Hi.
The Samurai Archetype from the Jade Regent Primer is now on PFSRD.
What do people think?
Good?
Bad?
Worth the trade of Mount/ Banner?
Personally I thought it would be an Archetype that just got Weapon Training in The Katana.
I DID NOT see this coming.
Not sure how I feel about it...
iatsu strike- is a full round action. That sucks because you can't move meaning you need to be adjacent to use it. If the BBEG closes with you first it could work but if he doesn't close that means you need to. I'd rather Charge and attack than close then do nothimg so i cam iatsu next round.
It does get good at 10. As a standard action you can close and strike for a big opening hit.
Brutal Slash and Terrifying iatsu are pretty good.
Deafening strike- WTF?! Is this ANY good?
Have yet to see what archetypes it stacks with it.
Non that is the only archetype for the Samurai, and technically the Samurai is just a extended archetype of Cavalier.
I love it, its what I was looking for to "fix" the samurai.
Probably the best thing you're gonna get for a Samurai-type class.
That said, feel free to ignore me. I'm a huge fan of Legend of the Five Rings, so anything asian and d20 just seems silly and wrong to me. ;)
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Where is the Iaijutsu Strike from?
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I guess this would not be the time to bring up the topic of L5R D20 :)
We L5R fans like to pretend that the time-period where WotC owned the rights just... didn't happen. :)
Samurai is a Cavalier. For feats, magic items, spells, archetypes, and anything else. This is RAW. A ninja is a rogue as well by the way too.
I'd like you to quote the section this came from, because all I can find is this.
"Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
Iai strike
Get free bonus damage, provided that you challenge your opponent and this full round action from the sheath must be your first attack against the opponent. Can only be used against the target once a day, and you can only make one iai swing per challenge. In return you suck up a bad AC penalty. Cool, conditionally awesome, but lackluster overall.
Gets better at level 10, but really it just makes it easier to perform. The structural problems of its very limited use are still present
Best thing about this is that it helps prevent the constantly sheathing nonsense that was the Oriental Adventures Iaijutsu Master. This is just the spiritual follow up to that prestige.
Never was a fan of "Draw sword = Moar power" which is this in a nutshell.
Brutal Slash
They didn't want to say that you automatically confirm threats on iai strikes, but that is basically what they are shooting for here. With the +2 from weapon expertise and +4 for the critical focus you probably are going to take, you win at confirmation.
Terrifying Iaijutsu
Shaken condition helps offset your AC penalty, and help cause saves to fail against your critical feats and abilities.
Roaring Iaijutsu
"lol whut?"
I dislike the thematic that my sword strike is so loud that it deafens everyone within 30ft. Though loud noises are selective and as such only enemies are effected. Regardless, it is a nifty area of effect debuff.
Overall.
It should have gotten the weapon master's weapon training, maybe borrow some other abilities from it and/or the kensai magus. As is, you give up the mount and all of the tactical advantage that it brings (when you can use it, of course) and you also lose the ability to prevent TPK through the party being routed by fear effects or compulsion/dominate taking over people. All of this is given up to let you take a shot at hitting the upper end of spike damage/debuff potential. With critical mastery, you can be looking at potentially dealing four debuffs at one time. Deafened, shaken, exhausted, stunned for example. Follow up with warrior order Strike True if you have it for a fifth condition like blind (and if you failed to critical before, probably will here). Within two turns you can nullify one combatant. Add to that the damage dealt from weapon spec+two handed power attack+challenge+iai strike damage and you have a master spiker. In a world with the printed variant called shot rules, this guy gets even more fatal. Same goes if using massive damage rules.
If using the ronin order instead, then chosen destiny gives him a 100% certain chance of hitting, and threatening with one iaijutsu strike. Without master gives him a virtual automatic confirmation with regard to a naturally threatening iaijutsu strike.
*deleted a weird double-post.*
As a base class. However it does not say it operates exactly as its associated class. Therefore a cavalier is a cavalier. a samurai is a samurai.
I like the sword saint, plenty. I'm not particularly fond of banner and mount; so this archetypes makes a samurai/cavalier wide open and accessible for me.
My issue is the strike is pretty much unusable until 10.
What are you gonna do? Rd1, Challenge BBEG, move in and smack for big damage. He hits you back. Rd 2 full attack.
Or
Challenge bad guy. Walk up and do nothing or use Antagonise to get him to come to you. Either way RD1= 0 damage.
Rd 2 iautsu strike.
Guess who did more damage over the 2 rounds. Option 1.
This problem fixes itself at 10. That is a long time.
I like it, though will probably house-rule that weapon expertise can sheathe a chosen weapon as a free action too so that the setting up the the iajutsu-strike-starts-with-weapon-sheathed part isn't such a giant action-economy time waster.
It's not very good. But just having an alternative to a mount class feature is good in my book. I have never seen a mount used in a campaign, at least not by PCs. Inevitably, big chunks of the adventure will take place in areas where riding just isn't feasible, and a character built to take advantage of a mount class feature will be nerfed. Meanwhile, a character who ignores their mount class feature, without access to an archetype to trade it out, has annoying dead levels.
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Jusy realised a Switch hitter can make it work without wasting attack actions.
Walk around with bow in hand. See bad dude. Shoot bad dude till he closes.
When bad dude closes, drop bow (free action), challenge (swift), Iautsu strike.
Profit!
Note: I know it never says that it must be a katana, but we all know it is meant for taishou Katana-sama. So instead of saying sword I will say katana.
I like it, though will probably house-rule that weapon expertise can sheathe a chosen weapon as a free action too so that the setting up the the iajutsu-strike-starts-with-weapon-sheathed part isn't such a giant action-economy time waster.
If you are going to do that, you may as well just write out the whole bit of forcing it to be sheathed first instead. Cut out the middleman, save yourself some time and fix the real "problem". Indeed, that would functionally be the better plan, as it prevents players from asking if they can also free action sheath to prevent disarms and sunders and all kinds of other nonsense that could come up. I give it ten minutes before you have to houserule how many times in a round Katana-sama can draw and sheath his blade.
What are you gonna do? Rd1, Challenge BBEG, move in and smack for big damage. He hits you back. Rd 2 full attack.
Or
Challenge bad guy. Walk up and do nothing or use Antagonise to get him to come to you. Either way RD1= 0 damage.
Rd 2 iautsu strike.
Not a terrible assessment, but missing one component. You can challenge immediately prior actually making the iaijutsu strike, as challenge is a swift action. Depending on your reading of the rules, if you have the confidence you could even fight the enemy for a few rounds, then the round before you make the iaijutsu strike you do this.
Standard Action: AttackMove Action: Sheath
Next turn challenge then lay the iaijustu strike into him.
"After the sword saint has challenged a foe but before he has attacked the target of his challenge"
This could potentially be taken to be looking at you attacking while the challenge is active, or else to be looking at it at all. If you fight the guy then challenge, do you still get your iaijutsu strike? In any event, it is 100% certain that it will not work if you challenge and then make a regular attack. Mabey I am just dense, but could be a matter of RAI and RAW[. I would say functionally the "do not attack him" condition starts with the challenge and not prior, but I can understand (although it might be a degree obtuse*) saying that you cannot attack him at all prior to the iaijutsu strike. The ability isn't so amazing that I feel it really needs that hardcore interpretation.
Iaijutsu seems deadly when combined with Quick Draw.
EDIT: Could it be used with a Greatsword or other two-hander?
There is no restriction on the ability for one handed weapons. Technically, you could do it with a tetsubo.
===Aelryinth
Iaijutsu seems deadly when combined with Quick Draw.
EDIT: Could it be used with a Greatsword or other two-hander?There is no restriction on the ability for one handed weapons. Technically, you could do it with a tetsubo.
===Aelryinth
And you can put that tetsubo or whatever in any magical scabbard that is not exclusively for blade weapons.
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As a base class. However it does not say it operates exactly as its associated class. Therefore a cavalier is a cavalier. a samurai is a samurai.
God, will there even be one day without this kind of argument always hand in hand with a bold, false statement ?
There, there.
Quoting myself :
"Hope the words of Paizo's Creative Director are enough."
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Iaijutsu seems deadly when combined with Quick Draw.
. . .
Thank you for writing this, it actually points something out to me that is super important. Quick draw is not only deadly, it is required prior to level three.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
<Okay, we have the regular requirements for drawing a weapon established.>
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
<Alright, now we have the most relevant set of conditions for Katana-sama. Move is a defined action.>
Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
<Okay, now we have move defined, and have a fairly full picture of what it takes to draw a weapon. You can draw the weapon freely while taking a move action up to an opponent, and make an attack. Otherwise, if stationary or only taking a 5ft step, you must take a move action to draw your weapon. Now comes the killer.>
<Excerpt from Iaijutsu Strike (Ex)>
In order to use this ability, the sword saint’s weapon must be sheathed at the start of his turn.
If you don't take quick draw, you cannot take the full round action to do the swing because you cannot draw the weapon as part of the attack, and the weapon must be in the sheath at the beginning of the turn you use iaijutsu strike! You would have to draw your weapon the round prior in order to take a full attack, but then your weapon will not have started the turn in the sheath! *Insane laugh* At level three, you get Weapon Expertise (Ex) and are thereafter able to draw your selected weapon as a free action, thus resolving the problem. And creating another . . .
Alright, at level three, I essentially gain Quick Draw with one weapon, of which is almost certain to be my full time main weapon because of Weapon Expertise's other benefits. Quick Draw is a bit of a waste for Katana-sama because he gets this feature that replicates its effect. So if he wants to use Iaijutsu Strike before level three, he is forced to take a feat that he will for the most part be a waste after level three. I hope you let him retrain that feat if he wants.
My goodness . . .
. . .
EDIT: Could it be used with a Greatsword or other two-hander?
No, but any one-handed or light sword will work for reasons detailed farther down, but you won't get the fighter feats with most of those other weapons because of Weapon Expertise being an important part of the samurai class. Your practically optimal options are katana or wakizashi, with katana being the better choice overall.
And you can put that tetsubo or whatever in any magical scabbard that is not exclusively for blade weapons.There is no restriction on the ability for one handed weapons. Technically, you could do it with a tetsubo.
===Aelryinth
It must be a sword by RAW from the opening text . . .
"The following benefits apply only when a sword saint is using a sword and carrying nothing in his other hand."
"A sword saint can perform a lightning quick iaijutsu strike against the target of his challenge to inflict devastating wounds while drawing his sword."
And further, the note about nothing being in the other hand, the exact same wording used on the one-handed fighter archetype to prevent two-handing, seems to indicate that you get no two-handed power attack on the iaijutsu strike either. I was mistaken earlier when I figured that in. I suppose that at least you are not forced to one-hand after the iaijutsu strike.
This just keeps getting better as I keep reading it.
I would like to say that iconic iaijutsu strike is indeed one handed, and my goodness sanity would force me to house rule out naginata and tetsubo iaijutsu. Sure some iaijutsu works two handed, but the most iconic form that this is going for is one handed and I am fine with that. I don't want to be seeing nodachi and greatsword and double bladed sword draw strikes. So overall, kudos on clamping down on the Oriental Adventures nonsense of trying to see who can make the most absurd draw-strike character. The whole thing could use a revision, but context wise it is a lot tighter to theme.
<Edit: Fixed some self-contradiction and added even more text, in addition to some formatting revision.>
Thanks for the links Maxximilius. That gives me at least a decent idea regarding intent.
Perhaps the issue of archetype/alternate class interactions merits its own thread? Just wanting to avoid the risk of a thread jacking. Should more research be needed in that regard, it would get appropriate attention in another thread.
Past that, in my looking none of the cavalier archetypes really matter terribly much for this anyway. The number of different orders could affect it though, and attention may be merited with the relation to the cavalier orders, which are very much open game for the samurai.
@Normal Anomaly
The first line of the Iaijutsu strike description reads
"A sword saint can perform a lightning quick iaijutsu strike against the target of his challenge to inflict devastating wounds while drawing his sword."
So it's pretty clear that quick draw is not required to use the class feature. IMHO I think the mount and banner are more useful as class features. That having been said I think the Iaijutsu Strike is more useful than you give it credit since the Samurai has Quick Draw built in from level 3.
For example, my samurai never enters combat with his katana drawn. Against a single opponent he'll have his bow ready and act as a switch-hitter. Against a mob he'll be using a two-handed tripping weapon (and still doing good damage with Power Attack + Furious Focus). Only against an opponent worthy of a challenge will I switch to the katana anyways and with Sword Saint that first strike really hits hard.
For my samurai build I still prefer the mount (heavy armor = 20 ft base speed that can be mitigated by the mount) but Sword Saint is a much better archetype than you give it credit.
As written, there is a problem with issuing ranged weapons then challenging and iajutsu striking three same target. That problem is you can't use the strike after attacking a target. Challenging them doesn't reset the "before you attack" requirement - iajutsu strike must be the first attack you have made on the target.
Good point. Against a single BBEG the switch hitting tactic won't work. Still pretty good against a mob where you have to fight through the underlings to get to the boss.
Teach me not to read a full archetype!
Concur. Looks like a one-handed sword is the way to go. So, the biggest weapon you could use would be a bastard sword.
You can COMBINE the draw with a move action if you have +1 BAB. If you aren't moving, then it burns the move action.
Note, this works with a rapier and a shortsword. It's not restricted to slashing blades, as I read it.
==Aelryinth
Iaijutsu Strike (Ex)
A sword saint can perform a lightning quick iaijutsu strike against the target of his challenge to inflict devastating wounds while drawing his sword. After the sword saint has challenged a foe but before he has attacked the target of his challenge, he may choose to use his iaijutsu strike as a full-round action, making an attack roll with his weapon as normal. In order to use this ability, the sword saint’s weapon must be sheathed at the start of his turn. If he successfully hits his opponent with an iaijutsu strike, his attack deals an additional +1d6 points of damage. This bonus damage increases by an additional +1d6 at 3rd level and every two levels thereafter to a maximum of +10d6 damage at 19th level. Any extra damage as a result of a successful iaijutsu strike is not multiplied by a critical hit.
After making an iaijutsu strike, a sword saint takes a –4 penalty to his AC until his next turn, but his weapon is now drawn and he may continually to fight normally. Regardless of whether he hits his opponent with the iaijutsu strike, a sword saint cannot use this ability on the same foe more than once per day.
At 10th level, a sword saint learns to focus faster and is able to make an iaijutsu strike as a standard action, and the penalty to his AC is reduced to –2. This ability replaces a samurai’s mount.
The act of using the iaijutsu strike ability is a full-round action. It just requires that your weapon be sheathed ahead of time. You don't need to draw your weapon on one round and then attack someone as a full-round action on another. You use your full-round action to draw your weapon and attack your target with it as part of the iaijutsu strike ability. The only silly thing about it is that you can't do the strike faster once you have Quick Draw or weapon expertise.
You'd have to have Quick Draw, because it takes a move action to free your weapon.
If you're using a full-round action, you can't draw the sword...no move action available!
i.e., no Quick Draw, no iajitsu.
==Aelryinth
I believe drawing is part of the Iaijutsu, as stated.
"After the sword saint has challenged a foe but before he has attacked the target of his challenge, he may choose to use his iaijutsu strike as a full-round action, making an attack roll with his weapon as normal. In order to use this ability, the sword saint’s weapon must be sheathed at the start of his turn. ... After making an iaijutsu strike, a sword saint takes a –4 penalty to his AC until his next turn, but his weapon is now drawn and he may continually to fight normally. "
What if you carried two swords?
Move in and attack, then drop sword 1. Challenge and iaijutsu strike rd 2?
Not that my opinion will change the hearts and minds of the masses but the more I have read this thread the more it becomes clear to me that the actually drawing of the sword and striking is all part of the full round action just as others have stated. It is a special attack with special circumstances that just requires that you can't take a move action early on until level 10 when the ability changes to allow a move action.
I would also have to agree that switch hitting after your foe has closed the distance or attacking and then taking a move action the previous round to sheath your katana would work because it merely states that you have to choose this attack option after you have targeted a foe with your challenge ability but before you attack that targeted foe...the previous round he was just an ordinary foe...this round he is your targeted foe of your challenge which meets the requirement of Iaijutsu Strike. To me that all just makes sense.
I wish they'd read all of the class they were modifying when they created this alternative. At least one of the alternative features replaces something that does not exist and its closest approximate feature comes in a level later.
Furthermore, I might be remembering it wrong, but I believe I remember myself being disappointed that it didn't replace all of the Samurai's mount-related features. Most of them, sure, but you still get this one ability that you're never going to use and no, you can't replace it either.
Finally, it's a serviceable alternative to putting up with a mount, but it only works with one-handed weapons. Not enough. They could have done better.
...
Personally, I'm placing my hopes in the upcoming Advanced Races Guide. It will feature rules to create all sorts of different races, including Large size creatures and, more to the point, including quadrupedal Large size creatures.
They have to have realized that people might want to play a quadrupedal Cavalier (or Samurai, for that matter). Therefore, either they intend for Centaurs riding horses to be allowed, or they included alternatives so that quadrupedal races aren't at a disadvantage when they select this class or alternate class.