Spell for my level three sorcerer


Advice

Grand Lodge

I'm having some trouble deciding what Spell I should pick up at level three.

Gnome Sorcerer with the Efreeti bloodline. I already know Magic Missile, Color Spray and Enlarge Person. And I have a wand of Shield and a wand of Infernal Healing.

I can't decide between Shocking Grasp and Ray of Enfeeblement.

As I see it it'd be nice to have an offensive spell like Shocking Grasp. I can change it to "Firey" Grasp because of my bloodline if I want. So there's some versatility there. Downside being I'd have to get in close to do damage. Obviously as a Caster I tend to stay away from the front lines so this may be more of a panic button spell. Which I consider Color Spray to be anyway.

Ray of Enfeeblement on the other hand I can use from a safe distance. Losing 1d6+1 points of strength is a pretty decent debuff but it doesn't scale as well as Shocking Grasp.

What would you do? Any other spells you'd suggest? Charm Person? Something I missed?


Burning Hands?


Grease, one of the most overall useful 1st level spells in the game. Particularly if you have a dm that allows creative use of spells.

Grand Lodge

re:Sunbeam

I thought about that... I decided against it because of Color Spray also being a 15' cone spell. And if I do step up to the front lines Shocking Grasp will do more damage, albeit to one person.

As for swarms... well... there is that. A good anti-swarm measure. But honestly I'll just keep some acid flasks and alchemist fire handy for those situations.

Grand Lodge

Kolokotroni wrote:
Grease, one of the most overall useful 1st level spells in the game. Particularly if you have a dm that allows creative use of spells.

True true. I might just nab a few scrolls for that however.

Grand Lodge

Oh and thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate them even if I immediately shoot them down. :D

It all helps my decision process.


Yenven Arcanscape wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Grease, one of the most overall useful 1st level spells in the game. Particularly if you have a dm that allows creative use of spells.
True true. I might just nab a few scrolls for that however.

Generally you dont want to use scrolls for spells that allow saves, as the save DC for this spell on a scroll or wand will ALWAYS be 11. Presumably the DC when you cast it will be higher then that by a few points at least.

Grand Lodge

Kolokotroni wrote:
Yenven Arcanscape wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Grease, one of the most overall useful 1st level spells in the game. Particularly if you have a dm that allows creative use of spells.
True true. I might just nab a few scrolls for that however.
Generally you dont want to use scrolls for spells that allow saves, as the save DC for this spell on a scroll or wand will ALWAYS be 11. Presumably the DC when you cast it will be higher then that by a few points at least.

Ahh... yes... good point. But wouldn't it be DC 12?

Quote:

Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Source

And if I were to buy a wand of Grease would the Save DC be higher? The source I quoted says "Staves" when I assume they mean wands?

/edit And it looks like I just learned what Staves are.


Yenven Arcanscape wrote:

I'm having some trouble deciding what Spell I should pick up at level three.

What's the rest of your party look like and how do they play those PCs?

I don't think shocking grasp will ever be a good idea for you though unless you are really going for touch spells and even then meh.. leave that spell for the magi.

Charm person is a good spell, so is unseen servant, anticipate peril, floating disk, even feather fall.

-James


When considering grease, if you have a rogue in the party, don't forget that an enemy using acrobatics to move through a grease spell is flatfooted and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.


The spells which are most commonly considered powerful are Silent Image and Grease. I would consider a wand of mage armour too as that's a better spell than shield since it lasts much longer.

You really need to plan you level 2 and 3 choices though. Sorcerers are tough especially nonhuman ones. No point in duplicating.

That is a very offense focussed list. Some utility and defensive spells might help.

Grand Lodge

james maissen wrote:
Yenven Arcanscape wrote:

I'm having some trouble deciding what Spell I should pick up at level three.

What's the rest of your party look like and how do they play those PCs?

I don't think shocking grasp will ever be a good idea for you though unless you are really going for touch spells and even then meh.. leave that spell for the magi.

Charm person is a good spell, so is unseen servant, anticipate peril, floating disk, even feather fall.

-James

The party is different every week since its whoever shows up to the Pathfinder Society Grand Lodge in Absalom when the call is put out.

I definitely would not be focusing on touch spells.

Charm Person's save DC will always remain the same though won't it? Its not a spell that involves CL, just Spell level right?


Yenven Arcanscape wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Yenven Arcanscape wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Grease, one of the most overall useful 1st level spells in the game. Particularly if you have a dm that allows creative use of spells.
True true. I might just nab a few scrolls for that however.
Generally you dont want to use scrolls for spells that allow saves, as the save DC for this spell on a scroll or wand will ALWAYS be 11. Presumably the DC when you cast it will be higher then that by a few points at least.

Ahh... yes... good point. But wouldn't it be DC 12?

Quote:

Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

The minimum stat required to cast the spell is 11, for a +0. So 10+1[spell level]+0[modified for an 11 casting stat] So the dc off scrolls or wands is 11.

The Exchange

You already have two very solid attack spells and a good buff spell. You might want to consider a defensive spell. As you get higher in level, protection from evil will come in handy a lot. Mage armor can be cast on other PCs - it'll boost the AC of any monks (and most rogues) that are in the party. It's also great against incorporeal enemies.

Charm person, as you've noted, is nice both for utility and as a combat-ender, although you might also read hypnotism and see if it's more your style. Disguise self is pretty much non-combat only, but it does have many uses...


You might get a wand of it, but I'd strongly recommend mage armor. It's a long duration buff, so you don't have to spend a combat action putting it up like you do with shield. It can protect your fragile buddies -- monks, rogues with non-metal armor, familiars and animal companions, mounts, etc., etc.

You've got offense. You got utility. You need better defense.

Grand Lodge

Reason I bought a wand of shield is because I wear a Hakamari.

Its true I don't have a lot of useful buffs for other people. But I guess I can just play that off as my Chaotic Neutral Gnome just not caring too much about other people's ACs.

:P

OK maybe I'll get a wand of Mage Armor in a few scenarios time.

Liberty's Edge

I agree with the need for better defense, but as a gnome you should have a good con, so really you will want to work on doing whatever you can to increase your hitpoints and stay out of melee.
Now, if you were level on, I'd recommend sleep, but your'e nearing the end of it's utility at level 3, and I'd recommend it to be swapped out at level 4, so unless you only want to use it for 1 level it not really a good suggestion at this point.
Consider wands for mage armor and shield for defense.
I recently came across a new spell that just may be something for you to think about. Burning Disarm is a great little twofer spell. Subject in close range makes a reflex save to drop item in their hand. If they fail, the hold onto the item and take 1d4/level fire damage up to 5d4. Since you're a gnome with the Effreti Bloodline I can assume you also took the pyromaniac trait. This would essentially give you a 4d4 fire spell. And if it fails they drop whatever item is in hand.

However, if you're looking for an offensive spell that will retain it's utility into later levels like magic missle pick up ear piercing shriek.
1d6/2 caster levels of sonic damage, fort for half and a chance for deafen make this probably the most over powered of the level 1 spells available in pathfinder.


Beebs wrote:
When considering grease, if you have a rogue in the party, don't forget that an enemy using acrobatics to move through a grease spell is flatfooted and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

I believe that was changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Grossly hurting the utility of the spell.


Yenven Arcanscape wrote:
What would you do? Any other spells you'd suggest? Charm Person? Something I missed?

I'm in a similar boat with my gnome sorcerer. Here's my thought process:

I wouldn't do shocking grasp, ray of enfeeblement, or charm person.

Color spray is a solid debuff that is still pretty useful.

Magic Missile is standard-issue direct damage, no save/aiming, scales through level 9, probably overpowered first level spell. Good choice. You can also change the damage to fire damage, but I imagine that won't be too useful (except versus creatures who have a cold subtype/vulnerability to fire).

Enlarge person isn't the best buff in the world, but it definitely has its uses. It's great for CMB-ability-spamming fighters (trip, overrun, etc) and making Mr. Greatsword deal more damage/have better reach. It *can* be used as an anti-caster debuff, but honestly the 1 round casting time makes it a Str-focued melee buff most of the time.

You're right to fear getting in melee for shocking grasp. Ray of enfeeblement scales OK, but it's a fort save. You really want to use it on creatures that have good fort saves. (The fort save was a pretty severe Pathfinder nerf.)

Charm person is pretty bad for combat. Most GMs will rule that the +5 bonus on the save works pretty much all the time while fighting (even if you get to go first), so I wouldn't recommend that, especially considering color spray is a good choice against a will save.

For your level, it's pretty hard to beat grease. You have the will save spell, so a good reflex or fort save spell would be ideal. I'm a big fan of the utility of animate rope, but most people will tell you it's useless/sucky/blah blah.

I actually think ear-piercing scream (in UM) is probably a better choice than it appears. It's sonic damage, so it will typically work on your opponent. It's a fort save for a daze, so it's good against early casters you run into. Its damage scales a little bit worse than magic missile, but the daze is pretty strong early on. It's not a mind-affecting daze, although it won't work on undead/constructs (fort save that doesn't work on objects). It also doesn't have an annoying ranged attack roll that I always seem to miss (especially including firing in to melee penalties and soft cover).

Snapdragon fireworks sounds like it would work great with later metamagic feats if you're planning on taking a few.


Right now I am home and I have a keyboard instead of a phone I will post a little bit more.

You need flexible spells. Or spells that scale with your level.

Heighten Spell is good for this.

---

Spells like Black Tentacles are even better because they scale of CL.


Davick wrote:
Beebs wrote:
When considering grease, if you have a rogue in the party, don't forget that an enemy using acrobatics to move through a grease spell is flatfooted and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.
I believe that was changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Grossly hurting the utility of the spell.

Direct from the PRD entry on the acrobatics skill: "Check: You can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any)."

It's worth noting however, that if the creature doesn't move, it doesn't have to make an acrobatics check, and is not flat-footed (this is noted in the grease spell description), so this ability is somewhat situational.

It's a nice perk however, as an enemy moving through grease will always get a debuff of some sort, either falling prone or being flatfooted. Reliable, versatile spells that can affect multiple opponents are where it is at!

Liberty's Edge

Grease is pretty nuts.
Silent Image is only limited by your imagination.
Other than that, ray of enfeeblement over shocking grasp. Melee spells are a little hard to use because sorcerers really shouldn't be in melee.

Unseen Servant is also undervalued, but makes a good wand, and it's kind of hard to justify taking as a sorcerer.

Shadow Lodge

Axebeard wrote:

Grease is pretty nuts.

Silent Image is only limited by your imagination.
Other than that, ray of enfeeblement over shocking grasp. Melee spells are a little hard to use because sorcerers really shouldn't be in melee.

Unseen Servant is also undervalued, but makes a good wand, and it's kind of hard to justify taking as a sorcerer.

All depends on the sorcerer.

I've got a half-orc aberrant sorcerer who took a level of oracle and wields a greataxe in combat, while wearing heavy armor and a series of eldritch enhancements. Lots of possibilities work.


What kind of theme does this character have? The bloodline is one thing but how is he played?


Let's see, you have a damage spam, a buff and a close range debuff/SoS.

Howabout a utility spell: Silent Image?

Battlefield control (illusory walls or obstacles)
Stealth (illusory objects you hide inside of)
Communication (use 3-D pictures to send signals or give briefings or show maps or creatures you've seen)
Misleading (illusions covering dangerous stuff, like a pit, or a party member holding an attack action)

Grand Lodge

Thanks again for all your advice. I think I'm going to go with Grease. I can always swap it when I get to Level 4 if I can't find some good uses for it.

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