It's all there in the title, fellas. I'm new to being a GM, as I'm new to Pathfinder, as I'm new to tabletop gaming in general. Suffice it to say I have very, very little experience with things thus far and I'm looking for some advice from experienced gms.
So far I have run three things for my group, consisting of five people who show up relatively consistently and two players who always have something come up and are fickle at the best of times.(our previous games consisted solely of Call of Cthulhu) These players are becoming increasingly difficult to manage.
Their main problem stems from the fact that they really, really have no idea how to roleplay. I've asked each player to come up with a name and a short backstory. I've been led to believe this is standard stuff, right? But they seem utterly incapable of it. I spent a good ten minutes trying to get two of the guys to come up with names for their characters. Only two of the players thus far, one being my brother, a fellow writer, have even written down a one sentence motivation for their character. I've really pleaded with them to at least use one of the last vestigial remains of imagination left in their bodies to come up with one, but to no avail. Keep in mind this has gone on for three weeks and I've pretty much gotten nothing. I know there's got to be a way to get them invested in the story, but since we've only just completed two relatively short campaigns thus far, it's kind of difficult.
They're just not motivated, and I feel as if it's totally my fault. I've got one guy who wants to completely forgo the dialogue sections altogether, wanting instead to just get to the fighting all the time. I really don't want to pander to him, but it feels like the lack of proper roleplay (in terms of people talking to the NPCs in character) stems from this desire. The aforementioned two guys are the only guys yet to actually attempt this. The one guy, a relatively shy person all things considered, got into a kind of interesting conversation with the innkeeper totally in character, and I loved him for it. But people were getting antsy during the conversation, and when I asked the dwarf character what his motivation was (in the character of the npc) he got peevish and asked, "do I really have to?"
I've got other woes, but I feel like this wall of text has gone on long enough, and I really don't want to seem like a whiny little puissant. Please, I just need to know if anyone else has gone through the same experience, and if they have any advice for a guy like me.
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I've run games with groups like this.
The approach I developed required me to be more flexible: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The DM fairly arbitrates the rules but does not control what players do. Not all players attending games enjoy the same things. For those that write a backstory and live-in-game roleplay with the NPC's, go ahead and reward for it, but it may be a bit much to demand it. I had one player that always had to play a dwarf named Boris, but that's how he enjoyed the game and I worked around that. Ask what they want out of the game. If some of them hate the idea of talking in character, is it okay to just relay what their characters want to convey to an NPC & then get them to make a skill check? It's not fair to cripple my diplomatic Bard who has massive skill ranks when I can't as easily succeed if limited to how "un-charismatic" I may be.
Maybe ask if they'd mind you giving them names? It's sorta like how in those old Clint Eastwood westerns, you never knew the hero's name; he was just "Stranger".
Maybe you can latch on to the fact that their characters don't use their names, so the people they help, their allies and enemies, start taking to calling them various names, some flattering...others not so much (Chicken Chaser!!!)
Posted in a earlier thread:
OK, guys, I have been DMing since 1974 or so, I have a few suggestions, they apply most to newer DMs.
Puzzles, riddles? Sure, go for it. Let the players have fun trying to figure them out or guess. But do remember that a player that isn’t so hot at this may be playing a Riddlemaster bardic genius. So, after they don’t get it on their own, let them get HINTS by making skill or INT checks.
Loot? Players love loot, but you don’t want to be Monty Haul. New DMs- use the WBL tables, but be a little more generous, remember that you can go one level above without breaking the game. So, with 5th level PC’s they can have up to 16K gps each. Err on the side of being generous, but don’t overdo it. Throw in some cool sounding loot once in a while like a “delicate hand carved ivory statue, worth 120gps”. (in the back of some older sourcebooks they have tables of this stuff) and make up a few fun but mostly useless in combat magic items like a “Toysong bird that sings along with you, adding +1 to Perform checks”. Never hand out a macguffin that they will NEED several games from now without making it real obvious.
Starting stats? Again err on the side of being generous. If the last DM had a 15 pt buy, try a modest increase to a 20 pt buy. Don’t go to “roll 6d6 keep the lowest 4, roll a dozen times, pick the best set”.
Source books- here’s where you should be conservative. Start with the Core & APG only.
DMPC’s- as in a NPC that you run, not the players. DON’T. Yes, some few experienced DMs can pull these off. You’re not experienced. Don’t.
Evil games, evil PCs or CN sociopath PC’s: at some point in time, experienced mature players/DMs will want to give this a try as a change of pace. You’re not experienced. Don’t. Same with PvP. Ask the players to come up with a background which includes why they are together as a team, or suggest a reason.
Pre-gen PC’s. Never. Do use modules, but change things up a bit.
Railroading. Yes, OK, within limits. Make sure you allow the players to “stop the train” to get off and visit a ‘whistle stop” etc. Read “DM of the Rings” Don’t be that DM.
Table time- make sure every PC has a chance to shine at least once a nite.
Splitting the party while adventuring; half the fun for the players, double the work for you. Don’t.
Lastly- have fun.
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I have to disagree wit DrDreth about the NPCs - I've never encountered Players in my years of gaming that were interested in running the NPCs of the game, so don't take that as given.
It is important, however, that you treat the NPCs different from the PC - they are the 'main cast' and coauthors of your game, the NPCs are all other characters. They live, act and sometimes die as you, the coauthors and the dice decide.
As for the backstory - perhaps the don't know ehere to start. This can be a very valuable device for you. Perhaps you know the adventures or at least the locations and some npc that will come. Make a small catalogue of questions, some basic (where were you born, what are your parents, what do you fear etc.) some that help you to connect the pcs to the story or to the locations of the story. Once they answered the questions, weave them, together with the players into a short story that you can connect to, later on.
They're just not motivated, and I feel as if it's totally my fault.
This is obviously the reason for your post. You feel responsible for a group that isn't motivated to roleplay their characters. That's your first, and greatest logical flaw. Contrary to what you may think, your awesomeness at eliciting roleplay dialogue will have very little to do with your group's willingness to do it. I've seen this with more than a few people/groups in the past. Some people really don't like to take on the role of their character. They just like to run them through the challenges.
Is your group as new to table top roleplaying games as you are? If so, that's almost definitely a contributing factor. In my experience newer players are much more into the simulated combat and the puzzles and traps, than they are into the immersive story. It's key to remember that that's okay! There are many different reasons to play Pathfinder and just hacking and slashing your way through combat and rolling skill checks to overcome challenges is one of them. (This is often referred to as roll-playing.)
Now, if that doesn't fit with your particular play style, and you feel you can't adjust, then perhaps you should either look for a different group (if the local talent-pool allows) or let someone else take the helm of this group. (Incidentally, if you do look for a new group, make sure that are clear up front that you want players that are ready for immersive narrative, and ready to fully roleplay their characters.)
That said, there are ways to slowly work a group up to the immersive roleplaying story type over time. The first you know about, back-stories. It's a critical element to fleshing out a character. If a character doesn't have a back-story they are just numbers on a sheet of paper. I don't allow a new character into any of my groups before they have at least a three paragraph back-story/biography. (I also make sure that a player has a name for their character before we even begin the creation process, sometimes that is as simple as firing up a random name generator and picking one they like.)
That does not mean that every player has to come up with a uniquely crafted back-story. This is where I've seen some GMs take a hit. They are asking for people, who may never have aspired to write anything creative, to write something unique and inspiring of story. Back-story, can, and in some cases should, come from easily identifiable characters from stories they already know. Take a look at the boards and you'll see people statting up their favorite characters from literature, movies, and TV. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and as a GM you should encourage it. This is especially true if you really feel back-stories are going to work your group towards being the role-players you want. (Remember though, again, this is something you want. It's imperative that all through the process you remember that your job is to cater to the group, not the other way around. If you feel the group really would like roleplaying and are just lacking the proper tools or confidence then these ideas can help.)
Remember too that in-game rewards for great story elements is always an option. In fact I've found it to sometimes be the most powerful option. In one of my games a player had a great side-story about finding a dragon and becoming a dragon-rider. The story was excellent, and I granted him the level-dip just based off of his narrative. (Incidentally, I don't allow class level dipping of a class that doesn't fit with a character concept without a narrative to explain it, and sometimes side-quests run one-on-one with the player.) Some options here are to give XP for great back-stories, or give magical weapons at startup because a story had a weapon handed down from father to son, etc. (There's actually a Trait for this called Heirloom Weapon.) There's nothing wrong with giving in-game rewards for "out of game" (which is kind of a ridiculous term when we're talking about fleshing out characters) content.
Finally, if all else fails, don't ever be afraid to assign things as needed. Don't be afraid to give your player's characters names, and back-stories that you've devised. Maybe that, in and of itself, will spark the right kind of discussion. If a player doesn't like the name or back-story you give them, it can be a great catalyst to come up with their own.
"What? I don't like the name Snagglepuss! And this back-story is lame!"
"Oh, I'm sorry, if you'd like to come up with your own name and back-story I'd be more than happy for you to use that instead."
To be clear though, assigning terrible names and back-stories is not a good way to endear yourself to the players. If you are going to assign names and back-stories try and cater them to the players. If you give them something they really like it can be a great way to get them involved in that character.
In the end remember that the player's willingness to do anything is not a reflection on you. Whether or not they are having fun is a reflection on you. It is your number one job to make sure everyone at the table is having fun (this does include yourself). If you're fine with a hack 'n slash campaign, and that's what your players want, then hack 'n slash away my friend!
Really, thanks everyone for replying, especially Mendedwall; your response was incredibly helpful.
In my own campaign, I tend to toss a consumable at people who are quick with backstories, descriptions, etc. Really, one or two extra potions doesn't break the game in any way, but it does reward the people who did the work.
The other thing that I've done is provide a questionnaire to the players about their characters and said "If you won't do a backstory, no problem -- fill this out, and I'll fill in the details." -- you still end up "assigning things", like MendedWall says, but at the same time, it's at least based on choices that they made.
MendedWall had some great points. I will touch on and expound on them.
Contrary to what you may think, your awesomeness at eliciting roleplay dialogue will have very little to do with your group's willingness to do it.
Every player is at the table for a different reason. Some like the story, some like the action, some are just there to hang out with their friends. The true art of GMing is juggling the personalities of the people at your table while also playing the game that you want to play.
Most of the times that I am the GM, I sit down with the players away from the rest of the group (or send out an email) and ask them simple questions. "What is your name?" Where are you from?" Why are you adventuring?" "What is your alignment? And why?" That last "and why?" can give more insight into a character than almost any question on the list. I don't let them into the game until I have received answers to these questions.
When I send out a questionnaire instead of sitting down with the players, I've found that the more role-playing minded group tend to come up with interesting ways to answer the questions. Journal entries, hand written letters to home, etc. The less role-playing minded group just answers the questions as briefly as possible.
And this is fine. Don't take it as comment on your GMing style. Everyone is there for something different. The people who want to role-play will role-play. Those who don't will drift off during the role-playing bits. The time to worry comes when players from one camp are making the game not fun for the players of the other camp.
IME, this usually comes when a non-role-player gets bored with the role-playing at the table. S/he looks around with an expression on their face that says, "When do we get to fight something?" Soon, that expression turns to actually saying, "So are we fighting something, yet?" And then jumping into the role-playing that's going on and trying to just get to the point. The point of "when do we fight?"
If you have role-players who understand that sometimes we fight things, and roll-players (gods, I hate that term) that understand that sometimes we talk to things, then you are okay. You should only really worry when one camp is infringing on the gameplay of the other camp.
Unfortunately, the difference in game styles can lead to letting a player go. I tend to go as far as I can with those players, let them know that everyone at the table is trying to do something different, hoping that they understand that, and telling them to just sit back when there is gameplay that doesn't interest them. Sometimes it works. Sometimes you need to cut them out.
Now, if that doesn't fit with your particular play style, and you feel you can't adjust, then perhaps you should either look for a different group (if the local talent-pool allows) or let someone else take the helm of this group.
The biggest thing to keep in mind is that your one true job is to make sure that the other players have fun. If the players want to ignore the dungeon that you've detailed to chase after the king's assassin, you need to run with that. If your political machination storyline goes off the rails when the characters decide to open a magic store in town, you need to run with that. If the players' choices do not contour with a game that you feel comfortable running, it's time to walk away. You can always find new players, and your old players will be much happier playing with a GM who doesn't force them into a story that they are not interested in playing.
Now, you can subtly push people to play the way you want. If someone completes a personal quest and receives an awesome weapon as a reward, everyone else around the table will probably look up and say, "If I complete my personal quest, I might get a sweet reward, too." I find that positive reinforcement works far better than negative reinforcement.
And finally,
In the end remember that the player's willingness to do anything is not a reflection on you. Whether or not they are having fun is a reflection on you. It is your number one job to make sure everyone at the table is having fun (this does include yourself).
There are not enough +1's in the world for this statement.
OT
Something I recommend doing is having a talk as a group about what everyone wants out of the game. The hard part about this is that people don't always have the experience or vocabulary to really describe what it is they want or what they enjoy. That talk may be difficult to pull off for your group though, but keep it in the back of your mind. Remember what works and doesn't work for the group, bring it up later and ask them their opinions on what went right and what went wrong.
Lead by example. Name NPC's, they don't have to be great names or very unique (Stinky Pete is a name that crops up for minor npc's for me), you've probably known a lot of guys named Michael in real life, characters in your stories can have "ordinary" names too. For inspiration on twisting real world names, I recommend looking at the character list for the A Song of Ice and Fire series, most names are tangentally similar to real world names either with an extra letter, a missing letter or swapping a couple letters.
To further the "lead by example" concept, give descriptions to what characters are doing in combat.
Ex 1: The orc is using power attack and cleave.... 12, he misses you.
Ex 2: The orc jumps up taking a wild and crazy swing at both of you in front... his axe glancing off your shield and going high over both of your heads.
Ex 2 draws people into the image of what is happening a lot more than Ex 1. It's the old adage of "show, don't tell". Paint a picture of words, describe the action that is happening instead of rattling off game terms. Some tips for this:
1: don't go overboard, keep it simple and straightforward.
2: pick the obvious choice - being creative doesn't mean finding the description no one else would have thought of, it means coming up with a description at all. Obvious choices are good too because people can understand them quickly and start painting their own mental picture.
3: Toss it back to the players, describe something happens then turn to who ever has the next turn and say "What do you do?"
Like others have said, talk to your group and find out what everyone's expectations are. You should never have to beg or cajole players into doing the kind of things you want, that wont work in the end, and it will just cause resentment. Make your wishes known, and see if you cant come up with a compromise. If you cant, that isnt a reflection on you, just that you and your group have different tastes.
From what you describe you might want to consider some dungeon delving board games instead for this particulary group of people (assuming the problem remains after attempts to fix it). Talisman, Descent, or the DnD board games (Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon, Legend of Drizzt) might be more fun for you guys to play then an actual table top rpg.
From what you describe you might want to consider some dungeon delving board games instead for this particulary group of people (assuming the problem remains after attempts to fix it). Talisman, Descent, or the DnD board games (Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon, Legend of Drizzt) might be more fun for you guys to play then an actual table top rpg.
+1
This is a great suggestion if your players really just like the battles and hazards. Those board games will give them the heroic alter-ego, but not force any undue narrative on them.
I have to disagree wit DrDreth about the NPCs - I've never encountered Players in my years of gaming that were interested in running the NPCs of the game, so don't take that as given.
It is important, however, that you treat the NPCs different from the PC - they are the 'main cast' and coauthors of your game, the NPCs are all other characters. They live, act and sometimes die as you, the coauthors and the dice decide.
The advice is for a newbie DM. There’s a huge debate about DMPCs- the DM who run them, love them- the other not so much. But in any case, a newbie DM should never, ever run a DMPC, that’s for experienced DMs only, if at all.
I've never dmed, but as a player I can say one of the dms that I was with, that caused the most motivation for me was a friend that took the parascite idea, one of you is actually evil, you pick someone you trust not to blow the secret, and the party gets dropped hints that someone in the party is not on their side. Our dialog became a game of wits, cat and mouse, and mind games. It may have ended up with 3 party members dead, but it was exciting.