Synthesist saving throws

[joeyfixit]

How does a Synthesist calculate saving throw bonuses? My feeling is that since the Synthesist retains her own mental scores, Will should be the same as the Summoner.

But what about Fort and Dex? Since the Synthesist's Eidelon generates it's own ability scores, does one simply use the Eidelon's Good/Bad saves, or does own use the Summoner saves (adding bonuses from multiclassing), adding Physical bonuses from the Eidelon? Or does one take the Eidelon's Good/Bad save + multiclass bonus + ability scores, like BAB (according to errata)? Or some third thing?

[sanguine]

AFAIK, you use your base saves.

You add your Modifiers.

(Remember that you gain the Eidolon's Str/Dex/Con Scores, so you effectively gain their Modifier on Fort and Reflex saves and your normal Wisdom modifier on Will saves.)

You don't use the Eidolon's Saves or it's ability modifiers.

[joeyfixit]

sanguine wrote:

AFAIK, you use your base saves.

You add your Modifiers.

(Remember that you gain the Eidolon's Str/Dex/Con Scores, so you effectively gain their Modifier on Fort and Reflex saves and your normal Wisdom modifier on Will saves.)

You don't use the Eidolon's Saves or it's ability modifiers.

Ok, do you have quote/errata to back this up?

[sanguine]

Quote:

Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner, the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon's actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.

The Relevant points are in bold.

[sanguine]

The only thing I think needs explaining is the last part I've bolded.

As it is the 'Eidolon' Summoner class ability that summons the eidolon as a separate creature and a Synthesist does not get that ability you do not gain it's base saves.

At no point does the RAW say you gain the Eidolon's base saves, therefore you do not gain the eidolon's base saves.

[Buri]

I'll be a necromancer for today.

No, but the rules do say they fuse into one creature. This tells me I get everything the eidolon does. The fact that block of text explains what I don't get rather than simply stating what I do get reinforces this thinking.

[Akane Mori and Yoroi]

You use your base saves, not the Eidolon's. You add the Eidolon's Dex and Con modifiers to your saves, though.

[Buri]

If we're one creatures and I gain all his special abilities and evolutions with the only exceptions being it doesn't get feats or skills, how do I not also gain its resilience against other forms of attack?

[Cheapy]

There is this post, although I suspect Sean may have just been repeating what RD was asking without double checking.

[Seranov]

Buri wrote:

If we're one creatures and I gain all his special abilities and evolutions with the only exceptions being it doesn't get feats or skills, how do I not also gain its resilience against other forms of attack?

By your reading, you would also use the Eidolon's Will save. Does that really make any sense to you?

The Synthesist does not gain the Eidolon's base saves, he uses his own, with the Eidolon's ability modifiers for Dex and Con added to his base saves.

[Buri]

Sure.

@Cheapy, I don't quite get how your citation applies here. There's a question about the ability increase and the split ability but nothing about saves or a general reasoning for things you may or may not get in a generic manner.

[Cheapy]

The possibly relevant section is this:

Quote:

So you lose out on the phys scores, saves, temp hp, but you both have the evolutions...

Still, I'm fairly uneasy about that one, and would like to check the original wording on the synthesist, pre-errata.

[Buri]

Right. I could understand that during the split you'd lose the save bonuses as well. But while fused is what I'm curious about.

[Cheapy]

Ah hah, pretty sure that was just confusion based on what RD said.

Yo.

Yo yo.

Spoiler:

Yo Yo Ma

[Buri]

Mind if I PM my future questions to you directly? :D

Thanks!

[Cheapy]

You wouldn't be the first :p