Does a cavalier receive benefits from his own Banner?

[Cav5150]

Banner (Ex)

At 5th level, a cavalier’s banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function.

I thought I read someplace that anything that affects an ally will also affect the cavalier.

Will a 5th level cavalier who charges with his lance (which is adorned with a banner) receive the +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge?

[Cheapy]

Yes. You are your own ally.

[donato]

Per the FAQ:

Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

Now, by RAW of that, yes, you would get the bonus. However, as a GM and with RAI, I would say no.

It's possible, but ask your GM for a final ruling.

[Cheapy]

I see absolutely no reason to assume the intention does not include you. Where are you seeing that?

[donato]

Cheapy wrote:

I see absolutely no reason to assume the intention does not include you. Where are you seeing that?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible.

It's just a personal thing really. I feel it silly to get a benefit from something that I believe is intended to inspire everyone else around you. Mind you, I still agree he could receive the bonus, but at my table he would not.

[BigNorseWolf]

Yes. You are your own ally.

You are also your own grandpa.

[BYC]

The only reason I can think of is that the wording (as usual) within the various cavalier abilities uses "your allies (this includes you)" very often. We can't be sure if Paizo put that as reminder text, or that they are implying normally your allies doesn't count as you.

Because this is Paizo and RPGs in general, I have no idea who or what is right.

From which FAQ is the question "Do you count as your own ally?" from? I'd like to read that fully.

When I play my cavalier, I never count myself as an ally, so I want to get clarification as well.

[donato]

The FAQ is here.

[Cheapy]

And this makes perfect sense.

What doesn't make sense is that somehow everyone around him is less of a coward due to this ability, but the cavalier is not less of a coward.

That clause is there for the Gang Up feat. Not for this ability. If you wish to not allow it to work, go ahead. But you are going against RAW and RAI.

[ShadowcatX]

RAI: I would say yes. Standard bearers traditionally are brave souls who lead charges to inspire their allies, I would say they should definitely get it.

RAW: I don't see any way people would argue that RAW you shouldn't get the bonus. By RAW, as explained in the FAQ, you do count as your own ally.

[BYC]

Thanks for the link.

Based on what that FAQ says, I would go with what the FAQ says in this case. Your own banner can certainly inspire you.

[Quantum Steve]

donato wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

I see absolutely no reason to assume the intention does not include you. Where are you seeing that?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible.

It's just a personal thing really. I feel it silly to get a benefit from something that I believe is intended to inspire everyone else around you. Mind you, I still agree he could receive the bonus, but at my table he would not.

Do you also not allow Bards to inspire themselves? If not, then I can see why you would rule similarly with Cavaliers.

[donato]

Quantum Steve wrote:

donato wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

I see absolutely no reason to assume the intention does not include you. Where are you seeing that?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible.

It's just a personal thing really. I feel it silly to get a benefit from something that I believe is intended to inspire everyone else around you. Mind you, I still agree he could receive the bonus, but at my table he would not.

Do you also not allow Bards to inspire themselves? If not, then I can see why you would rule similarly with Cavaliers.

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities.

[ShadowcatX]

That specifically shows that a bard counts as his own ally. Heck, that's probably where the rule talked about in the FAQ comes from.

[TarkXT]

donato wrote:

Quantum Steve wrote:

donato wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

I see absolutely no reason to assume the intention does not include you. Where are you seeing that?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible.

It's just a personal thing really. I feel it silly to get a benefit from something that I believe is intended to inspire everyone else around you. Mind you, I still agree he could receive the bonus, but at my table he would not.

Do you also not allow Bards to inspire themselves? If not, then I can see why you would rule similarly with Cavaliers.

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities.

So how would you justify this to one of your players?

[Walter Orlin]

Do you count as your own GMac though?