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Alright, well I owe most of this thread inspiration to Brianide, the original poster in this thread. As that thread seems to have devolved into a debate about how "silly" the idea is I thought I would start a new thread for a couple of reasons:
1. James seems annoyed by the idea of using 2 shields and I thought it would be entertaining to see how far we can push the idea to a. show him how effective it can be within the system that he helped design and b. how themeatically fitting it could be within fantasy settings like Golarion or at least played with the Pathfinder rules. I'm sure there are loftier reasons but that was first on my priority list. ;)
2. Because I (and apparently others) find the idea intriguing and I think the thought experiment would be fun.
3. To help the original poster and anyone else considering such a build. Hell, I might eventually use it.
4. There seems to be a lot of resources available to a dual-shielder and I bet I'm even missing a few. I'm curious to see just what kind of strategies could be used here.
5. To annoy James. :D
So, I'm not really going for an exhaustive build here but more a list of tools that definately should be considered in the build. Then maybe we can go through and rate which ones seem best for this type of character. That being said, I am looking for constructive ideas here. If you want to join an entertaining flame war about the validity of using two shields in a fantasy setting then leave it in the other thread. This thread is for those who actually wish to be constructive and helpful not dismissive and close-minded.
Alright, so let us begin.
Race:
Well, as you will see this is going to be a fairly feat intensive build so the obvious choice would be human for the extra feat at first level. Thats pretty straight forward so I will leave it at that.
Themeatically I think we can all agree that Dwarf also seems like a good choice for this build flavor-wise. Afterall, who would be more likely to use dual-shielding than a dwarf? Aside from the flavor bonus the important mechanical bonus would be the alternate racial trait Relentless that gives +2 on CMB for Bull Rush and Overrun attempts. Depending on how you go about this build that +2 is just as good as a bonus feat and thats not to mention the other dwarven goodies that come with it.
Class:
Fighter. If you are using another class you are doing it wrong.
The best reason to use fighter? Because of the Shielded Fighter archetype. These abilities mesh just so well with the build both thematically and mechanically that I find it hard to justify using anything else.
I can see an arguement for Ranger in the earlier levels due to the bonus feats and the non-requirement to meet the Dex prerequisites for the Two Weapon Fighting line of feats but after level 6 they are going to fall far behind the fighter. This is a problem because there are a lot of feats that would be great for this build that simply will be too hard to get. I suppose you could go Ranger 6/Fighter X but I think the build would still be missing out on a lot that fighter has to offer.
Feats:
These are the bread and butter of this build and there are a lot of them. I going to kinda sort these a bit.
Improved Shield Bash - keep your shield bonus to AC when bashing.
Shield Slam - Free bull rush when shield bashing. (so thats going to be with every attack)
Shield Focus - +1 AC when using a shield. This is also a prereq for Shield Master
Shield Master - omg, wut?! O.o Look at this text: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus." Let me spell that out for you: your weapon enhancements now cost you 1/2 price and also grant you an AC bonus unless they grant an effect. Not only that but you can use two large shields with NO penalty to attack. If I'm not mistaken here by RAW that includes TWF penalties. /boggle Check with your DM to make sure of how he understands that this feat works.
Bashing Finish - You get a free shield bash after a critical hit. Since your going to be hitting often (and critting somewhat frequently due to the number of attacks) this will be giving you bonus attacks which result in bonus bull rushes.
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Combat Reflexes - This build requires a high Dex due to the TWF line of feats, and with being a front liner your likely going to be having a lot of opportunities to make AoOs. You need this feat.
Power Attack - Not stelar with a 1 handed weapon but this also is a prereq feat for those listed below.
Improved Bull Rush - +2 on Bull Rush and no AoO
Greater Bull Rush - Enemies you Bull Rush provoke AoOs from your allies.
Bull Rush Strike - You get a free bull rush on a critical hit. Ok, so to be honest I'm not sure how this works in conjunction with Bashing Finish since every shield slam you make initiates a bull rush. This needs clarity.
These feats are nice, but you will likely find you wont have room for them for a while:
Greater Shield Focus - Another +1 to AC.
Shield Specialization - +2 AC vs. Critical
Greater Shield Specialization - Another +2 AC vs. Critical, 1/day negate a Crit
Weapon Focus: Shield - +1 to hit with shields
Weapon Specialization: Shield - +2 to damage with shields
Some good TWF feats to go with the build:
Double Slice - Str bonus to offhand damage rather than 1/2 Str bonus.
Two Weapon Rend - 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to opponent hit by both of your weapons
Other stuff:
Stand Still - If someone moves through a threatened square and provokes an AoO from you when you succeed at a combat maneuver them you can make them stop moving.
Combat Expertise - This synergizes well with the shielded fighter archetypes' 3rd level ability. If you can manage the Int at some point in your career then this could help bump your defense higher. Don't forget you can use this with Power Attack as well.
Lunge - threaten more squares for AoO hillarity.
That does it for feats. I got a couple other things to mention here that are great for the build. First comes the recommended primary weapons for this build:
+1 Spiked Large Shield of Bashing
A normal spiked large shield does 1d6. Bashing moves the weapon up two size categories for it's damage making it do 2d6. Spice with whatever other enhancements you like and flavor with whatever special material you think is most appropriate. I recommend Mithril for the material and the enhancements arrow catching on one, arrow deflection on another energy resistance on each (to two different types), and also a good long look at the Lion's Shield properties.
I think that about does it for now. If you have anything to add please feel free to. I'll likely go back through this list and make a 1-20 build and maybe explain how everything works. I think we are going to need a ruling on how Bull Rush Strike works in conjunction with Bashing Finish though before moving forward too far. Until then, have at it! :)
A word of warning: the Shielded Fighter archetype is crap.
I don't see a single ability on that list worth having over the ability that is replaced.
In fact, since you're going to have a high Dex build for all the TWF feats, your actually going to lose AC by going for Shielded Fighter over the vanilla version, because you lose out on the Max Dex increases from Armor Training.
You could maybe consider the Brawler (shields are on the Close weapon list) or the Two-Weapon Fighter, but the no-archetype Fighter is still really a great choice.
I can definitely enjoy optimizing any concept, even ones that I find so aesthetically displeasing.
mplindustries: I would enjoy seeing the numbers to back that up being that this build only needs a 19 Dex (+4 modifier) to get to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Mithril Full Plate has a Max Dex bonus of +3. The character would only be losing out on 1 point of Dex. I think that is worth giving up for the other abilities grated by Shielded Fighter but if you don't then I would be happy to hear your reasons why.
blackbloodtroll: I mentiond Ranger above and my reasons for passing it up in favor of Fighter.
Just to be sure no one is missing what Shielded Fighter has to offer this build I'd like to post the abilities it grants here:
Active Defense (Ex)
At 3rd level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding a shield and fighting defensively, using Combat Expertise, or using total defense. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd. As a swift action, he may share this bonus with one adjacent ally, or half of the bonus (minimum +0) with all adjacent allies, until the beginning of his next turn.
Shield Fighter (Ex)
At 5th level, a shielded fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a shield bash. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a shielded fighter may alternate between using his weapon or his shield for each attack. This action does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does.
Shield Buffet (Ex)
At 9th level, as a move action, a shielded fighter may make a combat maneuver check to use his shield to impede an adjacent enemy. If successful, the target suffers a –2 penalty on its attack rolls against the shielded fighter and a –2 penalty to AC on attacks made by the shielded fighter until the beginning of his next turn. At 13th level, a shielded fighter may use this ability as a swift action.
Shield Guard (Ex)
At 17th level, as a swift action, a shielded fighter may designate one square adjacent to him. He may designate two squares if using a heavy shield or three squares if using a tower shield, but these squares must be contiguous. Enemies in these squares cannot flank the shielded fighter and do not count for flanking with other creatures. This effect lasts until he moves from his position or uses another swift action to change the affected squares.
Shield Mastery (Ex)
At 19th level, a shielded fighter gains DR 5/— when wielding a shield.
Shield Ward (Ex)
At 20th level, a shielded fighter gains evasion (as a rogue) while wielding a shield, and adds his shield bonus to his AC (not including enhancement bonuses) on Reflex saves and to his touch AC. In addition, his shield cannot be disarmed or sundered.
All of this at the cost of Armor and Weapon Training and Mastery? I think it is all worth it. But if you think I'm wrong then I welcome a reasoning as to why.
They way I have it figured is that Weapon Training breaks even with Shield Fighter as that is going to be the only weapon he ever really uses. Shield Buffet is gravy as the vanilla fighter gets nothing to compair to it and this ability synergizes very well with Stand Still. As does Shield Guard which is another ability that vanilla fighter gets nothing to compair to. Shield Mastery is effectively the same. While I suppose it is a matter of opinion which you would rather have between Shield Ward and Weapon Mastery I would definately choose Shield Ward. Getting evasion, your shield bonus to reflex saves and touch AC is huge. Thats a great capstone ability especially for a build like this.
The damage "lost" from Weapon Mastery I think is easily eclisped by the damage output this character will be doing along with the battlefield control he will have at 20th level. And no, I don't think the 1 point loss in Max Dex bonus to armor is a big deal in comparison to what is gained. Even if it is, I suppose the character doesn't have to wear heavy armor. In fact, it might be advantageous to have a faster movement speed at times. Although if you pick dwarf as race I suppose it is all awash.
I like this idea and myself and a few people in my DnD group have been throwing around the concept. As one of the DM's my first point of interest is that you can not get the AC from two shields as they are both shield bonuses. However you might be able to portray the second shield as a cover bonus. Secondly if you are doing two weapon fighting you need one of the shields to be a light shield as it is two weapon fighting and we want the lowest to hit penalties that we can get. Now I understand you have the shield master feet but it says "Another weapon." My question is does "another weapon" mean a different weapon or just a second weapon your using? If it is just any other weapon than two large shields are golden.
Now I feel that the main problem with two weapon shield fighting is that you have a high dex requirement but you are doing melee and need str to hit and do damage as shields are not weapon fines-sable that causes a certain amount of concern.
I might suggest a ranged shield fighter build. Take two weapon fighting, take rapid shot and the other must have shield feats above. Now according to the shield bash description it doesn't say anything about it having to be a melee attack. Two weapon fighting and rapid shot with ricocheting or just returning shields, quick draw shields out of a bag of holding. this way you utilize that high dex more as you will use it to hit and to qualify for two weapon fighting. Throw in deadly aim for some extra damage to boot.
Other enchantments that are good to recieve and easy to get potions of. Bulls strength, cats grace, enlarge person (increase size increase shield size, bashing makes it act two sizes larger again) this will make the shield do 2d8 damage+str+enchantment+deadly aim. Also since the shields return to you at the end of your attack your ac doesn't suffer.
The brawler archetype looks like it may come out a bit better offensively for only a little trade defensively.
The bonus to bull rush attempts synergize well with shield slam
The bonus damage from close combat training compared to shield fighter helps to offset the high dex requirement for TWF
menacing stance actually beats out shield buffet as a defensive skill eventually and is as good as it (by the time you can use it as a swift action) without eating up an action.
no escape is an incredible move that synergizes wonderfull with the Stand Still feat, which i might add, you get for free and a hefty bonus to.
mplindustries: I would enjoy seeing the numbers to back that up being that this build only needs a 19 Dex (+4 modifier) to get to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Mithril Full Plate has a Max Dex bonus of +3. The character would only be losing out on 1 point of Dex. I think that is worth giving up for the other abilities grated by Shielded Fighter but if you don't then I would be happy to hear your reasons why.
If you don't think you're eventually going to have a +6 Dexterity item, then sure. I don't see why you wouldn't want one, though, and that would make the difference exactly 4.
Oh, and there's also a lot of levels when you still have Dex > 12 before you can afford a suit of Mithril Plate.
Active Defense (Ex)
This ability replaces Armor Training, so you get a situational bonus to AC (only when you actually fight defensively--which is a bad trade--or use Combat Expertise--which you probably can't qualify for), and you lose an "all the time" AC bonus and a skill bonus to boot (effectively).
Shield Fighter (Ex)
You get the same bonus to attack and damage with Shields as a normal fighter would. Hooray! It looks like you broke even.
Oh, no wait. First, the other fighter can get a bonus to a ranged weapon as well--and come on, you'll need a ranged weapon at some point, don't kid yourself. Further, Shield Fighter is not called "Weapon Training," so you lose out on +2 to hit and +2 to damage from Gloves of the Duelist.
Shield Buffet (Ex)
Wow, so you, situationally (at the cost of a move/swift action and a CMB roll) get back 2 of the lost points of AC and the two points of attack bonus you missed from the Gloves of the Duelist. Great...
Shield Guard (Ex)
Hey, cool, a unique ability that isn't just situationally compensating for what you lose otherwise. Or is it? Flanking gives +2 to hit. Wow, another veiled way to get back the AC you lose for losing Armor Training, cool.
Ok, that's not fair, it does stop Sneak Attacking, so, if at level 17, you find yourself facing down a lot of high level Rogues, well, congratulations, this is finally something great.
Shield Mastery (Ex)
This is no different from Armor Mastery. They might as well not even have bothered replacing it.
Shield Ward (Ex)
Ooh, you get Evasion as a Rogue while wielding a shield! Cool, let's look at what Evasion as a Rogue does (emphasis mine):
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion
D'oh!
And just to make sure you know, the snark in this post is directed at the Shielded Fighter archetype, not at you. I'm a bit frustrated, actually, with the fact that 90% of the Fighter archetypes are just traps.
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Firstly, I wanted to note that there are probably two major styles to a dual-shield wielder. The first is the obvious dual-shield wielder, and the second is the less obvious and more defensive tower shield + heavy shield wielder. I'd like to discuss some of the basics of each.
Dual-Heavy: Dual-wielding heavy shields is more offensive, and makes for a solid damage build that doesn't skimp out on defense. While not as damaging as a dual-weapon or even a 2-hander build, a dual-shield build will have more AC, and can even cut one of the worst drawbacks of dual-wielding out of the equation*.
*: Normally dual wielding is plagued by cost issues. Enhancement bonuses cost 2000 gp * enhancement bonus squared, so it is more efficient to just wield a 2 hander most of the time. Warriors in Pathfinder have a feat which allows you to apply the shield's armor enhancement bonus to your attacks as a weapon enhancement bonus; effectively halving the cost for enhancement bonuses on your weapons; which makes them more viable.
Tower & Heavy: The biggest reason to wield a tower shield and a heavy shield is to get an incredibly impressive armor class. Tower shields allow you to use it to gain cover (+4 AC due to cover) which stacks with shield bonuses. This means that you could squeeze out a little more defense when turtling, but all in all it's not super impressive (and the tower shield drawbacks typcially outweigh the benefits). On the flip side, you have the option, and this method is less intensive for someone that doesn't have a good Dexterity and doesn't plan to dual wield.
In either case, I think the Dwarf makes for an excellent race to use for this, for several reasons.
Orcs (not half-orcs, but actual orcs) make a good option as well, since their strength bonuses mean carrying the extra weight will not be an issue, and they are naturally tough as nails, possessing the Ferocity racial ability, which allows them to keep trucking even into the negatives.
Humans are also good, since they're just decent at most anything.
For a class, any of the core classes make decent options, but some of them get their benefits earlier than others. At higher levels with some feat investments, a Paladin could pull this off nicely, and be an excellent spell-tank, especially if you combined their ability to heal, use swift-action spells like grace, their incredible saving throws, and so forth. At lower levels, I feel like the Fighter, Ranger, and Barbarian have the obvious advantages. So let me discuss those first.
Barbarian: A barbarian fits the idea of just slamming stuff into things until they stop moving, and a linebacker barbarian who beats people down with his spiked walls just fits so easily. Barbarians get a pretty decent boost out of this, since it helps keep their AC somewhat respectable even when raging. More importantly, you can combine your shield bashing with certain rage powers, and just generally do what barbarians do best. However, most Barbarians will probably just want to use a 2 handed weapons, since it's far easier to just kill things with raw damage.
Ranger: One of the biggest perks of being a ranger with this option is you can effectively ignore Dexterity and go dual-wield tree, and use your normal feats to pickup shield-based feats. Couple this with your skill points, spells, and nice saving throws, and you get a pretty sweet package. Most importantly, Rangers get easy access to spells like longstrider, resist energy, and lead blade which make you more mobile, more durable, and more damaging*.
*: Get bashing shields, lead blade, and enlarge person and your shield bashes will have a solid 3d6 base damage. Not shabby.
Fighter: Probably the best of core classes for a dedicated shield-wielder. As a living tank, you will probably want to be covered in heavy spiked armor, and dual-wielding heavy spiked shields. You will absolutely want the Weapon Training (Close) option as your primary weapon group, as it covers all shields, armor spikes, gauntlets, unarmed strikes, etc. It will also have the widest selection of feats to quickly specialize in them.
The obvious path would be dual-wielding, so you'll need a 19 Dexterity some way down the line, but beginning with a 15 or even less and boosting it later with items and inherent modifiers is fine, depending on your build and individual campaigns (how much access you will have to gear or inherent mods).
One of the must haves is Improved Shield Bash, which allows you to shield bash while retaining your AC bonus. This is a must have if you plan to dual-wield the shields, but if you're only attacking with one of the shields, then you won't need this feat right now (because losing your shield bonus with one doesn't cause you to lose your shield bonus with the other). So pick this up if you plan to use both shields for attacking.
Other good feats to consider picking up.
There are other options, but this should get you guys started, methinks. I'd definitely suggest getting the bashing enhancement, and if your GM will allow it, get some lead blade magic added to your shields to bring their damage up; otherwise carry some oils of lead blade (50 gp, not too expensive) to apply before big battles (bringing your spiked shield damage from 1d8 -> 2d6 - > 3d6).
How about Crane Style tree? You'd be fighting defensively for less. Also I second the Brawler idea.
Im going to dot this and go to bed.
P.s. check out my profile (Sowde Da'aro)
I think that, practicality aside, it's very important that the character's ranged backup option be four throwing shields.
ooh yeah! the feat Equipment Trick has some cool shield bonuses
For fighting at range look up the Captian Andoran build for good ranged shield ideas.
I think, before anything else, you need to decide if Shield Master works with two shields. Though I think that most of us can agree that thinking that it works that way with two shields is just wishful loophole exploiting and one might as well stamp "Munchkin" on the forehead.
If a rogue, monk or ranger can't remove TWF penalties, the two shields should be the last to get it.
get. Now I understand you have the shield master feet but it says "Another weapon." My question is does "another weapon" mean a different weapon or just a second weapon your using?
Maybe I don't understand the question. If the question is whether a shield is a weapon then the answer is yes. It is listed in the weapon chart for a reason. If the question is does "another weapon" mean "any weapon other than the weapon you just used" then I'm not sure why this matters. I guess maybe I am confused as to the question?...
As for throwing shields; while I can see that as possible I think it would be a different enough build that it might need it's own thread to truely explore. For this build I would prefer to keep it melee.
Also, a high Dex on a tank type character I would hardly call a concern. More like a boon. I get your point about the Str also needing to be decent but remember we are deing with weapons with a high base damage here. Dual wielders that use anything but finessable weapons typically run into this as well but it is an issue that they find away around as well, typically with large feat investments like this build.
Indrajit:
Yeah, I did look at Brawler. IMO, it is a little less well built for the build I had in mind. It would make for a more offensive build but I'm not sure it would handle battlefield control as well. I really liked the way that Shield Guard worked with the rest of the build. But you are correct in everything you say and I think it warrants a mention as a very competative choice.
If you don't think you're eventually going to have a +6 Dexterity item, then sure. I don't see why you wouldn't want one, though, and that would make the difference exactly 4.
Oh, and there's also a lot of levels when you still have Dex > 12 before you can afford a suit of Mithril Plate.
No, I doubt that he would focus on getting a Dex item as I don't see the point of it for that build. But even if he did then he could use armor that has a higher Max Dex bonus and lower Armor bonus. Something like celestial armor might work well. Personally, I think he would be better off spending his money on getting items that boost Str and Con, better shields and other tactically useful items as well.
Mithril full plate isn't that expensive and before he gets to it he has a choice of many different types of armor that can take advantage of his high Dex. I don't see the issue here. Every character needs to have something to look forward to....you get a situational bonus to AC ...and you lose an "all the time" AC bonus and a skill bonus to boot (effectively).
I think you are taking a lot of liberties with the language your using to describe what you say are "all the time" and "effectively". The bonus to AC that you are describing is equally situational depending on the type of armor you wear. Again, I will point out that the dwarf losses a lot less by wearing heavy armor if that is your choice. If not and you choose human then you simply would wear the armor that gives you the most benefit for the Dex that you have and buy Mithril Full Plate when you can afford it. Don't forget about the masterwork quality being added to the armor which would bring the total skill check penalty down to -2 which honestly isn't a big issue considering that Fighters aren't really skill heavy characters as is. There are other ways to reduce this further within Pathfinder only rules if it was really needed. But honestly, it just doesn't seem that important to me.
About Shield fighter: Spined shields are a ranged weapon that can take advantage of this damage. But then again, this build's forte isn't really ranged combat. Neither would the vanilla fighter's forte be. That is what the rest of your party is for.
Oh, and I can think of a few better gloves to use than Gloves of the Duelist for this type of build.
Shield Buffet and Shield Guard: As I said in my above post these abilities are just gravy. In other words you are losing nothing that you haven't already lost and gained other abilities for and get these abilities as well. They are extra. And they are good. They synergize very well as I previously stated.
Shield Ward: So you believe that you would not get Evasion even though the ability specifically states that you do only when wearing shields? That doesn't really make sense at all, does it? No, I think we all know that specific rules trump general rules and this is a perfect example. If you would like an official ruling on it though I would encourage you to go get one and return here with it. I already know what the answer will be.
mplindustries, your post seems very negative and enflamatory all the way around. I would like to refer you to my original post where I said:
"This thread is for those who actually wish to be constructive and helpful not dismissive and close-minded."
Now, if you have something constructive to add to this thread then I would encourage you to offer it forth. Otherwise I would like to refer you to the message right at the bottom of this screen where it says, "The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place." Thank you.
Ashiel: Question for you. You say that the dual-shielder isn't as damaging as a two weapon weilder. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion for two major reasons:
1. Your base weapon damage on a spiked bashing shield is 2d6. There isn't a weapon that has that high of a base damage that is a one handed weapon in the game.
2. As you pointed out your weapons are cheaper to enchant thus more easily able to get higher enhancement bonuses early thus leading to more damage output.
Also I think the enlarged leadened spiked bashing shield would do 4d6 not 3d6, right?
Nice catch with some of your feat suggestions. Merciless Rush, Spiked Destroyer and Squashed Flat are all great suggestions for various types of builds. What sources are these from? I'm thinking they aren't from Pathfinder materials and may not be as available at the game table for this reason. Still... something to consider if they are. :)
I'd like to thank you all (well, most of you at any rate) for being constructive in this thread. In the next few days I might sit down and see what I can build out of all of this.
Well fighters already have a precident for removing them with the Two weapon fighter archetype though i agree getting out free simply because its two shields may be a bit much.
Side effects may include: At table arguments,excessive rules lawyering, irratated GM syndrome, and lack of funds to continually rez your character.
Only you and your GM can decide if Dual-Shielding is right for you.
Well fighters already have a precident for removing them with the Two weapon fighter archetype though i agree getting out free simply because its two shields may be a bit much.
Side effects may include: At table arguments,excessive rules lawyering, irratated GM syndrome, and lack of funds to continually rez your character.
Only you and your GM can decide if Dual-Shielding is right for you.
But the archetype abilities are lvl 11 and 15, and the penalty stays if he uses a one-handed weapon in offhand. He negates the penalty only by using a light weapon.
Just on that basis, while two shields can be cool, one feat shouldn't be exploited to be better than two Armor Trainings.
There's also the fact if too many push it, the shield mastery may as well get errata'd to specifically word on single shield, because let's face it, that was the intent, to let you stab someone, then bash them stupid, not let you use the equilavent of two one-handed weapons with no penalties.
Squawk Featherbeak: Oh, awesome catch! I'm going to post it here so people can easily check it out:
Break Ground (Improved Trip, Throw Anything): In place of a melee attack, you can throw your shield at an opponent’s feet, interfering with his movement and perhaps tripping him. You must be holding (not wearing) your shield or using a throwing shield to use this trick. Make a trip attack against your opponent. The opponent can be no larger than your own size category, and the range penalty applies to your trip attempt. If you succeed, the target is knocked prone. Failing this attempt does not knock you prone unless you are within your opponent’s reach. Whether or not you succeed, as long as your shield remains where you threw it, the opponent treats that square as difficult terrain until he moves out of the square.
Hurl Shield (Throw Anything): You can throw your shield as a ranged improvised weapon. You must be holding (not wearing) your shield to perform this trick. If you are using a throwing shield, there is no reason to use this trick.
Little Wall (Escape Artist 5 ranks): You can contort your body behind your shield in order to gain a brief moment of security. Whenever you use the total defense action, you may choose to gain cover instead of the normal dodge bonus to AC.
Keen Eye (Perception 5 ranks): You have mastered the art of using the reflective surface of your shield to locate foes that you dare not look at directly. On your turn, you may choose to forfeit your shield’s AC bonus for 1 round to improve your defenses against one creature using a gaze attack. Your chance to avoid having to make a saving throw against that creature’s gaze attack increases to 100%, and the creature does not gain concealment against you. For every 5 ranks in Perception you have above 5, you may simultaneously use this ability against another creature with a gaze attack.
Release Shield (no prerequisites): You may remove a light or heavy shield as a swift action instead of a move action. You may remove a throwing shield (see page 5) as a free action. Once you’ve removed the shield, you may hold it in one hand or drop it as a free action.
Ricochet Shield (Deadly Aim, Throw Anything): When you throw a shield, you can bounce it off one or more hard surfaces in order to strike a target from an unexpected angle or to bypass an obstacle such as cover. Each object you ricochet your shield off of imposes a –2 penalty on the attack roll. Range increments apply for the total distance the shield travels, not just the direct distance between you and the target.
Shield Gag (Improved Grapple, Throw Anything): You can force your shield into the mouth of a creature to prevent it from using bite attacks or other mouthbased abilities. Make a grapple check against a creature at least two sizes larger than your size category. If you succeed, you wedge your shield into its mouth. At any time you may release your shield, which means you both lose the grappled condition and return to your own squares, though your shield remains in its mouth. The creature may remove the shield by destroying it (or leaving it with the broken condition), forcing the shield out of its mouth with a grapple check against your CMB, or swallowing it (if it has the swallow whole ability) as if the shield were a creature. While the shield is in place, the monster cannot use its mouth to make attacks (such as a bite or a giant frog’s sticky tongue) against anything but the shield and cannot speak clearly enough to cast spells or use items requiring speech. If it uses a breath weapon, its range is half normal and any damage dealt must first get through the shield, with any remaining damage affecting the area normally.
I think these are all made to work with the ranged shield fighter type but definately a good catch! :)
Ramza Wyvernjack: Well, Shield Master definately works with two shields but I agree there is some question as to whether it was intended to remove the -2 penalties. It may not be the RAI but it is the RAW. This is why, though, I mentioned in my original post that you may want to just clear the issue up with your DM before play. I have known plenty of DMs who prefer RAW over someone's (even a designer's) RAI opinion. Better to just be sure with how your group percieves this rule.
True the only dual shielding we have seen in my games was a tower heavy guy with a merciful heavy bashing adamantine shield and a (not raw but i allow it) mithral tower shield. Guy focused on keeping things away from his sister the Life oracle.
It's not -2. -2 is for light weapon in offhand. A heavy shield is not that, nor will it ever be one, so it's a -4.
If we gonna make it a cool style, and even consider proving it's a valid tactic, using an exploit is a stupid way to go. No offence, but munchkins ruin the games, if you think a feat should/could remove the whole TWF penalty from two One-handed weapons, I'm afraid you're either are, or about to become a munch. And I'm not talking about min-maxing or optimizing, go for it, optimize two shields and twf as much as possible, but if you know that Shield Master is too good with two shields, and still take it, then it's not about making two shields viable and cool, but about exploiting the rules to get the strongest TWF build.
Personally I'd allow dual shields, it could be cool visually. But non of players at my table would even considering reading Shield Master as it has been suggested here.
Also, bout feat wording. Shields are specified as shields in feats and abilities. The fact that is specifies Weapon should be enough to shut that idea down.
There's also the fact if too many push it, the shield mastery may as well get errata'd to specifically word on single shield, because let's face it, that was the intent, to let you stab someone, then bash them stupid, not let you use the equilavent of two one-handed weapons with no penalties.
I disagree with that interpretation being the intent. I point to the wording of the feat as my evidence. The only way to know for sure is to ask the designers but even then you may only be getting one designer's opinions. I know from experience (I used to post frequently on Sean K. Reynold's board) that asking what the intent of a rule was to one designer can result in a different opinion from another designer.
Honestly, I don't even think "pushing it" would be such a bad idea. It might force an official ruling on it and I don't see that as a bad thing. Either way it might just be better to ask your individual DM and group as to how they would like to handle it. IMO, the most balanced method would be to completely allow it but not let it remove -2 penalties from both attacks.
As far as rulings go I'm far more concerned about how Bashing Finish and Bull Rush Strike interact. I may make a post in the rules forum just to get an answer on that.
Ramza: Relax and save the name calling. I'm no munchkin. I think I understand that the feat should work the same way you do. Well, maybe. I do believe that it removes the penalties for fighting with a heavy shield (regardless of which hand it is in) thus making the penalty -2 for both hands. But I'm just pointing out the difference in Rules As Written and Rules As Intended. Intention is objective. Even amoung designers.
Again, that is why I suggest leaving this question for your DM and/or group to decide how they'd like to handle it. And either way the feat itself is still a valuable feat for the build.
If you think that the feat works differently than that or wish to seek a ruling then I encourage you to do so.
Sorry for that, long night.
But there's one problem that makes two Shields impossible.
Bash attacks are off-hand only, meaning you can't attack with two unless you got three arms. CBR 152, shield bash attacks.
Now that, is both Raw and Rai. Though a heavy shield is still considered a One-handed weapon, making it a -4, not -2 penalty.
You know, Ramza... that is a good point actually. But try as I might I could not find the definition as to what an "off-hand" weapon is aside from a mention that you do not get your full strenght bonus when using a weapon in it. That part is definately true, it seems. So I would guess that both shields would recieve the off-hand penalty. That is... until you get Double Slice.
Also I do not doubt thata heavy shield is considered a one handed weapon. That is pretty clear. Its listed right there on the weapon table as being a one handed weapon. It would normally give a -4 penalty to the attack. I agree with that as well. However, with the shield master feat you "text: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon." It is pretty clear, man. You don't get the penalty.
I think the problem is that the same logic you are using to justify that it is a one handed WEAPON can be used to justify that it is a WEAPON in the for use in the feat that is actually talking about it being used as such.
I am curious, I guess, as to how you or your group would actually rule on this feat working. I can't help but thinking it would be a house rule that changes the wording of the feat. Perhaps I'm wrong though?
I can't find anything specific on it. Probably because it was never considered that anyone would make both his hands off-hands.
As it is though, from what I picked up on the forums, you pick which hand is off-hand on each attack, meaning you can change weapon hand. Common sense says no to two off-hands without Multi-weapon fighting, which gives you one main hand, and makes rest offhand, making it arguably a requirement to have at least one main hand.
Offhand is certainly a relative term. If you're wielding two daggers you count as having a light weapon in your offhand, even though you never declare which is your offhand. I'm not sure how this blocks you, I certainly wouldn't stop a guy with a short sword and heavy shield from making a shield bash attack because the large shield would be considered "main hand" for some reason.
@Lastoth
What I've heard and seen is that you pick your offhand on each attack. Now, reading on TWF rules, the off-hand is an extra attack, meaning you actually HAVE to attack with main-hand as well. So no to just using a shield bash. Which is weird.
On the other hand, using two shields. You could use the 'main-hand' as an improvised weapon, that way, you can hit someone with it, THEN initiate Shield Master bash for no penalty. It's a way around, but it works better than changing the wording or playing with "what is off-hand" definitions.
@blackbloodtroll
TWF wording: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." to initiate an extra attack, it sounds like you need to hit with something else first.
If we ignore that, the fact still remains:"When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand."
When fighting in this way. While it doesn't say you NEED to use a main hand attack before or after, it does clearly state that an off-hand attack takes TWF penalty. So even if using just a shield, twf applies. Which is why using it as an Improvised weapon is more beneficial.
Gorbacz: Please see original post. There is already a thread to call dual-shielding silly. This is a thread for people to actually be constructive.
Lastoth: That is kinda what I was thinking and you sorta revealed my defense. ;P
Anyway, I posted about these questions in the rules forum. Lets see what comes of it cause I am definately curious at this point.
An attack with a shield need not be an off-hand attack.
An attack does not. A bash does.
You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
Sry for double post, but noticed something else.
A shield can be made into a weapon, and enchanted as such. But those enhancements will not add to the shield bash attacks, if you read spiked shield text.
Which makes it weird, because Shield Master lets you add enhancement bonus to attacks, but it does not mention shield bash, which former feats specifically do.
Check the FAQ it has info on your shield not always being off hand
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Ah, yes. I found it. I'll post it here:
If I make a shield bash (page 152), does it always have to be an off-hand attack?
The text for a shield bash assumes you're making a bash as an off-hand attack, but you don't have to. You can, for example, just make a shield bash attack (at your normal, main-hand attack bonus) or shield bash with your main hand and attack with a sword in your off-hand.
Update: Page 152—In the Shield Bash Attacks section, in the first sentence, delete “using it as an off-hand weapon.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/31/11
Ah, nice find. I'm never able to find a link to faq, so can't check it :|
Then I guess you can attack with two shield bashes in one go.
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Gorbacz: Please see original post. There is already a thread to call dual-shielding silly. This is a thread for people to actually be constructive.
Lastoth: That is kinda what I was thinking and you sorta revealed my defense. ;P
Well, you're obviously new here and not aware of my famous ability to contribute constructive input into discussion I deem to be of high relevance.
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Is being new here a problem for anyone?
Nothing wrong with being new. Lune says it is partially to annoy the paizo staff but I think he's more intrigued by the dual shield -wielding concept. Good side thread by the way. Seeing some very tasty feat combinations with the dual shields. Another way to do it would be to stick with what you've already suggested but go a buckler and take the off-hand parry feat. Always good to discuss possible character builds especially non-wroughty, power-gaming builds like this one. Appeal to authority reminds me of the chinese band-wagon argument. If enough of us leap on, then anything else is frowned upon or looked down upon via long pointy noses.
Lune is a badass. New, eager to argue with the creative director, take that director to task when the director calls someone's idea silly.
What we have here is a god-d*mn maverick!
Two shield users are going into my game. Start with wild mountain tribes, see what the players think. Ha ha, imagine if they lubed up their shields with poison too! So that is a dose of contact for each. Bam to the face.
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Dual shieldies were thought of long since the shield was invented. Humans are a creative and innovative race. We aspire to find new ways to do things regardless of what others tell us to do. For some such as I, it is that spite and rejection that drives us to pursue what others believe to be impossible, stupid, or both. This is not for bragging rights, but rather for the conquest that we did something great.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
(Double Tiger Head Shield technique)
Also, historical, as pointed out in the other thread.
prototype00
I wasn't the only one who was annoyed by Paizo staff. If you don't believe me, go read the other thread. And I tried to make it pretty clear that saying I was creating the thread to annoy James was done so tongue and cheek. Once again, Gorbacz, I would like constructive feedback here. If the only reason you are here is to troll a thread and complain then I will again ask you to do so elsewhere.
And while I may be new here I am certainly not new to the community or to other boards. ...not that being new should be a problem, right? ;) Thank you for the warm welcome though.