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Therefore I caution any GM against including such things in their games. You simply never know when it might effect one of your players on a personal level, possibly causing them to lash out, or otherwise take extreme offense.To some people, such topics are not "fun" and should never be considered a means of entertainment, even as far as "roleplaying" is concerned.
RD-- very good advice.
I'd advise that everyone should consider this when addressing any sensitive topics, not just rape and mutilation.
I got one for you guys. I'm invited to play in a D&D game, and asked to roll 5th level PCs. I roll a female human wizard. During the game, it turns out that there is supposedly some vampire in the town and we're supposed to be investigating it and such. Having determined that splitting up would be a very bad idea, I returned to the inn from the stables because it was getting dark, and went to see one of the other PCs.
Turns out that the vampire was in the room with the other PC, and it was all dark and stuff. I muttered a simple light spell before entering, and suddenly get hit by some sort of super-high Will save, and my PC ends up getting dominated/paralyzed; at which point she is sodomized by the vampire. While my PC is literally taking it up the @$$, I'm sitting there like .
"If she gets out of this alive, she will never forget this indignity, and will vow to kill this vampire a thousand times over..." is more or less my response, as I'm trying to be calm about the situation.
The GM rolls some dice behind his screen and says "Actually, no, she really likes it."
I did not make the next session.
I don't care who's character it's happening to; even an NPC. I would not put up with that s*++. I do not hang out with people who think rape is fun or amusing. I'll with it if it's in the background and handled very seriously for dramatic effect or storyline, but I would get up and walk out right then and there and disrupt the game after hearing someone deal with rape as if it were fun.
I have a tie for the worst:
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)
Second, the DM adopts on-the-fly house rules that are detrimental for the PCs. Example: All wish spells have drawbacks, no matter the source. So you wish your party out of the enemy stronghold, on board your ship, headed away from danger. *Poof* Wish granted. Oh, and you're all naked. You wished your party out of there, but didn't specify you wanted to take your gear with you. *snicker*
Sunder/disintegrate the gear at every opportunity. Cut limbs. Rape the female characters. Do I really need to go on?
MM most of that isn't the GM, it's the NPCs in the world around the PCs. The GM is NOT his NPCs actions.
In this vein I agree far more with GM gaffs being evil, not bathing, not allowing for spotlight to be shared among all players, playing favorites and taking bribes.
Those are the Evils that GMs can do. It ends games and campaigns and runs people away from gaming.
Actions of an NPC, well those are different.
Any reliance on spells of a certain sort, certain Combat Maneuvers, those things can be devious and annoying but far from evil.
So rape is a common reoccurring thing in other people's campaigns?
Not like that. At least not in my campaigns. There have been instances where NPCs were noted to have suffered such indignities, as was appropriate for the story at hand*. Such things are always handled off screen. There is one instance where a PC was at a point where it could have occurred, but it was neither the focus of the game, nor was it forced (ironically, since actual sexual assault is forced)**.
*: One adventure involved an NPC who had suffered at the hands of a corrupt law enforcement who abused their power in a slum. The NPC had a mutant-emergence and gained levels in the sorcerer class. Having suddenly awakened to a means to take her revenge, she lashed out at the guard station, and caused a huge ruckus trying to punish the guards who were involved. The PCs acted as unbiased mediators, brought the guilty guards to justice, and absorbed the woman into their group and took her away from the area to avoid her being punished for fireballing the guard station. She traveled with the party until she had successfully come to terms with what had happened and then settled down somewhere, becoming a party-friendly NPC.
**: One instance involved the party rescuing a hostage from some orcs and an ogre. The battle was turning sour on them, and a few PCs were disabled. This was an online campaign so the player and I were passing notes while the game was ongoing. The player asked what the likelihood of the PC's fate would be. I thought about what the bad guys would do with the PC, and gave a list of possibilities, which included possible torture and/or sexual assault; but I noted that anything the player wasn't comfortable with would simply not occur (if the player would just rather the PC die and have an opportunity to get raised without additional bad things that was fine too). The player commented that it might be interesting to explore the character's persona after having such a thing occur, as a personal struggle.
It never actually came to that, however, as the PCs overcame the enemy, saved the hostage, and avoided further problems.
My group sometimes touches on some dark places, but that's not uncommon in mature groups who are okay with dealing with such issues. If you can watch Law & Order, you can likely handle anything that comes around in my games. It's definitely not super-frequent, but such things are acknowledged (just like other terrible things are acknowledged, like people-eating demons and stuff).
That being said, Pathfinder's not exactly Winnie the Pooh either. There's at least one adventure path that involves a necromantic ogre who animated and uses her two dead sons zombie bodies to pleasure herself. That's pretty dark... >.>
And when someone in the group happens to be a survivor of rape or other sexual abuse? This is the sort of thing that needs to be carefully sounded-out before it gets included, no matter who the target(s) are, PC or NPC.
This is true. Some plots and stuff just aren't suitable for some groups. Running a game for one group can be different from running for another. I would never use certain plot points or graphic dangers such as people being violently killed, tortured, sexually abused, and so forth in a game with young people; and I don't drop stuff like that in my games if I think it will upset anyone in the group. It's just not worth it.
That being said, some of us have been the victims of sexual molestation and sexual abuse, and aren't always as fragile as you'd believe us to be. I myself fall into the category of someone who was sexually abused (and I didn't speak of it for a long time, or ever reported it, nor do I even hold anger for it), and several of my close girlfriends have been victims of actual sexual assault; but don't fall apart watching Law & Order: SVU. Just pointing that out.
EDIT: Just to let everyone know, the above examples aren't really common either. Just things that have come up at one point or another. It can be just as fun to play a more light hearted campaign as well. I know one of my favorites was with my little brother when he was about 4, where he played the brave knight Sir Wallace Van'tiel, who slew the dragon and rescued the princesses and rode little kids around on his horse. It was a game where the goblins ran away, the monsters fell down, and so forth. A child's game, and yet still one of my favorites. It all depends on your audience.
worst thing a GM ever did to me was kill me with my own pet.
the GM basically had a vampire of sorts posses my pet when we killed it. apparently there was absolutely no way to notice this and when the group slept that night the possessed pet coup de graced me for no particular reason before sneaking off to continue its life as a vampire.
as a GM I think the worst thing i did was present the group with leveled goblins. the group of players just couldnt grasp the concept of goblins that didnt go down in one hit and kept fighting till to TPK
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)
I was in a campaign where my DM gave us like 15 levels in one session, I was a magic user and so I invested a my levels into being a wizard. It was a lot of freaking work picking out those spells and feats and making someone that was good at spell casting. Especially in this high magic world, my DM even encouraged my advancement into magic. Next session, magic dies, my character is suddenly useless. Oh hey, those magic swords everyone found still work though because it runs off different magic. I was reduced down to being ineffective, having little health, and feats spent on magic that I can't even use. Not to mention actually advancing in a more effective class is really difficult when you're 'epic' level.
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It's honestly more than a bit depressing how often rape turns up in GM/player horror story threads.
Most evil GMing I've done:
Curse of the Crimson Throne spoilers:
We had another half-elf PC whose human mother was Shoanti, born and raised on the Storval Plateau. In her backstory, she pointedly did not know anything about her elven father.
They learned about the Cinderlander at the midpoint of the campaign. On the tail end of a series of bad developments, Shoanti half-elf's player has a minor freakout over the just-imagined notion of the Cinderlander being her father.
She met her actual father, who turned out to not be the Cinderlander.
The Cinderlander was just her and the other half-elf's uncle, responsible for the Varisian-half-elf father's death(possibly) and the Shoanti-half-elf father's self-imposed exile.
Things got a little bit darker, but it did pull the two half-elves, and the Korvosan and Shoanti characters, closer together as a party.
Kind of tame, really.
Not run.
I have a tie for the worst:
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)
Second, the DM adopts on-the-fly house rules that are detrimental for the PCs. Example: All wish spells have drawbacks, no matter the source. So you wish your party out of the enemy stronghold, on board your ship, headed away from danger. *Poof* Wish granted. Oh, and you're all naked. You wished your party out of there, but didn't specify you wanted to take your gear with you. *snicker*
Had a high speed character, adapted to quick moving and skirmishing. Dm gave me damage for moving quickly through an orchard (you know, with rows, trees, etc). Damage for using my abilities, from leaves. Said it was because I wasn't wearing armour.
..?
The good news, mockery and asking where that is in the rules did prevent a repeat. On the fly house rules that are detrimental for the Pcs, I've seen em. The same character also took greatsword damage from fumbling a pot of hot soup as he attempted to use a spoon and failed his reflex save (he has a terrible reflex save). Yes, better than alchemists fire. I was so impressed. The soup jokes, they have not stopped.
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Great sword damage from soup? Thenceforth the barbarian did not wield a greatsword into battle, but instead dual wielded twin pots of hot soup enchanted to be ever filling with the most delicious stew imaginable.
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)I was in a campaign where my DM gave us like 15 levels in one session, I was a magic user and so I invested a my levels into being a wizard. It was a lot of freaking work picking out those spells and feats and making someone that was good at spell casting. Especially in this high magic world, my DM even encouraged my advancement into magic. Next session, magic dies, my character is suddenly useless. Oh hey, those magic swords everyone found still work though because it runs off different magic. I was reduced down to being ineffective, having little health, and feats spent on magic that I can't even use. Not to mention actually advancing in a more effective class is really difficult when you're 'epic' level.
Did you just laugh like a jackal, tear up your character sheet and ask "that was b&*$%@#$ ____. Are you going to pull a repeat of that again? Or should I make a new character?"
Yeah, one terrible dm, I threw my character sheet at him after some particularly offensive calls, left and engineered the end of his game.
Great sword damage from soup? Thenceforth the barbarian did not wield a into battle, but instead dual wielded twin pots of hot soup enchanted to be ever filling with the most delicious stew imaginable.
Yeah! As a friend of mine said, "2d6? Wow, people eat that stuff?"
:D < troll face.
Great sword damage from soup? Thenceforth the barbarian did not wield a into battle, but instead dual wielded twin pots of hot soup enchanted to be ever filling with the most delicious stew imaginable.
What is the strength modifier for soup?
Yeah! As a friend of mine said, "2d6? Wow, people eat that stuff?"
so soup is doing more damage than being set on fire (1d6) or being blasted with most 1st level spells (at levels 1-3).
i have heard bad calls before, but that sounds like something of a kicker.
It was magnificent in its own way. And one of the first things that happened in a poor game. Scout and others woke up from being drunk with the party, and he went to get breakfast.
Greatsword breakfast damage...
I still ate the soup, he didn't give me any more damage. If we had started level 1, I could have easily gone to dying.
Well if the GMG has taught us anything, it's that your average barmaid is a $@#@#$ $@&#(%$ ninja with a frying pan, a platter, and some ale. :P
Melee serving tray +1 (1d4) or frying pan +1 (1d6 plus 1 fire [if hot])
Ranged drinking glass +2 (1d4 plus dazzled 1 round [drink in eyes])
The 2d6 soup came up to ten damage, now my bestiary tells me it could have dropped a 210 pound average orc, easily. I feel lucky the character survived the soup encounter; no I didn't get any xp.
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The 2d6 soup came up to ten damage, now my bestiary tells me it could have dropped a 210 pound average orc, easily. I feel lucky the character survived the soup encounter; no I didn't get any xp.
does it count as a trap? if so, can you disarm your breakfast with disable device?
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I have a tie for the worst:
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)
Second, the DM adopts on-the-fly house rules that are detrimental for the PCs. Example: All wish spells have drawbacks, no matter the source. So you wish your party out of the enemy stronghold, on board your ship, headed away from danger. *Poof* Wish granted. Oh, and you're all naked. You wished your party out of there, but didn't specify you wanted to take your gear with you. *snicker*
Had a high speed character, adapted to quick moving and skirmishing. Dm gave me damage for moving quickly through an orchard (you know, with rows, trees, etc). Damage for using my abilities, from leaves. Said it was because I wasn't wearing armour.
..?
The good news, mockery and asking where that is in the rules did prevent a repeat. On the fly house rules that are detrimental for the Pcs, I've seen em. The same character also took greatsword damage from fumbling a pot of hot soup as he attempted to use a spoon and failed his reflex save (he has a terrible reflex save). Yes, better than alchemists fire. I was so impressed. The soup jokes, they have not stopped.
Yeah, the guy that did the wish perversion also made us roll attack rolls against inanimate objects, like doors. (This was back in 2nd ed.) We were also using critical hits and fumbles. One of our players will never live down the time his barbarian fumbled and accidentally killed himself while chopping through a door in a castle with an axe. "Killed by a door" is still the most ignominious death on our list of bad ways for characters to die. After hearing your tale, we'll have to add "death by soup" to the list.
:D
Yes, that is how it should be. You can also survive your breakfast with enough hp. DARE YOU EAT THE CHEERIOS?
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Yeah, the guy that did the wish perversion also made us roll attack rolls against inanimate objects, like doors. (This was back in 2nd ed.) We were also using critical hits and fumbles. One of our players will never live down the time his barbarian fumbled and accidentally killed himself while chopping through a door in a castle with an axe. "Killed by a door" is still the most ignominious death on our list of bad ways for characters to die. After...I have a tie for the worst:
First, going into a campaign with a new character, which you design with the established campaign in mind (i.e. an urban setting.) Then, once you're in the campaign with a character optimized for the setting, the DM turns around and changes things, leaving the character largely useless (i.e. as soon as the urban rogue/diviner designed as an information broker arrives, the party heads out into the desolate wilderness.)
Second, the DM adopts on-the-fly house rules that are detrimental for the PCs. Example: All wish spells have drawbacks, no matter the source. So you wish your party out of the enemy stronghold, on board your ship, headed away from danger. *Poof* Wish granted. Oh, and you're all naked. You wished your party out of there, but didn't specify you wanted to take your gear with you. *snicker*
Had a high speed character, adapted to quick moving and skirmishing. Dm gave me damage for moving quickly through an orchard (you know, with rows, trees, etc). Damage for using my abilities, from leaves. Said it was because I wasn't wearing armour.
..?
The good news, mockery and asking where that is in the rules did prevent a repeat. On the fly house rules that are detrimental for the Pcs, I've seen em. The same character also took greatsword damage from fumbling a pot of hot soup as he attempted to use a spoon and failed his reflex save (he has a terrible reflex save). Yes, better than alchemists fire. I was so impressed. The soup jokes, they have not stopped.
That is the perfect time for take 10s. The door also has no anatomy so cannot be critted.
Can you imagine it?
DM: roll to hit the door.
Player: what? Is it moving?
DM: no, roll.
Player: am I under stress?
DM: no, roll.
Player: then I can take ten, jeez man read the rules. Lumberjacks don't fight trees and dart back and forth, looking for an opening. It's a task of time and effort, not the water dance.
Stunning a character for multiple rounds (with no save every round to get un-stunned) in multiple combats in a row.
Which is basically watching your friends have fun while you sit there and do nothing.
What doesn't give a save versus stun?
Stunning a character for multiple rounds (with no save every round to get un-stunned) in multiple combats in a row.
Which is basically watching your friends have fun while you sit there and do nothing.
once had something similar happen with hold person, but that was sheer bad luck rather than evil DMing. the player couldn't make the save even after the party mage (me) hit him with protection from evil (extra save and a plus 2 on saves).
Mm, I'd much prefer a great fort and will to having a superb reflex. I'd take the damage rather than have a good chance of not playing due to mind-affecting, poison, stun, hold etc.
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The 2d6 soup came up to ten damage, now my bestiary tells me it could have dropped a 210 pound average orc, easily. I feel lucky the character survived the soup encounter; no I didn't get any xp.
You poor thing. *hugs* It's okay now. That GM can't hurt you anymore. :(
Nooo! Not the soup!
This is why I am a red skeleton. It was tomato soup.
Mmm, it is a little sad. Lol, I suppose the players could always weird out the dm, by going with it, and starting to work with their new dickwolves masters.
Player of raped character: So, I take their torture and offer to join their side. What quests do they have? They seem pretty fair employers. Its like fantasy Oz.
DM: :O
Player: all aboard the rape campaign!
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Mmm, it is a little sad. Lol, I suppose the players could always weird out the dm, by going with it, and starting to work with their new dickwolves masters.
Player of raped character: So, I take their torture and offer to join their side. What quests do they have? They seem pretty fair employers. Its like fantasy Oz.
DM: :O
Player: all aboard the rape campaign!
As a victim of sexual abuse, I have to say, sir...
That's actually kind of hilarious... ಠ_ಠ"
That is the perfect time for take 10s. The door also has no anatomy so cannot be critted.
Can you imagine it?
DM: roll to hit the door.
Player: what? Is it moving?
DM: no, roll.
Player: am I under stress?
DM: no, roll.
Player: then I can take ten, jeez man read the rules. Lumberjacks don't fight trees and dart back and forth, looking for an opening. It's a task of time and effort, not the water dance.
Hitting a stationary object is automatic if you spend a full round action to hit it.
Mayhaps you should read up on the rules a little? :P
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No full attack then. Also might want to keep expertise up against the door!
That is the perfect time for take 10s. The door also has no anatomy so cannot be critted.
Can you imagine it?
DM: roll to hit the door.
Player: what? Is it moving?
DM: no, roll.
Player: am I under stress?
DM: no, roll.
Player: then I can take ten, jeez man read the rules. Lumberjacks don't fight trees and dart back and forth, looking for an opening. It's a task of time and effort, not the water dance.Hitting a stationary object is automatic if you spend a full round action to hit it.
Mayhaps you should read up on the rules a little? :P
This was why I mentioned that it was 2nd edition when I told the "death by door" story. No take 10s...also, no hard and fast rules about doing damage to objects with weapons. Hence, plenty of room for a DM to make up stupid rules on the fly that cause much sorrow which can later be turned into hilarity after the fact.
Or can you think of something MUCH WORSE?
I think the worst possible thing a DM could do is to not show up for the game. However, I'd heard enough horror stories about bad DMs, that maybe showing up is the worst thing they could do. Sort of a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation.
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No full attack then. Also might want to keep expertise up against the door!
So it doesn't hit you on the way out? :D
God there is a lot of whining in this thread. Worst thing a gm can do: not let the players win or not cater to their every special wish.
*ahem* Trolly troll is trolling.
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*Reads thread*
What is wrong with these people? Sexual assault in a game without warning is one of the worst things you can do, especially if you have no idea about what has happened in the lives of the players and their loved ones.
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How about a four page cryptogram with made up symbols and combined letters like 'st' and 'th'. Campaign couldn't continue until the puzzle was solved. Took about a month.
I did something similar recently, but I let the PCs make linguistics skill checks or use spells to get hints. (This word is "the", this letter is "ch", etc) They solved the cypher quickly, but transcribing the message took over an hour, which was a lot longer than I expected.
Aaaaand unfortunately, the deciphered message was a logic puzzle which took them over two hours (thankfully, out of game and away from the table between sessions) to solve. Probably won't be doing that again.
*Reads thread*
What is wrong with these people? Sexual assault in a game without warning is one of the worst things you can do, especially if you have no idea about what has happened in the lives of the players and their loved ones.
I suspect the reason it comes up so often is it's a reliable way of upping the emotional stakes and establishing that a character is nasty. If your audience reads action books or watches action movies they're probably a little numb to assault, battery and even murder - so if you want to make them despise your villain, you need something with a little more oomph.
(This sounds a little flippant as I re-read it, which I didn't really intend. Because of my own experience and the experiences of some girls I care about, I'm not able to relax enough about SA to want it in my games. However, if some other group knows that they can use it as a device to ramp up tension without stressing anybody out or desensitizing anybody...go for it, I guess.)
*Reads thread*
What is wrong with these people? Sexual assault in a game without warning is one of the worst things you can do, especially if you have no idea about what has happened in the lives of the players and their loved ones.
I suspect the reason it comes up so often is it's a reliable way of upping the emotional stakes and establishing that a character is nasty. If your audience reads action books or watches action movies they're probably a little numb to assault, battery and even murder - so if you want to make them despise your villain, you need something with a little more oomph.
(This sounds a little flippant as I re-read it, which I didn't really intend. Because of my own experience and the experiences of some girls I care about, I'm not able to relax enough about SA to want it in my games. However, if some other group knows that they can use it as a device to ramp up tension without stressing anybody out or desensitizing anybody...go for it, I guess.)
It's kind of one of the biggest Kick the Dog acts you can drop, almost assuredly crossing the moral event horizon in the eyes of most. Interestingly, 3.5 Loyalists obviously tongue-in-cheek comment about throwing your evil GM a loop by joining the bad guys after suffering at their hands is more common in media than you might think; because everyone knows being tortured makes you evil right? σ_σ
The more you know? <(?.?)>== 彡ミ☆ミ彡ミ☆