And those of us that complained about the cover got a lot of "You just want all women in art to be ugly like you!" type comments.
Yeah, that's another thing: Comments like that always crop up. And, worse yet, some people seem to actually treat them like valid arguments.
Keep in mind that I like the occasional pin-up. But it's different when it's meant to be a pin-up, know what I'm saying?
Ion Raven: Agreed wholeheartedly.
Fionnabhair: Do you have a newsletter? I wish to subscribe. :)
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Today, nobody escapes society's demands on them, demands that may hurt quite a lot, especially over time. Women are treated badly. Men are treated badly. Women feel pressured to fit in. Men feel pressured to fit in. Venting about this, claiming that "everything is the fault of the privileged other sex!" solves nothing. Men can't appreciate how difficult it is to be sexually harassed. Women can't understand the dynamics of physical violence in what men are typically subjected to.
Privilege is the wrong word - we are talking about two scales here. On the scale of companies, rulesets, modules and the like, sex sells whether anyone likes it or not. The contents of images and such will only change if the gamer customer base changes in composition, something that IS happening even today. On the other scale, the gaming table, we are talking about small groups of friends. As has been noted several times, being a douchebag in such settings comes with a pretty high risk of being kicked out. If you read enough in the Advice forum, you will see what I am talking about.
Uh, are you implying that majority of most groups are subconsciously misogynistic?
No. I am stating that a fair number of groups will use language that will be perceived as misogynistic. It is entirely possible to make say, the broad sword joke, without any underlying malice behind it.
If so, then yeah fewer women would game. In a group that doesn't constantly make comments to degrade women and actually want to include girls in their group, it's the one guy who wants to make such comments that's asking his feelings to be weighted over everyone else.
I don't think the ratio's quite work out that way.
Those are the social expectations sometimes spread by the media. It doesn't reflect reality.
I'm not buying the media conspiracy hypothesis, sorry. I think it got to be a meme because of a basis in reality. I realize that it doesn't hold true for every individual but I've seen the trend too often to think its been fabricated whole cloth.
`
Saying that men don't respond insults and bashing. Saying that women can't handle insults. It's a false and offensive belief to both genders.
Well then, why does the geeking groups behavior need to change if women can handle the challenge and insults? Is there something inherently wrong with beefcake, poorly played (by male) female characters, and bad gender related puns?
If you believe that, then you treat those that don't fit into that model as outcasts (and of course those type of people will avoid you).
This goes back to my differences above.
How do guys treat outcasts? Fists to the face and thrown food.
How do girls treat an outcast? Snide comments, social condemnation, and saying mean things.
That's how guys treat their friends. It comes across as an attempt to drive someone off but its not.
Just because something is perceived as being hateful of women doesn't mean that it is. I often hear that guys can't possibly be that clueless or that simple... and we definitely can be. The assumption is that the geek knows exactly what they're doing and has some greater underlying motivations or Machiavellian plot and I don't think thats usually the case.
The point is that we adjust our behaviour based on where we are and who else is present. As far as I'm concerned that's just common courtesy. Group dynamics are going to change when somebody else joins the group, whether that person is another guy, a child or a woman.
And do you think you would adjust it exactly the same for a new guy or a new woman?
And do you think you would adjust it exactly the same for a new guy or a new woman?
The point is that we adjust our behaviour based on where we are and who else is present. As far as I'm concerned that's just common courtesy. Group dynamics are going to change when somebody else joins the group, whether that person is another guy, a child or a woman.
Do you think you would not adjust it differently for two different men who were new to your group?
Do you think you would not adjust it differently for two different men who were new to your group?
Not pre emptively, no.
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Gotta back Fenris here. Until I get a handle on the new guy/girl, I'm gonna continue to be me. Probably will STILL contine to be me AFTER I get a handle on them. If you don't like it, tell me to shut up. I might even do so. But don't expect me to change who I am just because you join a group of people that is already pretty comfortable with me being me.
Do you think you would not adjust it differently for two different men who were new to your group?And do you think you would adjust it exactly the same for a new guy or a new woman?
The point is that we adjust our behaviour based on where we are and who else is present. As far as I'm concerned that's just common courtesy. Group dynamics are going to change when somebody else joins the group, whether that person is another guy, a child or a woman.
If a new guy joins my gaming group, my behavior would change after I met him, with mostly minor adjustments. If a new girl joined, the whole group would change drastically before we met her, and then adjust based off of her behavior and level of comfort.
Edit: this has happened in the past, where the guys were nicer than normal with the girl, and she thought they hated her when they liked her.
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BNW, the more I read from you, the more I believe that your social scope is severely limited. Maybe it's because I moved around a lot when I was younger, so I got to see differing social norms between different people.
I've seen violent women who would back hand or tear up others they disliked.
I've seen men that would just sneer and use social pressure to outcast others they felt didn't fit their view of elitism.
Tropes in the media do not mean that it's prevalent in real life. It's only indicative of how the writer perceives or wishes to portray the situation. TVland is not reality.
There are many posters on this forum that will describe just how different their experiences are from what media portrays. Is there some reason that we should hold your experiences over others because it aligns more closely to popular media?
BNW, the more I read from you, the more I believe that your social scope is severely limited. Maybe it's because I moved around a lot when I was younger, so I got to see differing social norms between different people.
I've seen violent women who would back hand or tear up others they disliked.
I've seen men that would just sneer and use social pressure to outcast others they felt didn't fit their view of elitism.
Tropes in the media do not mean that it's prevalent in real life. It's only indicative of how the writer perceives or wishes to portray the situation. TVland is not reality.
There are many posters on this forum that will describe just how different their experiences are from what media portrays. Is there some reason that we should hold your experiences over others because it aligns more closely to popular media?
BNW is describing the general dynamics standard to tech-based gaming groups. Every engineering college or game store near one I have noticed exactly what he is describing from the gaming comunity, as well as from most cons I have been to.
BNW, the more I read from you, the more I believe that your social scope is severely limited. Maybe it's because I moved around a lot when I was younger, so I got to see differing social norms between different people.
I've seen violent women who would back hand or tear up others they disliked.
I've seen men that would just sneer and use social pressure to outcast others they felt didn't fit their view of elitism.
Tropes in the media do not mean that it's prevalent in real life. It's only indicative of how the writer perceives or wishes to portray the situation. TVland is not reality.
There are many posters on this forum that will describe just how different their experiences are from what media portrays. Is there some reason that we should hold your experiences over others because it aligns more closely to popular media?
I didn't realize we'd met, Raven...
BNW is describing the general dynamics standard to tech-based gaming groups. Every engineering college or game store near one I have noticed exactly what he is describing from the gaming comunity, as well as from most cons I have been to.
And, not to pile on BNW, no one's arguing that such groups don't exist. It is however emblematic of the the description of male entitlement in the article that started the thread.
BNW is describing the general dynamics standard to tech-based gaming groups. Every engineering college or game store near one I have noticed exactly what he is describing from the gaming comunity, as well as from most cons I have been to.
Uh... I got into gaming with a group from my programming class. While I have not gamed at a game store or con, I'm pretty sure you could call that group tech-based. It does not fit at all with BNW's description. I really can't speak for all or most tech-based groups, but I've met plenty of other gamers (not of the tech field) since then. Most are rather social and I've only ever met one that fit BNW's description of the typical male gamer. In fact I've met more males that had skewed perceptions of women that didn't play tabletop games (They preferred MMOs and graphics to dice). I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky.
I didn't realize we'd met, Raven...
O_o I didn't either...
BNW, the more I read from you, the more I believe that your social scope is severely limited. Maybe it's because I moved around a lot when I was younger, so I got to see differing social norms between different people.
I've seen violent women who would back hand or tear up others they disliked.
I've seen men that would just sneer and use social pressure to outcast others they felt didn't fit their view of elitism.
See, I'm not denying that these people exist. I'm saying they don't exist in the same proportions across gender lines. There's a huge difference, and you're responding to one statement as if i were making the other one.
Tropes in the media do not mean that it's prevalent in real life. It's only indicative of how the writer perceives or wishes to portray the situation. TVland is not reality.
No, its an exagerated picture of reality, a fun house mirror to reality. There's no doubt that it distorts reality but it needs to reflect something in that reality or it won't be relatable to the viewers.
There are many posters on this forum that will describe just how different their experiences are from what media portrays. Is there some reason that we should hold your experiences over others because it aligns more closely to popular media?
Yes, because if I'm wrong the entire problem being described in the article doesn't exist.
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Yes, because if I'm wrong the entire problem being described in the article doesn't exist.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying that it's nowhere near prevalent as you or the article claim it is. The article is offensive because it assumes that every male, white gamer is that guy.
It may not happen a lot, but when it does happen it's still wrong.
Both you and the article are exaggerating the amount of sexism that gets thrown around, however where the article says "give up the male privilege" you're saying that you deserve this male privilege because "gamers consist mostly of males" and "gaming is a predominately male hobby".
Look I don't care what goes on at your table, and I sure would hate to join you and interrupt your fun. I won't stop you as long as you keep at your table.
Regardless, no amount perceived predominance excuses making such off-color remarks in public. Yes, there will be women who will take it and stride and just ignore such comments, but that doesn't make it not insulting. Asking others to not make such off-color remarks in public will not ruin the hobby. No one is going to bust your door down and stop you from gaming because of how you speak to your friends about whatever subjects, but stop painting the gaming community as if everybody is you.
Actually I've never seen the violence he suggests as the default male way of handling outcasts applied with a gaming group. I've seen plenty of passive-aggressive behavior, plenty of just not inviting the outcast guy back, etc, but no actual "fists to the face".
Read any of the threads about dealing with problem players to see examples.I've certainly seen, particularly back in high/middle school, plenty of violence directed at the gamer geeks from other kids.
In highschool, I've seen more fights between girls than I have of guys. Though I think it has something to do with them not wanting to get kicked off the football team or something.
Those fights (which were much more violent than the fight I saw of the guys) and field hockey are enough to give the trope that guys are more violent a run for its money...
Actually I've never seen the violence he suggests as the default male way of handling outcasts applied with a gaming group. I've seen plenty of passive-aggressive behavior, plenty of just not inviting the outcast guy back, etc, but no actual "fists to the face".
Read any of the threads about dealing with problem players to see examples.I've certainly seen, particularly back in high/middle school, plenty of violence directed at the gamer geeks from other kids.
I've only seen somebody hit someone else at the gaming table one time. I really don't think it's at all common.
Actually I've never seen the violence he suggests as the default male way of handling outcasts applied with a gaming group. I've seen plenty of passive-aggressive behavior, plenty of just not inviting the outcast guy back, etc, but no actual "fists to the face".
Read any of the threads about dealing with problem players to see examples.I've certainly seen, particularly back in high/middle school, plenty of violence directed at the gamer geeks from other kids.
In highschool, I've seen more fights between girls than I have of guys. Though I think it has something to do with them not wanting to get kicked off the football team or something.
Those fights (which were much more violent than the fight I saw of the guys) and field hockey are enough to give the trope that guys are more violent a run for its money...
Both you and the article are exaggerating the amount of sexism that gets thrown around, however where the article says "give up the male privilege" you're saying that you deserve this male privilege because "gamers consist mostly of males" and "gaming is a predominately male hobby".
VERY close. I'm saying its not a male privilege at all. Its a majorities privilege to decide what is the right and acceptable behavior for their group in their circumstances even when that group is largely male. There is nothing objectively wrong with beef cake, broad sword references, fart jokes, and off color humor.
Going to need the extra large sabre toothed tiger skin tunic and club for this part...
For a woman to come into a gaming group and expect that to change because 'I am a woman i know how to behave and you are all behaving inappropriately' is an enormous female privilege. Its so prevalent you simply take it as a given that that's how its going to work and that the rest of the group will bow to your whims.
Part of what causes the tension is that a girl walks into the group with the assumption that this is how its going to be because thats what society does. With many gaming groups you have at least a few people that either don't know or simply care that that's an underlying rule of male female interaction.
The guy keeps doing what he's always been doing, and that gets misinterpreted as rejection.
Look I don't care what goes on at your table, and I sure would hate to join you and interrupt your fun. I won't stop you as long as you keep at your table.
Well, that would be a question of who's table is it now wouldn't it? The article, and some people on the forums, seem to be running into tables where this sort of thing is fairly prevalent.
Regardless, no amount perceived predominance excuses making such off-color remarks in public.
More of the 'you will conform to my standards' assumption.
Do you walk into a football stadium and say "Excuse me.. you do not take your shirt off in the middle of winter, paint yourself blue and scream your head off!" Of course not, because that behavior is accepted in those circumstances. Likewise you have an already existing social dynamic where things that are not normally acceptable ARE in fact acceptable, and you want that to change so that they're not acceptable.
And note that not every fan does that. But the ones that do don't get tossed out by security or sent for sensitivity training.
Yes, there will be women who will take it and stride and just ignore such comments, but that doesn't make it not insulting. Asking others to not make such off-color remarks in public will not ruin the hobby. No one is going to bust your door down and stop you from gaming because of how you speak to your friends about whatever subjects, but stop painting the gaming community as if everybody is you.
I'm not painting the entire gaming community blue. I'm simply pointing out that there is a fair amount of blue paint on the canvas, and in some spots its the dominant color.
I'm cro magnon enough to use that sort of humor, but evolved enough to dial it back when there are women i don't know very well present.
If you just want to blast the geekier gamer geeks as being ignorantbadwrong I can't help you. If you're not meeting them at all, Great! You don't need anything I'm saying here.
If on the other hand you are running into these people and you want to come up with ways for dealing with them you have to know how they think, and I'm trying to open up my skull a bit so you can see what's going on in there (don't mind the bats, cleaning crew hasn't been here in a while)
BNW is describing the general dynamics standard to tech-based gaming groups. Every engineering college or game store near one I have noticed exactly what he is describing from the gaming comunity, as well as from most cons I have been to.Uh... I got into gaming with a group from my programming class. While I have not gamed at a game store or con, I'm pretty sure you could call that group tech-based. It does not fit at all with BNW's description. I really can't speak for all or most tech-based groups, but I've met plenty of other gamers (not of the tech field) since then. Most are rather social and I've only ever met one that fit BNW's description of the typical male gamer. In fact I've met more males that had skewed perceptions of women that didn't play tabletop games (They preferred MMOs and graphics to dice). I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky.
I didn't realize we'd met, Raven...O_o I didn't either...
<Second part is a misquote. Should be Hitdice.>
Every tournament I have been in (CCG or wargame) and every public RPG I have played at a store has had at least one person who has creeped me out on first meeting them. Every game club I have been in has had at least 3. Most of the ones that I had repeated contact with were good guys who just were not good in social situations (2 diagnosed with aspergers). On the other hand, a few of them have been mysogynistic (usually ones in game stores), 1 or 2 downright hostile to women who were in the store. Every female gamer friend I have has experienced hostility in game stores. A number of them boycott some of the local ones because of it.
I had one male friend that I introduced to some female friends. The women later told me he totally creeped them out. I was baffled. When I told him, he was baffled, along with a number of mutual female friends who said he was one of the safest guys they know. The only thing I can think of is that he sometimes looks much older than he is because of his beard and premature balding (he was losing hair sophmore year).
I have had multiple female friends drop out of tech colleges because of the hostile environment. 4-1 ratios can really screw up with gender dynamics, and when some programs (like comp-sci) hit 15+to1 it can get really wierd. Clubs and communities suffer from similar problems.
I do have to agree with thejeff's argument that violence is not something I see in gaming circles. Usually gamers are very passive-agressive in my experience. Many of them retreated to gaming from being bullied, and have different coping mechanisms.
I can definetely see age having a big thing to do with experiences. Just over my college experience (class of 06), I saw a noticable shift. People 2 years older than me had very different dynamics than people 2 years younger. And I see a totally different dynamic with current clubs than when I was a student. Geekdom has become much more mainstream over the last 10 years, and as it does its participants become less outcast on average. I have watched as multiple clubs when from being high concentrations of sketchy outcasts towards more central, mainstream groups, often over the course of just a few years. I notice a much higher percentage of sketchy people who are older than younger.
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BNW
What happens at your table is your business. If your table is not very female friendly, don't invite females. From what I gather, you're responsible enough to not be that way 24-7, anywhere, anytime.
What's not okay is when someone to act that way in public, in a gaming store scaring off all the female customers. Females also play these games. Store owners don't want to lose customers and other more sensible gamers don't want to lose players because someone wants to be an ass. Gaming is not gender specific; your local store might be if you're busy running out all the women.
If you can't see the problem with berating someone in public (whether for their gender, race, weight), I can't help you.
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I'm going to be me. I like me. A bunch of other people like me. Women tend to like me. So, if you don't like something about how I act, that's on you. I've been pretty successful making friends and finding lovers being me. And I'm not a paragon of PC behavior or anything, I just don't give a s~@& what people think.
I don't care for the company of people who get offended easily. I don't care if they like me. So there's no reason for me to change to make myself more accessible to those type of people. They aren't worth my time.
Now, if you are horrible at interpersonal interactions, then maybe you should change. If people don't like you, people you're attracted to don't want to be with you, then maybe you should take a look in the mirror and figure out why. If you care what people think, change.
No one has to like anyone, respect anyone, or any of that. But, if the way you act and relate to others prevents you from achieving your social goals, it's on you to change, not the other person.
BNW
What happens at your table is your business. If your table is not very female friendly, don't invite females. From what I gather, you're responsible enough to not be that way 24-7, anywhere, anytime.
What's not okay is when someone to act that way in public, in a gaming store scaring off all the female customers. Females also play these games. Store owners don't want to lose customers and other more sensible gamers don't want to lose players because someone wants to be an ass. Gaming is not gender specific; your local store might be if you're busy running out all the women.
If you can't see the problem with berating someone in public (whether for their gender, race, weight), I can't help you.
I do know a number of females who boycott a game store near me because they find the employees to be sexist asshats more than the customers. Though, IMO, those guys are just general asshats and they wouldn't like them any more if they were male.
One time a friend of mine called out the guy for stalking customers. Something allong the lines of "we have hundreds of dollars of suff picked out that we are going to buy. Do you really think we are going to steal a few $5 minis?" Sometimes they are just jerks to everyone. Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons is sadly an accurate depiction of some gamers.
Every tournament I have been in (CCG or wargame) and every public RPG I have played at a store has had at least one person who has creeped me out on first meeting them. Every game club I have been in has had at least 3. Most of the ones that I had repeated contact with were good guys who just were not good in social situations (2 diagnosed with aspergers). On the other hand, a few of them have been mysogynistic (usually ones in game stores), 1 or 2 downright hostile to women who were in the store. Every female gamer friend I have has experienced hostility in game stores. A number of them boycott some of the local ones because of it.
I had one male friend that I introduced to some female friends. The women later told me he totally creeped them out. I was baffled. When I told him, he was baffled, along with a number of mutual female friends who said he was one of the safest guys they know. The only thing I can think of is that he sometimes looks much older than he is because of his beard and premature balding (he was losing hair sophmore year).
I have had multiple female friends drop out of tech colleges because of the hostile environment. 4-1 ratios can really screw up with gender dynamics, and when some programs (like comp-sci) hit 15+to1 it can get really wierd. Clubs and communities suffer from similar problems.
I do have to agree with thejeff's argument that violence is not something I see in gaming circles. Usually gamers are very passive-agressive in my experience. Many of them retreated to gaming from being bullied, and have different coping mechanisms.
I can definetely see age having a big thing to do with experiences. Just over my college experience (class of 06), I saw a noticable shift. People 2 years older than me had very different dynamics than people 2 years younger. And I see a totally different dynamic with current clubs than when I was a student. Geekdom has become much more mainstream over the last 10 years, and as it does its participants become less outcast on average. I have watched as multiple clubs when from being high concentrations of sketchy outcasts towards more central, mainstream groups, often over the course of just a few years. I notice a much higher percentage of sketchy people who are older than younger.
I've never played any tournaments, and in fact all the games I have been to have been at private residences. And yeah, I have to agree that there's the definite lack of females in the tech field. (15:1 was my experience as well...) I was fortunate to have friends that weren't trying to pick me up (mostly because they had their own girlfriends) and were actually rather social for the "tech" group, we were all in our 20's. It also helps that I've never been the only girl in the group. As I gamed more I learned about other gamers (who major in art). The demographics I've experienced from tabletop gaming was vastly different from the demographics I've experienced in the tech field...
I've met a lot of guys that have creeped me out in the field, but they were never really into tabletop games, they just played WoW and CoD and preferred isolation with their computers or Consoles.
Maybe it's something more to do with my generation though...
BNW
What happens at your table is your business. If your table is not very female friendly, don't invite females. From what I gather, you're responsible enough to not be that way 24-7, anywhere, anytime.
I've been with the same group, which includes 2 and at times has had 3 females, for 15 years. We know each other very well, so I don't get upset when they make comments about me wearing down the knuckles of my gloves or going to the bronx zoo for an mri, and they don't get upset when someone starts talking about coke and whores, they show up at the door, and I quip "Speaking of which...."
To someone that's not in our group that sort of banter is a huge adjustment, and i think that adjustment would be harder for most girls than most guys.
I had no girls in the group in highschool, none in college one, one girl in the home group in college 2, a girl in the store group in college, One in a different group i joined (where she hated me and i had no idea), and None in a different group that lasted for about 2 years.
Store owners don't want to lose customers and other more sensible gamers don't want to lose players because someone wants to be an ass. Gaming is not gender specific; your local store might be if you're busy running out all the women.
Store owners
1) Aren't always able to recognize the problem any better than their customers are
2) Are probably friends with that guy
3) have three that guys to every girl at least
4) "that guy" tends to be a big customer and loosing one of him would be worse than loosing the girl. There's very little besides an acceptable place to hang out that the geek stores have to offer these days of online orders and digital copies. If the owner cracks down on that guys behavior he might leave.
If you can't see the problem with berating someone in public (whether for their gender, race, weight), I can't help you.
And if you're going to insist that its this simple i can't help you.
You're assuming that
1) They KNOW that they're scaring the girls off and
2) They're doing it on purpose
You can't correct a behavior that someone doesn't recognize is there.
Look, lets assume the worst case scenario here. I am a loud mouthed knuckle dragging cro magnon misogynist. What would I have to complain about? The Geek stores are mine, and so is the group, everything is right with the world...
Does it make ANY sense that I'd be trying to explain what's going on?
I've met a lot of guys that have creeped me out in the field, but they were never really into tabletop games, they just played WoW and CoD and preferred isolation with their computers or Consoles.
I met a bunch of those people who, as they got to college, decided they didn't want to be social loners any more and then found the club for gaming/anime. Most of them are good people, and typical geeks. It takes them some time though to become socially adjusted, and many of them have issues dealing with women. Usually it is not knowing how to express interest in girls or poor coping with past rejection. Their awkwardness makes may girls I know uncomfortable. Freshmen definetely are the worste with it.
I think there are a lot of different behaviors that can make women uncomfortable in this regard though, and the introvert who doesn't know what he is doing is just one of them. Often I see people who are extroverts with dominant personalities and no social skills. These guys tend to be more offensive in my experience, though usually less creepy.
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... bronx zoo for an mri, and they don't get upset when someone starts talking about coke and whores, they show up at the door, and I quip "Speaking of which...."
I hate to break it to you, but being an ass to people who A) don't mind and B) think it's funny means you AREN'T ACTUALLY BEING AN ASS AT ALL. Please turn in your "all gamer men are a##%%~&s" membership card, as you have confessed to acting in an (in context) reasonable manner.
I really don't think that kind of thing is what people are trying to get at. ;) Sorry if you aren't as offensive to us as you thought.
I hate to break it to you, but being an ass to people who A) don't mind and B) think it's funny means you AREN'T ACTUALLY BEING AN ASS AT ALL.... bronx zoo for an mri, and they don't get upset when someone starts talking about coke and whores, they show up at the door, and I quip "Speaking of which...."
Right, but it takes skill and familiarity with the other people involved to draw that line between being an ass and being funny. Its a subjective, complicated balancing act taking into account where you are, who you're with, and what you're doing. If you have a new person who thinks that a comic shop is going to run on the same social paradigms as a book club they're going to be judging the peoples behavior on the wrong standard.
I've misjudged the line before, and there are people with worse social skills than me. I hear some of them are out on good behavior or managed to pick the lock at the zoo.
Please turn in your "all gamer men are a@*+~*#s" membership card, as you have confessed to acting in an (in context) reasonable manner.
Awwww.. i was keeping phone numbers on there... Can I get extra credit by staging a picard vs Kirk debate in the middle of an emergency room?
I really don't think that kind of thing is what people are trying to get at. ;) Sorry if you aren't as offensive to us as you thought.
I'm sure some of it is. I've seen things where the geekier member of the group said something that was supposed to be funny and someone else read waaaay too much into it.
I have played in public settings quite a good number of times. Not too surprisingly, I have seen girls getting upset about things boys say, and leave. However, it hasn't been sexual things. From what I understand, boys need to be relaxing with exclusively other boys to really start with the misogyny. No, what happened was nerd rage debates about medieval armoursmithing and the like. Other than that, I believe boys typically act a bit shy and as courteously as they can when girls are present, otherwise I would have seen a lot more of it than I have. I haven't had people leave my group because of bad manners. What I have seen destroy groups, though, is conflict between two girls. It was pure VtM politics, with showdowns, accusations, compartmentalisation of information, people declaring sides formally and informally, and so on. I am not saying boys don't do that, only that I have just seen girls go at it that way.
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The original article is just ham fisted piffle.
I've seen things where the geekier member of the group said something that was supposed to be funny and someone else read waaaay too much into it.
Well, that's the question, isn't it; Did they read way-with-that-many-a's into it, or were they insulted? People feel insulted by things other people say, and the one who told the joke isn't any more right than the one who felt insulted.
Personally, I find the "I was just joking, lighten up," defense very frustrating, if only because it boils down to people taking cover behind their ignorance/social awkwardness/whatever you want to call it.
I think the guy who wrote the article is the one that's blowing things out of proportion. So there was a guy who was inept with women, and they were right to scold him for it, but that's no reason to assume that it's all "white males" and only white males who offend people. That's an offensive stereotype of its own, and it doesn't make him any better for including himself in it.
I also really hate "White Knights", who think it is their duty to "protect women from the deuchbaggery population that are males". They act like they know women and place them on pedastools to be worshiped. If they ever try to represent a female, she's almost inevitably on the extreme form of chastity or a lesbian, because men are dicks and they know better than to expose themselves to that.
I once had a friend who was/is a white knight. My girlfriend at the time told me, "He's nice, and he's probably safe; but he really creeps me out sometimes." She went on to tell me how he was always asking if she needed help with anything.
I had to be like dude:
1) She's my girlfriend.
2) She's a human f&!$ing being, she does not need to be worshiped, she does not need to be waited on. She can do things on her own, and if she needs help she'll ask for it.
Anyway, that article just comes off as upset white knight blaming the public for the end of his relationship.
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I must admit it's pretty frustrating when I'm helping a guy with something physical (usually setting up furniture for a game or something) and he starts snatching stuff out of my hands without asking me first or shakes the table I'm helping him move until I let it go. But it's also pretty frustrating when someone is being horribly rude and you're the only one who calls him on it...and everyone else at the table avoids your eyes and doesn't call their compatriot on the bad behavior.
At one game a player was frustrated that my monsters were making their saves. I roll the saves out in the open so my players know I'm not screwing them out of their save or suck spells having effect, so it's obvious I'm not messing with him, but after the third successful save he yells "B&!$@!" and another player called him on it.
He overreacted, and he's never talked like that to me before or since. But it would have felt a lot more like everyone was okay with him calling me that if no one else had bothered to say "Not cool, dude."
Well, that's the question, isn't it; Did they read way-with-that-many-a's into it, or were they insulted?I've seen things where the geekier member of the group said something that was supposed to be funny and someone else read waaaay too much into it.
Why an or there? It was both.
The exact comment was about useless bards to a player that had a bard. The geekier of the two, being an optimizer, had a low opinion of bards and was joking about it. The less geeky thought it was a directed personal insult and felt insulted.
People feel insulted by things other people say, and the one who told the joke isn't any more right than the one who felt insulted.
If one person believes that something intended as a joke was in fact intended to hurt then yes, they're objectively wrong about the other persons motivations.
Personally, I find the "I was just joking, lighten up," defense very frustrating, if only because it boils down to people taking cover behind their ignorance/social awkwardness/whatever you want to call it.
Ok, so you want everyone that is socially awkward to stop joking as soon as someone that's socially sensitive joins the group? That's really the only alternative because by definition the socially awkward folks CAN"T get the level of humor right, especially with a new person.
At one game a player was frustrated that my monsters were making their saves. I roll the saves out in the open so my players know I'm not screwing them out of their save or suck spells having effect, so it's obvious I'm not messing with him, but after the third successful save he yells "B@#++!" and another player called him on it.
Would that same player have yelled "Bastard" if you'd been male?
Personally, I find the "I was just joking, lighten up," defense very frustrating, if only because it boils down to people taking cover behind their ignorance/social awkwardness/whatever you want to call it.Ok, so you want everyone that is socially awkward to stop joking as soon as someone that's socially sensitive joins the group? That's really the only alternative because by definition the socially awkward folks CAN"T get the level of humor right, especially with a new person.
I know this one guy who gets really upset whenever someone jokes about anything that might on some level be related to drugs (even things as minor as asking, "What are you, high?" in response to extreme ineptness). I don't think anyone has to stop joking but what you joke about does depend on who you're hanging out with. I have some black friends who will crack black jokes all the time, they do not make those jokes around people who are sensitive about their race.
It's common courtesy to stop offending someone if you've done it by accident. This doesn't mean you have to zip your lips and stick your ass on your hands, but don't keep sprouting the same offensive crap. Some people have a hard time catching the cues, so you let them know. Seriously though, not everyone who makes a slip up has aspergers.
God dude, it's like you're saying it's wrong for someone to be offended that you just insulted the whole demographic they belong to even in jest. This happens between people all the freaking time. It's not like you break friendships over this sort of thing, unless you are actually super sensitive to people being offended. You learn from your mistakes, and you learn boundaries.
It's common courtesy to stop offending someone if you've done it by accident. This doesn't mean you have to zip your lips and stick your ass on your hands, but don't keep sprouting the same offensive crap. Some people have a hard time catching the cues, so you let them know. Seriously though, not everyone who makes a slip up has aspergers.
Therein lies problems one and two.
1) If someone is new to the group you do NOT know what they're going to be very sensitive about.
2) If you have any group of geeks chances are pretty good that any cue less subtle than a newspaper to the head is going to get missed by at least some of them and they're going to keep repeating the comments someone doesn't like. Its possible that the offense is unintentional rather than some deep seeded subconscious Machiavellian attempt to drive women away.
God dude, it's like you're saying it's wrong for someone to be offended that you just insulted the whole demographic they belong to even in jest. This happens between people all the freaking time. It's not like you break friendships over this sort of thing, unless you are actually super sensitive to people being offended. You learn from your mistakes, and you learn boundaries.
Thats an overstatement of anything I've said. The article and some of the people here are taking almost the polar opposite stance: that saying something offensive makes the person ignorantbadwrong and they need to change their behavior to accommodate the new person. What I'm saying is that while the group needs to change some for the new person, the new person also needs to do most of the accommodating to the existing group dynamic. That applies even if the new person is female.
Walking into a new gaming group i really don't expect the group to change much if anything for me. Expecting it may be setting your expectations too high.
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The article and some of the people here are taking almost the polar opposite stance: that saying something offensive makes the person ignorantbadwrong and they need to change their behavior to accommodate the new person.
Well, I can't speak for the rest of the posters here, but the article struck me as, "Here are some attributes of geek culture worth noticing and considering if you haven't already."
As I've said before, if that makes a person defensive, they probably aren't of the right mindset to give it fair consideration.
1) If someone is new to the group you do NOT know what they're going to be very sensitive about.
Yeah, that's why I said ya learn.
2) If you have any group of geeks chances are pretty good that any cue less subtle than a newspaper to the head is going to get missed by at least some of them and they're going to keep repeating the comments someone doesn't like. Its possible that the offense is unintentional rather than some deep seeded subconscious Machiavellian attempt to drive women away.
What kind of friend just stands around while his buddy is unintentionally burns his bridges. And if it's everyone in the group missing and the person being offended never says anything, there's absolute 0 chance to do anything about it.
Also, I think that ignorant geek stereotype is getting kind of old, I've known way more jocks unaware of the cues being thrown at them.
Walking into a new gaming group i really don't expect the group to change much if anything for me. Expecting it may be setting your expectations too high.
I agree that some people need to learn a little bit of tolerance, but I know that I won't play with a group that wants to crack jokes about each the size of each other's penises. I just wouldn't feel comfortable in that sort of environment even if the jokes never even involve me. I'd walk away from that. But I would be pissed if they said that there was something wrong with me because I don't want to deal with that s#~@.
At the same time, I don't mind cutting back on the jabs at druggies, because that's not essential to what I am, my culture, etc.
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Relevant to this conversation.
No, I don't have a newsletter. I keep thinking about blogging, but every time I try to start, I get distrac- oh, shiny thing!
Do people forget Marilyn Monroe was HOT, and a size SIXTEEN???
Ah, nope. But yes, both yesteryear's and today's size sixteen can be hot indeed.
Ah, Ambrosia, you and Snopes just made some poor kid someplace cry. Let an urban legend stand once in a while.
Or, putting it another way ...
On a different note ...
Relevant to this conversation.
Is the statistic that Amber is quoting "that the percentage of female DC comic readers dropped after their 'new 52'" true?
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On a different note ...
Relevant to this conversation.Is the statistic that Amber is quoting "that the percentage of female DC comic readers dropped after their 'new 52'" true?
I honestly don't know if the statistic is true, and I'm unable to find data to either support or refute the claim made. What is true is that DC's female readership is abysmally low.
Numbers aren't the reason why I linked to that comic in this thread, though. The reaction the male character made was the reason I felt the comic was relevant. The idea that the criticisms women bring up regarding comics (and games, and other geekery) are dismissed as being unimportant, sometimes aggressively so. I can understand why someone might initially get defensive of the things they love, but if that person has sat and thought about the issue and still says that women (and those who sympathize with them) need to shut up about them? Those people are part of the problem, quite frankly.
Also: Curvy women are sexy. So are thin women. Just sayin'.
I like women with curves I can lean into.
On a different note ...
Relevant to this conversation.Is the statistic that Amber is quoting "that the percentage of female DC comic readers dropped after their 'new 52'" true?I honestly don't know if the statistic is true, and I'm unable to find data to either support or refute the claim made. What is true is that DC's female readership is abysmally low.
Numbers aren't the reason why I linked to that comic in this thread, though. The reaction the male character made was the reason I felt the comic was relevant. The idea that the criticisms women bring up regarding comics (and games, and other geekery) are dismissed as being unimportant, sometimes aggressively so. I can understand why someone might initially get defensive of the things they love, but if that person has sat and thought about the issue and still says that women (and those who sympathize with them) need to shut up about them? Those people are part of the problem, quite frankly.
Also: Curvy women are sexy. So are thin women. Just sayin'.
The thing is, I'm remembering a time when Swamp Thing, Sandman and Black Orchid were at least chick friendly comics if not like chick comics.
I guess I'm asking, whatever happened to Karen Berger and the Vertigo Line?