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Personally, I prefer my women in art to be both attractive AND somewhat realistic, although I'd be lying if I claimed to dislike "cheesecake."
And ultimately, there isn't anything wrong with cheesecake for any gender. People like looking at attractive members of whatever sex they're attracted to, and most of us also like feeling attractive as well, so we tend to like attractive pictures of examples of our own sex. The problems really come in when there's only ONE example or categorey being shown for a group of people. The occasional cheesecake girl in RPG art is fine (as is the shirtless scene from Thor). The problem arises when almost every picture is of a skinny chick with a little-girl face and enormous, orb-like breasts, wearing clothing obviously designed to showcase her sexuality.
As a woman, I feel bad looking at pictures like that over and over, because it feels like 1) the product isn't aimed at me, 2) the creators obviously have strange ideas of women, and 3) I feel kind of put out about the role I'm clearly supposed to fill in this product. I have to assume most guys don't get too much of a kick out of every girl being a sex-bomb, either.
In regards to the original article, I've actually been exactly when the writer's girlfriend is: Chased out of a comic book shop by neckbeards raging at you. In my case, it was because I dared mention that the latest issues of X-men (back in the 90's) made me a little queazy with all the giant breasts and panty shots and the massively irrational behavior from the female characters. After that, I got out of comics for a good six or seven years.
And continuing the positive examples of what we DO like to see, I have so foundmy Jade Regent character.
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(why am I always at work when the linking starts)
All I know is that while I don't mind Seoni, I'd be irritated if there weren't any Seelahs, Kyras, or Imrijkas present as well. Paizo has a good range going. Do want more badasses like Dragoon lady from Ultimate Combat though...she has the scars I wish my FemShep in Mass Effect had.
@Jess: Your edited version does look better. And honestly, for another angle on the matter, more appealing from a fanservice perspective. Sometimes less is more!
Y'know what's funny Jess, as I remember there was a letter from a guy in a later issue of Dragon (don't have the wherewithal to dig it out and check the number, sorry) saying that he couldn't buy the issue with the greco-roman beefcake on the cover because people would think he was gay. The male readership rallied in defense of Dragon, but no one pointed out that you had a simillar female depiction on the cover 3-6 times a year.
That is still one of my all time favorite illustrations of double standards in our hobby. Well, favorite in that it illustrates it well...it actually makes me kind of sad.
(why am I always at work when the linking starts)
All I know is that while I don't mind Seoni, I'd be irritated if there weren't any Seelahs, Kyras, or Imrijkas present as well. Paizo has a good range going. Do want more badasses like Dragoon lady from Ultimate Combat though...she has the scars I wish my FemShep in Mass Effect had.
@Jess: Your edited version does look better. And honestly, for another angle on the matter, more appealing from a fanservice perspective. Sometimes less is more!
That is still one of my all time favorite illustrations of double standards in our hobby. Well, favorite in that it illustrates it well...it actually makes me kind of sad.Y'know what's funny Jess, as I remember there was a letter from a guy in a later issue of Dragon (don't have the wherewithal to dig it out and check the number, sorry) saying that he couldn't buy the issue with the greco-roman beefcake on the cover because people would think he was gay. The male readership rallied in defense of Dragon, but no one pointed out that you had a simillar female depiction on the cover 3-6 times a year.
Wait. You're a girl? For some reason I thought you were a guy.
The rest I agree with wholeheartedly. I love Dragoon Lady. My favorite piece of artwork in any Paizo publication, however, is the redheaded girl in chainmail on page 99 of Ultimate Magic (the section about Spell Duels). She's very pretty, but isn't skimpy or heavily sexualized at all. I don't mind sexual art, mind you, but I like seeing non-sexualized art as well. I want a balance of sex and not sex when it comes to women in Pathfinder, not all one or all the other. I love her artwork to death a million times over. I will be sadly disappointed if it doesn't become an available avatar on this site.
Personally, I prefer my women in art to be both attractive AND somewhat realistic, although I'd be lying if I claimed to dislike "cheesecake."And ultimately, there isn't anything wrong with cheesecake for any gender. People like looking at attractive members of whatever sex they're attracted to, and most of us also like feeling attractive as well, so we tend to like attractive pictures of examples of our own sex. The problems really come in when there's only ONE example or categorey being shown for a group of people. The occasional cheesecake girl in RPG art is fine (as is the shirtless scene from Thor). The problem arises when almost every picture is of a skinny chick with a little-girl face and enormous, orb-like breasts, wearing clothing obviously designed to showcase her sexuality.
As a woman, I feel bad looking at pictures like that over and over, because it feels like 1) the product isn't aimed at me, 2) the creators obviously have strange ideas of women, and 3) I feel kind of put out about the role I'm clearly supposed to fill in this product. I have to assume most guys don't get too much of a kick out of every girl being a sex-bomb, either.
In regards to the original article, I've actually been exactly when the writer's girlfriend is: Chased out of a comic book shop by neckbeards raging at you. In my case, it was because I dared mention that the latest issues of X-men (back in the 90's) made me a little queazy with all the giant breasts and panty shots and the massively irrational behavior from the female characters. After that, I got out of comics for a good six or seven years.
And continuing the positive examples of what we DO like to see, I have so foundmy Jade Regent character.
Crystal, have you ever read a (sadly out of print) book called Picnic on Paradise? You will love it (I'm a dude, whatever)...
That is still one of my all time favorite illustrations of double standards in our hobby. Well, favorite in that it illustrates it well...it actually makes me kind of sad.Y'know what's funny Jess, as I remember there was a letter from a guy in a later issue of Dragon (don't have the wherewithal to dig it out and check the number, sorry) saying that he couldn't buy the issue with the greco-roman beefcake on the cover because people would think he was gay. The male readership rallied in defense of Dragon, but no one pointed out that you had a simillar female depiction on the cover 3-6 times a year.
I also find it interesting that if a woman were to read one of the magazines with sexed-up images of women on the cover, I don't think people would try to draw conclusions about her sexual preferences based on it.
One issue I have with Paizo's art is that the women all seem to have large breasts. I think the image of Merisiel is the sole exception to this. Breasts should be proportional to the shape of the rest of the body, for the most part. Poor Alahazra's cursed with back problems, in addition to clouded vision! I think Paizo's art is good in comparison, but it seems like the breasts are drawn with sex appeal in mind. Larger breasts can be uncomfortable when running around doing the awesome stuff adventurers do, and if they're strapped down, they're not going to look as big as they do in the artwork.
Wait. You're a girl? For some reason I thought you were a guy.Nah, imma dude.
I wish I knew what it was that keeps getting me mistaken for female. For srs.
I think it happens because you're awesome: at least, that's why it happens to me. Look, whatever...
When it comes to female art, I want to see more stuff like this. I really, really like this style.
For my part, I'm sorry I let him push me to throw down. Sorry everyone! Back to discussion.
For my part, I'm sorry I let him push me to throw down. Sorry everyone! Back to discussion.
Don't sweat it. Happens to everyone sometimes.
I think she is my favorite: Crane Samurai
Crane, have you read the Morgaine Cycle by C.J.Cherryh? It's awesome. :)
I think she is my favorite: Crane Samurai
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I think she is my favorite: Crane SamuraiAll the awesome, no skimpy. Very nice.
Those pictures are awesome.
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Need to link a ton of Mark Smylie's Artesia armor art when homeget. Followers of Kobold Quarterly have been seeing his art show up quite a bit there recently.
I think it happens because you're awesome: at least, that's why it happens to me. Look, whatever...Wait. You're a girl? For some reason I thought you were a guy.Nah, imma dude.
I wish I knew what it was that keeps getting me mistaken for female. For srs.
I prefer to think it's because I have nice hips.
Those pictures are awesome.I think she is my favorite: Crane SamuraiAll the awesome, no skimpy. Very nice.
The one I posted inspired this character.
Interesting thoughts all round, but especially on jess doors and crystal fraisers part. Great artwork jess, and although I would be lying if I said I did not prefer the original, I could live with the edit.Not only do I prefer the update, but I have a problem even with the editted version. I find the edited one more attractive. But really, the edited part isn't the offensive part of the image. That sorceress could be wearing the orriginal clothes (open top & bear midrift and all), in the same location, and be unoffensive. The problem is that she is in a ridiculous pose.
She is posed in such a way to emphisize 3 things, bust, ass, and thighs. Look at the way the torso is twisted to get a front view, but then twisted to give a side view of her ass. Her front thigh is then bent, while the back one is in this wierd, twisted position that is totally unrealistic. This isn't an action pose, its an exploitation pose. And it makes her less attactive to me.
different strokes for different folks, I guess. I didn't didn't see it that way. We may be getting into a vinegar tasting contest here however.
Yeah, Smylie is actually one of those guys who totally knows what he's drawing; here's hoping he finishes the series :)
I would take cheesecake with every meal, if I could, but what I find interesting is the dearth of non-idealized male adventurers that everyone seems to be ignoring. Seriously, not a paunch among them -even the wizards are ripped nowadays. It's about here that the argument against cheesecake (not that you are making one, mind) falls apart for me -aren't we all 'caking it up at this point, regardless of gender? I think I saw one character that wasn't in perfect shape in dragon back in the day that wasn't in perfect shape/idealized and there were letters praising this in the following issue, but nothing beyond that.
Personally, I prefer my women in art to be both attractive AND somewhat realistic, although I'd be lying if I claimed to dislike "cheesecake."And ultimately, there isn't anything wrong with cheesecake for any gender. People like looking at attractive members of whatever sex they're attracted to, and most of us also like feeling attractive as well, so we tend to like attractive pictures of examples of our own sex. The problems really come in when there's only ONE example or categorey being shown for a group of people. The occasional cheesecake girl in RPG art is fine (as is the shirtless scene from Thor). The problem arises when almost every picture is of a skinny chick with a little-girl face and enormous, orb-like breasts, wearing clothing obviously designed to showcase her sexuality.
As a woman, I feel bad looking at pictures like that over and over, because it feels like 1) the product isn't aimed at me, 2) the creators obviously have strange ideas of women, and 3) I feel kind of put out about the role I'm clearly supposed to fill in this product. I have to assume most guys don't get too much of a kick out of every girl being a sex-bomb, either.
In regards to the original article, I've actually been exactly when the writer's girlfriend is: Chased out of a comic book shop by neckbeards raging at you. In my case, it was because I dared mention that the latest issues of X-men (back in the 90's) made me a little queazy with all the giant breasts and panty shots and the massively irrational behavior from the female characters. After that, I got out of comics for a good six or seven years.
And continuing the positive examples of what we DO like to see, I have so foundmy Jade Regent character.
Freehold, I might be misunderstanding your point, but I would love to see India Jones with a pot belly trying to squeeze his way though a tight cavern or something.
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Well... that was derailing.
I'm almost sorry I seemed to have woken up the thread and made the GRAR-fest possible. But I'm loving the art being posted.
There's so much that goes into whether I like or dislike a picture of a female character. Pose, expression, clothing, the situation the character appears to be in...all of these contribute to whether or not I'm happy to be looking at a particular piece of art.
And I really appreciate that Paizo obviously cares about and thinks about their art. I don't have to like every piece. it's impossible to like every piece - I'm not the entire audience, after all! But I think there's an obvious effort for real variety and an awareness on the part of Paizo staff that there are multiple categories that could use variety in character representations. And that is awesome.
and when I start to get hyper analytical and too critical, I just have to remind myself of the poor quality of my own artwork, and the fact that I throw away 90% of what I try to draw...so even the stuff I don't like is the cream of the crop of what I can produce. :P
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I have a question.... how much of the objection to more or less clothing is a cultural bias rather then a gender bias.
From the outside looking in the US has a very strange set of values - weapons, gun-play, violence, idealising serial killers (Dexter) is a good thing... Genitalia is evil... show a bit of nipple and you are ostracised.
In Australia there are fewer (Southern Europe probably having even less) hang ups about clothing, topless is acceptable on most of beaches...boobs are boobs they are there... you get told as a young lad not to leer its impolite. Australian women are far from restrained when commenting on or appreciating attractive males..
Australia was the second country in the world to grant universal suffrage and New Zealand.
Many prominent feminists Germaine Greer and Helen Readdy to name but a few are Australian.
Our Queen, her Representative the Governor General, the Prime-minister (= to your president), and half of the state premiers (= to your governors) are female.
Australian women are allowed to serve on the front-line if they meet the fitness requirements.
In regards to people wearing clothing that is not suited to your situation - I see it all the time... Euro Backpackers - without shirts or in bikini tops and cut off shorts, when its hot and sunny - not because they are showing too much but because of the strength of the Australian sun. They are going to be burnt to the point of blistering after less than an hour. In the afternoon you see them glowing bright red like fresh cooked lobsters.
People go on expeditions poorly prepared and with totally illogical dress and equipment all the time... Scott, Burke and Wills, the Bedaux Expedition.
On the whole though I agree with the sentiment that professional adventurers would wear the best and most practical gear that they could afford.
It would make sense to use context as the guide for illustrating rpgs...
If you are at a ball or having guests around for tea when you are attacked by assassins - then I can see illustrating people fighting in slinky ball-gowns as within context...
If your tribe or clan wears little to no clothing in the hottest months of the year - see most native peoples in tropical regions...
If its a cultural thing to paint your self blue and fight nude - see the Picts or strip to the waste and cut yourself - Celtic fighting women...
then that is all well and fine and within context.
It is also hard to define good context for the display cleavage in medieval/renaissance societies (as D&D/Pathfinder are "set" in this time period). - as at various times throughout western Europe it was fashionable for women to go topless.
The below is cut and paste from wikipedia
In many European societies between the Renaissance and the 19th century, exposed breasts were more acceptable than they are today, with a woman's bared legs, ankles or shoulders being considered to be more risqué than her exposed breasts.As a result of the Renaissance, many artists were strongly influenced by classical Greek styles and culture, and images of nude and semi-nude subjects in many forms proliferated in art, sculpture and architecture of the period. In aristocratic and upper-class circles the display of breasts also invoked associations with classical Greek nude sculptures and art and was at times regarded as a status symbol, as a sign of beauty, wealth or social position. To maintain youthful-looking bosoms women could employ wet nurses to breastfeed their children.
Breast-baring female fashions have been traced to 15th-century courtesan Agnès Sorel, mistress to Charles VII of France, whose gowns in the French court sometimes exposed one or both of her breasts. (Jean Fouquet's portrayal of the Virgin Mary with her left breast uncovered is believed to have taken Sorel as a model.) Aristocratic women sought to immortalise their breasts in paint, as in the case of Simonetta Vespucci, whose portrait with exposed breasts was painted by Piero di Cosimo in c.1480. During the 16th century, women's fashions displaying their breasts were common in society, from Queens to common prostitutes, and emulated by all classes.
Similar fashions became popular in England during the 17th century when they were worn by Queen Mary II and by Henrietta Maria, wife of Charles I of England, for whom architect Inigo Jones designed a masque costume that fully revealed both of her breasts.
From the mid-19th century onward, however, social attitudes shifted to require women's breasts to be covered in public, especially in the United States. This attitude has been reflected to a more limited degree in the arts. In the 1930s, the Hays Code brought an end to nudity in all its forms, including toplessness, in Hollywood films. Although a degree of liberalization took place in the later 20th century, contemporary Western societies still generally view toplessness unfavourably.
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A quick PS - (As my mother if she read this would like me to point out (as she is a former radical feminist))....
Australia is not a feminist utopia and there are many battles for equality to be fought especially around wage parity and work conditions/flexibility.
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First: Boobs don't work that way. (Link contains some images that might not be safe for work.)
When it comes to the way women are depicted in comic book art, video games, anime and so on, the problem isn't just that it's objectifying, but that it's more unrealistic than a porn magazine after Photoshopping. Boobs don't work that way. Spines don't work that way. Butts don't work that way. The images are designed solely to sexualize the woman being depicted, realism be damned. I'm astonished that some people don't seem to find that problematic.
Well, I must say that I do not find that problematic (usually) because I see the images merely as fictional characters, and not as representations of real persons.
And if such representations have such a huge influence on how people relate to real life, then I believe that young male geeks wil be forever traumatized by realizing that they are in no way on par with the over-muscular male characters featured in comic book art.
BTW, female characters are not the only victims of unrealism in comic book art. Male characters also tend to have more muscles than real human beings.
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Maybe I'm just the weird one here, but I always saw the beefcake of overly muscular men always more aimed at men.
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Maybe I'm just the weird one here, but I always saw the beefcake of overly muscular men always more aimed at men.
Been reading the original REH Conan stuff and I'm surprised by just how homoerotic the depictions of men are. Certainly he spends much more time describing the perfection and appeal of the male form than he does the female (though there's plenty of that too). I know it was the 30s and that was probably not how it was intended to be taken, but Conan is pretty bisexual if you take his behavior as the only metric; he's always hanging around with some new dude who is described as appealing in a similar way.
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Anyone ever read the Neveryone books by Samuel R. Delany? Full on, asking and telling homoerotic sword and sorcery. Everyone was talking about how out there it was at the time of publication and Delany's reaction was basically, "Have any of you read Conan?"
Conan on the DL!
TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
No, seriously. Downton Abbey is like the Gary Teter of Masterpiece Theatre.
No, seriously. Downton Abbey is like the Gary Teter of Masterpiece Theatre.TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
No kidding man, where I live I can get Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts PBS channels; I have been recording Downton Abbey, but there's no real point as it's broadcasted four nights a week.
TOTALLY KICKS ASS.
That looks kinda cool.
The oldest daughter of the family in Downton Abbey is Death's Daughter from one of the Discworld shows. But without the silly wig.
They made a show of Diskworld?
Anybody seen Anger Management?