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I was mucking about and whipped up a couple of ninja builds. The first one inspired by a picture I saw online. It is a ninja w/ a dip into barbarian. Uses a reach weapon and focuses on two handed power attacks getting in sneak attack whenever possible via Vanishing Trick or Flanking.
Ninja Girl
CN Human
Bbn1/Nin 4
1st: Barbarian; Traits (Reactionary, Viking Blood), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Rage (6 Rnds/Day), Fast Movement
2nd: Ninja; Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd: Ninja; Extra Ki, Ki Pool (5 Points), Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick)
4th: Ninja; +1 Str, No Trace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
5th: Ninja; Extra Rage, Ninja Trick (Combat Trick (Dodge)), Ki Pool (6 points), Rage (8 Rnds/Day)
Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 7
Cha: 14
Init:+4 (+2 Dex, +2 Trait) Speed: 40 ft.
HP: 46 (1d12+4d8+14) AC: 21 (+5 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 Shield, +1 NA, +1 Deflection)
Fort: +5 (+3 base, +2 Con, +1) Ref: +6 (+4 base, +2 Dex, +1) Will: +0 (+1 base, -2 Wis, +1)
BAB: +4 CMB: +9 (+4 BAB, +5 Str) CMD: 17 (+5 Str, +2 Dex)
Skills: 26 points Acrobatics +9 (4 ranks, 2 dex, 3 class), Appraise, Bluff +9 (4 ranks, 2 Cha, 3 Class), Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device +9 (4 ranks, 2 Dex, 3 Class), Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate +10 (4 ranks, 2 Cha, 3 class, 1 Trait), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility), Linguistics, Perception +6 (5 Ranks, -2 Wis, 3 Class), Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth +10 (5 Ranks, 2 Dex, 3 Class), Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device
Attack w/ PA:
Guisarme +9 (2d4+13 x3)
W/ Rage and Sneak
Guisarme +11 (2d4+16+2d6 x3)
[.95(28)+.95*.05(56)]
[26.6+2.66]= 29.26 DPR (Sneak and Rage)
Gear: +1 Chain (~1200), Ring of Prot +1 (2,000), Amulet of Nat +1 (2000), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
she could realistically also have a belt of str by this point
The second build was inspired by an episode of Andromeda that I was watching last night where Trans Gemini whipped out two guns from nowhere and threatened to kill one of her long time friends, then pointed out she could get away with it because she's cute. So Benny the Halfling is a freed slave who has learned the skills of a ninja. He's extremely cute and innocent until you feel his scimitar opening your femoral artery. Build is focused on Dervish Dance feat and high dex.
Benny
N Halfling
Nin 5
1st: Ninja; Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Weapon Finesse, Traits (Successful Shirker, Blade of the Society)
2nd: Ninja; Ki Pool (3 Points), Trick (Vanishing Trick)
3rd: Ninja; No Trace +1, Sneak Attack 2d6, Dervish Dance
4th: Ninja; Trick (Shadow Clones), Uncanny Dodge, Ki Pool (4 Points), +1 Dex
5th: Ninja; Sneak Attack 3d6, Extra Ki Pool, Ki Pool (6 points)
Str: 8
Dex: 22
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Init:+6 (+6 Dex) Speed: 20 ft
HP: 43 (5d8+15) AC: 22 (+3 Armor, +6 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Deflection, +1 NA)
Fort: +4 (+1 base, +2 Con, +1 Race) Ref: +11 (+4 base, +6 Dex, +1 Race) Will: +3 (+1 base, +1 Wis, +1 Race) +2 Vs Fear
BAB: +3 CMB: +2 (+3 BAB, -1 Str, -1 Size) CMD: 14 (-1 Str, +6 Dex, -1 Size)
Skills: Acrobatics (+2 Race), Bluff (+3 Trait vs Lawful Authority), Climb (+2 Race), Diplomacy (+3 Trait vs Lawful Authority), Perception (+2 Race), Stealth (+4 Size, +1 Trait)
Attack:
Scimitar +11 (1d4+6 18-20x2)
W/ Sneak
Scimitar +11 (1d4+6+3d6 18-20x2)
[.8(19)+.8*.15(8.5)]
15.2+1.02= 16.22 DPR w/ Sneak
Gear: Boots of Dex +2 (4000), +1 leather armor (1160), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Amulet of Nat +1 (2000), +1 Scimitar (2315)
So my question is, which one would people rather play? Ninja Girl has much lower defenses but almost double damage output in optimal situations. Benny is going to be better skill wise, and is more defensively focused while not completely abandoning damage. I guess we'll assume you're playing either PFS or one of the other Modules using PFS rules. Discuss please!
I'm not sure if there's an official ruling on it or not, but in the absence of one saying you can, if I were GM I'd have to rule that sneak attacking falls under an "ability that requires patience or concentration".
So you couldn't do it, or any of the ninja tricks, while raging.
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Well if a rogue fighting an armored warrior while using flimsy swishy poke weapons virtually inscribed with "sunder me" and wearing little more than a reinforced set of clothes ISN'T using concentration to avoid getting smeared, let alone target the weak points of the armor yet STILL hitting vitals therin.. then noone is.
But, yeah, question of being allowed to sneak attack while raging is going to be answered differently at different tables. Keep that in mind going in if wanting to optimize a build in such ways.
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I'm not sure if there's an official ruling on it or not, but in the absence of one saying you can, if I were GM I'd have to rule that sneak attacking falls under an "ability that requires patience or concentration".
So you couldn't do it, or any of the ninja tricks, while raging.
I am so glad you are not my GM. My halfling Barogue would be very sad.....its the only way he can stay competitive :(
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I'm not sure if there's an official ruling on it or not, but in the absence of one saying you can, if I were GM I'd have to rule that sneak attacking falls under an "ability that requires patience or concentration".
So you couldn't do it, or any of the ninja tricks, while raging.
I guess that would be your call as DM, but might as well make a house rule that says no multiclassing Barbarian with Rogue/Ninja. To me sneak attacking is more about knowing where to strike through long training. That's not something you're going to need to concentrate on very hard. Also if we took a more literal interpretation of the word concentrate it would only apply to spells or other things that might require you to make a concentration check. If there is an offical ruling I'd like to see it. Either way it would only make a couple of points difference in the end. If the DM were going to rule that way she would take fighter instead and get another feat out of the deal.
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With only 1 level in barbarian, you can only rage a portion of the times you'll be fighting each day anyway. You have your rogue/ninja tricks for all the times you're NOT raging.
And granted, while sneak attack may fall on the 'let it happen while raging' view more often than not, some of the other ninja abilities... particularly ones involving mysiticism/magic or ambush/stealth will fall more into the 'nope' side, if they're even debated at all.
ITT, people adding conditions to sneak attack and other class abilities that do not exist.
Two levels of monk or fighter suit the ninja much better.
Monk gives back evasion and high saves, if you can afford putting points in WIS after CHA and INT you can also save armor and take monk robes and snakeskin tunic, bracers of armor, ring of protection, belt of the snake king, amulett of natural armor to get a real high AC.
Maneuver master or flowing monk are real nice archetypes, also the bonus feats are welcome.
Fighter gives better Fort save and higher BAB at the beginning.
Also the lore warden archetype gives you combat expertise without 13 INT.
Very good for combat maneuvers and has two bonus feats.
Don´t worry about damage, that comes from sneak attack.
If you group fight, take combat expertise and gang up, perfect for ninjas and rogues to deal sneak attack.
You can for example push STR and CHA, then take power attack and a reach weapon to attack with gang up.
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I'm not sure if there's an official ruling on it or not, but in the absence of one saying you can, if I were GM I'd have to rule that sneak attacking falls under an "ability that requires patience or concentration".
So you couldn't do it, or any of the ninja tricks, while raging.
Because the rogue isn't bad enough, let's make some house rules!
Don´t worry about damage, that comes from sneak attack.
If you group fight, take combat expertise and gang up, perfect for ninjas and rogues to deal sneak attack.
Sneak attack is not high damage. Certainly not high enough to make up for the BAB hit from multiclassing monk/ninja. Fighter/ninja will be better, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with barbarian/ninja.
I fully endorse reach weapon sneak as well. Anything to make it easier to do is a good thing. That said, your stats are a little... eh. I would never dump wisdom that far down. Barbarians and ninjas both have a poor will save, so dumping it to 7 means a -2 to start. I would cut strength to 18 and bump up that wisdom to at least 10. The intellect is basically fine because of how many skill points you'll have, although you may feel more stunted than the typical ninja.
If your focusing on one attack each round then yeah your gonna fall behing the guy who can go invisible and make full attacks and can also make sneak attacks after moving 10 feet.
Ninja has the only class features scout looks at which are Uncanny dodge and Imp uncanny dodge.
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The Ninja by RAW can take the scout archetype. It is an alternate rogue class and it has the prerequisite abilities to give up.
Are you really arguing still that the rogue has more combat utility than the ninja? The ninja who can turn invisible as a swift action, who can throw bombs that damage or cause smoke? The ninja who can get an extra attack during a full attack over the rogue?
DPR the ninja wins; in utility the ninja wins. The rake is not the only way to intimidate on an attack, nor is it even the best. And sneak attack is not good damage, except in the most generous of circumstances.
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You're wrong, but okay. We're off-topic.
Go with the strength ninja, the barbarian dip is good but you could use two levels for a rage power and extra rounds of rage. Don't dump your wisdom so low, and consider Iron Will if you've got a spare feat. Power attack is first priority, and vanishing trick is your first ninja trick.
Alternate Classes
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
And once again the ninja can use anything outside of the differences in class so the ninja can now have his extra move as well.
Also how often can you count on having access to the free move magic in one day.
Level 2 caster ability so potions are good for 3 rnds at a time with a cost of 300gp.
Scout’s Charge (Ex)
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Also rereading scout your only getting one attack since charge limits you to one attack from the charge and skirmisher requires you to make and attack action not an attack to funtion which are different.
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Ugh, I said I wouldn't acknowledge you and then I fail my will save.
Doesn't require a sneak attack to use, doesn't require moving or flanking, just requires a power attack, which if you were going for damage, you were doing anyway.
Now please take it to another thread. Post your DPR if you like. You might troll some more people.
I'm not sure if there's an official ruling on it or not, but in the absence of one saying you can, if I were GM I'd have to rule that sneak attacking falls under an "ability that requires patience or concentration".
So you couldn't do it, or any of the ninja tricks, while raging.
I have heard of dms having a similar opinion, including one which disallowed a ninja-barb when he was at level 7. He insisted that no, one is loud, one is quiet, the mix doesn't work. He had obviously read very little on Apaches, other native american tribes, wako pirates, or other wild barbarian groups that loved their fighting, their use of war cry, meaty effective weapons, but also had a respect for stealth, and used it to their advantage.
Concentrating to hit is actually very funny, because real experienced swordsmen actually let go, cut and follow their training. They don't concentrate on hitting a point, if with a blade, they cut through it and out. The person or target is an obstacle they move through, they do not obsess about hitting one area, that is what amateurs do. If they start with a crucial sensitive point, well that is truly unfortunate.
I allow sneak with two handed weapons, especially polearms, but am tempted to disallow it with greatswords, if it is abused. So far, it hasn't been. Also check up Talhoffer and bastard sword combat for some real precise moves with a two hander. Finesse, precision strikes, etc. In one game, the party ninja loves his falchion. It worked, it made sense, he described it well. A lot of attacks to the arse, the kidneys, the back of the head.
24,000G would be the cheapest and your GM has a right to tell you its gonna be more as thats a pretty powerful ability to have on any character.
Had one ninja of my own, who liked the duom, the falchion, the bow, and he took one level of ranger, favoured enemy spellcasters because they were the evil di**s of the setting.
Seen a bit of the paizo ninja, nope. Prefer the 3.5 version.
@Talonhawke:
You still aren't getting it. An attack action is whenever you make an attack, so if I were to make a full attack after moving, all of my attacks would be 'attack actions.'
Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.
Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]
This should help you understand that there is a difference.
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Don't forget that if you're going the dual-wield route you need two enchanted weapons.
Really the two-handed strength-based ninja pulls out the consistent high damage. The weapon finesse dexterity two weapon fighting stars aligning one? Eh.
Actually, I'm still gonna say 'sneak attack, eh.'
The ninja is fun because of vanishing trick, because of mirror image, because of the sweet acrobatics you can do. Sneak attack is awful compared with any of the other damage mechanics in the game, but at least the ninja can turn invisible to do it reliably.
Then you have the little thing that says
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
And my cost was based of you getting it at priced from a buddy if not is 48000
An attack action is differnet than making an attack. Vital strike is an attack action so is what is called out in scout.
Yes you can make many attacks in a turn especially if he has a reach weapon and combat reflexes.
Look up some of the threads on the two terms you will see the difference.
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So you'll get that ring by... level 12 maybe? Woop. For the last 2 levels the ninja has been able to make himself subject to greater invisibility.
Also, I'm not sure the accelerate ability is as good as you think it is.
Full-Round Actions
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
There isn't an exception listed for if there are multiple move actions allowed, and the accelerate word doesn't list the ability to full attack after a move action, so you cannot. What that word allows you to do is move twice, or to perform multiple move actions per round, such as picking things up, moving around a flaming sphere, reloading a crossbow, and moving. While the extra move action says it can come before or after another action, the Full-Round Action's text is explicit in not being combined with move actions.
While the spell would would work Mergy the class ability states
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed.
And thats differnent than simply making an attack.
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No Talonhawke, I disagree. If Accelerate works the way you say it does, than the build works as a move-then-full-attack with Scout ability.
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round.
If that option is available, then I don't see how a full attack is not also an attack action.
EDIT: But the ninja has still been attacking under greater invisibility since level 10, and unless your DM lets you blow all your wealth on one item, the earliest you would feasibly get that ring is level 12. Also the ninja could get it too and STILL outdamage the rogue. While invisible.
The fact that you can cancel a full attack is diffent than using an attack action during one. Full attack is its own action which can be canceled to take a move action. Its not an attack action than you then give up your move to get more swings.
I'll agree that makes some sense and that its not gonna overpower anything if the rogue/ninja can make the extra non-sneak attacks.
Edit: Heck even if they were sneak attacks its only gonna be a small boost overall. Especially if everyone starts getting those rings and doing the Move+Full attack thing.