neither.
Heaven's Agent wrote: Black blades cannot bear additional weapon enhancements. They are neither magic weapons nor are they masterwork weapons, and one of these two conditions must be met before a weapon can be enhanced by Craft Magic Arms and Armor. The class description of the Black Blade class ability is that it grants a weapon.
"A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type."
The rules say only permanent magical items can be intelligent, so the black blade would have to qualify as a magical item [weapon] and therefore must be masterwork.
From that and the description of how a Black Blade can be acquired I think it is fair to conclude that if the Bladebound Magus is less than level 3 and has the Black Blade, it would function as a masterwork weapon of it's type until the bond is formed, at which point the powers manifest (thus allowing the weapon to be gained via the heirloom weapon trait.)
Also, I don't believe that the Bladebound Magus could get the Wizard bonded item as "A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class." However, the paladin Divine Bond is not a familiar and would still be allowable (if somewhat weird).
What about the masterwork transformation spell? Is the Black Blade not subject to spells, such as magic weapon? Using the Craft Construct to make the Black Blade an animated object can be combined with construct modifications. How do spells treat the Black Blade? As an object, or as a creature?
Heaven's Agent wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: I wonder if the Black Blade can be a weapon you already own. A black blade is gained at class level 3; it cannot be an item already in a character's possession.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Also, if your Black Blade is not considered "magical", but a class feature, there is nothing stopping one from making it an animated object. There is not anything stopping this from happening, but an animated black blade has no benefits over any other mundane animated weapon of its type. A black blade's abilities are determined by the wielder's magus level. An animated blade attacking on its own would not have a wielder, and as a result would not have any additional abilities.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Then, this weapon can have construct modifications added to it. Construct modifications can only be added when the construct is "inanimate or nonfunctioning". When a black blade is enchanted by animate object, it is an animate construct. When the spell ends or is dismissed it is no longer a construct at all. In neither situation is it possible to apply construct modifications.
blackbloodtroll wrote: What happen if your Black Blade is a Klar? Can you not enchant as a shield? Armor and shields must also be masterwork quality or magical items before they can be enhanced. A black blade in the form of a klar would be neither. In the sidebar description of gaining a black blade, one of the several ways listed (and I gather these are just some examples) that a magus can acquire a black blade is "Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential."
An heirloom is defined as "something special that is passed down from generation to generation"
So the magus inherits the black blade at level 1 and at level 3 becomes the first member of the family to "unlock its true potential". Where's the conflict?
Arguably if you want to be a stickler for rules, using the heirloom weapon trait and then paying to have the item made into a masterwork weapon at character creation through Masterwork Transformation could be the key to start the unlocking that takes effect at level 3...I'd just balance it with a house rule that you could take the trait and pay the difference in masterwork cost, rather than the cost to have someone cast the spell
Putting forth these ideas to improve the Black Blade eats up feats and resources. This should be considered.
I disagree with HA on a few points here..
Heaven's Agent wrote: There is not anything stopping this from happening, but an animated black blade has no benefits over any other mundane animated weapon of its type. A black blade's abilities are determined by the wielder's magus level. An animated blade attacking on its own would not have a wielder, and as a result would not have any additional abilities. Really? From Dancing: "The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items."
Not that it matters, but I would think that the blackblade does not cease to be the blackblade of said magus when it is loosed or let out of his/her possession.
Heaven's Agent wrote: A black blade is gained at class level 3; it cannot be an item already in a character's possession. This is a side topic, but it simply says you gain the class feature at level 3, exactly where the item comes from is very nebulous. I'd like to see the rules text that support this idea that an item flies into your posession at level 3.
I could see a scimitar wielding magus having their scimitar become a blackblade at level 3. And it would make the most sense.
For the purposes of spells, feats, and effects, it is a weapon, and an object. If you disagree, then you must consider that it must count as something. Once defined, it must treated as such for consistency, as the game depends on it.
I'd count it as a specific weapon. It doesn't fit inside the normal rules structure for weapons. In my opinion it's the same vein as, for example, an Assassin's Dagger. An Assassin's Dagger is +2. In a homebrew, sure you can make it +3 or +5, add on Keen or Unholy, or anything like that. But as written an Assassin's Dagger is +2, with no real rules for enhancing it beyond that. The Black Blade is the same vein, it's what is listed for it's level, nothing more, nothing less.
Can you cast magic weapon upon it? Is it subject to dispel magic? Can animate it with animate objects? Is there any reason it cannot be a bonded object as well? Can it be sundered? Can you cast make whole upon it?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Can you cast magic weapon upon it? Is it subject to dispel magic? Can animate it with animate objects? Is there any reason it cannot be a bonded object as well? Can it be sundered? Can you cast make whole upon it? 1) Sure, buy why would you? Enhancement bonuses don't stack. I suppose you could use Greater Magic Weapon on it though, it is a weapon.
2) Yes
3) Sure. You can also animate a table. Does that mean we can make +2 Flaming Burst tables? (Well, outside the WWE that is)
4) Now that's a tricky one. In a home game, I just wouldn't allow that. If it were someone else's game, I just wouldn't do that. Sure you can't break it, but someone steals it and locks it away with a dimensional anchor spell (or other such effect) preventing it's teleport from working, you just put pretty much all your eggs in one basket that you don't have anymore.
5) Not as long as it has 1 arcane pool
6) Sure, see table arguement
None of those address the viewpoint I made about it being a Specific Weapon though.
Specific weapons can be further enchanted. Also, they can be a bonded object. What if the Black Blade is a Klar? Can it not be further enchanted as a shield? Why is it a Luck Blade can be a bonded object, but a Black Blade cannot?
Xzaral wrote: I'd count it as a specific weapon. It doesn't fit inside the normal rules structure for weapons. In my opinion it's the same vein as, for example, an Assassin's Dagger. An Assassin's Dagger is +2. In a homebrew, sure you can make it +3 or +5, add on Keen or Unholy, or anything like that. But as written an Assassin's Dagger is +2, with no real rules for enhancing it beyond that. The Black Blade is the same vein, it's what is listed for it's level, nothing more, nothing less. I agree with you that the best fit for a black blade is as a specific weapon. I also agree that for game continuity (and gm/player relations) that Black Blade must be 'categorized' and treated that way for feats, etc. It's not a class ability, it's an intelligent magic item that benefits from a class ability. (So it's a specific magic item that needs to be treated as an NPC, due to it being intelligent)
However, the rules are unambiguous for adding abilities to any magic item. In the explanation there is even an example of adding an ability to a specific item.
"Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place."
and
"If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection 2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5."
The use of the word 'only' when listing the restrictions in the rules for adding abilities make it a universal rule, meaning that it applies to all things, unless specifically prohibited. I can find no rules that segregate "specific" magic items from generic ones
Quod non prohibetur ultro permissum est - "That which is not forbidden is freely permitted"
blackbloodtroll wrote: Specific weapons can be further enchanted. Also, they can be a bonded object. What if the Black Blade is a Klar? Can it not be further enchanted as a shield? Why is it a Luck Blade can be a bonded object, but a Black Blade cannot? I looked further into it. I must say, you are right.
It appears that Specific Weapons can be enchanted further (We allow it in my homegame, depending on the weapon and such, but I thought that was a house rule).
There is nothing that specifically prevents a Black Blade from being an Arcane Bond.
I guess what the problem I'm seeing here really is why? What are you trying to accomplish by adding these additional abilities to the Black Blade?
If it's a numerical advantage to increase the overall combat power of the character, then yea, I don't see anything specifically preventing it. The GM could still disallow it if they believe it's a clear violation of the intention of the rules, but they can do that for pretty much any rule.
If it's to keep a character mechanically competitive with others in your group while maintaining a character concept, then really what does it matter what the rules say? It's just a game, talk to the GM to see about getting it to work, make a mechanic or rule that allows it without breaking everything.
Virtua Monk wrote: "A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type." It may function as a masterwork weapon, but it is not a masterwork weapon. You need an actual masterwork weapon before you can add enhancements. Additionally, since it is not a masterwork weapon it cannot be selected as an arcane bond.
Virtua Monk wrote: The rules say only permanent magical items can be intelligent, so the black blade would have to qualify as a magical item [weapon] and therefore must be masterwork. That simply prevents temporarily magical items from being turned into an intelligent magical item. Your logic usage is backwards, and in this instance faulty. Only permanent magical items can become intelligent magical items. A black blade, though intelligent, is not an intelligent magical item.
Virtua Monk wrote: From that and the description of how a Black Blade can be acquired I think it is fair to conclude that if the Bladebound Magus is less than level 3 and has the Black Blade, it would function as a masterwork weapon of it's type until the bond is formed, at which point the powers manifest (thus allowing the weapon to be gained via the heirloom weapon trait.) False, and I believe I saw this one clarified by a developer somewhere. The blade is gained at level 3. If someone already has the item, it cannot be gained.
blackbloodtroll wrote: What about the masterwork transformation spell? There is no such thing as a masterwork black blade. As it has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Is the Black Blade not subject to spells, such as magic weapon? If the blade is a valid target spells like magic weapon should function normally.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Using the Craft Construct to make the Black Blade an animated object can be combined with construct modifications. If you create an appropriate construct form and if it boasts an inactive state then yes, you can. Remember though that its special abilities do not function unless it is wielded by a magus.
Now that we agree upon the animated Black Blade.
Weapon Modification: This modification enhances a construct’s physical weaponry. This process includes adding actual weapons (such as blades or spiked chains) to the physical structure of the construct or enhancing existing weapons with additional magical properties. Structural changes alter the construct’s damage only. A construct is automatically considered proficient with any weapon added to its structure as a weapon modification. The cost for adding a weapon is determined by the cost of the weapon or weapon enhancement added. The cost for magical enhancements to these weapons is the same as the cost for creating magic weapons as described on page 468 of the Core Rulebook. Performing a weapon modification also requires the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat.
EDIT You know what, nevermind. I'm done contributing to a discussion with individuals simply attempting to twist the game's rules so that they can gain advantages that were never intended; this thread has progressed beyond a simple rules question.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I think there is one big thing we are missing in this debate; what is the Black Blades price? In order to add enchantments to something, you need to know it's base price, and the 'cost' of the black blades abilities is not stated anywhere. therefor, you might as well be asking if you can further enchant the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords...
Beyond the fact that it's natural enhancement combined with Arcane Pool means that you would be wasting resources, and that it normally refuses to work at all for anyone other than you...
Also think about this. You are probably NOT the first user of this black blade. It has probably reached the pinnacle of it's power, and indeed lost it all as well, several times before you ever touched it or knew of its existence. 9 times out of 10, they won't even tell you what they want to do!
I doubt it would even allow you to try to change it's magical properties, and in the time it would take you to complete the enchantment, it could force an AWFUL lot of ego contests to make you stop...
|
4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Heaven's Agent wrote: Virtua Monk wrote: "A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type." It may function as a masterwork weapon, but it is not a masterwork weapon. You need an actual masterwork weapon before you can add enhancements. Additionally, since it is not a masterwork weapon it cannot be selected as an arcane bond.
Virtua Monk wrote: The rules say only permanent magical items can be intelligent, so the black blade would have to qualify as a magical item [weapon] and therefore must be masterwork. That simply prevents temporarily magical items from being turned into an intelligent magical item. Your logic usage is backwards, and in this instance faulty. Only permanent magical items can become intelligent magical items. A black blade, though intelligent, is not an intelligent magical item.
Virtua Monk wrote: From that and the description of how a Black Blade can be acquired I think it is fair to conclude that if the Bladebound Magus is less than level 3 and has the Black Blade, it would function as a masterwork weapon of it's type until the bond is formed, at which point the powers manifest (thus allowing the weapon to be gained via the heirloom weapon trait.) False, and I believe I saw this one clarified by a developer somewhere. The blade is gained at level 3. If someone already has the item, it cannot be gained.
blackbloodtroll wrote: What about the masterwork transformation spell? There is no such thing as a masterwork black blade. As it has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Is the Black Blade not subject to spells, such as magic weapon? If the blade is a valid target spells like magic weapon should function normally.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Using the Craft Construct to make the Black Blade an animated object can be combined with construct modifications. If you create an appropriate construct form and if... My question here is not how to twist the rules, but actually came about by an innocent question someone else asked that got me thinking. Someone wanted to create a Dex based bladebound kensai on the Aldori Dueling sword instead of being forced to make a carbon copy Dervish Dance Scimitar version. As a GM I thought, well, why shouldn't he be able to? Pathfinder is about imagination, not unnecessarily restricting people and forcing them down a path.
The issue was that using the Aldori Dueling Sword instead of the Dervish Dance + Scimitar meant that he would lose out on Dex damage, or have to also build up strength. The simple solution (i.e. without creating any additional rules or feats) was to suggest having the weapon enchanted as a +1 Agile Sword. Problem solved, character concept approved. Up until he could get the enchantment done he'll have to suck it up.
At this point a lot of people have raised several good points and there has been some repetition for responses so I think I'll start with a quick summary of what we've been discussing before addressing Heaven's Agent's claims of logical fallacy. On that note I am attempting to interpret the rules using Ockham's Razor. "select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect."
As a starting point I will summarize only points of fact. Once the relevant facts are compiled we can look at the conclusions we can draw with the minimum number of assumptions necessary to create a standard and fair method of dealing with Black Blades.
Origin and Acquisition of the Black Blade
1) As a class feature a Bladebound Magus is provided, without any additional cost, a one-handed slashing weapon of their choice at level 3 (or rapier or sword cane).
2) Also at level three, the Bladebound Magus class ability allows their chosen weapon to manifest powers and intelligence that scale with the level of the Magus. When this happens the weapon is known as a Black Blade. Class Abilities that grant powers to a weapon and scale with level is not a new concept, paladins also get this ability.
3) The item is bonded to the Magus and the class based abilities granted to the blade only function for the Magus. Also not a unique concept, a paladin's Divine Bonded weapon functions this way, as does the Arcane Bonded Item of a wizard or the arrows of an Arcane Archer. In each of these cases enhancement bonuses or abilities granted as part of the Class Ability can be added to existing enhancements as per the normal rules.
4) The weapon that is to become their Black Blade comes into the Bladebound Magus's possession by any number of means (with some common examples provided in the description). [assumption: This is most likely intended to provide the GM and the player the freedom to create an interesting character concept or Campaign plot.]
5) The Black Blade takes the spot of a familiar. It cannot be a familiar or bonded item for any other class, nor can the Bladebound Magus have a familiar or bonded item from any other class.
6) The weapon is granted as a class feature and has no price. [Assumption: the price is the regular Magus abilities given up to become a Bladebound Magus, like any other archetype that loses normal class abilities to gain new ones. The Black Blade is a powerful class ability and is already balanced out by the powers taken away when the archetype was designed.]
Ockham's Razor: The Black Blade should be treated exactly like any other intelligent magic item. For any effect, spell, enhancement, feat, etc. the normal prerequisites must still be met unless a specific exception is provided. Class Abilities granted by the Bladebound Magus level interact with other enchantments, spells or abilities exactly like the common rules from other classes that grant abilities to bonded items unless a specific rule in the Bladebound Archetype description says otherwise. So a Bladebound Magus would not gain the Wizard's unique ability to enchant their bonded item without the mandatory crafting feat.
Conclusions:
The Black Blade has no permanent enchantments (all are class based ability) so the powers of a Black Blade are not calculated into the cost of enhancements. However, because there is no rule excluding the Blade Blade from a total +10 enhancement modifier, this must be factored in to whether or not an enhancement (of any kind) can be added to the blade.
When held by the Bladebound Magus the enhancement modifiers of the Black Blade do not stack with any existing enhancement modifiers (i.e. the pure +X) and conform the the normal restrictions of a maximum of +10 and would not duplicate or double powers already there. If the Black Blade has pre-existing enchantments (temporary or permanent) when another power is being activated, if the power would push the enhancement cap past +10 (or any other normal restriction) the power would fail to work. (e.g. Our level 20 Magus could only place a power with an enhancement bonus of +4 or less because of the existing +5 from Black Blade Progression and +1 for the Agile ability).
A black blade is a weapon that can be enchanted like any other, so long as the normal prerequisites and restrictions are observed. The enhancement bonus of the black blade is based on the Magus level and should be treated as temporary for the purposes of enchanting the Black Blade with powers.
This means that for our Aldori Dueling Magus to create an Agile Aldori Dueling sword he needs to pay the normal +2 price (+1 enhancement minimum and +1 for Agile).
Scenario
At level 3 when he wields the blade it functions as a +1 Agile Black Blade because the +1 from the enchanting does not stack with the +1 gained from it being a bonded Black Blade. When his fighter friend picks it up to use because the Magus has been knocked out, it's a +1 Agile Aldori Dueling Sword.
Our hero makes it to level 20 and now when he wields the Black Blade it functions like a +5 Agile Black Blade. When his fighter friend picks it up (our hero gets knocked out a lot) it's still only a +1 Agile Aldori Dueling Sword.
In his final battle our hero doesn't get knocked out and finds himself fighting the Omega Hydra. Using his Arcane Pool he summons the power of his +5 Agile Black Blade to make it Vorpal...and it fails as this would put the enhancement bonus up to +11. Our hero contemplates all the battles over the years where having the Agile ability on the sword was really awesome and wonders if it was worthwhile
Making an assumption that a weapon capable of being an intelligent magic item would not be masterwork is not consistent with the concept of a Black Blade, nor the rules for intelligent magic items. Because the specific rules for the Black Blade say that in the hands of anyone but the Magus the Black Blade functions as a masterwork weapon this is a specific addition to the rule that Bonded Items function only for their owner. If, in the hands of a someone trying to enchant the weapon, the Black Blade functions like a masterwork weapon, could he enchant it? Because it functions like a masterwork weapon it meets the prerequisite so...Yes. Therefore, since there is a specific rule about the nature of the Black Blade, it is always a masterwork item The details, such as who pays the masterwork fee are game balance issues.
This may require that the character pay the 300g to make the item masterwork either at character creation (if they have the weapon that will become their Black Blade from the beginning) or at level 3 when the Black comes into their possession. Alternately, the GM can provide the player with a masterwork weapon at level three that becomes their Black Blade. (For all you nay sayers, what do you do if the GM gives the Magus a +1 Sword at level 3 and says "here's your Black Blade"?)
Powers of the Black Blade
1) A Black Blade is a weapon. It is a unique, physical weapon that can be broken by normal means.
2) The Black Blade must have an Arcane Pool to to be unbreakable. Thus if the Black Blade has used it's Arcane Pool it can be broken. In the hands of anyone but the Bladebound Magus it functions as a masterwork weapon and can be broken.
3) The unique Black Blade powers granted by the Bladebound Archetype do not prevent the Black Blade from benefiting from powers granted by Magus Arcana, spells and magical items such as Scabbard of Keen Edges.
4) Black Blades have an Ego Score that scales with the Bladebound Magus level. This Ego Score progression is a non-standard progression specifically designed to balance out the class.
5) Intelligent Item Ego scores are based on adding the combined modifiers (including mental stats) to the existing Ego Score of an intelligent item. This includes the Base Value modifier of the total enchantments on the item (as per the chart)
6) Additional powers added to intelligent items follow the standard Ego Modifier chart.
Ockham's Razor: An Ego Score is the base number that is modified. Unless a specific rule says the modification of an Ego Score is non-standard, it follows the standard rules for modification found in the Intelligent Items section.
Conclusions
A Black Blade follows the non-standard Ego Score Progression Chart that is subject to the same modification rules as other intelligent items. The base Ego Score of a Black Blade is the number provided in the Table: Black Blade Progression. Any additional powers or abilities that add modifiers to an Intelligent Item's Ego Score follow the rules for Intelligent Items and are added to the existing Ego Score of the Black Blade.
The initial value of the Black Blade is 0, as it's a class granted feature. The Ego Score Modifier for making it a +1 Agile weapon is +2 due to the base magic item value of 8000gp. Thus a "level 3" Black Blade has an Ego Score of 5+2 for a total of 7 and at level 5 it is 8+2 for a total of 10, etc.
Now as far as Heaven's Agent's claims of some logical fallacies on my part I'll try to address some.
It is not necessary for a magic item to exist prior to being intelligent, thus your statement about only permanent magic items can become intelligent is logically false. An item can be made intelligent at the same time (but not before) it is made magical as part of the creation process. Therefore, logically, the necessary and sufficient condition for intelligence in an item is that it is also permanently magical. The Black Blade is magical so it can be intelligent. Up until it is magical it is not intelligent. Logically sound.
To add to this the description of the Black Blade describes is specifically as a "particular form of intelligent weapon". No where does it say it is not magical and in fact if you look at the Black Blade Progression chart, it is a +1 weapon.
The rules on intelligent items are straightforward and the description of the Black Blade does not contradict them.
Ockham's Razor: Since it is specifically described as an intelligent weapon, it has a +1 magic enhancement, there is nothing saying it isn't magical and only permanent magic items can be intelligent it must be a magical weapon. In the hands of anyone else, it's both the magic and the intelligence are suppressed, but it is still a Black Blade. At no point is it ever magical and not intelligent, nor intelligent but not magical.
All that aside, adding abilities does prevent powerful ones like Vorpal being added later on. I think a more elegant solution would be to either add a Magus Arcana, a feat or ideally a class ability that allows a "wielder of a Black Blade to add their dexterity modifier to damage instead of Strength if their Black Blade can benefit from Weapon Finesse and the Magus has the Weapon Finesse Feat".
I mean seriously...the guy dedicates his whole life to the blade, but some prancing bard can add dex damage because he can dance with a scimitar and the magus can't, even if he's studied enough Aldori Dueling to wield an Aldori Dueling Blade? Dervish Dance is not supernatural so it's obviously learnable.
This fails the common sense test as far as I'm concerned.
The above is an excellent overview of the matter at hand, I would be curious to see if this progresses further.
I will note, that it is entirely possible to have a familiar, and a bonded object, each from a different source.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I find it amusing that you are using Ockham's Razor as the basis for all of those assumptions, and yet you have ignored the simplest solution of all of them; "the rules do not say that you CAN enchant Black Blades further, so you cannot."
Assumptions for this statement:
1) The black blade is a class feature, and an object that does not follow the standard conventions of any other magic item of a similar classification. therefore you cannot apply standard assumptions based on other conventions.
2) It is not a standard magic item, because no other standard magic item has a mutable level of power based on the level of it's wielder, and thus cannot be enchanted by standard means.
3) It is not a standard intellegent item, as it does not follow the standard ego progression chart, so any normal rules regarding ego modification cannot be applied.
4) The game is a permissive ruleset. It tells you what you CAN do, not what you CANNOT. The rules do not say that fighters can use spells, so they cannot. the rules do not say that humans have 100 arms, so they do not. the rules do not say that you can do anything when you are dead, so you cannot. The rules don't tell you that Black Blades can be enchanced, so they cannot.
Conclusions
The Black Blade shares most traits in common with minor artifacts (Powerful, but not unique. Possesses non-standard powers. Beyond mortal methods of creation. Can only be destroyed by specific means. Can never be purchased. Controlled by the DM.) There are no rules in place for further enchanting Artifacts, and thus it cannot be enchanted beyond it's stated abilities.
See? i have used a lot less assumptions (only 4, as oppodes to your 12), and come to a much simpler solution. Therefore, by Ockham's Razor, my answer is most valid.
|
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
For what its worth I find that Virtua has made several points that lead me to believe that yes you can enchant a black blade. And I find i funny that a black blade would be the only permant magic weapon that isn't masterwork.
Also i would reccomend that the Faq button be hit even if your 100% sure your right and everyone else is wrong since i believe this thread has shown that there is a question to be answered here.
Oh, don't worry, i've hit the FAQ button. personally, i've seen this argument appear one too many times, and i'd like to receive a final word at last.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
It's Tuesday. We may get an answer today!
God that would be awesome.
Sets alarm to remember to check blog when i wake up.
The black blade is not an ordinary blade in which enchantment rules can be applied.
Essentially its like Stormbringer... a creature in the form of a weapon. And it improves in the following ways.
1. It has it's own familliar type table in which it gains enhancement plus and abilities as it's master advances in magus class levels.
2. It can be boosted by the Magus arcane pool and arcana.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Y'know, I noticed that several folks noted that part of the Black Blade restrictions is that you cannot gain a bonded item or familiar from another class. As I pointed out above, the Soul Forger archetype [which is not another class] technically stacks with Bladebound, and gives you the ability to select a bonded item.
Doesn't require any multiclassing or Eldritch Heritage feat.
It'd really be nice to have a final answer on this whole scenario, so I hope the devs can give this some thought and attention.
Stockvillain wrote: Y'know, I noticed that several folks noted that part of the Black Blade restrictions is that you cannot gain a bonded item or familiar from another class. As I pointed out above, the Soul Forger archetype [which is not another class] technically stacks with Bladebound, and gives you the ability to select a bonded item.
Doesn't require any multiclassing or Eldritch Heritage feat.
It'd really be nice to have a final answer on this whole scenario, so I hope the devs can give this some thought and attention.
The Soulforger archetype can not be stacked with Bladebound because of the specific restriction on the latter. That blade simply won't tolerate any competition for your attention. You can not have a bonded item, nor can you have an animal companion if you multi-class to druid or paladin.
|
