Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list.
Came to mention this, saw it in the OP. Here's my +1
Archetypes that are not tied to specific classes. And/or Allowing multi classing and still progressing.
archetypes not tied to a specific base class you say?
Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list.Came to mention this, saw it in the OP. Here's my +1
Oh and just to note, the above mentioned super genius games magus (not to be confused with the magus from ultimate magic) can use the druid list as its primary spell list and is a spontaneous caster.
Shape-shifting really seems more like a specialty than a base class. It really seems like prestige class/homebrew territory. That said, a 'Shaman' that is a spontaneous version of a magus with a druid-esque spell list and shape shifting instead of an arcane pool would be the best addition, imo.Nice, but...
Edit: 'Lycan' implies excusive wolf-shifting and is synonomous with 'werewolf'. 'Therianthrope' might be more accurate but its a mouthful.
'Metamorph' is functional, but It sounds more like a feat tree.Any other suggestions guys?
You mean something that casts whilst fighting with natural weapons? Or that gets spellcasting at later levels etc? I agree that shapeshifting in itself can be a specialisation, and some discussed features could work as a prestige class. But then I'm personally not a fan of the magus or its ilk, seems like the class for people who like to have their cake and eat it too. Tho I admit it is better and more flavorful than 'Duskblades' ever were.
Would prefer something with shapeshifting from the start and some unique features and options based around it. Rather than an amalgam class that takes bits people like from other classes and throwing them together without thoughts as to balance, theme or cohesion. Though granted, with some tinkering I think your 'Shaman' concept would work. Its just that I think the current Wildshape ability modified is a better template to work form than using an 'Arcane pool'.
Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list.Came to mention this, saw it in the OP. Here's my +1
It can't be that hard to homebrew. Take Druid, add Oracle spell progression and spells known, and there you have it.
Archetypes that are not tied to specific classes. And/or Allowing multi classing and still progressing.archetypes not tied to a specific base class you say?
You could do it, but they'd have to be tied to things every class gets.
For example, BAB (turn 3/4 BAB to 1/2 BAB in exchange for something else), or Saves (changing from good to bad), or hit dice (changing from d10 to d8).
It can't be that hard to homebrew. Take Druid, add Oracle spell progression and spells known, and there you have it.Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list.Came to mention this, saw it in the OP. Here's my +1
Yes but theres nothing mechanically unique about it. Sorcerors have Bloodlines, Oracles have mysteries. This proposed shaman has...what?
Hence the earlier suggestions of merging with the 'shapeshifter' idea, and the various ideas of unique features. I like this idea because it distinguishes itself again from Bloodlines and Mysteries which when you strip away the flavor are mechanically similar. Like with the mystery and Bloodline features this then expands the class beyond a Palette swap Druid into a unique something.But if people dislike this 'Animus' concept, then what to propose in its stead?
I agree with a Swashbuckler type class. Here's my idea
Swashbuckler
Agile and daring, the Swashbuckler understands the need for style when in combat. Hailing from busy cities where a silver tongue and perchance for adventure are worth more than brute strength, relying on deceiving opponents and hitting them when their guards are down.
Full BAB/d10
Good Ref
Skill ranks: 4+int
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History), Linguistics, Profession, Stealth
Proficient with light and medium armor, simple weapons, plus the rapier
Class stuff: bonus Feats At the indicated levels, a Swashbuckler gains the following feats. They need not meet the prerequisites for them
At level 1: Weapon Finesse
At level 7: Skill Focus (any Charisma-based skill)
At level 13: Mobility
At level 19: any one critical feat
Silver Tongue: At level 2, a Swashbuckler may add half his Class level (minimum 1) on any Charisma-based skill. At level 8, A Swashbuckler may use the Feint Action as a move action. At level 14, he may use the Feint action as a swift Action.
Agile fighting: At level 3, a Swashbuckler learns how to use precision to lethally pierce through opponents' weaknesses. If a Swashbuckler is using a light piercing weapon or a rapier, he may add his dex to his weapon damage rolls instead of strength.
Sneak Attack: At level 4, the Swashbuckler gains this ability. It works like a rogue's sneak attack. At level 4 , and every 4 levels thereafter (8, 12, 16, 20) increase the damage dice (to a maximum of 5d6). A Swashbuckler may only may make a sneak attack if he is wearing light armor or no armor and wielding a one handed light handed weapon or a rapier.
Slippery: Beginning at level 5, a Swashbuckler begins to explore the art of grace. If a Swashbuckler is wearing light or no armor, he doubles his Dex bonus to CMD, Armor Class, Escape Artist checks, and Stealth checks. At level 11, a Swashbuckler gains Evasion. At level 17, a Swashbuckler may not be caught flatfooted.
Boisterous Resolve: At level 6, Once Per day, when a Swashbuckler fails a saving throw, he may reroll and add his cha as a circumstantial bonus. He may use this ability an additional time per day for each 6 levels past 6 (12 and 18)
Dramatic fighting: At level 9, a Swashbuckler adds his charisma to all critical confirmation rolls and to Acrobatics checks.
Dashing Swordsman: At level 10, a Swashbuckler may add his cha to all weapon damage rolls as long as he wields a light one handed piercing weapon or a rapier.
Shifty: At level 16, a Swashbuckler may take a 5-foot step twice during his turn. He still may not move (as with a regular five foot step)
Scoundrel: At level 20, a Swashbuckler becomes a master of graceful swordplay. Whenever he confirms a critical hit, the target takes bleed damage equal to the Swashbuckler's charisma modifier. In addition, he may choose to take 20 on any dex or cha based skill even during battle.
Thoughts? (Also, yes I got the Dashing Swordsman bit from Order of the stick. It's really hard to not try to include it)
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Archetypes that are not tied to specific classes. And/or Allowing multi classing and still progressing.archetypes not tied to a specific base class you say?You could do it, but they'd have to be tied to things every class gets.
For example, BAB (turn 3/4 BAB to 1/2 BAB in exchange for something else), or Saves (changing from good to bad), or hit dice (changing from d10 to d8).
Or to something several classes get, like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge. Though that's harder.
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Yes but theres nothing mechanically unique about it. Sorcerors have Bloodlines, Oracles have mysteries. This proposed shaman has...what?It can't be that hard to homebrew. Take Druid, add Oracle spell progression and spells known, and there you have it.Also, a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell list.Came to mention this, saw it in the OP. Here's my +1
(Ahem ...) Well, you could always be sure to check the Shaman class in the spring issue of Kobold Quarterly. Did I already mention that? :) In all seriousness, the class has a number of cool abilities which are more or less analogous to oracle mysteries and sorcerer bloodlines as well as being a spontaneous druid-type caster.
I'm really anxious for the issue to come out because I'm very stoked about the class!
You mean something that casts whilst fighting with natural weapons? Or that gets spellcasting at later levels etc? I agree that shapeshifting in itself can be a specialisation, and some discussed features could work as a prestige class. But then I'm personally not a fan of the magus or its ilk, seems like the class for people who like to have their cake and eat it too. Tho I admit it is better and more flavorful than 'Duskblades' ever were.
Would prefer something with shapeshifting from the start and some unique features and options based around it. Rather than an amalgam class that takes bits people like from other classes and throwing them together without thoughts as to balance, theme or cohesion. Though granted, with some tinkering I think your 'Shaman' concept would work. Its just that I think the current Wildshape ability modified is a better template to work form than using an 'Arcane pool'.
To be clear, I was suggesting ripping out arcane pool and replacing it with some sort of shifting progression. But since you brought up keeping some sort of Arcane pool...
Maybe we keep a 'shifting pool' that let's you alter you form somewhat on the fly. Maybe increasing your reach temporarily, or giving you an increase to size. Then you have your basic progression which lets you shift to a particular form for battle. 'Shaman' references so far in paizo sources lead me to believe that you will have some sort of totem you specialize in.
I'm not a fan of the Swashbuckler base class. There's already an archetype and a prestige class (Duelist) that fit this vein (tho they aren't too popular either). If anything I'd like to see the old 'Shackles Pirate' prestige class reimagined as a 'Pirate' base class (I suspect the names already taken). Reinventing an old fantasy meme rather than reinventing a old WotC class. Have something like a 'viking' or 'smuggler' archetypes to fit the meme. Throw in some class features that don't penalize you for prosthetic limbs, resilience to rum and a parot familiar and I'd be sold.
I see a shaman as a spontaneous casting druid with more focus on wild shaping. Maybe something along the lines of bloodlines but with animals?
Sorcs have Bloodlines, Oracles have Mysteries, and i would say Shamans getting totems, but barbarians already have that ability. I think Spirit Guide is also taken.
but I could see an ability we'll call BLANK for now, and
BLANK: A shaman is tuned to the spirit of an animal or idea, and receives extra powers and abilities from it.
at level 1, a shaman chooses a BLANK. Once the choice is made, it cannot be changed.
then each BLANK comes associated with bonus spells at level 3, 5, 7 etc (like a sorcerer). A few abilities (like the bloodline powers) that tie in to their BLANK. Instead of an Arcana, they can get a wildshape bonus.
Wildshape can come at level 3 (one level before druid) to accentuate how they are more suited for that sort of thing...it'd be interesting to see what people can come up with
I'm not a fan of the Swashbuckler base class. There's already an archetype and a prestige class (Duelist) that fit this vein (tho they aren't too popular either). If anything I'd like to see the old 'Shackles Pirate' prestige class reimagined as a 'Pirate' base class (I suspect the names already taken). Reinventing an old fantasy meme rather than reinventing a old WotC class. Have something like a 'viking' or 'smuggler' archetypes to fit the meme. Throw in some class features that don't penalize you for prosthetic limbs, resilience to rum and a parot familiar and I'd be sold.
I like the duelist myself, but I'm not a fan of precise strike because I think that you should be rewarded for maneuvering yourself to have the advantage over the opponent (by either feinting or flanking) as oppose to just "Add your level to damage" (Precise strike)
the familiar thing you can probably do if you are a wizard or any class that gets an animal companion :P. The Prosthetic limbs is more of a flavor thing than mechanic thing implementation-wise. Though I suppose you can always dip a level in oracle, hahaha
You mean something that casts whilst fighting with natural weapons? Or that gets spellcasting at later levels etc? I agree that shapeshifting in itself can be a specialisation, and some discussed features could work as a prestige class. But then I'm personally not a fan of the magus or its ilk, seems like the class for people who like to have their cake and eat it too. Tho I admit it is better and more flavorful than 'Duskblades' ever were.
Would prefer something with shapeshifting from the start and some unique features and options based around it. Rather than an amalgam class that takes bits people like from other classes and throwing them together without thoughts as to balance, theme or cohesion. Though granted, with some tinkering I think your 'Shaman' concept would work. Its just that I think the current Wildshape ability modified is a better template to work form than using an 'Arcane pool'.
To be clear, I was suggesting ripping out arcane pool and replacing it with some sort of shifting progression. But since you brought up keeping some sort of Arcane pool...
Maybe we keep a 'shifting pool' that let's you alter you form somewhat on the fly. Maybe increasing your reach temporarily, or giving you an increase to size. Then you have your basic progression which lets you shift to a particular form for battle. 'Shaman' references so far in paizo sources lead me to believe that you will have some sort of totem you specialize in.
hhhm... like a pool to spend on temporary 'evolution-esque' buffs to a given shape. Like granting attacks enhancement bonuses or alignments, or boosts to move speed or CMB etc. That could work quite nicely. Perhaps call the 'divine pool'. Perhaps call these points 'Anima', 'Spirit token', 'Totema', 'Wakan' etc. I like it.
That's not a bad concept, but I still like the idea of a martial shifter, not a caster.
I chose magus specifically because it is the most martial-oriented of the magical classes. Shape-shifting almost always entails magical ability after all.
That's not a bad concept, but I still like the idea of a martial shifter, not a caster.Shape-shifting really seems more like a specialty than a base class. It really seems like prestige class/homebrew territory. That said, a 'Shaman' that is a spontaneous version of a magus with a druid-esque spell list and shape shifting instead of an arcane pool would be the best addition, imo.Nice, but...
Edit: 'Lycan' implies excusive wolf-shifting and is synonomous with 'werewolf'. 'Therianthrope' might be more accurate but its a mouthful.
'Metamorph' is functional, but It sounds more like a feat tree.Any other suggestions guys?
Once the core class is defined, you could easily uses archetypes to trade out the spellcasting for one of the features I suggested earlier, or something like them. That kindoff variety would allow you both to play a class you like.
I'm not a fan of the Swashbuckler base class. There's already an archetype and a prestige class (Duelist) that fit this vein (tho they aren't too popular either). If anything I'd like to see the old 'Shackles Pirate' prestige class reimagined as a 'Pirate' base class (I suspect the names already taken). Reinventing an old fantasy meme rather than reinventing a old WotC class. Have something like a 'viking' or 'smuggler' archetypes to fit the meme. Throw in some class features that don't penalize you for prosthetic limbs, resilience to rum and a parot familiar and I'd be sold.I like the duelist myself, but I'm not a fan of precise strike because I think that you should be rewarded for maneuvering yourself to have the advantage over the opponent (by either feinting or flanking) as oppose to just "Add your level to damage" (Precise strike)
the familiar thing you can probably do if you are a wizard or any class that gets an animal companion :P. The Prosthetic limbs is more of a flavor thing than mechanic thing implementation-wise. Though I suppose you can always dip a level in oracle, hahaha
Don't you mean 'Hahaaaarrr'? XD
Arrr...methinks tha roleplayin' helps a lot when fightin'. Me high acrobatics allows me to jump around fighting, escaping from enemies to hit them again; and me rapier likes th' taste of them scurvy-ridden scallowags.
hhhm... like a pool to spend on temporary 'evolution-esque' buffs to a given shape. Like granting attacks enhancement bonuses or alignments, or boosts to move speed or CMB etc. That could work quite nicely. Perhaps call the 'divine pool'. Perhaps call these points 'Anima', 'Spirit token', 'Totema', 'Wakan' etc. I like it.
Glad you like it. I think the best application of such points would be to grant a temporary fly speed (around level 7 anyone?), wings included. Imagine escaping from a vicious bear by flying into the sky only to find out it just sprouted wings. Glorious.
This does not change my preference to keeping shifting out of a base class btw :P
Arrr...methinks tha roleplayin' helps a lot when fightin'. Me high acrobatics allows me to jump around fighting, escaping from enemies to hit them again; and me rapier likes th' taste of them scurvy-ridden scallowags.
Arr.. eye like the cut of yur jib mr Zolthux. But eye think that you haff ta remembarr that alot of Arr high-seas fightin tends to be on unusual footing, don'cha think? A good pirates gotta be able ta keep his head in the thick of battle, and know how ta fight both on the deck and the rigging above. Perhaps some trainin, in fightin in such locales wouldn't go amiss? Savvy?
hhhm... like a pool to spend on temporary 'evolution-esque' buffs to a given shape. Like granting attacks enhancement bonuses or alignments, or boosts to move speed or CMB etc. That could work quite nicely. Perhaps call the 'divine pool'. Perhaps call these points 'Anima', 'Spirit token', 'Totema', 'Wakan' etc. I like it.Glad you like it. I think the best application of such points would be to grant a temporary fly speed (around level 7 anyone?), wings included. Imagine escaping from a vicious bear by flying into the sky only to find out it just sprouted wings. Glorious.
This does not change my preference to keeping shifting out of a base class btw :P
Yeah but you'll come around. The spirits tell me so.
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I don't think any new base classes are necessary, nor any archetypes. But there are a few that I think would be nice to have, officially released and endorsed (so long as game balance is maintained and the system is not broken by bloat). My opinions of some of the suggestions seen so far:
If 'Artificer', 'Sage' and 'Inventor' are off limits...I like Daroob's suggestions of 'Engineer' and 'Technologist'.
I don't think 'Sage' is off-limits. You can't copy a direct class from VotC's stuff, but the word and the concept it represents are far too universal for any other game that happens to include 'sages' in its rules to have a real complaint. And I'd like to see 'Sages'. Also 'Engineers'. Both ideas would be very cool... although 'Engineers' might be a better archetype than their own class.
Oggron's other suggestions (including the ones repeated here)-- not to my taste, thank you very much.
I would like to see a spontaneous druid class, so that we have prepared/spontaneous casters for each major type (wizard/cleric/druid vs sorcerer/oracle/?????).
I would also like to see some more archetypes that allow non-skill monkey classes to become skill monkeys (IE: Give up something and have a fighter with 6+INT skills), such as Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard, etc. If not, I'd like to see a skilled combat type (Full BAB, 6+ Skills) base class.
Hmmm... a full BAB, fighting-type class, with 6 skill point per level... don't we already have one of those? lemme see... yeah, it's called the 'Ranger'. I'd be interested in seeing more archetypes (as mdt suggests) that put more skills into some of the other classes, but I don't think this should be taken overboard. Of course, more archetypes to modify the basic Ranger to different kinds of fighting skill-monkeys would be excellent.
Regarding a spontaneous, Druid-list based, caster? I'd really like to see that too.
Any Mental stat based fighter. Kinda like the duelist getting its Int bonus to AC.
Really nice idea, but I think it would be better done with archetypes than with a whole new base class. Other archetypes have changed a class's prime requisites before, so it's not out of bounds. I'd like to see more archetypes like this, though.
I want to see a warlocky class come back (although, since wizards owns that class it'ed have to be called something else), maybe done like this: warlock.
I want to see an official Pathfinder hexblade, although I did a conversion as well: hexblade
And I want a REAL assassin assassin, not that wimpy prestige class! I want to full bore base class James Bond style assassin with style!
I'd like to see an official class like the old Warlock too. Hexblade-- another one whose type might be better represented by an archetype-- a magus variant, for instance-- but that would be cool (although I suspect it would have to wear a new name).
Assassins? This is one place where I disagree. Is your character a contract killer, taking money to eliminate specific (usually politically significant and hard to reach) targets? Your character is an assassin (regardless of his/her actual class). If your character doesn't kill on contract, you're not really an assassin-- even if you have a class with that title. Personally, I don't feel that a class called 'the assassin' is really necessary or appropriate-- and I'm not so sure that you can't already play a character that has all of the (non-game breaking) abilities of the old Assassin class, with all of the base classes and archetypes already out there.
BTW-- MA-- didn't have a game last weekend. Will still be discussing your 'Mind Mage' with a few people this weekend, and then getting back to you on it.
Swashbuckler
IMO-- I really like Swashbucklers, I want to see more options for that type of character... but I still think it's better done with an archetype than a whole new class. If a new 'class' is made for it-- I see it as more of an 'alt-class' for fighter than something that's entirely its own animal.
I'd like to see Paizo's take on the Artificer and Factotom base classes.
Ah, and down to one of my old favorites, and a class I don't think we need. I'll start with the latter one:
I don't think we need 'Factotums' or something quite like them in Pathfinder (unless maybe you're planning on solo games-- 1 player, 1 GM). The factotum in 3.5, depending on how far the player decided to 'use, abuse, and misuse' its special abilities, could be horribly broken in play. Even when not broken-- what's the point of the rest of the party, if you have one character that can quite literally do everything?
Artificers on the other hand (yes, I played in some extended Eberron campaigns in 3.5)... the name's not copyrighted solely to VotC-- Chivalry and Sorcery had 'Artificers' in that game in the '80s; but I understand not being able to simply use an adaption of the Eberron class in PF. However, something like that-- say, a 'Mage-Smith' for instance-- a crafter who specializes in the making, enchantment, and enhancement of magic items and equipment, is something I'd really like to see (even if it's put in place as primarily an NPC type class). Lots of angles you can go with it-- I'd like to see one that's still more magical than one that's primarily technological.
Oggron's other suggestions (including the ones repeated here)-- not to my taste, thank you very much.
All of them? O.O
Pretty sure you didn't read all of them... *sob*Still no big, was just brainstorming.
But I think alot of your comments are on the money there, save for the part about archetypes. More options make players happy and at least most of the ones printed so far are balanced ways of customizing a character classes 'feel'. I think Paizo could do another 50 odd (figure pulled from the air) Archetypes easy. Whether they incorporate any of these ideas to everyones satisfaction is another story?
Can you trade out spells for full BAB? I don't think that's done anywhere and it's sort of essential to a full on martial character.Once the core class is defined, you could easily uses archetypes to trade out the spellcasting for one of the features I suggested earlier, or something like them. That kindoff variety would allow you both to play a class you like.That's not a bad concept, but I still like the idea of a martial shifter, not a caster.Shape-shifting really seems more like a specialty than a base class. It really seems like prestige class/homebrew territory. That said, a 'Shaman' that is a spontaneous version of a magus with a druid-esque spell list and shape shifting instead of an arcane pool would be the best addition, imo.Nice, but...
Edit: 'Lycan' implies excusive wolf-shifting and is synonomous with 'werewolf'. 'Therianthrope' might be more accurate but its a mouthful.
'Metamorph' is functional, but It sounds more like a feat tree.Any other suggestions guys?
You got my vote. I feel that a full BAB wildshaper would be more novel than a palette swap Oracle. But I was thinking more along the lines of a compromize between the two where you end up with a Ranger or Paladin spell progression in the base form, which you could then strip out entirely for something like what the Trapper archetype does for the Ranger.
I think the oracular spontaneous casting ideas so popular because the druid version would fill the 'oracle' niche of the nature casters. In the way that in terms of just spell progression, the Ranger is the nature paladin and the druid is the nature cleric (tho thats a gross oversimplification).
Something that brings the 3.5 Warlock over (If not in name) would get my money and endorsement. Warlock was my favorite class.
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Something that brings the 3.5 Warlock over (If not in name) would get my money and endorsement. Warlock was my favorite class.
Don't really think we need another Arcane caster.
We already have Wizards, Sorcerors, Bards, Summoners, Witches etc (that last technically being a 'Warlock' if male)Personally I always kinda liked the Dragon Shaman. Especially the Flavor and some of the Mechanics like the Draconic Aura and the Totem. Though strangely not the Dragon part. Someday I think I must be very odd to be a non-Dracophile on an RPG board. I think that something along these lines would work for the 'missing' something that the proposed 'oracular druid/shaman' class. Fully embrace the Animus/Totema theme rather than just dipping its toes in like the Barbarian Archetype. Get some Aura's, Rituals, 'Rain dances' etc. Have a rechargeable divine power source (Totem) for abilities like the 'divine pool' (Spirit Token) idea and wild shaping. Throw in some of the Talents I posed before.
One 'Class' my groups discussed before as a niche comes from superhero genre. That is the powerset of characters like the Atom, Giganta, Stature, Ant-man, Wasp, Makarov etc. Bear with me cos this is very breakable idea.
This is just off the top of my head. We called it the 'Magnitus', as in Magnitude.
You have a class without full BAB progression (it gets a lot of abilities that more than offset that), that has spell-like abilities that allow you to change size as a standard action for a number of rounds each day equal to X + levelx2 + CON.
Start off with Large/Small and expand the available categories every 6 levels or so that at 18th you can go Fine or Colossal. Equipment and items shrink/grow with you. And a Full round changes you by 2 categories in one direction, or just a standard to change one.
Class feature that lets you change back to normal sized at 5th level as a move action. Note that for small races they get access to medium and large size transformations at 1st.
Level 10 lets you change one size category as a move action, and back to normal size as a free action.
Level 15 lets you change 2x size categories at once as a move.
Capstone ability allows you change from any size to any other size as a move action (this allows the sneak into baddy orifice and grow to full size tactic). Though they'd get something like an opposed constitution check to see whose damaged the most by this.
((Alternatively if 2 Size categories per 6 levels is imbalanced, how about 1 per 4 levels that lets you reach colossal or fine sized at 20th level?))
Ideas for class features:
(Note: too many for one class so these could be feats or archetype replacement features)
>Spell-like abilities around shrinking or enlarging allies, objects and enemies
>Bonus feats that let you wield oversized weapons at reduced penalties in base form. Though this wouldn't stack up in sizes beyond large.
>Class features that mitigate the size penalties. Choosing either Dex o Str to reduce the penalty by a small amount every 4 levels or so.
>A class feature that lets you control which square you shrink into. For example going from 30ft of space as a Colossal sized dude down to medium, picking one of the 30 squares
>Catch off guard, Throw anything as bonus feats?
>Rock throwing, rock catching, giant-like heavy object throwing feats etc. Combined with the above to fight with trees.
>Getting a free Stealth check in plain sight when shrinking to small size rapidly, extra stealth bonuses.
>A perception bonus for seeing things at long distance and a penalty for spotting small objects whilst enlarged, but the reverse when reduced.
>Getting a free bull rush attempt when growing rapidly to push enemies out of your squares as you grow in size. Bonuses on these.
>Insight bonuses for damaging structures and objects
>Bodyguard-esque features that help you protect your smaller allies by taking damage in their place or bonuses letting them use you for cover. And when shrunk, you use them for the same bonuses.
>Precision damage on enemies when small, attack bonuses to offset size penalties.
>Able to use escape artist whilst shrunk to squeeze your way inside enemies bodies and allow you to deal ability damage from targetting organs.
>CMB/CMD bonuses. Abilities that let you pick up and throw enemies/allies.
>Spell-like Barkskin and feather fall from density manipulation
>A x/day size change as a swift action to rapidly gain AC or CMD bonuses.
>Something that stops you from provoking AoO when size changing or using your size change abilities
>Something that lets you use trample, crushing damage etc when stamping or jumping on enemies.
>Similarly something that lets you generate small tremors to knock enemies prone like the feat from Tome of Monsters Complete. Smash or something?
>Abilities like intimidating presence that make creatures smaller than you cower in fear.
>Ability that lets allies climb you and fight from your shoulders, or that lets you use a free hand as an unstable platform and allows you to grant them elevation bonuses as a move action.
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Here's some gaps I feel could be shored up by a full base class (and not just an extra archetype or two).
Mystic Theurge: That's right, do your divine/arcane spellcasting from day one. Take the route the Magus offered of a unique ability driven single class version of the Eldritch Knight, and make a unique ability driven single class version of the Mystic Theurge.
And I'm not just talking about a mixed spell list (Witch, Bard, etc).
I mean the class is supposed to be an academic who is mixing religion and arcane arts. He prays for some of his spells, and studies some others. Give him some really neat abilities to mix those spell types together and make him a full spell caster from day one.
Maybe even mix up the casting methods.. some spells he has to memorize from a fixed list (typical for divine), others he can memorize from a spellbook (typical for arcane), and yet others he can cast anytime spontaneously (a shortlist of either arcane or divine!).
You should check this.
Shapeshifter: The reason this needs to be a base class is because of two reasons. First, he needs to be able to feel like a shapeshifter right out of the gate. Second, he needs to be able to have archetypes for the various different kinds of shifters.
I can think of 4 types off the top of my head:1. Offspring of a Doppleganger. Focused on sneaking and infiltration stuff, detect thoughts, masking alignment, gaining all proficiencies, etc. Sort of how the Ranger is, only more spy-oriented.
This + Master Spy levels.
2. A lycanthrope (or therianthrope if you prefer). Focusing on bestial changes, possibly the option for 3 forms, choosing a specific animal (or maybe even a couple, allowing other modes of travel and sneaking).
3. Descendants of Oni (or Ogre Mages, Rakshasa, etc). More of a "Creepy" factor, changes coming from a spirit or possession, very likely battle hardy (Regeneration or DR, etc).
Half-orc race, Orc bloodline, plus this ? Can be easily changed to accomodate more the fighty thematic than the creepy one by not changing some bloodline powers.
4. Purely Fey or Nature based. Changing into animals wholly (not partially like the lycanthrope), or even plants, fish,...
This. Hope this helps if your game allows 3PP or homebrew if it helps you play your role without breaking the game. :)
While I think that there is already a good number of 20-level base classes, I think that Pathfinder could benefit a great deal from adding a few more. Yes, the archetype system allows for a great deal of diversity and customization in addition to the choices that can already be made with a class. And yes, I know that WotC overdid it, but I think the issue with 3.5 class bloat was more with prestige classes than base classes. I don't want ten or probably even five more.
Wait, are you counting right?
Did you know most people count archetypes (alternate class features) as classes?The real number of 3.5 PC classes is pretty not that bad (we aren't counting 3.0 or NPC classes or campaign only classes):
Core has 11: Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorceror, Wizard
PHB 2 has 4: Duskblade, Dragon Shaman, Knight, Beguiler
CD has 3: Favored Soul, Shujenga, Spirit Shaman
CA has 3: Warlock, Wu Jen, Warmage
CV has 3: Ninja, Scout, Spellthief
CW has 3: Hexblade, Samurai (although it is mostly a variant Fighter as every class feature is a feat), swashbuckler
XPH has 4: Psion, Psiwarrior, Wilder, Soulknife (only non-psionic class in book)
HH has 2: Archivist, Dread Necro,
MOI has 3: Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemic
Tome of Magic has 3: Binder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer
CP has 3: Ardent, Divine Mind, lurk
ToB has 3: Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader
Dragon Magic has 1: Dragonfire Adept
Total =56
We can probably minus the Samurai as he was just preselected feat Fighter (no really look in Complete Warrior and take Kai Shout (to emulate Intimidate class features) and you are better.
Yes, you lack Kaia Smite but it is 1 attack and you need a dump stat (cha) so eh.
Pathfinder is currently: 11 core + 8 base 4 psionic core + 4 psionic base= 27.
There is a lot more archetypes in Pathfinder, but 3.5 had a decent number as well.
I saw the magister. It looks really good, but I suppose I'd like a Pathfinder version. Nothing against 3pp, but a lot of GMs in my area don't allow 3PP products.
Aside from a Spirit Shaman and the Mystic Theruge base 20 classes, I'd really like to see a base 20 Blood Mage. Perhaps something akin to the Bloatmage only minus the corpulence.
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This then ?
Btw, just remind said DMs that a lot of the people who write the core books are the exact same that write for 3PP. Just sayin'.
This then ?
Btw, just remind said DMs that a lot of the people who write the core books are the exact same that write for 3PP. Just sayin'.
Looks good but still a prestige class.
While I think that there is already a good number of 20-level base classes, I think that Pathfinder could benefit a great deal from adding a few more. Yes, the archetype system allows for a great deal of diversity and customization in addition to the choices that can already be made with a class. And yes, I know that WotC overdid it, but I think the issue with 3.5 class bloat was more with prestige classes than base classes. I don't want ten or probably even five more.
Wait, are you counting right?
Did you know most people count archetypes (alternate class features) as classes?The real number of 3.5 PC classes is pretty not that bad (we aren't counting 3.0 or NPC classes or campaign only classes):
Core has 11: Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorceror, Wizard
PHB 2 has 4: Duskblade, Dragon Shaman, Knight, Beguiler
CD has 3: Favored Soul, Shujenga, Spirit Shaman
CA has 3: Warlock, Wu Jen, Warmage
CV has 3: Ninja, Scout, Spellthief
CW has 3: Hexblade, Samurai (although it is mostly a variant Fighter as every class feature is a feat), swashbuckler
XPH has 4: Psion, Psiwarrior, Wilder, Soulknife (only non-psionic class in book)
HH has 2: Archivist, Dread Necro,
MOI has 3: Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemic
Tome of Magic has 3: Binder, Shadowcaster, Truenamer
CP has 3: Ardent, Divine Mind, lurk
ToB has 3: Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader
Dragon Magic has 1: Dragonfire Adept
Total =56
** spoiler omitted **
Pathfinder is currently: 11 core + 8 base 4 psionic core + 4 psionic base= 27.There is a lot more archetypes in Pathfinder, but 3.5 had a decent number as well.
Holy crap. That's way more than I thought. So maybe there was some nas class bloat issues, eh? But I definitely wouldn't count archetypes as separate classes. Alternate classes I might, maybe, sort of, a little bit. And were you saying 3.5 had a decent number of archetypes? I've ready pretty much every 3.5 book and I don't once recall the archetype concept. Although you probably meant base classes and were counting archetypes for pathfinder. Also keep in mind that the psionic classes in pathfinder are 3PP. While I do personally include the 4 base ones in my world (I don't have the new psionics stuff yet), a lot of people have a magical barrier that prevents any third party from entering their game. Me, to an extent. And since they're 3PP, and the forum pretty explicitly deals with Paizo, they don't really apply.
Side note: I forgot about some of those 3.5 ones. Some were damn cool.
I think there should be more npc classes, m'self.
:D
Now that I rethink it, an artificer class would probably be best as an alt class. Better still, a pair of alternate classes. Have a weird inventor as an alchemist alt class, and a pet focused crafter as a summoner alt.
The shape shifter idea sounds cool.
I think there should be more npc classes, m'self.
:D
I would dig that
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Oggron's other suggestions (including the ones repeated here)-- not to my taste, thank you very much.
All of them? O.O
Pretty sure you didn't read all of them... *sob*
Still no big, was just brainstorming.But I think alot of your comments are on the money there, save for the part about archetypes. More options make players happy and at least most of the ones printed so far are balanced ways of customizing a character classes 'feel'. I think Paizo could do another 50 odd (figure pulled from the air) Archetypes easy. Whether they incorporate any of these ideas to everyones satisfaction is another story?
Well, the other suggestions that I chopped for space that were specifically in that post seemed like they were all variations on the Technomancer and Gadgeteer and that sort of thing... and I'm (personally) not interested in throwing a lot of steam-punk or other non-magic tech into my fantasy game. I can't say I've had the chance to check the suggestions from every post you've made, though-- but I will try to check them all out. This thread is growing like a forest full of super-weeds...
Doesn't mean you're wrong on any of the ideas from that post... just means it's stuff you like that I'm not fond of (there's room for both of our interests in the overall universe of game ideas). :)
Heh no worries Finn K. I'd be hesitant to add steam punk elements into a fantasy setting as well. I mean I currently don't allow Monk, Samurai or Ninja cos of the setting disparity of having asian classes in a the african colonial setting of serpents skull (plus I don't have those books so theres a definite limitation there).
But the thread is about finding a unique niche and the consensus seems to be that the 'Artificer/Technomancer' is one such class. I suppose ultimately my suggestions on this meme could be used as archetypes. But one could just as easily make a flavorful class with a bunch of elements from this thread. Coupla archetypes too.
That isn't to say there actually should be an extra base class. Just saying there could be one based on this concept.
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The group I'm in does not allow 3PP stuff, except on a very, very limited, case-by-case exception basis. Since we've started playing PF after closing up the last 3.5 campaign, we also do not allow material from 3.5 except on a very, very limited, case-by-case exception basis.
We found that including 3PP stuff on a general basis in our 3.5 games resulted in an almost guaranteed disruption of game-balance and playability; and have seen no reason to believe it wouldn't have that effect on our PF games.
There is a lot more trust on our part for Paizo being careful not to screw that up in official products. Used to have that trust for VotC in the 3.5 days, although rampant progression of the 'the bloat' (without concern for how new stuff would interact with old) made it badly misplaced... So far, I have reasonable confidence that whatever else Paizo does, there's enough continuity, Paizo staff remaining the same people from year to year, and genuine care and concern for their game that I don't worry as much about that happening in official PF stuff.
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Heh no worries Finn K. I'd be hesitant to add steam punk elements into a fantasy setting as well. I mean I currently don't allow Monk, Samurai or Ninja cos of the setting disparity of having asian classes in a the african colonial setting of serpents skull (plus I don't have those books so theres a definite limitation there).
But the thread is about finding a unique niche and the consensus seems to be that the 'Artificer/Technomancer' is one such class. I suppose ultimately my suggestions on this meme could be used as archetypes. But one could just as easily make a flavorful class with a bunch of elements from this thread. Coupla archetypes too.
That isn't to say there actually should be an extra base class. Just saying there could be one based on this concept.
*nodnods* no worries on my side either-- just wanted to make sure I wasn't unnecessarily offending with my posts. :D
While we're on the subject of what we like or don't like in different fantasy environments though-- I'd like to see a really good artificer, but am not so interested in what I see as most of the technomancer/gadgeteer builds, because I am a big fan of "Magic AS Technology", but not a fan of "Technology as an alternative to Magic" (in worlds that have both) in my high fantasy games. Now if the set-up was something like Shadow Run, I'd be generally more interested in mixing the two.
Heh no worries Finn K. I'd be hesitant to add steam punk elements into a fantasy setting as well. I mean I currently don't allow Monk, Samurai or Ninja cos of the setting disparity of having asian classes in a the african colonial setting of serpents skull (plus I don't have those books so theres a definite limitation there).
But the thread is about finding a unique niche and the consensus seems to be that the 'Artificer/Technomancer' is one such class. I suppose ultimately my suggestions on this meme could be used as archetypes. But one could just as easily make a flavorful class with a bunch of elements from this thread. Coupla archetypes too.
That isn't to say there actually should be an extra base class. Just saying there could be one based on this concept.
*nodnods* no worries on my side either-- just wanted to make sure I wasn't unnecessarily offending with my posts. :D
While we're on the subject of what we like or don't like in different fantasy environments though-- I'd like to see a really good artificer, but am not so interested in what I see as most of the technomancer/gadgeteer builds, because I am a big fan of "Magic AS Technology", but not a fan of "Technology as an alternative to Magic" (in worlds that have both) in my high fantasy games. Now if the set-up was something like Shadow Run, I'd be generally more interested in mixing the two.
Don't see any reason why the two concepts have to be mutually exclusive or render the other redundant. Better if magic and tech work together.
I have a similar policy since changing to pfrpg. Have only allowed 7 3.5/3pp feats and a select amount of items to enter my games. I would recommend Wolgang Bauers 'advanced feats' series published from Open Design. theres about 4-5 feats in those 9 pdf's I'd deem to be imbalanced, but with a few tweaks they are playeable.
Personally I'm not a fan of Super genius games 3pp. They seem to be in quite a rush to add class bloat. But a friend of mine bought some of their newer stuff so now I gotta review it for balance. ends up being quite a pain when players buy 3pp wanting to use it but only think as far as 'ooh shiny', not 'is this balanced?' or 'does this make sense in my setting'?
I'd like to see an official class like the old Warlock too. Hexblade-- another one whose type might be better represented by an archetype-- a magus variant, for instance-- but that would be cool (although I suspect it would have to wear a new name).
Assassins? This is one place where I disagree. Is your character a contract killer, taking money to eliminate specific (usually politically significant and hard to reach) targets? Your character is an assassin (regardless of his/her actual class). If your character doesn't kill on contract, you're not really an assassin-- even if you have a class with that title. Personally, I don't feel that a class called 'the assassin' is really necessary or appropriate-- and I'm not so sure that you can't already play a character that has all of the (non-game breaking) abilities of the old Assassin class, with all of the base classes and archetypes already out there.
BTW-- MA-- didn't have a game last weekend. Will still be discussing your 'Mind Mage' with a few people this weekend, and then getting back to you on it.
The problem with having the hexblade (and I did rename mine as the Witchblade, after all Pathfinder has a Witch) as a magus archetype is that the Hexblade is 1-4 level caster with full BAB (like the Paladin or Ranger, only arcane) wheras the Magus is a 0-6 level caster with moderate BAB.
Assassins--done right--can be a very plausible concept class. But, I accept that we'll have to disagree here and move on.
Hey, whenever you can: I'm not planning on having a stroke or heart attack in the next few days after all. LOL
Master Arminas
Stabbitydoom took my post.... because I want to run a group of all shapeshifters, our battle cry will be "Transform and roll out!" or "Transform and rise up!" depending on alignment.
A lot of the things posted I think could be handled by a alternate class. Artificers could be a rebuild of Summoner, Swashbuckler of Rogue, and you could probably do a totem warrior with the Barbarian (think Jaguar Warriors, not Berserkers). I'd personally like to see a more mystical version of the monk (6 level spellcaster).
While I don't like the idea of a shapeshifter class, it seems like a lot of people want it so I have no problem if Paizo does it.
Oggron, SKR and the people hiring freelancers for Paizo love SGG. Just throwing that out there. Can't be any worse than the summoner, at least.
I agree with Evil Lincoln. I can't think of anything that I really want that warrants a new class. There are things I'd like, but nothing needed.
Paizo has said that they wanted to get all the classes out of the way ASAP though, which they've done already. I doubt there'll be a new class anytime soon.
Oggron, SKR and the people hiring freelancers for Paizo love SGG. Just throwing that out there. Can't be any worse than the summoner, at least.
I agree with Evil Lincoln. I can't think of anything that I really want that warrants a new class. There are things I'd like, but nothing needed.
Paizo has said that they wanted to get all the classes out of the way ASAP though, which they've done already. I doubt there'll be a new class anytime soon.
Eh, the problem with archetypes is that they are saddled with the other class abilities of their base class. It's difficult to make an archetype really feel like its own thing, rather than a minor variation on what already existed.
I put forth a Swashbuckler and Martial Artist base class, and I truly believe that those could be made unique enough to warrant to be full-on new base classes and they would fill in much needed niches even on Golarion.