Black Blade enhancement limitation?


Rules Questions

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Sczarni

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Actually not trying to be too nit picky, but hey CAN have a bonded item as it ONLY restricts FAMILIARS

and to quote:
"At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus (see sidebar). A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class."

Thus, as long as you can have a bonded object from another feature/class/etc you can have that. If something bothers to say something along the lines of "if you can't have a familiar/bonded item then you can't have this class feature" then you wouldn't.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The problem with rules lawyers is that they tend to throw all common sense out the window. The idea that a black blade is not a magical item but a class feature is ridiculous. It's obviously a magical item, and one should be able to enchant it like any other magical item. I think it makes perfect sense that it could be an heirloom weapon, or found in a pile of treasure, or just appears to the character at level 3.


Ultimatley unless the devs say something, this is totally up to your DM. My 2 cents is as follows.

Being that I play a bladebound now, I would love to be able to improve my weapon, but I fully understand not allowing it too.

Ego score and power balancing become tricky. Determining the cost of improving (if your weapon is still going to continue leveling with you from its adjusted power level) is also an issue.

I don't see why there would be an issue with a player "swaping out" enchantment bonus for an equivalentit weapon property. ie: instead of my black blade being +2 could I make it +1 agile, or +1 spellstoring, or even +1 orc bane. Some of those options may actually fit great from an RP stand point, and are not going to lopside weapon power. Why should a dex character be forced into the same cookie cutter scimitar dervish build? If my weapons secret mission is to obliterate an entire group of beings, wouldn't the bane property seem fitting?

As far as when the player recieves his weapon....(whether its an heirloom weapon, or a weapon the character suddenly recieves at level 3).. who cares!? As long as the blackblades powers dont "manifest" until the appropriate time (level 3), then what difference does it really make?


LazarX wrote:
Stockvillain wrote:

Y'know, I noticed that several folks noted that part of the Black Blade restrictions is that you cannot gain a bonded item or familiar from another class. As I pointed out above, the Soul Forger archetype [which is not another class] technically stacks with Bladebound, and gives you the ability to select a bonded item.

Doesn't require any multiclassing or Eldritch Heritage feat.

It'd really be nice to have a final answer on this whole scenario, so I hope the devs can give this some thought and attention.

The Soulforger archetype can not be stacked with Bladebound because of the specific restriction on the latter. That blade simply won't tolerate any competition for your attention. You can not have a bonded item, nor can you have an animal companion if you multi-class to druid or paladin.

As the rules stand, I can't see why you couldn't stack the Soulforger archetype with the bladebound. (there's a but)

Technically, you can take any combination of archetypes so long as none of them change the same class feature.

BUT the Black Blade archetype text says:

"A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class."

Since a bonded item is akin to a familiar, that would prevent you from taking a different or second bonded item. Both archetypes get the bonded item at the same level so I see no reason why you could not have the bonded item being the Black Blade for both. It's a bit of a waste, but technically there's no reason why you can't (assuming you're of my school of reason that allows enchanting of black blades).


Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:

The Black Blade can’t be changed from the stats listed in the progression chart. The Black Blade’s charted enhancement bonus can’t be reallocated to special abilities like flaming or keen. Eventually the weapon will have a +5 enhancement bonus and the Arcane Pool will make it equivalent to a +10 weapon.

What this means is that at level 3-4 the Black Blade has a +1 enhancement bonus, and you can use Arcane Pool to increase it to a +2 weapon. At level 5-6 the weapon is +2 and you have a +2 bonus from your Arcane Pool to build a +4 equivalent weapon. This means you could have a +4 weapon, a +3 Keen weapon, or a +2 Flaming Burst weapon. You could not make the weapon a +1 Keen Flaming Burst weapon, since you couldn’t use the weapon’s enhancement bonus to add special abilites.

Thank you SO MUCH for explaining this. I was wondering how the black blade worked and if it had any inherent enchantments/adds for damaage and to hit or if everything had to come from the magus' arcane pool.

Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
The lack of it being made of special material isn’t a major setback. At level 5 you can make it a +4 weapon with Arcane Pool. At this point it bypasses Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR. At 9th level you could make the Black Blade a +5 weapon which bypasses Alignment based DR.

I beg your pardon, but where is this rule (that a+4/+5 weapon can bypass material-based or alignment based-DR) listed? I must have blinked and missed it.


Every time I see this thread I FAQ it. I just put it on the ask james jacobs thread to see what he says. So here is hoping the developer will tell everyone.


Eric Hinkle wrote:
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
The lack of it being made of special material isn’t a major setback. At level 5 you can make it a +4 weapon with Arcane Pool. At this point it bypasses Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR. At 9th level you could make the Black Blade a +5 weapon which bypasses Alignment based DR.
I beg your pardon, but where is this rule (that a+4/+5 weapon can bypass material-based or alignment based-DR) listed? I must have blinked and missed it.

Overcoming DR


ok James jacobs replyed on the ask james jacobs thread and he says, "Nope. Unless your GM allows it." Telling me the answer is no unless your gm house rules its ok. So for pfs it really is no.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Von, would you be so kind as to provide a link to his post, please?

I was just about to post to say that I think enchanting a black blade is not only perfectly fine, but allowed. Oh well.

Grand Lodge

Link please.


im not quite sure how to link it. esplain real fast and i will.


[url=http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=355?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here]

did this work


Ask James Jacobs.


My issue with Enchanting a Blackblade is that At level 3, the blade is a +1 weapon, so enchanting it would cost 6000gp?

What about if it was a Lv 13 blackblade? He's got a +4 bonus on his weapon, so adding a property costs how much? 6000, or is it 18,000 to go to a +5 enchantment? The question is how does it actually work at the different levels?

Since the Blackblade provides an Enhancement bonus, and they don't stack, and usually if there is an enhancement bonus, the strongest bonus usually overshadows the other bonuses. So the Blackblade's bonus could cancle out any other lower enhancements, not stack with them. So at level 9, the +3 enhancement bonus from the Blackblade class-feature would cancel out a +1 agile enhancement.

So Occam's razor, simplest explanation is that you can't enchant the Blackblade. It gives you a free unbreakable enchanted weapon that scales with level. Balance-wise it's a HUGE boon. and letting you further enchant it is way stronger than any other option for a magus. Loose one arcana with the ability to get a +10 weapon for 50,000 (150,000 less than it should cost).


it's twards the bottom


Archaeik wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
The lack of it being made of special material isn’t a major setback. At level 5 you can make it a +4 weapon with Arcane Pool. At this point it bypasses Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR. At 9th level you could make the Black Blade a +5 weapon which bypasses Alignment based DR.
I beg your pardon, but where is this rule (that a+4/+5 weapon can bypass material-based or alignment based-DR) listed? I must have blinked and missed it.

Overcoming DR

Thanks for the link.


I feel like people are missing something. The Black Blade is an intelligent weapon that refuses to work as anything beyond masterwork for anyone except it's magus. It seems to me that, following the conventions for magic weapons, it's a little silly to think of the Black Blade as actually gaining in power with the magus; rather, it seems more like every Black Blade is an incredibly powerful magic item that requires it's wielder to be at a particular level to wield portions of its power. In other words, it's like the Black Blade only allows its magus to access certain amounts of it's power based on the magus's level.

With that in mind, in my own games I would certainly allow a Bladebound magus to further enchant their Black Blade... but based on it's abilities at its full power. Therefore, one could not add a straight enhancement bonus (since the weapon ends up as a +5), but could add special weapon properties such as flaming by calculating the weapon's existing bonus as +5. So regardless of the magus's level, adding flaming to an otherwise un-enhanced Black Blade would cost 22,000gp (the difference between a +5 and an effective +6 weapon).

Of course, one could also argue that an epic level magus's Black Blade would continue getting enhancement bonuses (becoming a +6 weapon at level 21) since it is a regular progression, so it has potentially unlimited power... but as we've seen, one can make a lot of arguments about Black Blades :P

Just my two cents on the matter.


so you can't get spell storing on a blackblade? that's pretty lame.

Scarab Sages

Heaven's Agent wrote:
Black blades cannot bear additional weapon enhancements. They are neither magic weapons nor are they masterwork weapons, and one of these two conditions must be met before a weapon can be enhanced by Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

actually- they are. The fact that they are intelligent makes them magical.

They function as masterwork weapons in the hands of anyone else simply because they refuse to use their abilities.

Grand Lodge

Klar Blackblades can have shield enhancements.

Scarab Sages

Xzaral wrote:


I guess what the problem I'm seeing here really is why? What are you trying to accomplish by adding these additional abilities to the Black Blade?

Dancing Black blade of Keen Spell storing. -on a rapier :D

Since it is still considered "wielded by the magus" it still has all its black blade goodies. Unless the gm wants to invoke the blade's EGO and the weapon gets "jealous" of you wielding another weapon while its fighting on its own. (and refuses to use its powers out of spite)

Anyways, you can probly see how that can get nasty.

Spell storing alone on a magus would be gross...
(allowing keen on a rapier is already broke)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Virtua Monk wrote:

so...I don't see the issue. However, I agree the Bladebound Magus' black blade is more like the bonded item for a wizard than the paladin's Divine Bond.

It just seems like people are hung up on a the idea that a class feature is not an actual "thing", rather than seeing it as a class feature that grants an item. If the other classes that have bonded item class features can add additional enchantments to their item, why would a class that is built around dedicating themselves to their bonded item be restricted? It's not a "game balance" issue either since the +10 cap is still in effect and there are TONS of examples of spells that temporarily affect magic items.

The item however does not have an existence apart from it's master. What's Baby Stormbringer to you, is just a nicely made weapon to someone else with an ego conflict built into it.

The Blackblade as a built in enhancement that progresses as you level. On top of that, it can be enhanced using the Magus' arcane pool. Between the two, you get an appropriately powerful weapon by level for free.

As far as the rules are concerned, an argument can be made that the blackblade is simply not a suitable target for enchantment as it fails the first test of being a proper masterwork item at it's base. Which it clearly is not.

Scarab Sages

Pomkin wrote:
so you can't get spell storing on a blackblade? that's pretty lame.

you can and its pretty broken

I was thinking- get shock, and spell storing. cast shocking grasp into it, then with spellstrike...cast shocking grasp again

even at lvl 3 thats 1d6(weapon)+1d6(shock)+3d6(stored shocking grasp)+3d6 spellstrike= 8d6 damage in 1 attack at lvl 3
do you have any rogue levels? are you flanking?

what other class can come up with that much cheese?

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