| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)
and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,
In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
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I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
Yes, they can. Alternate classes are still part of the base class. They are presented as standalone but that is presentation only. They are still the base class in all fundamentals, as is shown by the fact they can't take levels in the base class.
I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks for the new thread, Richard :-)
I still say you cannot use a rogue archetype for the ninja class. They are, as you quoted, "standalone classes", thus excluding the archetypes of the original class.
But hey, convince me otherwise :-)
@ ShadowcatX
d20pfsrd is perhaps not official Paizo, but the ultimate combat book is, and the text is from there if I'm not mistaken.
I would still be happy to get arguments on RAW or even a Paizo person who said something on the message board.
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I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks for the new thread, Richard :-)
I still say you cannot use a rogue archetype for the ninja class. They are, as you quoted, "standalone classes", thus excluding the archetypes of the original class.
But hey, convince me otherwise :-)
If that was the case, they could take levels in the original class. They can't. Ergo, they are the originasl class and can taek archetypes they qualify for. Tha'ts ignoring the fact that they have been described by Paizo staffers as "really big archetypes". That's all they are.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If that was the case, they could take levels in the original class. They can't. Ergo, they are the originasl class and can taek archetypes they qualify for. Tha'ts ignoring the fact that they have been described by Paizo staffers as "really big archetypes". That's all they are.I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks for the new thread, Richard :-)
I still say you cannot use a rogue archetype for the ninja class. They are, as you quoted, "standalone classes", thus excluding the archetypes of the original class.
But hey, convince me otherwise :-)
Not necessarily. The devs might have considered the possible combinations to be too powerful or abusive. For example, the scout archetype might have been considered too dangerous to be used with ninja.
Also, I wonder why there is no mentioning of alternate favorite class features - according to your interpretation I could take the same ones as for rogue? Even though it is named differently which usually without a specific note prevents it from being used that way?
It all comes down to "It is called Ninja, not Rogue, and there is no explicite mentioning that you can use the same archetypes, feats etc. that rogues can use." That's the problem I see.
I would like for them to be combinable, though. It would give a lot more options.
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here.
"In earlier editions of this game, we might have called these "sub-classes." An alternate class does NOT have a significant new core ability. It's basically just a glorified archetype."
"Technically, we could stat up ALL of the archetypes as alternate classes... but since most archetypes only swap out a few abilities, that'd kinda be a waste of space."
Here.
"Another option would be to present the ninja as a rogue archetype. But know what? That's basically what an alternate class is—an archetype. They just get a lot more swap-outs than most archetypes, and they're just formatted with all of those swap-outs done for you."
Here.
" "Oh oh! I thought of the *real* difference between archeypes and alternate classes: alternate classes get illustrations."
That's more true than you think, to be honest.
Another way to put it: Alternate classes are ones we want to particularly shine a spotlight on, either because we think that they're neat or because we think that there's fan demand for them."
Here.
"If we decide that presenting the ninja and the samurai and the gunslinger as alternative classes isn't a good idea and that it'd be better to present them simply as normal archetypes..."
Hope the words of Paizo's Creative Director are enough.
If that was the case, they could take levels in the original class. They can't. Ergo, they are the originasl class and can taek archetypes they qualify for. Tha'ts ignoring the fact that they have been described by Paizo staffers as "really big archetypes". That's all they are.I bet this has already been discussed on the board, but I can't find it.
Can I make a ninja/scout? Ninja has the stuff the scout replaces.
Quotes to note:
d20pfsrd.
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes. (thanks Sangalor for the quote)and
PF reference document.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features,In my opinion they seem to contradict each other.
Edit: if they can be mixed, I would suggest to errata the first quote to "they are presented as standalone classes" if it's not too much trouble.
Thanks for the new thread, Richard :-)
I still say you cannot use a rogue archetype for the ninja class. They are, as you quoted, "standalone classes", thus excluding the archetypes of the original class.
But hey, convince me otherwise :-)
Not necessarily. The devs might have considered the possible combinations to be too powerful or abusive. For example, the scout archetype might have been considered too dangerous to be used with ninja.
Also, I wonder why there is no mentioning of alternate favorite class features - according to your interpretation I could take the same ones as for rogue? Even though it is named differently which usually without a specific note prevents it from being used that way?
It all comes down to "It is called Ninja, not Rogue, and there is no explicite mentioning that you can use the same archetypes, feats etc. that rogues can use."...
I looked at it again and I change my opinion. The keyword is highlighted:
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
So far I have given more weight to the other parts of the text, but I now believe the bolded ones are more important. So yes, you can mix those archetypes with alternate classes - provided that the feature being replaced by an archetype is actually present in the alternate class.
For example, an archetype which replaced a rogue talent would not be permissable for a ninja because he gets ninja tricks and not rogue talents, which are different.I think this should be clarified either by FAQ or even better in an errata. Still, with the above restriction regarding archetype applicability I now see it the same way Richard does. :-)
If Dekalinder reads this, she/he can see what i was arguing with.
Not the stuff that was written there before.
Here.
"In earlier editions of this game, we might have called these "sub-classes." An alternate class does NOT have a significant new core ability. It's basically just a glorified archetype."
"Technically, we could stat up ALL of the archetypes as alternate classes... but since most archetypes only swap out a few abilities, that'd kinda be a waste of space."
Here.
"Another option would be to present the ninja as a rogue archetype. But know what? That's basically what an alternate class is—an archetype. They just get a lot more swap-outs than most archetypes, and they're just formatted with all of those swap-outs done for you."
Here.
" "Oh oh! I thought of the *real* difference between archeypes and alternate classes: alternate classes get illustrations."
That's more true than you think, to be honest.
Another way to put it: Alternate classes are ones we want to particularly shine a spotlight on, either because we think that they're neat or because we think that there's fan demand for them."
Here.
"If we decide that presenting the ninja and the samurai and the gunslinger as alternative classes isn't a good idea and that it'd be better to present them simply as normal archetypes..."
Hope the words of Paizo's Creative Director are enough.
Thanks Maxximilius :-)
You are too late though - I already changed my opinion :-P
At best we have a rules contradiction. I think it is FAQ time since UC flat out says no combining.
edit:ninja'd
The book needs to show intent because a lot of people don't get online to look at dev comments so I still think it should be FAQ'd. :)
Also there should be a FAQ on the question if an extra rogue talent can substitute for ninja tricks. Since the ninja can take a rogue talent, even multiple times, they actually have that class feature. This also contradicts the statement that an archetype that replaces a rogue talent can not be taken by a ninja. Rogue talents are not rogue abilities.
Anyway i don´t know just now of archetypes that replace rogue talents instead of abilities, so i guess that was just a confusion.
Concerning the archetypes i think ninja = rogue.
The main problem here is more if poison use and no trace count as alternative class features or can substitute for trapfinding and trap sense.
There should be no doubt about uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Perhaps you could even replace ki pool for something that replaces evasion, but it would be kind of questionable why take a ninja at all then.
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RAW, poison use isn't an equivalent to trapfinding, even though a reasonable DM could allow it without breaking the game in any way.
Also, gaining a rogue talent doesn't mean you have the rogue talent class feature no more than selecting a combat feat means you have the bonus combat feat class feature.
RAW you have to have the specific class feature to in order to qualify for an archetype. A GM could allow you to sub out, but that is a house rule.
edit:ninja'd
Since for any other class extra [whatever] exists, i see no reason why a ninja should not take extra rogue talent as a feat, limited to ninja tricks, but since ninja tricks include rogue talents, the limitation is senseless. There is extra ki, but a rogue with ki pool can take that too and it was for monks originally.
As a reference, sensei monks can use extra bardic performance, lingering performance etc too.
Hayato: while I agree that there is no reason balance wise that you could not swap out those abilities for others with archetypes that require this doing so is not RAW. Taking the Ninja "archetype" (I know it is an alternate class but the wording above clearly indicates that it is pretty much just a big archetype) already swapped those abilities out. You can't take 2 archetypes that swap out the same abilities. You shouldn't be able to do the same with a alternate class and an archetype.
But again, I don't think this is there as a balance defining issue. Personally, as a DM I would allow it because it doesn't create a balance issue. But I would be doing so knowing that I was making a house rule.
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I grow so tired of explaining that alternate classes are still very much that same class. A ninja is a rogue, a samurai is a cavalier, and a antipaladin is a paladin. For all purposes, including magic items, feats, and archetypes, they are the same class. If an archetype replaces an ability the alternate class does not have, you can't take the archetype. Otherwise, you are good to go.