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raw insults and ad hominem are not the same thing.
ad hominem is when you say the other poster's not valid because he's silly.
Which you almost tacitly did:
If you and your table want to include twin shield wielding fighters then all power to you. You can have chicken player races and singing horses, it's your game and your table. Our group wouldn't want them as we value the thematic aspect of our games too much to let such ahistorical rule exploits creep in.
As I've said before, each table/group has a different tolerance to such things. I am not trying to stop from playing your favourite 'kewl karacter', whether he has two shields or two bunches of flowers as his build. I am saying that it wouldn't be welcome in our group.
Unless chicken pcs and singing horses is considered 'not silly' at your table... In that case of course comparing twin shield fighting to them means they're not silly to you... I entirely apologize. You weren't ad homineming at all.
You could say 'Everyone can run the game the way they see fit, I wouldnt allow them at my table' and then leave the 'why's' up for further discussion, but the why here seems to be that they are akin to singing horses... I don't want to put words in your mouth... So I guess the question now is do you allow singing horses and chicken pcs... If not, then why not? Just to clarify. Warpriest of the order of the Florentine Flowers?
Indeed you further take the ad hominem to inception levels...
It's a little like Godwin - it tends to suggest that the real arguments have exhausted themselves and people are resorting to just getting pissy.
Again using colorful language to skirt around what is essentially 'People calling you out on being insulting just means they are 'pissy' and having run out of 'genuine' arguments.'
Its like you dont even realize you're doing it.
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Eat your words. Eat them up. With two shields as dishes.I'll happily concede that this proves that an obscure martials school taught the style from 1836.Third, only a few kung fu systems ever taught this weaponIt does not, however, prove that any fighting organisation 'regularly and deliberately equipping themselves with two shields', which was the challenge. I'm sure that I can link to all sorts of weird martial arts styles that utilise peculiar tools, from flutes to fans and garden implements. None of it means that the weapon style is a serious fighting prospect.
As I said back at the start, a player with a good background story (i.e. not, 'because I get a cheesy advantage') would probably get away with playing such a character.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that kung-fu cannot be used to fight, but it is not exactly the first choice of technique when in battle. Knowing how to fight with a musical instrument means you can fight, but if that is your primary weapon then you'll likely to chopped to pieces by someone with a 'real' weapon. What I am looking for is evidence that the fighting style was good enough that it was used in real, deadly, combat. That's the real test for any weapon or style, not sports or leisure applications.
You mean a fighting organization like the Chinese martial arts schools that practised the two-shield style?
If you think kung-fu cannot be used in a fight and can't be used to kill, I encourage you to travel to famous temples and "test your might". You see, kung-fu has a long history of being used in battle, famously being used to kill bandits many many times. If you think people that train all their life are useless, go and prove it. I noticed above you mocked the monk's spade, that is very funny, since the monk's spade can actually do hideous wounds.
On what is the 'first choice of technique when in battle', what do you know of killing people in battle?
Is it... zip? As you have demonstrated, you know very little about martial arts, lack a breadth of knowledge, and are limited by what you think is stupid. So much so that you reject specific traditions out of hand because you think they are silly - even when we have martial artists telling you, it can work well and I even found move lists for you, i.e. dual shield use means you can not only attack and block at the same time, you can also pull off such things as double uppercuts with the pointed parts of the two shields.
Tsk tsk tsk. Seems like you just want to argue. A shield is a real weapon. If you learnt how to use one, or even just read more and paid attention, you would realise this.
I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do[...]
Not only is it optimal, it's arguably the best two-weapon-fighting technique in the game, thanks to this gem:
Yeah, that is pretty good. I know what I'll be taking for the next level 11 game. Cheers.
I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do[...]Not only is it optimal, it's arguably the best two-weapon-fighting technique in the game, thanks to this gem:
You'd be significantly reducing the effectiveness of Bashing Finish if you did that. A keen Kukri will deliver slightly less damage on its own but grant you additional attacks for the sacrifice. You can enchant your sheild spikes to be keen, but the 19-20 threat range is underwhelming for that purpose.
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Eat your words. Eat them up. With two shields as dishes.I'll happily concede that this proves that an obscure martials school taught the style from 1836.Third, only a few kung fu systems ever taught this weaponIt does not, however, prove that any fighting organisation 'regularly and deliberately equipping themselves with two shields', which was the challenge. I'm sure that I can link to all sorts of weird martial arts styles that utilise peculiar tools, from flutes to fans and garden implements. None of it means that the weapon style is a serious fighting prospect.
As I said back at the start, a player with a good background story (i.e. not, 'because I get a cheesy advantage') would probably get away with playing such a character.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that kung-fu cannot be used to fight, but it is not exactly the first choice of technique when in battle.
Ah, so you apply this rule to all kung-fu techniques. Gotcha. Interesting way to keep the monk down.
Oh, and yeah, I've got a guy in my game who fights with a scimitar/shield (klar, technically). He just hit 6th level, and guess what he's using the iterative attack for? Not the scimitar. The shield slam is just too good to pass up.
You'd be significantly reducing the effectiveness of Bashing Finish if you did that. A keen Kukri will deliver slightly less damage on its own but grant you additional attacks for the sacrifice. You can enchant your sheild spikes to be keen, but the 19-20 threat range is underwhelming for that purpose.I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do[...]Not only is it optimal, it's arguably the best two-weapon-fighting technique in the game, thanks to this gem:
Ah, but with Improved Critical, you can crit on either weapon for that bonus bash. Bashing Finish seems to require the crit not be with the bashing bash shield, after all, but with dual-wield, you get two chances.
The odds still aren't as good as a keen kukri, but pretty respectable.
You'd be significantly reducing the effectiveness of Bashing Finish if you did that. A keen Kukri will deliver slightly less damage on its own but grant you additional attacks for the sacrifice. You can enchant your sheild spikes to be keen, but the 19-20 threat range is underwhelming for that purpose.I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do[...]Not only is it optimal, it's arguably the best two-weapon-fighting technique in the game, thanks to this gem:
Ah, but with Improved Critical, you can crit on either weapon for that bonus bash. Bashing Finish seems to require the crit not be with the bashing bash shield, after all, but with dual-wield, you get two chances.
The odds still aren't as good as a keen kukri, but pretty respectable.
You can also have Klars with Keen on either the spikes or the blades, or both. Again, not as consistent as a Kukri, but gets the job done, and saves a Feat.
Plus double-shields is effective against enemies that cannot be Crit'ed; Bashing Finish is useless against things like Oozes and other "immune to Sneak/Crit" enemies. Double Spiked Shield/Klar would allow you to do both Double Shields and Bashing Finish.
And if you REALLY want to go the Crit-spamming route, you don't use a Kurki - you use a Wakizashi. Same size/damage as a Shortsword, but same Crit Range as a Kukri.
Plus, using the shields saves you having to use one of your feats on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Dual-wielding (especially with a shield involved) can be expensive as-is.
By the way, wanna know the fun side effect of saying, "Yeah, Shield Master lets you add that enhancement bonus to attacks/damage, but it's not explicitly called an actual enhancement bonus"?
It indicates that that bonus is an untyped bonus and we can then purchase Bashing, or even just Masterwork, and let it stack on.
;)
