I know that it isn't going to mean anything vs. spellcasters (can it deflect ray spells?), and won't be a HUGE deal against enemies with dangerous full-attacks, but it seems like it just turns off charges and several other major attack forms. No opposed roll or action has me feeling rather hesitant to allow this.
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Is Crane Wing over-powered? Should I allow it in my game?
No. Yes.
I don't see a problem with it - it is mostly going to be used by monks, and monks have some trouble standing toe-to-toe with bbeg's, yet most of their offensive abilities rely on being able to stand and take full attacks. This gives them some added ability to get off a few full attacks before needing to retreat and heal.
Even on a full-base-attack class I don't see a problem because of the feat investment to get there. A fighter is either choosing to be an unarmed fighter, which is certainly not optimal, or is throwing a bunch of feats at attaining this one, and is then forgoing a lot of more effective damage output, or defensive options.
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The monk in my game has it and it makes most of my monsters look like useless losers. You're right, it negates charges no questions asked. Then, when he gets his AC up to 29 (and often 30+ with divine buffs), I'm lucky if I hit him once a round to have him laugh my attack off followed by his full attack. He also has Crane Reposte, adding to his staggering combo of damage output and defensive abilities.
His hp is pretty low, however, so if I landed half again as many actual hits per combat he'd drop pretty often. It isn't a fun trade off, but I have to say it is a fair trade off.
Well, my concern is both with this character in particular and the group as a whole. It's looking like one player is looking to be a high-AC striker (fighter/rogue combo), another a high-AC summoner (he says he'll be hitting around 34 at level 10), and this guy who is looking at AC, Crane Wing and In Harm's Way. That's looking to be a lot of untouchable party members.
This just seems like the most egregious portion of all of that. If you guys think it's okay, though, I'll let it go.
You'd be surprised what is and is not untouchable. I had a sword-and-board fighter who could crank his ac into the 40's by 8th level, and he got hit his fair share, and certainly did not keep the healer in the party from having to work some in-combat healing on him.
Not overpowered, yes you should allow it. No it can't stop rays, because it only works on melee attacks. I do think it deflects melee touch, though (pretty easy to imagine a wrist grab or arm lock to prevent delivery). At least with melee touch you hold the charge till it connects.
It might be strong at level 1-3 when a Master of Many Styles can get it, since many foes will only have one melee attack. But...plenty have more (and anyone can choose to take horrific penalties to TWF if necessary), nothing is forcing you to throw solo encounters at the group, and...MoMS gave up flurry for it. So, still not overpowered.
As far as tanking goes, if players devote too many resources to defense, their offense will be garbage* and foes will just ignore them to go after the actual threats. The "turtle's dilemma." And if the entire party has out of whack AC, that just means foes will have to come with higher attack bonuses. CR is not an exact science. If the players' numbers are grossly above or below the norm, DM has to compensate.
*Except in the case of your Summoner player (I'm assuming Synthesist?). Summoners are stupidly powerful. He can raise his AC to massive levels AND have huge damage and reach with evolutions without sacrificing in either area. Just my opinion, though.
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Don't forget that he MUST fight defensively to benefit from crane style. If he is caught off guard, or otherwise not fighting defensively, he can't negate an attack directed against him. Also, make sure he's applying the appropriate penalties.
If all the rules are being followed, than there is nothing overpowering about crane style and its successors.
I glanced through the styles, and some of them seem really powerful. Like Boar Style, by the third feat, every time you hit with two unarmed attacks, you do an additional 3d6 bleed damage.
I'm glad I habitually disallow anything non-CRB without approval and extensive look through for brokenosity.
It's not broken either.
Yeah, the best part of Boar Style is the 2d6 bleed from the first feat. The third isn't even really worth taking.
*Except in the case of your Summoner player (I'm assuming Synthesist?). Summoners are stupidly powerful. He can raise his AC to massive levels AND have huge damage and reach with evolutions without sacrificing in either area. Just my opinion, though.
Yeah, he's looking at a Synthesist. Not all that familiar with Summoners though, or where I can find Synth. Asked him to clarify some things, but your summation is about what I interpreted from his character build...was seeing a lot of offense and a stupidly high AC to go with it, AND spells.
My inclination is to see how things go, but I do also know that I can get a bit discouraged as a DM if I find the players steamrolling encounters too much.
The thing is, overall Synthesist is weaker than normal summoner, because a normal summoner can cast spells as his eidolon simultaneously melee attacks. Synth. has to choose to do one or the other each round and thus loses in the "action economy." However, Synthesist is VERY good at making melee classes look bad, since it basically allows you to have all good ability scores (you use the eidolon's physical scores, so you dump your own and maximize your mentals), POUNCE, lots of natural attacks, a crapton of natural armor + mage armor spell, and size large at level 8 huge at 13. And you can still use enlarge person to get bigger. And there's a reach evolution for even more reach, and an evo to boost natural weapon damage, and...
You get the point.
Of course, a regular eidolon can do all that, too. It's just less efficient because you can't min-max the stats, have to share body slots for magic items, and regular eidolon will have much less feats to spend than a Synthesist will on itself.
It's once each round. It's really, really good - a character-defining feat - but it can be worked around by simply having more than one thing attack the monk. Don't get me wrong - it's amazing - but it doesn't suddenly make the monk immune to melee attacks or anything.
No, it is not overpowered.
Any creature with 2 or more attacks can get around it.
Yes, it is overpowered. You will regret allowing it in your game.
I'm curious to know why you believe this. Have you had a bad experience with these feats in your games? If so, would you please cite some examples?
If, for some reason, you consider Crane wing overpowered, then you must consider Deflect arrows overpowered. Collecting a series of feats to avoid one attack per round. I would hate to see what else you thought is overpowered if you considered these so.
To be fair, significantly more creatures have melee weapon attacks than ranged weapon attacks (in most campaigns, at least) and Crane Wing is, as a result, way more powerful than Deflect Arrows. It's within the band of acceptable power level in my experience, but it's totally disingenuous to say that "Deflect Arrows is fine" implies that "Crane Wing is fine". Crane Wing is a really powerful feat (in most standard campaigns). Deflect Arrows is not (in most standard campaigns).
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For the cost of one feat (Deflect Arrows), a monk can laugh off an Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray once per round. For the cost of two feats (Crane Style, Crane Wing), he can laugh off one melee attack per round.
First, Deflect Arrows does not block magical ranged attacks, only mundane non-siege ranged attacks.
Second, even if it could, it would only block one ray out of the three scorching ray is capable of producing.
Third, it's not a two feat investment to negate ONE melee attack each round. The character must also fight defensively. Many are the situations in which that will not be an option.
I think that it is overpowered. Also, I don't like the way of working. I use it in this way.
Crane style let you avoid one melee attack, but you have to make a hit throw that you use as armor class. You apply all bonuses, but not enanchment bonus. Instead you add the dodge bonus you get from fighting defensively or total defense.
Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.
Same for similar feats. Deflect arrows need a hit throws with all bonuses you can apply to unarmed attack (this time even enanchment). Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.
Shield against arrows and shield against ray same thing, but use shield bonus.
I think that in this way is more funny and balanced.
I think that it is overpowered. Also, I don't like the way of working. I use it in this way.
Crane style let you avoid one melee attack, but you have to make a hit throw that you use as armor class. You apply all bonuses, but not enanchment bonus. Instead you add the dodge bonus you get from fighting defensively or total defense.
Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.Same for similar feats. Deflect arrows need a hit throws with all bonuses you can apply to unarmed attack (this time even enanchment). Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.
Shield against arrows and shield against ray same thing, but use shield bonus.
I think that in this way is more funny and balanced.
Alecstorm. from reading many of your posts it seems that you really hate a lot of the game, and have a "Vision" of how you want it to work.
At least to me that vision is not at all what the basic game calls out, but I suppose thats not bad, it's your game after all.Do you have a list of all these house rules you use?
I would actually love to see it, perhaps they do make the game better.
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My inclination is to see how things go, but I do also know that I can get a bit discouraged as a DM if I find the players steamrolling encounters too much.
It just means you need to have more variety in your encounters. Add in some terrain problems or environmental problems. Use ranged enemies in an area where movement costs double.
I find players tend to design characters that work with the game the DM runs. If you do mostly melee brawls then they will build for that. If you constantly surprise them with a variety of encounter styles then they will need to generalize more.
My inclination is to see how things go, but I do also know that I can get a bit discouraged as a DM if I find the players steamrolling encounters too much.It just means you need to have more variety in your encounters. Add in some terrain problems or environmental problems. Use ranged enemies in an area where movement costs double.
I find players tend to design characters that work with the game the DM runs. If you do mostly melee brawls then they will build for that. If you constantly surprise them with a variety of encounter styles then they will need to generalize more.
I do, actually. I think the majority of my encounters end up being melee-heavy, but I mix in a lot of terrain elements, traps within fights, spellcasters, archers, flying monsters...
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
That colossal red dragon that just smacked me with his tail? Yeah, I deflected it.
That melee touch attack from that Harm spell? Nope, not this time baby.
That natural 20 from a vorpal blade? Uh-uh, missed me!
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn't count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected.
That large giant that just threw a boulder at me? Man that hurt.
That maximised enervation? Oh god, I feel so weak now!
Those spikes from the manticore tail? For some reason, I couldn't deflect those!
Oh look, that goblin is aiming his bow at me! BRING IT ON SMALL FRY!!
As a GM I would be glad if my players weren't hit by a natural 20 from a vorpal blade, or that they were brought to -30 by a harm spell... just my opnion though.
I think that it is overpowered. Also, I don't like the way of working. I use it in this way.
Crane style let you avoid one melee attack, but you have to make a hit throw that you use as armor class. You apply all bonuses, but not enanchment bonus. Instead you add the dodge bonus you get from fighting defensively or total defense.
Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.Same for similar feats. Deflect arrows need a hit throws with all bonuses you can apply to unarmed attack (this time even enanchment). Monks use their monk level instead of BAB.
Shield against arrows and shield against ray same thing, but use shield bonus.
I think that in this way is more funny and balanced.
Alecstorm. from reading many of your posts it seems that you really hate a lot of the game, and have a "Vision" of how you want it to work.
At least to me that vision is not at all what the basic game calls out, but I suppose thats not bad, it's your game after all.Do you have a list of all these house rules you use?
I would actually love to see it, perhaps they do make the game better.
Lol i don't hate the game but indeeed i have a vision on how rules should work. Usually i change features that cancels something without a check or chance. Pass without trace, crane style, deflect arrow, etc, usually i put some changes to give a chance of "not working".
I have a list of house rules, i just have to translate in english. Maybe I should post it in the housebrew section.
Yeah, I wish Deflect Arrows worked on more things. It's really cool, but actual mundane archers are so uncommon / not a threat when they do come along. I honestly think the only times I've ever been shot at in a game by ranged weapons was by masses of low level mooks trying to contribute what they can against the unstoppable army-slaughtering juggernaut that is a high (or even mid-) level party. Well, that and when playing a flying and/or battlefield control caster when I've made it so an enemy has absolutely no means to reach me in melee combat and he breaks out his crappy ranged Plan B.
"one melee weapon attack"
Tail slap = natural attack, not melee weapon
Harm touch attack = touch attack, not melee weapon
Nat. 20 Vorpal = well, ya got me there
Natural weapons are melee weapons.
Weapon-like spells are weapons, and can benefit from weapon feats like Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (melee touch spells). All of those are melee weapon attacks.
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"one melee weapon attack"
Tail slap = natural attack, not melee weapon
Harm touch attack = touch attack, not melee weapon
Nat. 20 Vorpal = well, ya got me there
If someone has a natural attack, they are considered armed, as such, it is a weapon.
Any spell that makes a melee attack are weapons, touch attacks and rays, for instance, benefit from Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus and rays benefit from Improved Critical (ray).
Also, the point with the colossal dragon is the absurdity of the attack. A creature that is so large, that it drops turds larger than you, smacks you with a weapon, and you simply auto-deflect it? Doesn't really make sense. Picture a Rune Giant, a Gargantuan creature. Now picture it wielding a Warhammer. The Warhammer is also going to be Gargantuan. The head of the Warhammer is going to be larger than your body. But you deflected it.
[Edit] Totally got ninja'd.
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"one melee weapon attack"
Tail slap = natural attack, not melee weapon
Harm touch attack = touch attack, not melee weapon
Nat. 20 Vorpal = well, ya got me there
If someone has a natural attack, they are considered armed, as such, it is a weapon.
Any spell that makes a melee attack are weapons, touch attacks and rays, for instance, benefit from Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus and rays benefit from Improved Critical (ray).
Also, the point with the colossal dragon is the absurdity of the attack. A creature that is so large, that it drops turds larger than you, smacks you with a weapon, and you simply auto-deflect it? Doesn't really make sense. Picture a Rune Giant, a Gargantuan creature. Now picture it wielding a Warhammer. The Warhammer is also going to be Gargantuan. The head of the Warhammer is going to be larger than your body. But you deflected it.
[Edit] Totally got ninja'd.
A Gargantuan Dragon full attacks you, hitting you with his bite, claws, wings and tail but you're still standing AND acting at full capacity, 'cause you are a bare-chested Barbarian with 200 HP and that Dragon just took like 100 or so. Very realistic. Totally.
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Soooo, melee can't have nice things?
<Sorry, I had to.>
"one melee weapon attack"
Tail slap = natural attack, not melee weapon
Harm touch attack = touch attack, not melee weapon
Nat. 20 Vorpal = well, ya got me there
If someone has a natural attack, they are considered armed, as such, it is a weapon.
Any spell that makes a melee attack are weapons, touch attacks and rays, for instance, benefit from Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus and rays benefit from Improved Critical (ray).
Also, the point with the colossal dragon is the absurdity of the attack. A creature that is so large, that it drops turds larger than you, smacks you with a weapon, and you simply auto-deflect it? Doesn't really make sense. Picture a Rune Giant, a Gargantuan creature. Now picture it wielding a Warhammer. The Warhammer is also going to be Gargantuan. The head of the Warhammer is going to be larger than your body. But you deflected it.
[Edit] Totally got ninja'd.
Yes you did. Just like your buddy the Barbarian can get smacked head on with that self same hammer and not be immediately reduced to a paste. Just like you can punch a Colossal dragon, a scaly, armored beast the size of a castle, and do actual damage to it, and not break your arm in the process to boot. So yes, you defleceted it--because you're Karate Kid from the Legion of Super Heroes, who can put Superman in a headlock. Size matters not.
Soooo, melee can't have nice things?
<Sorry, I had to.>
That's not the question, the question was whether or not Crane Wing is overpowered, and should it be allowed. The GM side of me says no, but, depending on the player and his actions, I might allow it. If someone were to abuse it, for instance, mixing up all three Crane feats, to intercept an attack on another character, then deflecting it, every round, I would not allow it.
When I do and do not allow something in a game from UC, UM, and APG, it depends a lot on the person playing. I've got a friend that I need to keep a close eye on, because in all the role-playing video games, he has never once played a 'good' guy. In Warhammer, Warmachine, Magic, etc. he ALWAYS plays demonic, evil, undead, etc. armies or characters. Given the chance, he would love nothing more than to play that devil pact summoner, or that evil overlord lich.
I have to very closely adjudicate what he can and cannot play. While I have another friend who simply wants to play, and tries his best not to create too overpowered characters. He is one I would give Crane Wing to.
Then there are some feats like Cluster Shot that should never have been printed.
Soooo, melee can't have nice things?
<Sorry, I had to.>
The problem is that feat is not only for melee, but is against melee.
Tell you player that play a 2h weapon melee that even a wizard or bard can deflect his first attack without a check.I strongly suggest to give those feats that deflect attacks a check, so they can fail.
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Soooo, melee can't have nice things?
<Sorry, I had to.>
The problem is that feat is not only for melee, but is against melee.
Tell you player that play a 2h weapon melee that even a wizard or bard can deflect his first attack without a check.I strongly suggest to give those feats that deflect attacks a check, so they can fail.
Both Wizard and Bard can have mirror image and displacement up, which will screw up the 2h melee ten times more than Crane Wing.
But those are magical, so they're getting a blank check for anything because duuuuh, magic is magic!
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It doesn't bother me in the slightest that there are people out there who think these feats are overpowered. What DOES bother me, is that not one of these naysayers has posted their stances as a result from personal experience. Not one has given any examples of play from their games demonstrating how these feats could be overpowered.
The haters just be hatin' yall'.
I find it almost humorous, too, that almost everyone who HAS had gameplay experience with these feats appears to have reached a consensus of "not overpowered."
That, to me at least, is answer enough to the question.
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The problem is that feat is not only for melee, but is against melee.
Tell you player that play a 2h weapon melee that even a wizard or bard can deflect his first attack without a check.
Then tell your player that the 2HF hit him twice with his two-handed weapon, used pushing assault and took a step back to full attack with ridiculous damage all the while limiting him to moving in and striking only once this round. Oh, and the guy is enlarged, so you are getting an AoO to close the gap at the same time.
Or see the wizard make you fall in a 30 feet deep hole full of acid, and prey you are a wizard with fly prepared and a good concentration check.
If someone were to abuse it, for instance, mixing up all three Crane feats, to intercept an attack on another character, then deflecting it, every round, I would not allow it.
Three feats to deflect one attack per round while taking an attack penalty ? Hardly cheesy in any way.
If you're the kind of DM who throws few ennemies with few attacks then complain, then don't, learn the concept of action economy and begin doing worthy or more numerous foes. A guy with the three crane feats isn't going to deal lots of damage, why attack him ? Why isn't the guy getting banged on by mooks ? Lucky strikes happen and will usually strike hard on guys with a so big defense.
The problem is that feat is not only for melee, but is against melee.
Tell you player that play a 2h weapon melee that even a wizard or bard can deflect his first attack without a check.I strongly suggest to give those feats that deflect attacks a check, so they can fail.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Given the prereq's, I am fully ok with this... Besides, my rogue friend over there (yeah behind your wizard) will appreciate said wizard wasting his 1 deflect per round.
If someone were to abuse it, for instance, mixing up all three Crane feats, to intercept an attack on another character, then deflecting it, every round, I would not allow it.Three feats to deflect one attack per round while taking an attack penalty ? Hardly cheesy in any way.
If you're the kind of DM who throws few ennemies with few attacks then complain, then don't, learn the concept of action economy and begin doing worthy or more numerous foes. A guy with the three crane feats isn't going to deal lots of damage, why attack him ? Why isn't the guy getting banged on by mooks ? Lucky strikes happen and will usually strike hard on guys with a so big defense.
Actually, it's two feats to deflect one attack per round, the third style allows an attack of opportunity when he does deflect the attack. I was thinking of the Bodyguard-In Harms Way feats which allows one to Aid Another and then intercept the attack. Combine that with Crane Wing, and one could intercept, and then deflect, the attack.
Granted, that is 4 feats, but Crane Wing isn't available until 5th level, so 4 defensive feats wouldn't be too hard to pull off. The Monk that chose those feats would be one of the best support guys or bodyguards around.
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Actually, it's two feats to deflect one attack per round, the third style allows an attack of opportunity when he does deflect the attack. I was thinking of the Bodyguard-In Harms Way feats which allows one to Aid Another and then intercept the attack. Combine that with Crane Wing, and one could intercept, and then deflect, the attack.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
That's a 4-feats tax. Less if you are a monk or fighter. In the first case then congrats', you are a d8 class without offense. In the second case, congrat', you're a melee class without offense.
I've seen a lot of discussion and builds about these feats, and I'm still not impressed. You are getting a high AC for a low return on offense and while it's a cool gimmick, it is nowhere near what I would consider almost borderline overpowered.
It's situationally overpowered. Other times it's weak. Sometimes it's even balanced.