Why not dual shields?


Advice

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Holding two shields won't give you any extra shield bonus, but a fighter with the proper feats that wields enhanced/spiked/bashing shields is going to be dishing out solid damage while still getting an AC bonus from them. Is there a good reason not to do this? I put together a warrior NPC who fights like this with "razorshields" (functionally the same as spiked, but they have bladed edges and deal slashing instead of piercing), and I like him a lot.


I've seen some specialized dual shield bash builds. I dunno why people want to do them, but there must be some exploit they've managed to take advantage of.


I remenber a feat in

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/4WindsFantasyGaming/v5748btpy8eu4

that give you a bonuses for dualwielding shields, but I do not remebeer what was the bonus.


If you have bashing spiked light shields, I think they'd do a d8 each. So you basically have a pair of longswords that count as light weapons, and you're still getting a good shield bonus to AC. Not too shabby. My fighter is sword and board himself, but this NPC I crafted is cool, too.


In addition, you can take Close Weapons as your primary weapon group so your main and off hand have the max bonus.

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Brianide wrote:
If you have bashing spiked light shields, I think they'd do a d8 each. So you basically have a pair of longswords that count as light weapons, and you're still getting a good shield bonus to AC. Not too shabby. My fighter is sword and board himself, but this NPC I crafted is cool, too.

So basically, it's the same as if you had a longsword in one hand and a bashing spiked light shield in the other, except you've spent a lot more money?

The only advantage I can see (aside from the satisfaction of novelty, I suppose) is that you can't be disarmed of a shield.


Well, the other bonus is that weapon focus, weapon training, weapon spec etc count for both of your shields, rather than either the sword or the shield. That looks like the primary advantage to me

Dark Archive

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The other bonus is that many opponents will have to pass a will save to not fall prone laughing at you.


Mergy wrote:
The other bonus is that many opponents will have to pass a will save to not fall prone laughing at you.

I think that's a fort save, right?

Or was it reflex?


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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I've seen some specialized dual shield bash builds. I dunno why people want to do them, but there must be some exploit they've managed to take advantage of.

Yes, no TWF penalties, hence you can wield two large shields doing 2d6 each with no penalties whatsoever. Why does that need to be an exploit though? It seems to be RAW.


Weables wrote:
Well, the other bonus is that weapon focus, weapon training, weapon spec etc count for both of your shields, rather than either the sword or the shield. That looks like the primary advantage to me

This. All the advantages of Two Weapon Fighting with a pair of identical weapons, plus the shield bonus of actually having a shield.

The downside is that TWF with kukris does a more damage thanks to the higher crit rate for the kukri.

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Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!


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James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

Dungeons of Dredmor, it's a gamewinning build:

http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Builds:Dual_shield_Unarmed

Hey, you did say anything.

prototype00


James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Kassens Golem from page 14 of of your product Crypt of the Everflame. Dual wielding shields (tower shields no less). Just asked my players how effective that was :-P

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Lastoth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Kassens Golem from page 14 of of your product Crypt of the Everflame. Dual wielding shields (tower shields no less). Just asked my players how effective that was :-P

FAIL. :-P

I require evidence of this fighting style existing outside of an RPG (maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post). Preferably something from a source before 1970, in fact.

Because a lot of what we put into the game is inspired by cool things from the real world or established stories. If fighting with two shields is a viable way to fight, as opposed to any other way to fight... it would have happened before page 14 of Crypt of the Everflame.

Just because the rules say you can doesn't make it good.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

prototype00 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

Dungeons of Dredmor, it's a gamewinning build:

http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Builds:Dual_shield_Unarmed

Hey, you did say anything.

prototype00

ALSO FAIL. See above!

I am eager to be proven wrong! But I really don't think the dual shield fighting style is something that deserves a place in the game as a viable player option.


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Y'all are missing the obvious.

The feat Shield Master makes it so you can apply a shield's defensive enhancement bonus to its attack rolls/damage. Defensive enhancements are cheaper;
(bonus^2)*1000, rather than (bonus^2)*2000.
Shield Master also removes TWF penalties when using a weapon and shield (weapon here being other shield)

One of Shield Master's prereqs is Shield Slam, which allows a free bullrush attempt whenever you hit with a shield bash.

This bullrush attempt is modified by any effects that modify a bullrush, such as Improved and Greater Bullrush. Greater Bullrush allows you and your allies to take AoOs against the enemy when you successfully bullrush him. Add this to the high Dex needed for a TWF build, and the additional AoOs from Combat Reflexes, and suddenly, the build gets mad battlefield control combined with some of the more powerful TWF offense attainable, and well above-average defense to boot.

Not perfect, but what is?

The Exchange

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Bucklers were called the Poor-Man's-Shield, and was used by itself or with a dagger. Someone would ram the edge of the Buckler into the opponents face, with devistating power. Imagine a Boxing Glove made of Steel or hardened leather wide enough to hit both eyes, thin enough to hit precisly where you were aiming it, strong enough to be used repeatedly, and cheap enough to be bought by everyone. If you didn't have a knife on you, you would have a Buckler. Friar Tuck from Robin Hood used a Buckler and deflected his arrows at point blank range.

That is attacking with just a shield. I heard there was evidence of using two Bucklers with a two handed sword, and using two Bucklers at once, but never anything bigger.


James Jacobs wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

Dungeons of Dredmor, it's a gamewinning build:

http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Builds:Dual_shield_Unarmed

Hey, you did say anything.

prototype00

ALSO FAIL. See above!

I am eager to be proven wrong! But I really don't think the dual shield fighting style is something that deserves a place in the game as a viable player option.

Does anime count? If so I found 2 references there. Outside of that you win this argument.


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Incidentally, why does it have to look cool? Far as I'm concerned, it just needs to work.


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Thats something I have never understood... A buckler is designed to be used as both a defense and a weapon. Yet, in PF/3.X, its the one shield that you cant bash with! Madness!

The Exchange

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Dexion1619 wrote:
Thats something I have never understood... A buckler is designed to be used as both a defense and a weapon. Yet, in PF/3.X, its the one shield that you cant bash with! Madness!

I agree with this statement.


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James Jacobs wrote:


I require evidence of this fighting style existing outside of an RPG (maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post). Preferably something from a source before 1970, in fact.

Um, James, no offense but...

Doubleaxe?
Doublesword?
.
.
.
&$^%%#&*ing DIREFLAIL?

You want a real world example of a two-shield fighting style in a world which contains these weapons?

Come on now.


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Tell me this isn't cool.


@James
i know captain america only uses one shield, but he's a prime example of how a shield can be used as a weapon.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Irulesmost wrote:
Incidentally, why does it have to look cool? Far as I'm concerned, it just needs to work.

Because of aesthetic requirements. "Just needing to work" is not good enough for Pathfinder.

It's the same reason we take the extra time and effort to make the books we publish look so pretty, to a certain extent.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Doomed Hero wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


I require evidence of this fighting style existing outside of an RPG (maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post). Preferably something from a source before 1970, in fact.

Um, James, no offense but...

Doubleaxe?
Doublesword?
.
.
.
&$^%%#&*ing DIREFLAIL?

You want a real world example of a two-shield fighting style in a world which contains these weapons?

Come on now.

I petitioned really REALLY hard to remove those weapons from Pathifnder. But I lost that argument because we were a lot more timid in those days regarding what we could and couldn't keep and lose from 3rd edition. You'll note that doubleaxes and doubleswords and a lot of those types of weapons do NOT show up often at all in our adventures and other products—not because they're broken, but because they're silly.

Those goofy weapons are in the rules, but they have a REALLY hard time existing in Golarion because I resist having NPCs using them as much as I can.

The existence of something silly is not an excuse to allow something else silly to exist.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

FuelDrop wrote:

@James

i know captain america only uses one shield, but he's a prime example of how a shield can be used as a weapon.

Agree—but he doesn't use 2 shields, and that's kind of my point.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Doomed Hero wrote:
Tell me this isn't cool.

I actually think it's not cool; I think it's kinda silly. Also not something from before RPGs, but something that looks like it was specifically DESIGNED fro an RPG.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

JoeJJohnsonII wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Show me something from anything—history, movies, comic books, whatever—that's not an RPG— where someone uses two shields in a cool fighting style that doesn't look lame and actually looks like it works to both defend and fight... then we'll talk!

Dungeons of Dredmor, it's a gamewinning build:

http://www.dredmorwiki.com/wiki/Builds:Dual_shield_Unarmed

Hey, you did say anything.

prototype00

ALSO FAIL. See above!

I am eager to be proven wrong! But I really don't think the dual shield fighting style is something that deserves a place in the game as a viable player option.

Does anime count? If so I found 2 references there. Outside of that you win this argument.

If said anime predates RPGs' influence, and is based on real-world mythology or history, then yes it does count. If not, then nope.


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Lastoth wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I've seen some specialized dual shield bash builds. I dunno why people want to do them, but there must be some exploit they've managed to take advantage of.
Yes, no TWF penalties, hence you can wield two large shields doing 2d6 each with no penalties whatsoever. Why does that need to be an exploit though? It seems to be RAW.

From where do you get the "no TWF penalties"? The PRD states in the equipment chapter:

PRD wrote:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Obviously, the bolding is mine. There's a similar entry for heavy shields, too, stating that they are treated as one-handed weapons.


I'm with James. A shield is an awesome weapon on its own, but two becomes awkward and unwieldy (not to mention silly).


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In the last Hulk movie with Ed Norton.

The scene where he is in the park, he rips a bit of modern art into pieces and uses them as dual spiked shields.

Now while I admit that most dual shields look stupid in that case they were amazing.

Yes it is from after the period you asked for but really thats all ive got.

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I don't understand why fighting styles should be realistic in a fantasy game with wizards running around doing all sorts of silly things. If they get to be jokers, why can't fighters?

Anyway, here's a picture of a Maasai warrior with two shields. I don't know the history of this culture at all, I'll admit. This came up on google: http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

I maintain that peculiar weapon styles should have a place in RPGs though.


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James Jacobs wrote:


I petitioned really REALLY hard to remove those weapons from Pathifnder. But I lost that argument because we were a lot more timid in those days regarding what we could and couldn't keep and lose from 3rd edition. You'll note that doubleaxes and doubleswords and a lot of those types of weapons do NOT show up often at all in our adventures and other products—not because they're broken, but because they're silly.

Those goofy weapons are in the rules, but they have a REALLY hard time existing in Golarion because I resist having NPCs using them as much as I can.

The existence of something silly is not an excuse to allow something else silly to exist.

Fair enough. I actually don't use them in my games either for the same reasons.

I did once have a regiment of heavily armored orcs who used a special combination of spiked Heavy Shield and Light Shield that were designed to fit together to form a sort of interlocking shield wall that could be used to bash and scythe. Sort of a phalanx combined with a meat grinder. The orcs had the Bodyguard feats and the ones that let you raise your buddy's AC.

According to my players it was one of the most terrifying encounters I ever came up with. I've had a soft spot for the idea of using two shields ever since.

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Irulesmost wrote:

Shield Master also removes TWF penalties when using a weapon and shield (weapon here being other shield)

One of Shield Master's prereqs is Shield Slam, which allows a free bullrush attempt whenever you hit with a shield bash.

<stuff about AoO's>

I'd houserule that dual-shielding doesn't threaten any squares at all. Besides, I'd also interpret "weapon and shield" to mean (literally) a weapon and a shield, not shield and a shield, no matter how awesome you are with shields.

And dual-shielding just looks stupid--how do they not get in the way of each other like, ALL the time?

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Thefurmonger wrote:

In the last Hulk movie with Ed Norton.

The scene where he is in the park, he rips a bit of modern art into pieces and uses them as dual spiked shields.

Now while I admit that most dual shields look stupid in that case they were amazing.

Yes it is from after the period you asked for but really thats all ive got.

That's actually the best example I've ever heard, to tell the truth.

Not sure if that makes it justification to support a two-shield fighting style, or if it's a better monster ability to give to some giant hulking thug though...

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Petty Alchemy wrote:

I don't understand why fighting styles should be realistic in a fantasy game with wizards running around doing all sorts of silly things. If they get to be jokers, why can't fighters?

Anyway, here's a picture of a Maasai warrior with two shields. I don't know the history of this culture at all, I'll admit. This came up on google: http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

I maintain that peculiar weapon styles should have a place in RPGs though.

Seems to be something funny with that URL... nothing coming up for me.

BUT! That's exactly the type of thing I wanted to learn about. If there's a Maasai two-shield fighting tradition... AWESOME!


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Why would you see dual wielding bucklers as anything other than a variation on cestus combat? You add a sharp metal reinforced plate and possibly a spike and the martial maneuvers are going to be near on identical except for increased stopping power and a different positioning of open handed holds. Now dual wielding heavy shields is a little silly, nothing really wrong with it, but I don't know if the extra cover is worth the drop in maneuverability and reach.


what if the shields had a flat edge to the front with massive spike/claws sticking out of that, kind of like claws attached to an ultra-wide vambrace? i've got something similar in RL that are used for gardening, but i can easily see a varient being weaponised. take a look

and yes, they won't work as is, but they wouldn't take that much adaption.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

Seems to be something funny with that URL... nothing coming up for me.

BUT! That's exactly the type of thing I wanted to learn about. If there's a Maasai two-shield fighting tradition... AWESOME!

James, if you look closely, there's a space in the word "community" in the URL. I removed that space, and the website came right up. Hope that helps. The picture is pretty awesome.

Liberty's Edge

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James Jacobs wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

I don't understand why fighting styles should be realistic in a fantasy game with wizards running around doing all sorts of silly things. If they get to be jokers, why can't fighters?

Anyway, here's a picture of a Maasai warrior with two shields. I don't know the history of this culture at all, I'll admit. This came up on google: http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

I maintain that peculiar weapon styles should have a place in RPGs though.

Seems to be something funny with that URL... nothing coming up for me.

BUT! That's exactly the type of thing I wanted to learn about. If there's a Maasai two-shield fighting tradition... AWESOME!

Link fixed


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After watching a Deadliest Warrior episode where the guy representing the spartans demonstrated the lethality of a shield blow I've wanted to make a shield wielding warrior. But never did it cross my mind to go with two shields...

I'm with James on this. Its silly and so is the direflail. I'll give people the double sword, but only because of Star Wars and thats as far as I'm willing to go. There is a fantasy element to the weapon stats in all versions of D&D/Pathfinder and I think they've been more game based and have kept to the original created lists than attempted to reflect the true lethality and utility of the weapons. Back in a 3.5 game one of the player's commented that there never was an army of spiked chain wielders dominating a region in history and yet it was one of the best weapons in 3.5 D&D. But thats okay as most groups I've found make their choices for weapons on what suits their character and of course what magical item of awesomeness that they just happened to pick up.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

I don't understand why fighting styles should be realistic in a fantasy game with wizards running around doing all sorts of silly things. If they get to be jokers, why can't fighters?

Anyway, here's a picture of a Maasai warrior with two shields. I don't know the history of this culture at all, I'll admit. This came up on google: http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

I maintain that peculiar weapon styles should have a place in RPGs though.

Seems to be something funny with that URL... nothing coming up for me.

BUT! That's exactly the type of thing I wanted to learn about. If there's a Maasai two-shield fighting tradition... AWESOME!

There was a space in his URL. Here's the fixed version:

http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

Honestly, it looks more like the guy is dancing or just showing off for the camera. I couldn't find any other reference to a Maasai warrior using two shields.

Gotta be honest: the cowboy that's an inherent part of pretty much all of my rpg characters would think anyone wielding two shields was a yella-bellied coward.

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James Jacobs wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

I don't understand why fighting styles should be realistic in a fantasy game with wizards running around doing all sorts of silly things. If they get to be jokers, why can't fighters?

Anyway, here's a picture of a Maasai warrior with two shields. I don't know the history of this culture at all, I'll admit. This came up on google: http://www.stepuptravel.org/article/user/bushadventures/re-learning-communi ty-through-traditional-maasai-skills

I maintain that peculiar weapon styles should have a place in RPGs though.

Seems to be something funny with that URL... nothing coming up for me.

BUT! That's exactly the type of thing I wanted to learn about. If there's a Maasai two-shield fighting tradition... AWESOME!

Peculiar, it works for me. If I knew the code for making urls clickable on forums, I would do that.

Edit: It seems everyone else has fixed it. Thanks gents.


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http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_combo62.jpg

https://www.genesismud.org/forums/download/file.php?id=45

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w62/Razor-_2007/IMG_0268.jpg

I don't understand how it couldn't be possible. Or that a relevant fighting style could be created with especially made shields. With specially made shields and training, I have no doubt that a person could make an affective fighter.

Scarab Sages

I had a player who rolled up a shield-fighting character who used the shield as his PRIMARY weapon and a light weapon as his off hand. I actually didn't catch that until he was 3rd level. :P

There was a brief suggestion about dual shielding, but we came to the quick consensus that yes - it would be too silly!


As far as societal examples of dual shielding go, I found this quote:

The Origin of the Inequality of the Social Classes wrote:


We are told that among the Gold Coast natives rich people have the privilege of using ivory blowing horns and of carrying two shields, a favour not allowed to anyone who has not qualified himself by giving feasts to his tribesmen.

Link

My guess is that's either for show, or as a back up but the source doesn't really specify. I could see a rich tribesman in game training himself to use two shields as a show of status or wealth though.


Fastmover wrote:

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_combo62.jpg

https://www.genesismud.org/forums/download/file.php?id=45

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w62/Razor-_2007/IMG_0268.jpg

Why are those shields? They have shields on them, but they look more like weapons, to me.


I find myself in agreement with James and the others. It is silly, I wouldn't allow, and I for one don't allow some of the more idiotic double weapons. I also have removed the spiked chain. A chain fighter? Sure, solid basis in real life history. Adding razor sharp spikes to that chain that you are going to using your body as a fulcrum with? STUPID.

Master Arminas

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