Ah yes, the complete and utter optimization of the PCs. Mmmmmmmmmm.
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Encourages the rationale that players should be able to power through anything. When this is not evident. Pouty fits are thrown.
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Some players who are not festooned with magic items become really cautious and a little cowardly. They can also display a lack of heroism if said items are threatened, e.g. rust monsters.
At times I think the magic items are one of the bigger problems facing dnd, not just because of the shopping, but because of the reliance and need of some players to have a whole set as quick as possible, and to always have them on.
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I make every item available...from a commission. And some hint that such a weapon/item/etc can BE created. A warrior from some backwater village - level 10 or not - isn't going to know what a +5 Shock Touch Long Sword of Deception is (although to be kind, I have generic names for 'Circles' of enchantment power to help players ICly describe the desired power + of a weapon.
On the other hand, when commissioning a magic item, the players can mix and match powers and abilities (ie, if the book says its a ring and the player wants an amulet, there are very VERY few times I'll say no). This allows them to create items that do exactly what they want, and to some degree stack up powers on items that will continue to exist in the campaign world after the characters are long gone.
I make large cities and 'travelling crafters' prominent enough that the opportunity to commission an item presents itself commonly throughout the campaign (often 3-5 times per level). Shops do exist which carry consumables, also, including most level 1-3 (1-5 in capitals) scrolls.
No player has ever told me that they didn't enjoy my take on crafting after playing in the game, and my treasure chart offers enough money to make up for the 'extra' cost of commissioning (area % price increases/decreases, bad diplo rolls, etc) in addition to things that many characters often never think of -- for example, a staple of large shops catering to adventurers is The Big Roll: a leather belt with three specially designed pouches that allow for the quick dispensing of potions (free action to draw a potion in the pouch) as well as one pouch for antitoxin, one for an alchemical product (fire/acid), and one for holy water. 3 potions of Cure Moderate (CL 5), one fire, and one antitoxin are included. It also includes a standard healer's kit and one Druidic Blessing (a leaf that, when chewed, heals 1d6+1 pts of damage/round for 5 rounds), all for 750gp. Players also are allowed to commission special equipment, much like The Big Roll, if they can provide a 'reasonable' design. But pure 'Magic Shops'? No.
Yes, this brings up player knowledge and character knowledge. I have argued this before, how would players without much in the way of arcana know what to look for specifically, and know how much it costs?
Without the relevant skills, they wouldn't. But of course, after a bit of playing and learning the way of optimisation, the players say their characters look for it.
I don't recall anyone ever taking profession: magic item trader or magic item researcher. The wizard will have some arcana, and some others will have arcana, but do they know all about magic items, how to optimise, how to use each slot and fill it with the most useful item? I doubt it, but if a player thinks so, they can start rolling some arcana checks.
The best way to control magic item availability is to take a realistic view of 'average campaign' demographics.
If you look at the following;
1. Population of a town/city/area
2. % of population of classes capable of casting spells
3. Level range of spellcasters
4. % of those who would take the Craft feats
5. % of those who would 'set up shop'
Once you have done this you find the availability of magical items 'off the rack' is FAR smaller than advertised in the rules - even in a magic-rich game.
Additionally, the availability would be further be reduced as 'pre-ordering' and monopolisation of services by the local nobility etc. would mean less was available.
Yes - this may be too anal an exercise to go through, but once you have done it it becomes clear why making things yourself or plundering dungeons etc. is a quicker route to becoming a Christmas Tree.
The best way to control magic item availability is to take a realistic view of 'average campaign' demographics.
If you look at the following;
1. Population of a town/city/area
2. % of population of classes capable of casting spells
3. Level range of spellcasters
4. % of those who would take the Craft feats
5. % of those who would 'set up shop'Once you have done this you find the availability of magical items 'off the rack' is FAR smaller than advertised in the rules - even in a magic-rich game.
Additionally, the availability would be further be reduced as 'pre-ordering' and monopolisation of services by the local nobility etc. would mean less was available.
Yes - this may be too anal an exercise to go through, but once you have done it it becomes clear why making things yourself or plundering dungeons etc. is a quicker route to becoming a Christmas Tree.
Actually it's completely inaccurate too (especially since it ignores the recommended standards of the CRB):
Especially steps 4 and 5 since anyone can take crafting -- and you forget that crafted magical items tend to last a nigh infinite amount of time.
Considering that 66% of classes including NPC classes can cast spells, and the Paizo given average level ranges from 2~9 easily with 'mover and shakers' going from 9~12 and the really 'high profile' going all the way up to 16th level.
Just counting the mover and shakers and lower you have plenty of room for magical items to be made.
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I used to be a wizard, then I became a crafting machine.
:D
Master Craftsman allows any class (including NPC classes) to craft magic items.
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Some players who are not festooned with magic items become really cautious and a little cowardly. They can also display a lack of heroism if said items are threatened, e.g. rust monsters.
At times I think the magic items are one of the bigger problems facing dnd, not just because of the shopping, but because of the reliance and need of some players to have a whole set as quick as possible, and to always have them on.
I just have to say about this: Discretion is the better part of valor, but someone who's a coward without his toys... is a coward.
@Chobe, excellent points.
In my worlds magic items are treated as commodities. My base assumption is that magical skills are common enough that a group of four adenture-seeking strangers might actually meet in a tavern to form an adventuring group.
That means a small town is likely to have a hedge witch or two, maybe even a small coven, a low-level mage who provides magical services for a fee, a blacksmith who might have learned a few nifty tricks and a local priest who can manage some reasonable healing, curing and minor community service magics.
That means some of those people are making magic suff. Potions especially. Wands, perhaps. +1 armor and swords, probably. Who sells all that stuff? The local magic shop owner. As with all commodities there is a thriving trade between towns. Maybe THIS town doesn't have a wand-crafting mage, but the traveling merchant knows that and trades wands in this town for the special armor and swords the local blacksmith makes.
In the end the local magic shop has a reasonable selection of common utiltiy magic items. Low level stuff like CLW potions are usually in good supply, unless there has been a recent catastrophe or goblin raid which required lots of healing. Unusual potions that the everage villager would have no use for would be more rare. A +1 dagger is no problem, but a +1 scimitar would likely require a special order with the blacksmith.
This all scales up. As the villages grow in size and become cities and then metropoloses, the contents of the magic stores scale with them.
But even so, in a major human city it might be easy to find a +3 longsword, but a +1 gnome hooked hammer might require a special order.
That's how my world handles magic stuff.
Thanks. Much of it is what campaign flavor you want, but to me, not everyone who CAN make items WILL make them "to stock." I don't dispute that the local cleric could take Brew Potion and bang out a few potions of CLW now and again, but you need a lot of customer volume for it to be worthwhile to make items to sit on a shelf. Most of the people in a basic town are going to be basic laborers earning 1 sp a day. Assuming no time off, that's 36.5 gp a year, to cover all living expenses, in many cases for a whole family.
At least for the 'average campaign' -- what you have there is something completely different.
Your scenario laid out is FAR from typical dark ages/middle ages life. Probably works better for post-plague or Reconnaissance economy. One bad miss is the "professional farmer" who has a "stay at home" wife who is free to work for spending money. It's not 1950. Peasant women were out busting it in the fields right along with the men to survive. There's no duplicate income.A lot of these income numbers aren't going to be in cash, either. Unless the magic store takes turnips, you're dancing around the margins of the point that these people are not buying magic items in an appreciable volume.
Agricultural communities became the predominant form of culture thousands of years before the Medieval period. How wealthy those cultures were mostly had to do with how much they could grow, and what raw materials were nearby. When growth seasons we're long and natural resources were abundant, those cultures became wealthy. That was true worldwide. Many pre-historic cultures and even stone age cultures were very wealthy, even by modern standards.
When growing seasons were long and natural resources were abundant real poverty was almost always due to religious or political issues.
Assuming the PF world has decent growing seasons and reasonable natural resources, life would be pretty nice even for peasants, so long as they did not live under the heel of evil masters.
Your scenario laid out is FAR from typical dark ages/middle ages life. Probably works better for post-plague or Reconnaissance economy. One bad miss is the "professional farmer" who has a "stay at home" wife who is free to work for spending money. It's not 1950. Peasant women were out busting it in the fields right along with the men to survive. There's no duplicate income.
A lot of these income numbers aren't going to be in cash, either. Unless the magic store takes turnips, you're dancing around the margins of the point that these people are not buying magic items in an appreciable volume.
I see you didn't read the entire thread -- all your points are already covered and more.
You have missed the assumptions of the game by such a huge margin I question if you actually know them or have read them.
In any case, the point of citing Dark/Medieval is relevance to core fantasy RPG settings, not to assert anything in particular with respect to the history of agriculture. :)
The PF model is one that asserts a reasonably long growing season and abundant natural resources. As Abraham points out, the PF designers actually took the time and effort to quantify that with estimates on wealth and trade. What the came up with is a model where your average farmer has some significant disposable income. Whether that is in the form of actual gold or bartered trades, the end result is the same. It is just easier to use gold.
I'm with Abraham on this one. Even if PF is not historically relevent (and I think it is) it is still defined for the "standard" Pathfinder economy, which Abraham has done a great job modeling.
Honestly even during the 'depths' of the dark ages people tend to over estimate how bad things were. It's because they want to take all the events from the fall of Rome to the discovery of the Americas and shove it together in the same 100 years.
In reality the time period was much longer than that and the major factor in the depopulation and slow down of Europe was the plagues which happened later.
I do not think that there is anything wrong with what you are doing. If they want things they need to use the feats or the skills, buy them, or commission the items to get them. Otherwise, I think that their complaints really are not valid. It would be like a 1st level wizard being upset that they do not get a Staff of the Magi. Part of the fun in the game is seeing what you can get access to as you rise in levels, powers and prestige.
Except people were not that deprived. You are again over stating how bad things were and understating the amount of 'alright' in the middle of that.
The 'magic shops' are already accounted for in the economy that I modeled using the rules as they stand.
Yes, this brings up player knowledge and character knowledge. I have argued this before, how would players without much in the way of arcana know what to look for specifically, and know how much it costs?
Without the relevant skills, they wouldn't. But of course, after a bit of playing and learning the way of optimisation, the players say their characters look for it.
I don't recall anyone ever taking profession: magic item trader or magic item researcher. The wizard will have some arcana, and some others will have arcana, but do they know all about magic items, how to optimise, how to use each slot and fill it with the most useful item? I doubt it, but if a player thinks so, they can start rolling some arcana checks.
Arcana is one of the big ones, obviously. Also religion plays into it for more divine-style magics. As for how much it costs, they can speak to the party arcane (if there is one) and guess a reasonable amount...or simply talk to the person they are asking for the enchantment. Also, common crafters have a list of 'commonly-requested' enchantments available so that no one, regardless of how bad their circumstances, has NO access to anything.
But you're also overlooking seeing odd 'effects' on people's weapons, hearsay from bards (very important), seeing opponents' magics do things they haven't encountered before, and so on. The number of ways to 'discover' a new magic routine are limitless so long as the DM doesn't mind taking the time to make sure there are a few in every game. This also naturally extends into new spell creation.
The one thing that makes the system work really well is a group who take IC/OOC knowledge very seriously, and that works with new players to make sure that they 'get' what the difference is. It's like their new characters, if they don't have the appropriate knowledge, still draw regular weapons against things that are immune to them, if there's a preferred spell that (they don't know) doesn't affect an enemy, the caster still casts it and so on. That's how it beats the 'optimization' metagame angle. If your characters don't know it, and don't have a -reason- to look for it...you're probably not going to find out about it regardless of how the player tries to meta it...and even then, it isn't guaranteed to remain the optimal choice for long.
@Chobe, the PF world violates fundamental laws of physics every day, but you think it should follow your understanding of economics as we "understand" them? Let's not even get into the whole issue of whether our understanding of economic "laws" is even accurate in the first place. I sure don't see much evidence in the current economy that economists know anything about markets...
My worlds have a slightly different approach to the magic economy than the PF rulebooks anyway. The PF rulebooks are focused on the economy of adventuring. In a "real world" of PF style magic the magical items for sale in a typical magic shop would be far more utilitarian and frivolous than what adventurers buy.
What would a typical farmer with a family buy with his disposable income? A cure light wounds potion or a magical toy for his kids, or a magical bauble for his wife. That farmer would likely save up for months to buy his wife that +1 charisma hair ribbon. Or if he needs it, that +1 to germinating seed spreader. Those things exist in my worlds. And they provide income to people who make them.
Also, good to point out that Golarion and the implied setting of the Core Rules are simply not medieval. They're thoroughly anachronistic, like most fantasy settings (including the Hyborean Age and Middle Earth).
The word medieval is meaningless (except as a metaphor) when removed from the context of Earth history (and perhaps only European history).
Master Craftsman allows any class (including NPC classes) to craft magic items.
Yep, this was one of the funniest things I've ever found in pathfinder material. I couldn't be more opposed to it, and it makes so little sense. Enchant the item how? With what spells or enchantments? Bwahaha.
James, yeah yeah, the name thing. 3.5 is the system I most approve of and am loyal too, certainly over pathfinder. As the years go on, I've experimented with a lot of rule changes, consulted other dms and forums and even made some of my own hybrid systems. I especially like my new ruleset for a viking game I ran, based on shogun 2's attack and defence combat with a simple opposed check system and quite a different take on initiative. Lace and steel blended with a customised AD&D thief skills list open for all is also great for a certain type of court intrigue/dastardly agent/Maelstrom-like fighting games. Loyal to 3.5 over pathfinder is more like it, but its an overly long name. Have a good one!
Golarion has gone through a lot of changes, and yeah, is no longer medieval. It is now thoroughly odd fantasy in parts, and I prefer to keep it simple, focus on npcs and situations, stick to some of the older golarion material and try and run good games (in a world without the new spellcasting classes).
Master Craftsman allows any class (including NPC classes) to craft magic items.Yep, this was one of the funniest things I've ever found in pathfinder material. I couldn't be more opposed to it, and it makes so little sense. Enchant the item how? With what spells or enchantments? Bwahaha.
It's to allow for the classic fantasy trope of people who are so good at their craft that their work becomes magical. Or for people who use magical materials and that is how they craft magic items.
Basically, the way that 3E came up with for crafting magical equipment is not the ONLY way that people have had magic items created in fantasy or fiction. Allowing for more flexibility allows people to tell the type of story they want within the rules.
If that isn't your cup of tea or you find it breaks verisimilitude for you and your game, no worries... take it out. On the other hand, if you want a smith who can spend a decade crafting that one amazing sword and it has caused it to take on magical properties, then go for that... both can work together just fine too.
Balance wise there is no issue as it doesn't affect how battles come out or the like. It just gives more options.
But laughing at people who like the option... bad form.
Sean
Well 3-3.5 had experience costs for item crafting, and no magic item crafting from non-spellcasters, to apply it to the letter of the rules. Some really don't like to pay such costs though.
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Trust me the item creation feats will be more trouble than they're worth based on prior forum posts I'd be inclined to bet you'd just end up in an argument or extremely half assed adventuring because they need to spend 18 days making a +3 item 4 times per person for 4 people and you stiffed the caster with 3 s@%$ty feats because the martials sure aren't going to take it but if they don't get the benefit they'll probably pitch a fit over the caster having better stuff than them.It is the higher levels the optimizers are look towards, they are happy now, but the 8,000 gp limit and only a small random change of the other available items being the ones they want they are complaining about issues down the track as you note. For me I would be happy with (a) someone in the group takes up Magic Item creation or (b) they accept that some items will require 'questing' rather than simply buying from the corner shop.
Thanks for the comments.
If it's just a time issue then no problem, most of my group come from 1e and still can't believe you just 'ding' while adventuring!
As for 'feat tax', IF magic items are so important and using the rules not so easy to just go buy, then I see the person doing the creation as having a very central role. Just because you aren't dishing out MOAR DOMARGE in combat doesn't mean you are not useful - at least in my campaigns.
Now if the item creation feats are truly broken - then I have a problem.
S.
No, the rules are fairly good, so long as you remember that:
a) they are guidelines, especially for miscellaneous magic items, and you should always compare the result of creating a new magic items to the existing ones;b) you are way of items using spells with a "personal" range spell as a base for the item;
c) you are ready to say "No!" when the player try to mix spell a from one sourcebook to power b from another and get a item of super uberness.
The rules aren't broken, but you can have players that will try to break them.
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I'm not sure if the OP is simply rolling dice to see if something is available based on the % chance guidelines or not, but if so, that's probably not the way I would do it. What I do with my magic shops is ask myself what is reasonable for a town of that size and if something is not available there, the shop owner can frequently order it from a larger town for a fee. Sometimes the item may not be available at all, but that would rarely be the case for anything that a character truly needed to be competitive.The OP is indeed getting out the d4 and on 1-3 the item asked for by the player under the gp value is available. I even get the player to roll.Well, that's by RAW I suppose but I wouldn't allow capricious dice to determine if a player could get an amulet of natural armor or a Ring of Protection. Just too common, it makes no sense that one wouldn't be available in a reasonably sized town.
I guess I have too many memories of my original version wizards rolling badly on learning a new spell only to NEVER be able to learn that spell just because of a crappy dice roll at the wrong time. I tend to do everything I can to avoid having one bad die roll ruin a player's fun.
In the 1st and 2nd edition you could reroll to learn a spell only if and when your intelligence did increase.
In Pathfinder you can reroll to see if a specific item is available once a week.If a player feel that his fun as been ruined because his character has to wait a week or two to get the exact magic items he want the problem isn't the availability of magic items but the player.
Just too common, it makes no sense that one wouldn't be available in a reasonably sized town.Made sense to Jason and crew at Paizo ;)I bet you'd be surprised if you asked them about such common items. Rules like that are just a way to make a shortcut for people who don't want to take the trouble to figure out what would be in a shop by themselves. I might even use those rules for something unusual. But for +1 arrows?
Puh-leeeze.
[roll-eyes]
You have never been at a store and get the reply: "we are out of stock, return next week?I had that problem with Skyrim last December. To find a copy I had to visit several stores in a 300.000 habitants city in the modern world with mass production. So it isn't a stretch at all to have the same problem in a medieval-renaissance world with hand crafted items.
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n my mind, EVERY church in EVERY city should sell potions and wands, because it is an easy way to:
- Earn a sizable income.
- Battle the enemies of the faith by proxy though supporting heroes.
- Stimulate the economy
- Further the influence of their gods.Every village large enough to have resident wizard will have up to lv3 scrolls (375gp) available. Not ALL spells, but the choice ones. Just like a decent blacksmith will have a Masterwork Greatsword (350gp) I think it only fair that the wizard gets to buy his upgrades alongside the fighter.
Remember that those items have a production cost and no one like to have that "scroll of explosive runes" or "illusionary wall2 gathering dust on one shelf for years for the off chance of selling them one day.
For the RAW of the rules in a village (up to 200 habitants) you have a 75% chance of finding what you want if it cost less than 500 gp.
to me is seem decidedly favourable to the PC as, if I was creating my NPC stock based only on a market magic, there are scrolls I would never make or keep in stock.
For some other not finding them would be sign of troubles with the supply side of the store, as there are scrolls that would be re-ordered as soon as there are less than ten in stock.
Remember that those items have a production cost and no one like to have that "scroll of explosive runes" or "illusionary wall2 gathering dust on one shelf for years for the off chance of selling them one day.
The same can be said of:
Swords, shields, armor, lantern oil, rope, clothing, milk, cheese, horses, guard dogs, etc.
What's more those take longer to make and what's worse the last four items have expiration dates too!
No but Chobe, there should always be a magic item shop that can buy items off the players and provide all that they want. Even if it doesn't make much sense, would be hard as a business to run long term without focus on what the community, not the players want, and the initial investment is extremely high.
Magic merchant of Cornholme: Magic rings? The two wizards of this community only make magic ploughs. I suppose we could get you a lightly enchanted voulge.
Player: not good enough! Where are my scrolls, rings, boots, bracers and armour?
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With magical weapons as easy to create as they've become in Pathfinder (a commoner with a couple of feats can create them), the trait "Heirloom Weapon" doesn't really make sense. A sword that's merely a masterwork sword isn't something that you pass on as an heirloom...it's something you buy on the cheap from the swordsmith's reject pile. After all, he didn't even really bother to finish it. And non-masterwork weapons? They're essentially from the reject pile of the swordsmith's brand new apprentice.
It comes down to what sort of game is being run. If its a high-magic item heavy setting, then it would make sense for magic item shops to be in existence. If its a survival game where its more about braving harsh climates, strange foes and dungeons, magic items are around but are somewhat rare, then it doesn't quite make sense for mystical wal-mart to be round every corner. It lso comes down to preference, what sort of game do the players favor. Everyone has aspects of the game they favor and dislike. Personally, this currently debated issue was addressed before. The high-magic item games are fun but it can become repetitive. The party sets out to solve a quest. Comes back with gold, loot and magic items. Sell the items and upgrade current equipment. If the shop doesn't have it, craft it and sell the old one. Rest at an inn etc. Bit of downtime passes. Repeat that entire cycle for about 85-90% of the game. Whoa. Bit heavy on the safety band-wagon there guys. Played in my fair share of those and what stuck out was that magic items felt less special. Especially so because they were everywhere. In mystical folklore of whichever magical universe, when the story unfolds it speaks of a wizard's mystical ring which he took off a gargoyle necromancer king. Or it could be a skilled warrior's mystical blade, capable of cutting through even stone. Gift from the lady of the woods when he defeated the devil prince of the abyss and saved her people. There is a backstory behind each bit of magical equipment. Making it special not just in what it can do but also special in the context of how it was obtained. Normally through harrowing circumstances, which causes it to be a powerful bit of equipment for the character and deservedly so.
Of course sting was just a dagger and there were so many magical rings Gandalf didn't even think that Bilbo would find the one ring, and magic weapons were so common they buried their dead with them too (barrow wright blades).
Of course elves didn't even understand what Samwise was talking about when he said "elf magic" -- because it was so much a part of them they couldn't distinguish between magic and non-magic.
Strange that you missed "plot device" since the One Ring is the ultimate McGuffin and Sting was also one.Of course sting was just a dagger and there were so many magical rings Gandalf didn't even think that Bilbo would find the one ring, and magic weapons were so common they buried their dead with them too (barrow wright blades).
Of course elves didn't even understand what Samwise was talking about when he said "elf magic" -- because it was so much a part of them they couldn't distinguish between magic and non-magic.
Sting isn't a plot device -- it's a dagger a PC found and gave a name to. The one ring when originally found by Bilbo was a ring -- one of many that were magical. So many that even though it turned him invisible it wasn't even considered to be the one ring -- until much later.