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I'm currently running the RotR AP and when the game is done, a couple of my players have shown interest in their characters going through the Test of the Starstone to become gods. They'll be roughly level 17 by that point.
Im at a loss right now, personally, cause I would kinda like to do it, but have no idea what to include.
So, 1) Do you think the Test of the Starstone is even designable with game mechanics? And 2) What would you include in it if you were designing it for a character around level 17?
Also, feel free to list stuff that is absolutely deadly to aboput 99% of characters, cause only a few people have ever survived it so far after all.
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I think the test is different for everyone, and it should be hard enough that the individual is more likely to fail than pass.
I might send them on an adventure, and at the end of the adventure teleport them back to the starstone. <--I like this one, but it should be very difficult. They should also have to bed tested physically and mentally in a wide number of ways.
Even though they are going through it as a group they should be challenged individually.
I would have the adventure test first, and the individual test 2nd. Being a deity should not be made easier because you brought your buddies with you. :)
PS:I see you are accepting 99% failure rates. That is good. :)
You might even take them back to level 1, and run them though AoW with some stipulation that if they die X amount of times they fail, and they stay dead.
If X equals 1 that is ok. :)
The adventure can be on another planet or all in their minds if you want to do it that way, but the death is still real.
Please note that Razmir is a lv 19 wizard.
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Note that the guys who passed were a rogue, a duelist, and a paladin.
Something screwy happens to magic.
Have you given any thought to how a party of adventurers can take the test at once?
This is my biggest stumbling block - golarions history is full of people who failed and a few (individuals) who passed. How come nobody seems to take friends if it's possible to "team up"?
So, 1) Do you think the Test of the Starstone is even designable with game mechanics?
Definitely
And 2) What would you include in it if you were designing it for a character around level 17?
4 ECL 22 encounters... for solo adventurers. The starstone should split people up and put them in their own pocket dimension for the test unless you have a married couple or pair of twins that are looking to become some sort of duality.
A test of brains: something you have to think your way through
A test of personality: something you can't fight your way through. A moral quandary of some sort that has to be solved according to the characters own alignment: a test to be true to yourself. Please note that as evil gods have gotten through this is not something as simple as doing the right thing: you have to do it as a paragon of your chosen alignment would. You are seeking to be a god and infuse yourself with the essence of your alignment after all.
Note that the guys who passed were a rogue, a duelist, and a paladin.
Something screwy happens to magic.
Wasn't aroden himself a wizard?
Barbarian 20. Remember, he lifted the rock from the ocean to land.
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One thing to keep in mind is that it's very very hard. Four people in four thousand years have passed. That's one success per _millennium_. (Hmmm... it may be the Starstone requires a few centuries to recharge. Perhaps it needs to feed on enough would-be testers that there's enough energy to boost one lucky aspirant to godhood.)
I'm thinking that the Starstone is more a test of who you are than of what you can do. If you are a god in embryo, the Starstone will reveal that, and let you out to grow; if you're less than a god, it will reveal that too, and the revelation will destroy you. I had one PC ask Iomedae how she got through the Starstone, and the answer was, more or less, "I can't explain it till you've already been through; you wouldn't understand. What I can say is that the Stone _magnifies_ you."
(If you have to stat this out, there's probably a mirror of opposition in there somewhere. Face yourself, maybe multiples of yourself, and which is the true one?)
The Test should be light on the combat and heavy on the roleplaying. (If nothing else, as a GM you need to discover what sort of god the PC is going to become.)
It's been suggested that Norberger's four aspects are actually an adventuring party that made it through the Starstone. (See above about difficulty -- the secret he's hiding isn't so much "who am I?", but "how did you get four people into the Starstone together".)
Barbarian 20. Remember, he lifted the rock from the ocean to land.I thought he invented some arcane spells. A barbarian wouldn't do that.
A barbarian with ranks in spellcraft, then.
Is AM BARBARIAN secretly a wizard?
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Is AM BARBARIAN secretly a wizard?
NOT BE SILLY. BARBARIAN AM ENGINEER. MAKE PHYSICS WORK FOR BARBARIAN, NOT UNMAKE PHYSICS.
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While you absolutely could design a challenge, I feel like there is a great danger of disappointment. It is hard to actually create a test for godhood as amazing, bizarre, and awe inspiring as one would imagine a test for godhood to be. It would also, as you acknowledge, have to have an extraordinarily high chance of failure. Tough is fun, but "you need 3 20's in a row" difficulty, while logical for the test, is just annoying.
Have you considered just playing it as a "walk into the sunset" moment? The heroes get over the bottomless bit, enter the test, and are never heard from again. Most assume they failed, but astrologers reported two new stars in the sky / their companions keep receiving mysterious boons / a few traveling priests have popped up proclaiming visions and miracles, that sort of thing? It is still a nice ending, and keeps you from having to either brutally murder their characters during the test, or deal with two extra gods in every Golarion game you play from here on in.
Actually, while I'm talking, our gm had a similar issue. One of my characters was under a 'death curse' where a number in aklo on his hand counted down to his death. Of course, being a total badass he opted near the end of his days to take the test of the starstone. This has not yet happened, but the GM is handling it by just letting everyone but me make a couple of trials of an epic nature.
It should be a good story, if nothing else.
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I know you didn't ask for story hooks or the like, but this just occured to me. It might be interesting to have the player characters run into a villain, a proverbial (instead of literal) monster who they know to be seeking godhood as well. A race to stop him from taking (and somehow succeding) the test would be worthy in itself, but if they go in after him, they might find themselves taking (alone or together) the same challenges. While the best odds would be that each dies, the game master could also have the birth of a new dark god, one not so dark (Assuming non evil PCs) or both as suits the campaign's needs.
Frankly, I think that would be my biggest determiner. Do you feel good stories could come from the introduction of the 'newest' god/goddess to make giving the PCs a true chance at it worth while? If so, then yeah, give them a chance. I wouldn't worry too much about precedent. With Aroden dead, many prophecies no longer seem to mean much, perhaps the 'only one god every thousand years' rule(or guideline) is also out of whack.
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Can't help but think any Test of the Starstone should feel a bit like a Planescape adventure. Punching metaphors and dueling with ethics-made-flesh and all that.
Although another possibility is pretty appealing too....
"You must defeat Achaekek to stand a chance."
I know you didn't ask for story hooks or the like, but this just occured to me. It might be interesting to have the player characters run into a villain, a proverbial (instead of literal) monster who they know to be seeking godhood as well. A race to stop him from taking (and somehow succeding) the test would be worthy in itself, but if they go in after him, they might find themselves taking (alone or together) the same challenges. While the best odds would be that each dies, the game master could also have the birth of a new dark god, one not so dark (Assuming non evil PCs) or both as suits the campaign's needs.
Nice way to motivate even those not aspiring to godhood to go take the test. And hey, their not actively seeking power through godhood may very well be a part of why they may just deserve it.
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@ Mergy: Ive no experience with Tomb of Horrors. Suggestions?
@Shadowcatx: Sorry, I didnt mean it as the Test should be designed for and beatable by level 17s. I was actually giving their level as the level people should assume the players are when they will take it. A 'if a level 17 could beat it, dont suggest it' thing if you will. Shoulda explained that a bit better though, lol.
@ Steve Geddes: I hadnt intended on them taking it together. Everyone would be inividual, though I may allow the PCs that are married to take it together, as someone else suggested.
@ tonyz: I like the mirror of opposition idea. Might have to use that.
@ Mort the celveryly named: I like the walking into the sunset idea.
@ Lazar X: I dont want to say they all automatically fail, though I honestly dont think that any of their characters would survive the Test. Might just do a 'The seven of you walk in, two of you walk out." and just leave it up to their imagination to figure out who survived and how.
@ Ridge: I like the idea, and if the BBEG for the game wasnt already written out more or less (since it is an AP Im running), then I might give that a go.
So, there's a ton of great ideas here already, so I don't have to talk much!
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... HAH! Fooled all you guys! I'mma talk my own ears off!
Firstly - Aroden was totally a wizard. Things're pretty clear about that. He might also have been a barbarian, however.
A test of personality: something you can't fight your way through. A moral quandary of some sort that has to be solved according to the characters own alignment: a test to be true to yourself. Please note that as evil gods have gotten through this is not something as simple as doing the right thing: you have to do it as a paragon of your chosen alignment would. You are seeking to be a god and infuse yourself with the essence of your alignment after all.
I'm thinking that the Starstone is more a test of who you are than of what you can do. If you are a god in embryo, the Starstone will reveal that, and let you out to grow; if you're less than a god, it will reveal that too, and the revelation will destroy you. I had one PC ask Iomedae how she got through the Starstone, and the answer was, more or less, "I can't explain it till you've already been through; you wouldn't understand. What I can say is that the Stone _magnifies_ you."
Both of these are excellent points. In my opinion, as others have said, what the Starstone actually tests is far more than your abilities. It measures you. It actually tests you and sees if you're pure enough (not "good" enough, mind, "pure enough") to warrant the title "deity". And it also purifies you. It's like passing through a fire. It will give the paladin impossible moral choices. Not "difficult", but "impossible". It will force her to fail to be a paladin by all reasonable thought processes, and still expect her to succeed while maintaining her paladin status.
Example: automatically shift her alignment to chaotic evil, and then tempt her with everything and drop her into a situation in which she benefits in every way (and suffers no consequences) if she behaves according to her new alignment. But if she maintains her lawful good regardless... she's passe the test of alignment (though not necessarily the test of Paladinhood - she needs to come up against a situation that clearly violates her code no matter what she does, and if she does nothing. And then she finds a way to not violate her paladin code. I think it's things like this that Iomedae passed. I think that Iomadae is more lawful good than ever, because she knows what chaotic evil is like.
Further, as my example above notes - it's not one test, but many. I think it tests each part of you: your ability scores, your skill, your alignment, your feats, your everything. It measures all of these, but mostly, as mentioned above, it measure the person, then refines the person, then measures them some more. And, I suspect, while it might be blatant about it often enough, it does so subtly at other times - so much so that even when the character is making their choices at each moment, they don't know that they're being tested.
(If you have to stat this out, there's probably a mirror of opposition in there somewhere. Face yourself, maybe multiples of yourself, and which is the true one?)
The Test should be light on the combat and heavy on the roleplaying. (If nothing else, as a GM you need to discover what sort of god the PC is going to become.)
It's been suggested that Norberger's four aspects are actually an adventuring party that made it through the Starstone. (See above about difficulty -- the secret he's hiding isn't so much "who am I?", but "how did you get four people into the Starstone together".)
Can't help but think any Test of the Starstone should feel a bit like a Planescape adventure. Punching metaphors and dueling with ethics-made-flesh and all that.
Although another possibility is pretty appealing too....
These are both great suggestions, and I love the mirror of opposition idea, and Mikaze mentions planescape, which makes perfect sense.
While I wholly agree the test should be primarily about role playing, there could be a few combats... but I'm tempted to suggest that, for most purposes, take the mechanics out. I chafe at that idea myself, but truly - take the character sheet, and run everything "behind the screen" so to speak, with the character(s) in question simply making choices and you decide the outcomes based off their character sheet and the other elements unknown to them (and also, occasionally, dice, if you must). That's one suggestion, anyway. You don't have to go with it.
Also, Mikaze's suggestion is actually a pretty cool bar to set - defeat Achaekek or else. It would make sense, given that he's the guardian of the gods/enforcer of true religions. It's also interesting because if Achaekek is the guardian of the Starstone, he could even be a manifestation of the starstone - possibly even a creation by Aroden during the raising thereof. That would explain much of why Achaekek is the way he is*. Also, this would be a great point to give back the character sheets, if you took them earlier.
(*EDIT WHILE WRITING THE FIRST DRAFT: Actually, in-canon, nevermind: Achaekek existed before the Starstone, he was worshiped by the Azlant, so unless you have another explanation that one doesn't fly. Still a nifty idea, though, so I'm leaving it.)
I know you didn't ask for story hooks or the like, but this just occured to me. It might be interesting to have the player characters run into a villain, a proverbial (instead of literal) monster who they know to be seeking godhood as well. A race to stop him from taking (and somehow succeding) the test would be worthy in itself, but if they go in after him, they might find themselves taking (alone or together) the same challenges. While the best odds would be that each dies, the game master could also have the birth of a new dark god, one not so dark (Assuming non evil PCs) or both as suits the campaign's needs.Nice way to motivate even those not aspiring to godhood to go take the test. And hey, their not actively seeking power through godhood may very well be a part of why they may just deserve it.
This goes great with testing the purity of a person. Aspiring to godhood could be something that someone desires (and that's fine), but if that's what they're after, that's what they'll be tested on. "Your goal is to be a god for the sake of being a god? Here: have some tests you'd need to be a god to pass." Everything you bring with you (much like that tree/cave in Dagobah) is going to be tested - that includes your wants and desires.
Here's the big question you want to ask yourself. Ultimately do you want the characters to have a chance of passing or just automatically fail. The Starstone is the ultimate version of the Roach Motel for Adventurers. For most who take the test the following dialogue can be cribbed from "Dune".
"They tried and failed?"
"They tried and died."
The majority, certainly, have died (at least by my understanding), but there have been many who took it and emerged not with godhood, but with fabulous wealth, treasure, power, and such as a result of their trials. That's one thing that keeps people coming - the fact that even if they fail, they might still walk out so far ahead of the game. None of those failed survivors had ever even seen the starstone, and all recall something strange happened with magic there.
I might comment more later, but I've got to go, for now!
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I'm currently running the RotR AP and when the game is done, a couple of my players have shown interest in their characters going through the Test of the Starstone to become gods. They'll be roughly level 17 by that point.
Im at a loss right now, personally, cause I would kinda like to do it, but have no idea what to include.
So, 1) Do you think the Test of the Starstone is even designable with game mechanics? And 2) What would you include in it if you were designing it for a character around level 17?
Also, feel free to list stuff that is absolutely deadly to aboput 99% of characters, cause only a few people have ever survived it so far after all.
This is pretty simple indeed.
how many NPC did run the test in the last 4711 year ? one hundered thousands ? more ?how any actually succeded ? 4 !
so there is a 4/100.000 probability to go through.
-roll a dice 100000. on a result of 000004 or lower, you'r a god now :-)
I told you it was simple
You have a source for Achaekek existing before the Starstone? Many posters including myself thought he exist due to Aroden's Herald getting man handled by Tar-Barphon.
He certainly showed up more then, but yes, I do.
He was worshiped in ancient Azlant as a god of monsters and blood. To give more info than that, I'd be getting into (terribly minor) AP spoilers.
I, too, had thought that he came about as a result of Arazni being murderized by Tar-Baphon, but, in...
... it's revealed (as part of ancient inscriptions) that he is one of the ancient Azlanti deities.
What I'm wandering is if that "creation" story of his wasn't so much an actual creation story as a recreation story: in other words, Achaekek was already around, and already a monstrous devourer, but he was recreated - kind of reprogrammed, as it were - to be the protector of all the gods. That's pure speculation, however.
I actually like the idea of Achaekek being the guardian of the Starstone as one of his primary purposes is to stop those seeking godhood. One of the things that might be involved in the test is the fact Achaekek can't be damaged by anything less than, I believe, Demi-godhood status. So the characters WILL fail against fighting him, it's the ones that fail, and continue to fail, fighting on even though it's made apparant that they could easily escape, that makes them a god.
It might be that Norgorber simply had nothing else left to keep him around, kind of a 'go out with a bang' scenario. Perhaps he had family, children, or something that was being held, and he was told if he wanted to save them, to take the test, and when he emerged, he murdered the people who forced him in.
Cayden could have continued fighting simply because that's what he does, he fights and never backs down. He relishes in tought fights and would see the chance as to fight the very incarnation of the Gods might as something he could never again achieve.
Iomedae, as the idol of what paladins strive to be would never back down from any fight, she would fight to the death regardless of the odds. She could have seen it as her duty to serve Aroden for now, and eternity, as a god, as a mortal, as a successor.
As for Achaekek being a deity of the Azlant, this is true, however, with Aroden being the last Azlant, Achaekek would have lost his divinity, no worshipper, no power. Perhaps he lingered on, barely a deity, only existing on a technicality, a demi-god; and with the death of Arazni,the raising of the mortal gods, the ursuption of the Beast domain by Lamashtu, and other beings stealing Divine power, the Gods approached the fledgling Achaekek and he agreed to take on a new mantle as the herald of their divine power.
I could totally envision each character who continues to fight Achaekek, continue to fight, long after death, a battle that twists their souls, the essence of their very being, stripping it away, and as each blow lands by Achaekek's claws, his essence becomes smaller, and smaller until only a spark remains. But even as a spark, the character remains defiant, determined to overcome the monster before him, and through his will power, his bravery, his loyalty, whatever is his most defining feature. Through this core feature of his very being alone, the Starstone reacts. It begins infusing the once mortal with new energies, new powers, a strength it never before could have achieved. The ascending mortal keeps on fighting, and soon enough, Achaekek retreats, as he is forbidden from harming a true Deity.
Now, roll up a new character, you can't play him eeeeever again.
The Starstone kills everybody. It's how you deal with that fact that determines the outcome of the Test.
He certainly showed up more then, but yes, I do.
He was worshiped in ancient Azlant as a god of monsters and blood. To give more info than that, I'd be getting into (terribly minor) AP spoilers.
I, too, had thought that he came about as a result of Arazni being murderized by Tar-Baphon, but, in...
** spoiler omitted **
... it's revealed (as part of ancient inscriptions) that he is one of the ancient Azlanti deities.
What I'm wandering is if that "creation" story of his wasn't so much an actual creation story as a recreation story: in other words, Achaekek was already around, and already a monstrous devourer, but he was recreated - kind of reprogrammed, as it were - to be the protector of all the gods. That's pure speculation, however.
That is strange. They(Paizo) should give us the background on this.
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As for Achaekek being a deity of the Azlant, this is true, however, with Aroden being the last Azlant, Achaekek would have lost his divinity, no worshipper, no power. Perhaps he lingered on, barely a deity, only existing on a technicality, a demi-god; and with the death of Arazni,the raising of the mortal gods, the ursuption of the Beast domain by Lamashtu, and other beings stealing Divine power, the Gods approached the fledgling Achaekek and he agreed to take on a new mantle as the herald of their divine power.
Golarion deities aren't dependent on mortal worship for their divinity.
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1) you could draw some inspiration from the D&D Master Rulec.
2) There is no reason why the test will all be within the Starstone or will end in a limited span of time. The fluff about the Starstone in the Absalom book say that there people still waiting to see emerge as gods people that have taken the test a long time ago.
3) Similarly we know a few important subjects that have taken the test and become major gods (i.e. are part of the 20 major gods of the inner sea). that don't mean that there aren't minor gods or gods know only in other parts of the planets that have passed through the ritual of the Starstone.
"Only three [Aroden become a god without passing the test AFAIK] have passed the test." Hmm. Three mortals have become mayor gods without the test, Iori, Nethys and Urgathoa. So 30% of the current 20 mayor gods are mortals ascended. An impressive percentage.
Then if you look the minor gods in the "Faith of ...." line of supplements you will see at least another 6 lesser gods that are mortals ascended. None of them cite the Starstone as the way by which they achieved godhood but for a couple of them there is no indication of how they achieved it.
As I see it you can decide whatever success rate you like.
Side note:
Start rant:
Iomedae, as the idol of what paladins strive to be would never back down from any fight, she would fight to the death regardless of the odds. She could have seen it as her duty to serve Aroden for now, and eternity, as a god, as a mortal, as a successor.
There is any reason why paladins should be Lawful Stupid?
A paladins goal is to make Goodness and Order stronger, not to die needlessly. He/she will risk death and accept it if it is needed, but s/he will back down from a fight s/he can't win unless that will mean the death of the innocent or helpless./end rant
Golarion deities aren't dependent on mortal worship for their divinity.
As for Achaekek being a deity of the Azlant, this is true, however, with Aroden being the last Azlant, Achaekek would have lost his divinity, no worshipper, no power. Perhaps he lingered on, barely a deity, only existing on a technicality, a demi-god; and with the death of Arazni,the raising of the mortal gods, the ursuption of the Beast domain by Lamashtu, and other beings stealing Divine power, the Gods approached the fledgling Achaekek and he agreed to take on a new mantle as the herald of their divine power.
I haven't seen anything to say that they aren't, but I've seen a few things to say that they are. Azhia is a now-forgotten god that is tortured endlessly in an archdevils palace, implying the lack of worshippers has made Azhia too weak to fight the archdevil; Both Lissala and the Peacock Spirit were major gods of Thassilon, both religions declined with the fall of Thassilon and both gods are now dead, this says to me without worshippers, the gods die off or fade away. Unless it is stated elsewhere, as far as I know the gods are dependent on mortal worshippers, and if the lose their worshippers, they very well could die or be reduced in power.
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I forget where mind you but I believe James Jacob has stated that they are not worshiper dependent.
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There are three books I would use to help with this.
Old D&D Wrath of the Immortals - great ideas on ascension to godhood
3.0 D&D Deities and Demigods - also rules on ascension...
Mongoose Publishing Book of Immortals - best rules I have read on going from mortal to demi-god.
All out of print now though.
The book of immortals give a good way to quest up, the other two help plan the destination and powers, and give some decent opposition to stopping you.
I was using it in my last campaign set in Mystara (known world) where immortality (godhood) was achievable via different means with at least five paths that could be taken by seekers.
Most required an god to sponsor you.
Hope this helps.
Both Lissala and the Peacock Spirit were major gods of Thassilon, both religions declined with the fall of Thassilon and both gods are now dead
Actually, Lissala isn't dead, just vastly reduced in power. Some of the ancient runes in Thassilonian temples still have a link to her, and it is technically still possible to have Clerics devoted to her.
Both Lissala and the Peacock Spirit were major gods of Thassilon, both religions declined with the fall of Thassilon and both gods are now deadActually, Lissala isn't dead, just vastly reduced in power. Some of the ancient runes in Thassilonian temples still have a link to her, and it is technically still possible to have Clerics devoted to her.
Really? Where'd you read that? I actually kinda liked Lissala as a deity and wouldn't mind playing a Cleric of hers, but I'm running CotCT right now and we just finished History of Ashes and I got the impression Lissala was a dead god and Desna had taken over care of her temples as they were both closely related, thematically.
[EDIT] Can you say, run-on?
[RE-EDIT] I opened up my Hero Labs and read the entry on Lissala and then opened up Inner Sea World Guide to confirm, and it does say some of the runes in her former temples may be linked to her. However, I disagree with here alignment of LE, LN fits her more, I think, with her Seven Virtues of Rule. Perhaps mortal perception of her through the later worshipings of Thassilon has been tainted to believe her to be LE? I don't know, but in my campaigns, she'll be LN.
Anyway, I also double checked HoA and is does say Lissala is a now-dead goddess, but later publications are assumed to usurp earlier ones.
That's neither here nor there, as this is about the Starstone Trials. I would imagine, that if you run your PCs through the Test, and since this is a game, you could alter the workings of the cosmos however you see fit. If the gods in your world depend on worshippers (like they do in mine), then that's your choice. I myself have a player that is extremely interested in taking the Test and every once in awhile I give thought as to how it would play out, but I've told him that the chances are almost nil tha he'll survive.
Both Lissala and the Peacock Spirit were major gods of Thassilon, both religions declined with the fall of Thassilon and both gods are now deadActually, Lissala isn't dead, just vastly reduced in power. Some of the ancient runes in Thassilonian temples still have a link to her, and it is technically still possible to have Clerics devoted to her.Really? Where'd you read that? I actually kinda liked Lissala as a deity and wouldn't mind playing a Cleric of hers, but I'm running CotCT right now and we just finished History of Ashes and I got the impression Lissala was a dead god and Desna had taken over care of her temples as they were both closely related, thematically.
[EDIT] Can you say, run-on?
[RE-EDIT] I opened up my Hero Labs and read the entry on Lissala and then opened up Inner Sea World Guide to confirm, and it does say some of the runes in her former temples may be linked to her. However, I disagree with here alignment of LE, LN fits her more, I think, with her Seven Virtues of Rule. Perhaps mortal perception of her through the later worshipings of Thassilon has been tainted to believe her to be LE? I don't know, but in my campaigns, she'll be LN.Anyway, I also double checked HoA and is does say Lissala is a now-dead goddess, but later publications are assumed to usurp earlier ones.
That's neither here nor there, as this is about the Starstone Trials. I would imagine, that if you run your PCs through the Test, and since this is a game, you could alter the workings of the cosmos however you see fit. If the gods in your world depend on worshippers (like they do in mine), then that's your choice. I myself have a player that is extremely interested in taking the Test and every once in awhile I give thought as to how it would play out, but I've told him that the chances are almost nil tha he'll survive.
Desna and Lisalla aren't closely related at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure Desna probably hated Lisalla, considering she stood for slavery and a tyrannical magocracy. The 'temple' you encountered in Curse of the Crimson Throne was not really a temple, as such, to either Desna or Lisalla, but a place where Thassilonians studied conjuring aberrant beasts from beyond the stars. The wizards who staffed the place in the past had a shrine to Lisalla which remains mostly intact, and a Shoanti priest of Desna explored the place, and consecrated a neat seeing-globe to Desna.
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I can confirm what Revan said, just having finished that AP not too long ago. It's easy to correlate the two though at a glance.
There's frustratingly little about Lissala actually, frustrating because she's so interesting. She's definitely near the top of my "MOAR INFO ON THIS GOD PLZ PAIZO" list. You're right though, in that she was originally said to be dead.
I can't recall when or where, but I think the mention of her still being alive in some form may have been on these forums. Possibly James Jacobs himself. Something about domains being listed somewhere and still being tagged as active in one book(Inner Sea World Guide maybe?), while other deities in that same source were specifically called out as being dead and inactive for their clerics.
Figure a certain Peacock-themed deity is still kicking around in the background somewhere as well.
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Golarion deities aren't dependent on mortal worship for their divinity.
I haven't seen anything to say that they aren't, but I've seen a few things to say that they are. Azhia is a now-forgotten god that is tortured endlessly in an archdevils palace, implying the lack of worshippers has made Azhia too weak to fight the archdevil; Both Lissala and the Peacock Spirit were major gods of Thassilon, both religions declined with the fall of Thassilon and both gods are now dead, this says to me without worshippers, the gods die off or fade away. Unless it is stated elsewhere, as far as I know the gods are dependent on mortal worshippers, and if the lose their worshippers, they very well could die or be reduced in power.
From here:
Nope; gods in Pathfinder are not powered by their faithful. A god with no worshipers can become forgotten, but does not die. Likewise, a god can't spontaneously manifest simply because it reaches some threshold of worship.
Gods don't need mortals to worship them to exist, in other words.
I still disagree with the Lissala as described in Inner Sea World Guide. She introduced the Seven Virtues of Rule (wealth, fertility, honest pride, abundance, eager striving, righteous anger, and well-deserved rest), to the founder of the Thassilonian Empire, Emperor Xin. A goddes that passess on these virtues, I have a hard time believing stands for slavery and tyrannical magocracy. The Inner Sea World Guide states:
"Lissala was a goddess of runes, fate, and the reward of service, a being of harsh duty and obedience who rewarded her followers well. Her faith was strongest in the ancient empire of Thassilon, and shrines
and temples to her can still be found hidden in remote Thassilonian ruins in Varisia and Belkzen. As Thassilon grew more decadent, so did Lissala’s faithful—her cult was known for its flagellations, mortifications of the f lesh, and extravagant “Feasts of Sigils” on high holidays."
The beginning of that segment, and her introduction of the Virtues of Rule, makes me think Lissala was Lawful Neutral, but her faith slowly turned Lawful Evil, which would still be an applicable alignment for her clerics. It's not until the end of her entry that it states she is Lawful Evil, which, based off things I've seen from scatterings of information here and there, I think is wrong. However, I'm not a creator of Pathfinder, simply a player and GM, but as a GM, Lissala will be LN in my games; it's really the only alignment that fits in my opinion.
Nope; gods in Pathfinder are not powered by their faithful. A god with no worshipers can become forgotten, but does not die. Likewise, a god can't spontaneously manifest simply because it reaches some threshold of worship.
Gods don't need mortals to worship them to exist, in other words.
.
.Funny, The Demon lords are described as needing it for more power and ascending to godhood.
Another thing one might do is create one of those personality tests that go around every once in awhile. Except instead of questions, they would be scenarios and they would be scored on their response to the scenario. Like say 5 scenarios for each lawful, neutral and chaos for a total of 25 scenarios for that aspect of alignment. Each scenario would score between 1 and 5, and you total up each alignments points and the one with the highest score represents the characters alignment. So after the 25 scenarios, the character scored 17 lawful points, 12 neutral points, and 8 chaotic points, the character would be a Lawful God. What their responses were could also depecit what kind of god they were. If they solved their problems with combat, they'll be a combat oriented god, they could solve them diplomatically, stealthily, magically, etc. and it would determine what kind of god they would be. Like for instance, a wizard takes the test and mixes in charming people, using illusions and conjurations to take care of the scenarios with other spells thrown in when needed, but mainly those schools could be a God that focuses on the deceitful side of magic.
It's late and now I'm rambling and I'm going to stop before I get more crazy.
If you have plans to actually give your players concrete answers on what happens as opposed to the whole ride off into the sunset thing I would really get my PC's personality down before the test in order to find out just what they would be the god(ess) of, who would worship them, what domains/subdomains they would offer, favored weapon, holy symbol, etc. just on the off chance that somebody manages to pass. Because I mean if your going to do this then you may as well go all out.