RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Sidebar: don't EVER plan on beating a party senseless and capturing them in game. I understand it can be cool, but it just gets your players angry because they are pretty much being told they have no options. If you manage to knock your party out, then you can consider capture, but starting combat with the intent to do it is a terrible idea. Sorry for rant... bad experience.
The better way to handle this is to get the players on-board from the start. Whenever I have a situation like this, I come to the players ahead of time, out of character, and say, "In order to advance the plot, your characters are going to need to be captured. I promise you will get the chance to escape and get your stuff back, but this is a fight that you are supposed to lose, in order for the story to proceed. Are you OK with that?"
Doing something like that really sets expectations and takes a lot of the sting out of the situation.
. . . but now we're getting off-topic. So, how 'bout them single-class parties? :-)
All arcane party, Level 6, 20 point buy
Member 1 - Vivisectionist/Ranger -> Tank/Scout/Melee Damage dealer
Male Half-Elf Alchemist (Internal Alchemist, Vivisectionist) 4/ Ranger 2
Init +6; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +11
AC 25, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +5 Dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 54 (2d10+4d8+12)
Fort +9, Ref +13, Will +4
Immune sleep; Resist Disease Resistance +2, Elven Immunities, Poison Resistance +2
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Scimitar +12 (1d6+7/18-20/x2) and
Bite (Mutagen, Feral) +7 (1d8+1/20/x2) and
Claw x2 (Mutagen, Feral) +7 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
Special Attacks Bleeding Attack +2, Sneak Attack +2d6
Alchemist (Internal Alchemist, Vivisectionist) Spells Known (CL 4, 5 melee touch, 11 ranged touch):
2 (2/day) Spider Climb (DC 14), Invisibility (DC 14)
1 (4/day) Shield (DC 13), Shield (DC 13), Disguise Self (DC 13), Cure Light Wounds (DC 13)
Str 10, Dex 18/22, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12/10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 21
Feats Brew Potion, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Finesse
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Appraise +7, Climb +5, Disable Device +15, Heal +6, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (Arcana) +7,
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Perception +11,
Perform (Dance) +2, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +15, Swim +5 Modifiers Alchemy +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven
SQ Breath Mastery, Elf Blood, Enemies: Humanoids (Human) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex), Feral Mutagen (Su), Hero Points (1), Mutagen (DC 14) (Su), Poison Use, Track +1, Wild
Empathy +2 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Scimitar, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Feral Mutagen: +4 DEX, -2 WIS, +2 Nat AC, Handy Haversack
A solid scout who can disable everything but magical traps(which he can only spot). A level 10, this build will be putting out 120-140 damage per round with a flank with an AC of around 35. With 2 master summoner's in the party, you should have no shortage of flanking opportunities. Serves as a backup healer since cure light is on spell list.
Member 2 - Debuffer/Face
Male Human Magus (Hexcrafter) 6
Init +5; Senses Perception +4
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 11 (+4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 51 (6d8+12)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +7
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Scimitar +10 (1d6+5/18-20/x2) and
Special Attacks Slumber (DC 15), Spellstrike
Magus (Hexcrafter) Spells Known (CL 6, 4 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
2 (4/day) Scorching Ray (x2), Invisibility (DC 14), Mirror Image (DC 14)
1 (5/day) Chill Touch (DC 13), True Strike (DC 13), Magic Missile (x2), Shield (DC 13)
0 (at will) Daze (DC 12), Dancing Lights, Light, Detect Magic, Ray of Frost
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Arcane Strike, Dazzling Display: Scimitar, Dervish Dance, Disruptive, Weapon Finesse, Weapon
Focus: Scimitar
Traits Fast-Talker, Narrows Survivor
Skills Bluff +9, Intimidate +9, Perception +4, Perform (Dance) +2, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +8, Use
Magic Device +9
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ Arcane Pool (+2) (5/day) (Su), Healing (2d8+6) (Su), Hero Points (1), Spell Combat (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Scimitar, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Ring of Protection, +1, Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Ok damage(50 DPR at level 10), but with the ability to AoE demoralize. Acts as the party face, and This character also acts as the party face via diplomacy or intimidation. This spot could also easily be filled with an archer bard.
Member 3 - Buffer/Damage Dealer/Tank
Male Human Summoner (Master Summoner) 6
Init +2; Senses Perception +4
AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 51 (6d8+12)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +7
Spd 30 ft.
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +7 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Summoning Mastery III (11/day)
Summoner (Master Summoner) Spells Known (CL 6, +4 melee touch, +6 ranged touch):
2 (4/day) Barkskin, Haste (DC 17), Glitterdust (DC 17), Invisibility (DC 17)
1 (6/day) Alarm, Mage Armor (DC 16), Grease (DC 16), Feather Fall (DC 16)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Read Magic (DC 15), Message, Light, Detect Magic, Mage Hand
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18/20
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Augment Summoning, Dodge, Extra Summons, Skill Focus: Sense Motive, Superior Summoning
Traits Caretaker, Suspicious
Skills Heal +2, Perception +4, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +6, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Common
SQ Eidolon Link (Ex), Hero Points (1), Lesser Eidolon, Life Link (Su), Maker's Call (1/day) (Su), Share
Spells with Eidolon (Ex)
Combat Gear Masterwork Crossbow, Light; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance,
+1, Headband of Alluring Charisma, +2, Ring of Protection, +2, Wand of Cure Light Wounds
At level 10, this build can swarm an enemy with multiple attackers and do around 80 damage per round with summoned creatures. This summoner sits backand and focuses on buffing the party. In social situations this character will sit back and watch for anything ususual(sense motive). High UMD allows the buffer to also serve as an incombat medic via want of CWL.
Member 4 - The Wizard Controller
Male Human Wizard 6
Init +5; Senses Perception +1
AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 44 (6d6+12)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +7
Wizard Spells Memorized:
3 (3/day) Stinking Cloud (DC 19), Slow (DC 19), Fly (DC 19), Seek Thoughts (DC 18)
2 (4/day) Web (DC 18), Glitterdust (DC 18), Invisibility (DC 17), See Invisibility (DC 17), Mirror Image (DC
17)
1 (5/day) Identify, Obscuring Mist, Toppling Magic Missile (x2), Mage Armor (DC 17), Vanish (DC 16)
0 (at will) Prestidigitation (DC 15), Message, Light, Ray of Frost
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18/20, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 18
Feats- Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Focus: Transmutation,
Toppling Spell, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Magical Lineage: Magic Missile, Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (Engineering)
+11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +12, Knowledge (Local) +11, Knowledge (Nature)
+12, Knowledge (Nobility) +11, Knowledge (Planes) +12, Knowledge (Religion) +12, Spellcraft +14
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Infernal
SQ Bonded Object: Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (1/day) (Sp), Opposition School: Enchantment, Foresight, Forewarned +3 (Su), Opposition School: Necromancy, Prescience (8/day) (Su)
Combat Gear Masterwork Dagger, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2, Ring of Protection +2
A good collection of hindering spells with all Knowledge skills covered. Can make 3 trip attempts per round via toppling magic missles. At higher levels, sickening or dazzling magic missles will be very annoying. Can deal damage while debuffing and controlling enemies.
Member 5 - Spotter Eidolon
Male Quadruped
NG Small Outsider
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Scent; Perception +17
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+3 Dex, +1 size, +6 natural)
hp 15 ()
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
Defensive Abilities Evasion
Spd 40 ft., Climbing (40 feet)
Melee Bite (Bite) +4 (1d4/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +4 (1d2/20/x2)
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +3; CMB +2; CMD 15 (19 vs. Trip)
Feats Skill Focus: Perception, Skill Focus: Stealth
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +8, Fly +5, Perception +17, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +24
Languages Common
A very alert and very stealthly scout/spotter. Since the summoners are master summoners, their Eidolon are weak, so instead of using them as combat creatures, I use them as skill monkeys who avoid combat. Good luck sneaking up on a party that has a creature with scent, +17 perception, and a +24 stealth at level 6. At higher levels, swap climb for wings for an eye in the sky.
Summary
- Can't disarm magical traps, but has plenty of summons to sacrifice.
- 200+ total damage per round potential at level 10th
- Almost impossible to sneak up on Multiple character with high perception, and 1 creature with scent
- Can literally swarm the enemy with large number of summons to soak a lot of damage
- No major healing, but have plenty of out of combat healing
- Great selection of buffs, debuffs, and control options
I just beat my party down and captured them. I don't really believe in having a plot or talking ahead of time. I think it kills emersion. If the party walks into the lion den, expect them to be eaten by lions.
That said, a captured party can usually escape because prisons can't usually hold super beings. I don't show up to a game though to coddle people who have a sense of entitlement that leads them to feel they should always be winning. If they don't trust me as the gm to run an impartial world, or can't handle losing sometimes, they can find the door.
To avoid off topic:
If it happens, that's fine. Or if you have plans for capture but allow escape. The specific situation I'm referring to was at low level, in a fight against Large creatures (thus we provoked while trying to run) with a higher movement speed, and while we ran/did what damage we could, finally killing the bigger threats, more just pretty much magically showed up and knocked us out. I went over it in my head for a few days, and I came to the conclusion that our party had absolutely zero way of escaping that fight. We hadn't missed anything - the GM decided he wanted to do a prison break scenario and set it up against our will.
A party of wizards (or any full casters) could take that with ease, including with only 10 point buy.Pfft, whatever. Pathfinder is a cake walk. If you play it raw a party of 10 point buy fighters and rogues can wreck half a dozen CR +2 encounters in a day. It isn't a hard game by the book.
As the GM, the fact that I kill someone about once a month owes more to the fact that almost every session they have at least one CR +4 fight or worse.
B!#@%&#&. If your party survives half a dozen APL+2 encounters per day then the GM is holding back. There is no way, no math, to support them doing that.
By the book, they would be out of resources halfway through and party members would die in the last encounters (if not before that).
10 point buy on top of that? Yeah, good luck with low to-hit, low defenses and low hit points.
I'm going to have to quote Trikk:
B&@+#%%%. If your party survives half a dozen APL+2 encounters per day then the GM is holding back. There is no way, no math, to support them doing that.
By the book, they would be out of resources halfway through and party members would die in the last encounters (if not before that).
10 point buy on top of that? Yeah, good luck with low to-hit, low defenses and low hit points.
It doesn't change. The only possible ways for that to happen is for the GM to play with kid gloves or to not understand the rules, or both.
Nope. All it requires is that the players understand exactly what they are capable of. Not that I expect you to agree; this board is notoriously low-op. Irregardless, a party of wizards is mathematically capable of defeating opponents far in excess of what any other class is able to. It's simple math, as you say.
Yeah, it really is. Spellcasters, for the most part, need only a single stat--their casting stat--and they can provide everything else with magic.
I think the people who disagree don't really get what spellcasters can really do and how unfair certain spells really are.
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Nope. All it requires is that the players understand exactly what they are capable of. Not that I expect you to agree; this board is notoriously low-op. Irregardless, a party of wizards is mathematically capable of defeating opponents far in excess of what any other class is able to. It's simple math, as you say.A party of wizards (or any full casters) could take that with ease, including with only 10 point buy.Pfft, whatever. Pathfinder is a cake walk. If you play it raw a party of 10 point buy fighters and rogues can wreck half a dozen CR +2 encounters in a day. It isn't a hard game by the book.
As the GM, the fact that I kill someone about once a month owes more to the fact that almost every session they have at least one CR +4 fight or worse.
B!#@%&#&. If your party survives half a dozen APL+2 encounters per day then the GM is holding back. There is no way, no math, to support them doing that.
By the book, they would be out of resources halfway through and party members would die in the last encounters (if not before that).
10 point buy on top of that? Yeah, good luck with low to-hit, low defenses and low hit points.
I'm going to have to quote Trikk:
It doesn't change. The only possible ways for that to happen is for the GM to play with kid gloves or to not understand the rules, or both.B&@+#%%%. If your party survives half a dozen APL+2 encounters per day then the GM is holding back. There is no way, no math, to support them doing that.
By the book, they would be out of resources halfway through and party members would die in the last encounters (if not before that).
10 point buy on top of that? Yeah, good luck with low to-hit, low defenses and low hit points.
Prove it. 10 point buy, let's start with level 1 and see if you can handle six consecutive CR (or equivalent) 3 encounters. If you can't, then you won't make it to level 2 so the point is moot. Let's see your builds.
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Nope. All it requires is that the players understand exactly what they are capable of. Not that I expect you to agree; this board is notoriously low-op. Irregardless, a party of wizards is mathematically capable of defeating opponents far in excess of what any other class is able to. It's simple math, as you say.Yeah, it really is. Spellcasters, for the most part, need only a single stat--their casting stat--and they can provide everything else with magic.
I think the people who disagree don't really get what spellcasters can really do and how unfair certain spells really are.
I'm well aware of what can and can't be done. So I propose the same challenge as I do to Divergent. Build a party of four first level casters that can handle six consecutive Challenge Rating 3 (or equivalent) encounters. If they can't make it past this, then they will never see level 2 so there is no reason to worry about anything else. Good luck. Remember, 10 point buy.
Alright, sure. I don't have much time now, but I'll post up the characters, and even run the challenges, tomorrow. After I do so, I would like to see you create a party of all non-spellcasters that can take on 6 CR 3 encounters in one day.
You don't get to pick the challenges. You're the player :) The GM gets to pick the challenges, and the order. Since I threw down the gauntlet, I'm the GM.
While I am against dump stats, I know that you've only got one choice: you need them. So that we stick to the concept of this thread, why not make sure they are all the same class. Personally, I don't mind but I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.
I will make sure that the encounters are reasonable, using only the Bestiary and the CRB. I have already chosen them but I am not posting them because I don't want you to build to those encounters.
I see the class disparity as something which manifests as players sitting out of the game, or "pass the rounds" with stuff nobody cares about.
For example, someone playing a low-level caster often feels useless when all his spells are expended... unless they also have some handy class abilities, wands or scrolls.
For example, a non-caster sits out of the game when the group is fortifying a town against an invading horde in 3 days. Casters craft items or use magic to empower the town... what does the fighter do? Or the rogue? Craft a whole dagger?
What does the ranger or druid do in a social situation? They can't meaningfully contribute since they have neither the skills nor the abilities to participate at the level of, say, a bard or even a cleric or rogue.
To me, fixing the disparity means building abilities into every class, so that they can always enjoy playing the game and contribute. The fighter should be able to teach combat drills, giving temporary teamwork feats to participants. Make rules for building or supervising the construction of fortifications, and make it a class ability for the militaristic characters (Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cavalier). Then while the casters are erecting Walls of Stone, crafting magic siege weapons and setting up Glyphs or Warding, the military characters are turning the town and its people into a strong battlefront.
Other game facets are...
- investigation & research
- pitched combat
- ambushing
- ranged combat
- social maneuvering
- tomb raiding / dungeoneering
- exploration
- down time (war prep)
- down time (party contribution)
- down time (prosperity)
I believe every class should have, by mid level, a way to contribute to most or all of these. By high level, definitely all of them. I'm convinced that every class can have an ability which fits their concept, for every facet of the game. Something to make every player feel like their character is awesome in his own way. And these abilities shouldn't be like MMO ripoffs where it's the same mechanic with a different fluff & name.
Alright. I will concede to your DMing, provided I can choose separate classes. I don't really care about this thread, and the point isn't to prove that one class can do this, but that any full spellcaster can.Alright, sure. I don't have much time now, but I'll post up the characters, and even run the challenges, tomorrow. After I do so, I would like to see you create a party of all non-spellcasters that can take on 6 CR 3 encounters in one day.You don't get to pick the challenges. You're the player :) The GM gets to pick the challenges, and the order. Since I threw down the gauntlet, I'm the GM.
While I am against dump stats, I know that you've only got one choice: you need them. So that we stick to the concept of this thread, why not make sure they are all the same class. Personally, I don't mind but I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.
I will make sure that the encounters are reasonable, using only the Bestiary and the CRB. I have already chosen them but I am not posting them because I don't want you to build to those encounters.
Nope. You claimed that a party of wizards at 10 point buy can handle half a dozen CR +2 encounters with ease. I want to see it. I've already selected the 6 encounters. They are nothing special. Certainly nothing out of the ordinary (no customized or template creatures for example). They are straight out of the Bestiary and the Core Rule Book.
NOt a bad party, but the challenge was for 4 single class, all the sae class party.All arcane party, Level 6, 20 point buy
*snip*
I put that out there as a good example of what a balanced and highly optimized party can do. That party is much stronger than you typical Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party. I could make a party of 4 wizard that could beat a standard F/R/W/C party. I would be hard pressed to make a all wizard party that could beat this party.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Update for my guys. I missed the line in the original post explaining that our characters were to be 20 point buy; I created my team with a "standard fantasy" 15-point buy.
Here are updates to the primary characters; animal companions are unaffected.
KROSK THE SHORT-TEMPERED CR 7
Male Half-Orc Druid (Lion Shaman) 8
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +9
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DEFENSE
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AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 24. . (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 83 (8d8+32)
Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Spd 50 ft.
Melee +1 Adamantine Greataxe +11/+6 (1d12+7/20/x3)
Druid (Lion Shaman) Spells Known (CL 8, 10 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
4 (2/day) Atavism (DC 16), Strong Jaw (DC 16)
3 (3/day) Resist Energy, Communal (DC 15), Magic Fang, Greater (DC 15), Resinous Skin (DC 15)
2 (4/day) Restoration, Lesser (DC 14), Barkskin, Frigid Touch, Frigid Touch
1 (5/day) Longstrider (DC 13), Cure Light Wounds (DC 13), Cure Light Wounds (DC 13), Bristle (DC 13), Feather Step (DC 13)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 12), Mending, Stabilize, Detect Poison, Detect Magic
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STATISTICS
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Str 16/18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 12/14, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 24
Feats Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Outflank, Power Attack -2/+4, Precise Strike, Quick Wild Shape
Traits Dirty Fighter, Veteran of Battle
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +10, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +10, Perception +9, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +11, Swim +6
Languages Common, Druidic, Orc
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Lion Wild Shape (4/day) (Su), Lion's Movement (Su), Lion's Totem Transformation (Move Action) (8 minutes/day) (Su), Lion's Totemic Summons (Su), Nature Sense (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Resist Nature's Lure (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +8 (Ex), Wild Shape (2/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape II: Tiny - Large animal), Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge totem animal), Wild Shape (Elemental Body I: Small elemental), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Adamantine Greataxe, +3 Dragonhide Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Holly and mistletoe, Pathfinder's Kit, Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dirty Fighter +1 damage when flanking.
Lion Wild Shape (4/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a lion one or more times per day.
Lion's Movement (Su) +20 enhancement bonus to land speed
Lion's Totem Transformation (Move Action) (8 minutes/day) (Su) At 2nd level, a lion shaman may adopt an aspect of the lion while retaining her normal form. This ability functions as the bear shaman ability, but the druid may select from the following bonuses: movement (+20 enhancement bonus to land speed), sense
Lion's Totemic Summons (Su) At 5th level, a lion shaman may cast summon nature’s ally as a standard action when summoning felines, and these summoned creatures gain temporary hit points equal to her druid level. This ability otherwise functions as the bear shaman ability. She c
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Outflank Flanking bonus increases to +4 if the other flanker also has this feat, and ally gets an AoO if you score a critical hit against the target.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
Quick Wild Shape Wild shape quickly into a less powerful form
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a free action during the surprise round.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (2/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape II: Tiny - Large animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge totem animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body I: Small elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
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ZAMBO SHADOWSTALKER CR 7
Male Gnome Druid 8
CN Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (30 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 17, flat-footed 19. . (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +1 size, +2 deflection)
hp 59 (8d8+16)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +10
Resist fire 5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Silver Curve blade, elven +12/+7 (1d8/18-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +0) +12/+7 (1d6+1/20/x3)
Druid Spells Known (CL 8, 7 melee touch, 11 ranged touch):
4 (2/day) Thorn Body (DC 16), Freedom of Movement (DC 16)
3 (3/day) Neutralize Poison (DC 15), Speak with Plants (DC 15), Hide Campsite (DC 15)
2 (4/day) Barkskin, Cat's Grace (DC 14), Flame Blade, Flame Blade
1 (5/day) Detect Snares and Pits, Speak with Animals (DC 13), Speak with Animals (DC 13), Aspect of the Falcon (DC 13), Liberating Command
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 12), Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Guidance (DC 12), Light
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 17/19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 21
Feats Aspect of the Beast (Night Senses - Darkvision 30'), Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Outflank, Precise Strike, Weapon Finesse
Traits Rapscallion, Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +11, Climb -1, Craft (Weapons) +17, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +12, Fly +11, Perception +15, Ride +3, Stealth +15, Survival +4, Swim -1
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Sylvan
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Magical Linguist, Master Tinker, Nature Sense (Ex), Resist Nature's Lure (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +8 (Ex), Wild Shape (3/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal), Wild Shape (Elemental Body II: Small - Medium elemental), Wild Shape (Plant Shape I: Small - Medium plant creature), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Bane (Humans) (Humans) Arrows (2), +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +0), +1 Silver Curve blade, elven, +2 Ironwood Chain Shirt, Adamantine Arrows (10), Cold Iron Arrows (10), Cold Iron Arrows (10), Silver Arrows (20); Other Gear Artisan's tools, masterwork: Craft (Weapons), Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Handy Haversack (13 @ 29.75 lbs), Holly and mistletoe, Pathfinder's Kit, Ring of Maniacal Devices, Ring of Protection, +2, Thieves' tools, masterwork
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Arcane Mark (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Arcane Mark once per day.
Comprehend Languages (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Comprehend Languages once per day.
Damage Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (30 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Linguist +1 effective level for [language-dependent], glyph, symbol, or writing-related spells. +2 save vs. these spells.
Master Tinker +1 Disable Device and Knowledge (Engineering), proficient with any weapon you have personally crafted.
Message (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Message once per day.
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Outflank Flanking bonus increases to +4 if the other flanker also has this feat, and ally gets an AoO if you score a critical hit against the target.
Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
Read Magic (Magical Linguist) (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Read Magic once per day.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (3/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body II: Small - Medium elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Wild Shape (Plant Shape I: Small - Medium plant creature) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become a plant creature.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
HERLON CURES-THE-SICK CR 7
Male Human (Shoanti) Druid 8
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +16
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 21. . (+8 armor, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 51 (8d8+8)
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +13
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Sickle +8/+3 (1d6+1/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Sling +7/+2 (1d4+2/20/x2)
Druid Spells Known (CL 8, 7 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
4 (3/day) Cure Serious Wounds (DC 20), Spike Stones (DC 19), Reincarnate
3 (4/day) Cup of Dust (DC 18), Cure Moderate Wounds (DC 19), Magic Fang, Greater (DC 18), Spike Growth (DC 18)
2 (4/day) Stone Call, Restoration, Lesser (DC 18), Flaming Sphere (DC 17), Flame Blade
1 (6/day) Goodberry, Produce Flame, Produce Flame, Entangle (DC 16), Cure Light Wounds (DC 17), Cure Light Wounds (DC 17)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 15), Virtue, Mending, Stabilize, Purify Food and Drink (DC 15), Detect Magic
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STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 18/20, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Augment Summoning, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Sunlight Summons, Superior Summoning
Traits Scholar of the Great Beyond: Knowledge (History), Skeptic
Skills Acrobatics -3, Appraise +10, Climb -2, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Handle Animal +10, Heal +18, Knowledge (Geography) +7, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +15, Knowledge (Religion) +7, Perception +16, Ride -3, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +13, Stealth -3, Survival +18, Swim -2
Languages Common, Draconic, Druidic, Gnome, Shoanti
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Many Lives (Ex), Mysterious Stranger +4 (Ex), Nature Sense (Ex), Resist Death's Touch (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +10 (Ex), Wild Shape (2/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape II: Tiny - Large animal), Wild Shape (Elemental Body I: Small elemental)
Combat Gear +1 Sling, +2 Dragonhide Agile Breastplate, Masterwork Sickle; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Healer's kit (10 uses), Holly and mistletoe, Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Pathfinder's Kit, Ring of Protection, +1, Wand of Cure Light Wounds
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Many Lives (Ex) When killed cannot be raised/resurrected, but auto reincarnate in 1 day.
Mysterious Stranger +4 (Ex) Add to the DC of Diplomacy, Knowledge, and Sense Motive to learn about you.
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Resist Death's Touch (Ex) +4 to saves vs death, energy drain, and necromancy effects.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Skeptic +2 save vs. illusion.
Spell Focus: Conjuration Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Sunlight Summons Summoned creatures glow and are immune to blinding and dazzling effects
Superior Summoning When summoning more than one creature, summon an extra one
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Wild Empathy +10 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (2/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape II: Tiny - Large animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body I: Small elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
MORAVEL (AKA THRUSH OF DEATH) CR 7
Male Elf Druid 8
NN Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +1; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +14
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 20. . (+5 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 51 (8d8)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +13
Defensive Abilities Lightning Lord (8/day); Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +0) +6/+1 (1d8-1/20/x3)
Special Attacks Storm Burst (8/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Lightning Lord (8/day), Storm Burst (8/day)
Druid Spells Known (CL 8, 4 melee touch, 7 ranged touch):
4 (3/day) Dispel Magic, Flame Strike (DC 20), Age Resistance, Lesser (DC 19), Sleet Storm
3 (4/day) Call Lightning (DC 19), Call Lightning (DC 19), Call Lightning (DC 19), Aqueous Orb (DC 18), Dominate Animal (DC 18)
2 (4/day) Burning Gaze (DC 18), Owl's Wisdom (DC 17), Barkskin, Heat Metal (DC 17), Fog Cloud
1 (6/day) Endure Elements (DC 16), Obscuring Mist, Produce Flame, Faerie Fire, Cure Light Wounds (DC 16), Ray of Sickening (DC 16), Ray of Sickening (DC 16)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 15), Stabilize, Read Magic (DC 15), Create Water, Detect Magic, Light
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STATISTICS
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Str 6, Dex 10/12, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 18/20, Cha 16
Base Atk +6; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Natural Spell, Spell Focus: Evocation, Voice of the Sibyl, Wild Speech
Traits Mathematical Prodigy: Knowledge (Arcana), Scholar of the Great Beyond: Knowledge (Planes)
Skills Acrobatics -2, Appraise +7, Bluff +4, Climb -5, Diplomacy +12, Escape Artist -2, Fly +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (Nature) +12, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Perception +14, Perform (Oratory) +8, Ride -2, Spellcraft +14, Stealth -2, Survival +14, Swim -5
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Druid Domain: Weather, Elven Magic, Nature Sense (Ex), Resist Nature's Lure (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy +11 (Ex), Wild Shape (3/day) (Su), Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal), Wild Shape (Elemental Body II: Small - Medium elemental), Wild Shape (Plant Shape I: Small - Medium plant creature), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Ironwood Buckler, +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +0), +2 Leaf Armor; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Handy Haversack (1 @ 22 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Pathfinder's Kit, Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Druid Domain: Weather Granted Powers: With power over storm and sky, you can call down the wrath of the gods upon the world below.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Lightning Lord (8/day) (Sp) Call down lightning bolts against your enemies.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Spell Focus: Evocation Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Storm Burst (1d6+4) (8/day) (Sp) 30' Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+4 nonlethal damage and inflicts a -2 to hit penalty for 1r.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural suroundings.
Voice of the Sibyl Gain bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform (oratory) checks
Wild Empathy +11 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (3/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body II: Small - Medium elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Wild Shape (Plant Shape I: Small - Medium plant creature) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become a plant creature.
Wild Speech Speak while in wild shape
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
I saw Rob's notes. Rob picked 6 creatures immune to sleep. Get ready for zombies and elves :)
Elves aren't immune to color spray, and disrupt undead x4 would make any low level undead encounter easy and consume no resources.
Also, wizards can take a wand as an arcane bond. I know it's suboptimal normally, but in a one-shot I'd say the benefits outweigh the chances of getting one broken or stolen.
With a 10 point buy, you can still push an elven wizard's INT to 20 and DEX to 14 without dumping CON. (7 STR, 14 DEX, 10 CON, 20 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA.) You can push their initiative to +9 (I'd choose diviners for this). Color spray x4, grease x4, bonded spell x4, wand of summon monster I x3, wand of mage armor x1.
I think they'd make it through 6 encounters.
Refusal to limit myself even further, while under yet more ridiculous handicaps, is not admittance of defeat. 1st level is already the absolute weakest point for spellcasters, so being forced to use only a single class is yet another handicap on a combat that isn't going to reflect spellcasters at their strongest anyways.Nope. You claimed that a party of wizards at 10 point buy can handle half a dozen CR +2 encounters with ease. I want to see it. I've already selected the 6 encounters. They are nothing special. Certainly nothing out of the ordinary (no customized or template creatures for example). They are straight out of the Bestiary and the Core Rule Book.Agreed. Changing it to "full caster" now when the post specifically said a party full of wizards is admitting a party full of wizards can't do it. Had it only said a party of full casters, I may have agreed, 10 point buy is hard, but battle clerics are pretty solid at low level, or druids or alchemists. . . I wonder, how hard would this even be for 4 dhampir negative energy channeling clerics.
So you made a claim that you now say is ridiculous. I chose 1st level because if your uberwizards can't make it past 1st level, then no other level matters. You claimed that they could handle half a dozen CR +2 encounters consecutively, regularly.
I'll even be nice and post the six encounters before you create your builds if you would like.
I saw Rob's notes. Rob picked 6 creatures immune to sleep. Get ready for zombies and elves :)Elves aren't immune to color spray, and disrupt undead x4 would make any low level undead encounter easy and consume no resources.
Also, wizards can take a wand as an arcane bond. I know it's suboptimal normally, but in a one-shot I'd say the benefits outweigh the chances of getting one broken or stolen.
With a 10 point buy, you can still push an elven wizard's INT to 20 and DEX to 14 without dumping CON. (7 STR, 14 DEX, 10 CON, 20 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA.) You can push their initiative to +9 (I'd choose diviners for this). Color spray x4, grease x4, bonded spell x4, wand of summon monster I x3, wand of mage armor x1.
I think they'd make it through 6 encounters.
He was trying to be funny. I chose no undead and only one elf. I also did not choose 6 creatures. I chose 6 EL+2 encounters.
Uh, what? no other level than 1st matters? I don't think you understand exactly what I'm saying. First level is the least indicative of how the rest of the game plays, since at that level there are so few hit points and resources in general to utilize that nearly every combat is a game of rocket tag. I would actually say that there is no level less important than 1st for the purposes of. . . Well, anything.
For the purposes of demonstrating how incredibly awesome a party of 4 wizards is and how well they can always, with ease, half a dozen handle EL+2 encounters, sure it is all that really matters. If they can't handle approximately 2 days of adventuring to make it to level 2, then it doesn't matter how awesome they are at level 2. They didn't live that long.
You said the math was there. I want to see it. You didn't say that the math was there for all levels higher than 1.
My four wizards..
Wizard 1: Metal Scroll Master, buffs str/con mostly over a little int. Obviously suppose to go EK ASP.
Wizard 2: (life) Necromancer. Focuses primary on buffing the party. Uses infernal Healing mostly.
Wizard 3: Controller - I'm not too sure on specifics here, but this guy would be primary control. Once reduced to 0 level spells probally would use a xbow.
Wizard 4: Blaster. Probably uses Evocation school. This guy is useful even if he is reduced to casting cantrips all day. If I could, might mix into rogue for sneak attack damage.. But needs a better PrC to do that with.
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Uh, what? no other level than 1st matters? I don't think you understand exactly what I'm saying. First level is the least indicative of how the rest of the game plays, since at that level there are so few hit points and resources in general to utilize that nearly every combat is a game of rocket tag. I would actually say that there is no level less important than 1st for the purposes of. . . Well, anything.For the purposes of demonstrating how incredibly awesome a party of 4 wizards is and how well they can always, with ease, half a dozen handle EL+2 encounters, sure it is all that really matters. If they can't handle approximately 2 days of adventuring to make it to level 2, then it doesn't matter how awesome they are at level 2. They didn't live that long.
You said the math was there. I want to see it. You didn't say that the math was there for all levels higher than 1.
Yeah, you know what? I'm done trying to convince you. You're pretty clearly set in your ways, and I doubt any evidence I could present you with will change your mind about the disparity in power between spellcasters and martial characters.
Lets make it a bit clearer; 1st level sucks. Daily resources, which include HP, are incredibly low. Most battles tend to be decided by who wins initiative, and at this level, yes, melee characters tend to be best, because they have more endurance (for this and the next level only, I stress). After about level 3, however, the rocket tag abides, and spellcaster resources improve in both quality and quantity.
Frankly, any experiment done at 1st level simply has no bearing on any other aspect of the game, since it is not representative of the resource management or abilities of classes later in the game.
Lastly, not all characters begin at level 1, and those that do usually don't have to face a series of encounters significantly above their character level.
So, basically, this whole thing is a sham.
You made a claim and are now unwilling or unable to back it up and I'm the one set in my ways? I asked you to show me. You know it can't be done and instead of simply saying that you were wrong, you're going to blame me.
Oh, and all characters begin at level 1. Just because you don't play them there doesn't mean that they didn't start at the beginning.
I also was not making any claims about non-casters. Not at all. I asked you to put up. That's it. I know a party of four wizards, even at first level, with 15 point buy can do fine against CR appropriate encounters. I challenged you on the 10 point buy taking on six CR+2 encounters consecutively with ease. You know as well as I do, that it isn't plausible that's why you aren't willing to accept the challenge that you laid forth.
For the record, here are the encounters I chose (by posting their complete stats, no one needs to look them up if they choose to accept the challenge):
CE Tiny Dragon (Water)
Init +7; Senses Blindsense (60 feet), Darkvision (120 feet), Dragon Senses, Low-Light Vision; Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 15. . (+3 Dex, +2 size, +3 natural)
hp 30 (4d12+4)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +4
Immune acid, paralysis, sleep
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OFFENSE
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Spd 60 ft., Flight (100 feet, Average), Swimming (60 feet)
Melee Bite (Dragon, Black, Wyrmling) +6 (1d4/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Dragon, Black, Wyrmling) +6 x2 (1d3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +6 (1/20/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Breath Weapon (30-ft. line, 2d6 acid, every 1d4 ro
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STATISTICS
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Str 11, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 15 (19 vs. Trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Stealth
Skills Fly +14, Handle Animal +3, Perception +7, Stealth +21, Swim +15
Languages Draconic
SQ Water Breathing (Ex)
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ECOLOGY
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Environment Warm marshes
Organization Solitary
Treasure Triple
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Blindsense (60 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Breath Weapon (30-ft. line, 2d6 acid, every 1d4 rounds, Ref half) (DC 13) Using a breath weapon is a standard action. A dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, even if it possesses more than one breath weapon. A breath weapon always starts at an intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction
Darkvision (120 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dragon Senses (Ex) See four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light.
Flight (100 feet, Average) You can fly!
Immunity to Acid You are immune to acid damage.
Immunity to Paralysis You are immune to paralysis.
Immunity to Sleep You are immune to sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Swimming (60 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Water Breathing (Ex) A black dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its Breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.
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BOFAK
Male Dwarf Fighter 1
CE Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +0; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +2 shield)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +2 (1d4+1/20/x2) and
. . Axe, Throwing +2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Battleaxe +2 (1d8+1/20/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 13, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 12
Feats Iron Will, Power Attack -1/+2
Skills Acrobatics -7, Climb -6, Escape Artist -7, Fly -7, Intimidate +2, Perception +2, Ride -7, Stealth -7, Swim -6
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Greed, Hardy +2, Hatred, Slow and Steady, Stability, Stonecunning +2
Combat Gear Axe, Throwing (3), Battleaxe, Chainmail, Shield, Heavy Steel; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Axe, Throwing - 0/3
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
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HOCUS POCUS
Male Elf Wizard 1
LE Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10. . (+1 Dex)
hp 7 (1d6)
Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dagger -1 (1d4-1/19-20/x2) and
. . Quarterstaff -1 (1d6-1/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +1 (1d8-1/20/x3)
Wizard Spells Known (CL 1, -1 melee touch, 1 ranged touch):
1 (2/day) Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 13)
0 (at will) Bleed (DC 12), Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 12)
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STATISTICS
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Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 10
Feats Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Skills Concentration: Wizard +3, Diplomacy +0, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Perception +3, Spellcraft +6
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Orc
SQ +2 to Fortitude saves, Elven Magic, Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Hand of the Apprentice (5/day) (Su), Share Spells with Familiar
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Dagger, Longbow, Quarterstaff; Other Gear Scroll: Scorching Ray
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Arrows - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Hand of the Apprentice (5/day) (Su) - 0/5
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+2 to Fortitude saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Hand of the Apprentice (5/day) (Su) Throw the melee weapon you are holding 5/day.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
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ARCANE FAMILIAR
Male Rat
NN Tiny Magical Beast
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 13. . (+2 Dex, +2 size, +1 natural)
hp 3 (1d10)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 15 ft., Climbing (15 feet), Swimming (15 feet)
Melee Bite (Rat) +5 (1d3-4/20/x2)
Space 2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
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STATISTICS
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Str 2, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 2
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 7 (11 vs. Trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +10, Diplomacy -3, Fly +6, Perception +5, Spellcraft -1, Stealth +18, Swim +10
Languages
SQ Improved Evasion (Ex)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Climbing (15 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Swimming (15 feet) You have a Swim speed.
PASTOR MARK
Male Human Cleric 1
CE Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +2
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 14, touch 10, flat-footed 14. . (+4 armor)
hp 8 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +3
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Greataxe +1 (1d12+1/20/x3) and
. . Javelin -3 (1d6+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Touch of Chaos (4/day), Touch of Evil 1 rounds (4/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Touch of Chaos (4/day), Touch of Evil 1 rounds (4/day)
Cleric Spells Known (CL 1, 1 melee touch, 0 ranged touch):
1 (2/day) Protection from Good (DC 12), Bane (DC 12), Magic Weapon (DC 12)
0 (at will) Resistance (DC 11), Detect Magic, Guidance (DC 11)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 11
Feats Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -2, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Heal +5, Perception +2, Ride -3, Spellcraft +3, Stealth -3, Swim -2
Languages Common
SQ Aura (Ex), Channel Negative Energy 1d6 (3/day) (DC 10) (Su), Cleric Domain: Chaos, Cleric Domain: Evil, Spontaneous Casting
Combat Gear Chain Shirt, Greataxe, Javelin (3); Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Channel Negative Energy 1d6 (3/day) (DC 10) (Su) - 0/3
Javelin - 0/3
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Touch of Chaos (4/day) (Sp) - 0/4
Touch of Evil 1 rounds (4/day) (Sp) - 0/4
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Channel Negative Energy 1d6 (3/day) (DC 10) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Cleric Domain: Chaos Granted Powers: Your touch infuses life and weapons with chaos, and you revel in all things anarchic.
Cleric Domain: Evil Granted Powers: You are sinister and cruel, and have wholly pledged your soul to the cause of evil.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Touch of Chaos (4/day) (Sp) With a melee touch attack, target takes the lower of 2d20 for each d20 roll for 1 round.
Touch of Evil 1 rounds (4/day) (Sp) With a melee touch attack, target is sickened and counted as good-aligned for the purpose of [Evil] spells.
--------------------
SLICK
Male Halfling Rogue 1
NE Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 14. . (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 8 (1d8)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Shortsword +1 (1d4/19-20/x2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +1d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 11
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 11
Feats Improved Initiative, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +4, Climb +5, Escape Artist +5, Fly +3, Perception +6, Ride +1, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +0, Stealth +9, Swim -1
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ Fearless, Trapfinding +1
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Shortsword, Sling, Studded Leather; Other Gear Wand of Enlarge Person
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Wand of Enlarge Person - 0/10
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +1 +1 to find or disable traps.
--------------------
Male Kobold Warrior 1
LE Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +5
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 14. . (+2 armor, +1 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural)
hp 5 (1d10)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -1
Weakness Light Sensitivity
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Spear +1 (1d6-1/20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +1 (1d2-1/20/x2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d3-1/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB -1; CMD 10
Feats Skill Focus: Perception
Skills Craft (Traps) +4, Fly +3, Perception +5, Stealth +5
Languages Draconic
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (10), Leather, Sling, Spear;
--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Temperate underground or deep forest
Organization Solitary, gang (2-4), nest (5-30 plus equal number of noncombatants, 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), or tribe (31-300 plus 35% noncombatants, 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 20 adults, 2 lieutenants of 4th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, and 5-16 dire rats)
Treasure NPC gear (leather armor, spear, sling, other treasure)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as they remain in bright light.
--------------------
ORC CR 1/3
Male Orc Warrior 1
CE Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +0; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception -1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 13. . (+3 armor)
hp 7 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -1
Defensive Abilities Ferocity
Weakness Light Sensitivity
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Falchion +5 (2d4+4/18-20/x2) and
. . Javelin +0 (1d6+3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Focus: Falchion
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +2, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +2, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Swim +2
Languages Common, Orc
Combat Gear Falchion, Javelin (4), Studded Leather;
--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Temperate hills, mountains, or underground
Organization Solitary, gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 sergeants of 3rd level and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 sergeant of 3rd level per 10 adults, 1 lieutenant of 5th level per 20 adults, and 1 leader of 7th level per 30 adults)
Treasure NPC gear (studded leather armor, falchion, 4 javelins, other treasure)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Ferocity (Ex) You can stay active while dying.
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as they remain in bright light.
--------------------
SPIDER SWARM CR 1
Male Spider Swarm
NN Diminutive Vermin (Swarm)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Tremorsense (30 feet); Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 14. . (+3 Dex, +4 size)
hp 9 (2d8)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0
Immune flanking, staggered, critical hits, mind-affecting, precision damage, Swarm Traits
Weakness Vulnerability to Area Effects
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft., Climbing (20 feet)
Melee Unarmed Strike +0 (--5/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Distraction (DC 11), Poison: Swarm - injury (DC 11), Swarm Attack (1d6)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 1, Dex 17, Con 10, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 5 (can't be Bull Rushedcan't be Grappledcan't be Tripped)
Feats
Skills Climb +11, Fly +9, Perception +4, Stealth +15, Swim +3
Languages
--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Any
Organization Solitary, pair, tangle (3-6 swarms) or colony (11-20 swarms)
Treasure None
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Climbing (20 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Distraction (DC 11) (Ex) A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifie
Immune to Flanking You are immune to flanking.
Immune to Staggered Immune to staggered.
Immunity to Critical Hits You are immune to Critical Hits
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Immunity to Precision Damage You are immune to Precision Damage
Poison: Swarm - injury (DC 11) (Ex) Poison deals 1d2 STR damage, 1/round for 2 rds, cure 1 save.
Swarm Attack (1d6) Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for c
Swarm Traits Imm to effects targeting number of creatures (unless mind affect vs hive mind).
Tremorsense (30 feet) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Vulnerability to Area Effects You are vulnerable (+50% damage) to spells and effects that damage an area.
--------------------
SPIDER, GIANT CR 1
Male Spider, Giant
NN Medium Vermin
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Tremorsense (60 feet); Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11. . (+3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 16 (3d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
Immune mind-affecting
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft., Climbing (30 feet)
Melee Bite (Spider, Giant) +2 (1d6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Poison: Bite - injury (DC 14), Web (3 HP) (8/day) (DC 12)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats
Skills Climb +24, Perception +4, Stealth +7 Modifiers +4 Perception in webs, +4 Stealth in webs
Languages
--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Any
Organization Solitary, pair, or colony (3-8)
Treasure Incidental
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 Perception in webs +4 Perception in webs
+4 Stealth in webs (Ex) You gain a bonus to Stealth Checks under the listed conditions.
Climbing (30 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Poison: Bite - injury (DC 14) (Ex) Poison deals 1d2 STR damage, 1/round for 4 rds, cure 1 save.
Tremorsense (60 feet) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Web (3 HP) (8/day) (DC 12) (Ex) You can set or toss webbing.
--------------------
TRAPPER CR 3
Male Human Ranger 4
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14. . (+3 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 30 (4d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Axe, Throwing +6 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Battleaxe +7 (1d8+2/20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +6 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +1) +7 (1d8+1/20/x3)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 1, 6 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
1 (1/day) Charm Animal (DC 12)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +6; CMD 19
Feats Deadly Aim -2/+4, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility, Point Blank Shot
Skills Climb +10, Craft (Traps) +9, Handle Animal +6, Heal +8, Perception +7, Profession (Trapper) +8, Ride +6, Stealth +8, Survival +8, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex), Track +2, Wild Empathy +4 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Axe, Throwing (2), Masterwork Battleaxe, Masterwork Buckler, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +1), Masterwork Studded Leather; Other Gear Artisan's tools, masterwork: Craft (Traps), Climber's kit, Healer's kit (10 uses)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Animals.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Terrains: Forest (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Forest.
Track +2 +2 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
--------------------
BADGER CR 2
Male Badger
NN Small Animal
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +5
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 13. . (+3 Dex, +1 size, +2 natural)
hp 13 (+4)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft., Burrowing (10 feet)
Melee Bite (Badger) +2 (1d4/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Badger) +3 x2 (1d3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Rage (6 rounds/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 13 (17 vs. Trip)
Feats Weapon Focus: Claw
Skills Fly +5, Perception +5, Stealth +11
Languages
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Burrowing (10 feet) You have a Burrow speed.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Nothing I chose was specifically meant to stop wizards and are all very reasonable encounters, at CR+2. The only thing I would mention is that the party would knowingly be headed into a watery swamp with clear skies but there may be some night or underground encounters.
I'll do some work on a Lv1 group of Bards over the weekend and see what I can come up with. Should be interesting.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Bob, I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with some of your points. First, I do think that 1st level is not necessarily representative of the game as a whole. Characters have very low hit points relative to the amount of damage being thrown around, and with the characters' modifiers so small in relation to the d20 roll, the game is very much based on luck. In later levels, things start to even out a bit, as the modifiers on the d20 become more important than the die roll itself, and characters are able to take a few its before going down.
Also, while it is true that in the game world, a character must survive 1st level before advancing, that doesn't necessarily mean that she does so by fighting six consecutive CR+2 encounters. After all, there are plenty of 2nd and 3rd level commoners running around, and I'm pretty sure that's not how they level up! They go about their daily lives, and occasionally face a CR-appropriate threat (a mad dog, say, or a bad harvest). After a few years, they have amassed enough XP to gain a level. That way is much more survivable, though it does take longer.
Besides, who's to say that the Party of Wizards didn't start out fighting CR-appropriate dire rats with a group of Fighters, and only struck out on their own once they got to 6th or 8th level? Just because they are a party of four wizards by level 8 doesn't mean they formed that team at level 1.
Still, it's an interesting challenge. I'll see if I can find the time this weekend to run my druids through those encounters.
Characters have very low hit points relative to the amount of damage being thrown around, and with the characters' modifiers so small in relation to the d20 roll, the game is very much based on luck.
I would like to point out that, in a game where just about everything is determined by rolling dice, this is true for every level. :)
Bob, I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with some of your points. First, I do think that 1st level is not necessarily representative of the game as a whole. Characters have very low hit points relative to the amount of damage being thrown around, and with the characters' modifiers so small in relation to the d20 roll, the game is very much based on luck. In later levels, things start to even out a bit, as the modifiers on the d20 become more important than the die roll itself, and characters are able to take a few its before going down.
I never claimed that it was representative of the game as a whole. The claim was that they could handle it. Here is the original claim by crainwings:
Pfft, whatever. Pathfinder is a cake walk. If you play it raw a party of 10 point buy fighters and rogues can wreck half a dozen CR +2 encounters in a day. It isn't a hard game by the book.
As the GM, the fact that I kill someone about once a month owes more to the fact that almost every session they have at least one CR +4 fight or worse.
and then the follow up claim by Divergent:
A party of wizards (or any full casters) could take that with ease, including with only 10 point buy.
and
Nope. All it requires is that the players understand exactly what they are capable of. Not that I expect you to agree; this board is notoriously low-op. Irregardless, a party of wizards is mathematically capable of defeating opponents far in excess of what any other class is able to. It's simple math, as you say.
and here's what mplindustries had to say:
Yeah, it really is. Spellcasters, for the most part, need only a single stat--their casting stat--and they can provide everything else with magic.
I think the people who disagree don't really get what spellcasters can really do and how unfair certain spells really are.
So they're claims are that this is something that can consistently be done. There are no qualifications of: "once you pass level X, expect wizards to be able to handle it." They made blanket statements. I want to see these wizards make it to level 2. That's all I've been asking. mplindustries is the only one who added a caveat of "for the most part."
Also, while it is true that in the game world, a character must survive 1st level before advancing, that doesn't necessarily mean that she does so by fighting six consecutive CR+2 encounters. After all, there are plenty of 2nd and 3rd level commoners running around, and I'm pretty sure that's not how they level up! They go about their daily lives, and occasionally face a CR-appropriate threat (a mad dog, say, or a bad harvest). After a few years, they have amassed enough XP to gain a level. That way is much more survivable, though it does take longer.
We're not talking about commoners, we're talking about adventurers.
Besides, who's to say that the Party of Wizards didn't start out fighting CR-appropriate dire rats with a group of Fighters, and only struck out on their own once they got to 6th or 8th level? Just because they are a party of four wizards by level 8 doesn't mean they formed that team at level 1.
Their claim is that a party of wizards can do this consistently. I want to see a party of wizards do this consistently, starting at the beginning.
Still, it's an interesting challenge. I'll see if I can find the time this weekend to run my druids through those encounters.
Keep in mind that you need to be using 10 point buy and that you won't get to rest to prepare spells again for the next encounter since these all must take place in the same day so you won't be headed back to town to resupply.
I'm sure that they can handle one of them. I think that they could get lucky enough to handle two. I don't see them making it through more than that though. You can deal with the encounters in any order you like. Remember that the NPCs will use their magic items, including healing potions, if they are able. You are free to loot the NPCs dead bodies and use their gear, just as you could in any session. The dragon does not have any magic items but does have a bunch of gold which I did not include since it won't have any bearing on the upcoming battles.
I have to agree that forcing the challenge at level 1 is kind of BS. In 20 years of running D&D, I've started PCs at level 1 only a rare handful of times.
That said, if I had to make a party of four wizards to survive at first level, they'd absolutely all have that rich family trait and they'd have either warrior hirelings or wands with Mount (2 hour duration tanks!).
I actually would not be afraid of any of those encounters you chose except the Spider and Swarm, using just the standard (winning) array of Color Sprays and Sleeps. Nothing in there has a good Will save--the Cleric even only has +3.
The spiders, though, damn. They would probably kick a typical low level wizard's ass, due to being both immune to mind affecting effects and not undead. They would have to rely on panicky wand Mounts kicking and/or Hirelings (possibly backed up with a Charm Person--even a Wand of Charm Person if necessary).
Of course, on top of that, my personal preference is always for Sorcerers anyway--I like the longer term strategic thinking involved in spell choice than the shorter term "what do I have to cast right friggin' now" tactics of the Wizard.
I don't think Sorcerers are actually better than Wizards (at later levels, it's quite the contrary), though, maybe, for this first level challenge, they are. Their Charms would work better, they'd have way more Sleep/Color Sprays available, and they'd be very likely to actually have some kind of blasty option from their bloodline powers that could kill the swarm without difficulty.
Edit: And for the record, as you quoted, I said "spellcasters," which is to say, any class capable of casting, not just Wizards, which I recognize as eventually the most powerful, but certainly not my favorite or the ones I have the most knowledge of.
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Well, that's like saying if you can't swing a sword hard you can't be a fighter; when did combat become an exercise in rolling dice?
Let's be honest and say a fair number of gamers are socially underdeveloped, but want to play characters that are much better at interaction. Dice let them do it, just as they give them superhuman agility and massive strength.
Roleplaying is there for developing your character and working through things, but how they are perceived should be dictated by the dice. So if I make an interesting speech the DM may give me a circumstance modifier (like knowing how to position myself in combat); but at the end of the day if I roll a 1 and/or have a poor diplomacy skill people will review me as boorish and annoying.
I have to agree that forcing the challenge at level 1 is kind of BS. In 20 years of running D&D, I've started PCs at level 1 only a rare handful of times.
I generally start the party at level 1 and have done so for 32 years. It's a challenging time for the party and I have found that it helps them focus more on role playing and tactics. They end up with stronger personalities and characters. That's my experience and certainly not indicative of how even the majority of groups work. It's just what I have seen and experienced.
That said, if I had to make a party of four wizards to survive at first level, they'd absolutely all have that rich family trait and they'd have either warrior hirelings or wands with Mount (2 hour duration tanks!).
So it would no longer be a party of 4 wizards. That only supports my point.
I actually would not be afraid of any of those encounters you chose except the Spider and Swarm, using just the standard (winning) array of Color Sprays and Sleeps. Nothing in there has a good Will save--the Cleric even only has +3.
Remember that you would have to run through the whole gauntlet. You wouldn't be dealing with just one encounter and calling it a day. You would be expending your resources as you go. The best Will save is the dragon at +4. Of course it also has an initiative bonus of +7, which will be hard to match if the wizards are stuck in 10 point buy.
The spiders, though, damn. They would probably kick a typical low level wizard's ass, due to being both immune to mind affecting effects and not undead. They would have to rely on panicky wand Mounts kicking and/or Hirelings (possibly backed up with a Charm Person--even a Wand of Charm Person if necessary).
The swarm may be something they can handle with some burning hands or rays of frost. It only has 9 hit points. The giant spider would be a bit more difficult, but I'm sure that a clever group can figure it out. I'm not sure what I would do.
Of course, on top of that, my personal preference is always for Sorcerers anyway--I like the longer term strategic thinking involved in spell choice than the shorter term "what do I have to cast right friggin' now" tactics of the Wizard.
For this challenge, by all means, bring on the sorcerers. They will probably do better since they have more uses of their spells per day and it might make a huge difference.
I don't think Sorcerers are actually better than Wizards (at later levels, it's quite the contrary), though, maybe, for this first level challenge, they are. Their Charms would work better, they'd have way more Sleep/Color Sprays available, and they'd be very likely to actually have some kind of blasty option from their bloodline powers that could kill the swarm without difficulty.
Let's see what they can do. I think a party of sorcerers would be interesting.
Edit: And for the record, as you quoted, I said "spellcasters," which is to say, any class capable of casting, not just Wizards, which I recognize as eventually the most powerful, but certainly not my favorite or the ones I have the most knowledge of.
You are correct, and I should have caught that. I apologize for misrepresenting your position. If you want to see what a group of clerics or oracles can do, I'm up for that as well. I just want to see if a party of 4 same class casters, at 10 point buy, can handle 6 CR+2 encounters per day with ease.
Or you just suck at negotiating but are otherwise a pretty cool guy.
Or you could just put ranks in it and not care about whether or not you are going to get a +3 bonus.
I'd agree with you if characters were a little more customizable. They just aren't good enough. Fighter's really can't be diplomatic - or they can but then you end up spending traits and feats on it, which could have been spent on one of the million other things fighters can't do but should be able to, like stealth, perception, knowledge nobility... or whatever else.Well, that's like saying if you can't swing a sword hard you can't be a fighter; when did combat become an exercise in rolling dice?
Let's be honest and say a fair number of gamers are socially underdeveloped, but want to play characters that are much better at interaction. Dice let them do it, just as they give them superhuman agility and massive strength.
Roleplaying is there for developing your character and working through things, but how they are perceived should be dictated by the dice. So if I make an interesting speech the DM may give me a circumstance modifier (like knowing how to position myself in combat); but at the end of the day if I roll a 1 and/or have a poor diplomacy skill people will review me as boorish and annoying.
Why must fighters be good at those things? What does it mean to be good at those things? Knowledge skills are flat DCs so it's easier to be good at things like that. Opposed checks are obviously harder, but what does it mean to be good at them?
The fighter in my current Age of Worms campaign has the second highest Diplomacy and that's only because the paladin has a higher Charisma. He doesn't feel like he's having a hard time being a charismatic fighter. He even has enough ranks in Knowledge (nobility) to be able to Take 10 and answer many of the harder questions. It took very little investment.
I think that too often people assume that a class should be able to do something that it was never intended to do. For a stealthy fighter, you should either consider playing another class (rogue, barbarian, ranger) or consider multiclassing. That's why the rule exists. So you can play what you want to play. There are also probably some archetypes that would allow you to play the stealthy fighter as well.
A fighter has enough feats to be able to spend two or three on non-combat feats and do just fine. As for the traits, that's exactly what they are there for: to customize your character beyond what the classes and archetypes allow.
I have found that the very high majority of the time that people have a problem with a particular class not being able to handle a particular skill it's because the GM doesn't set proper DCs, which is unfortunately not explained in any of the Pathfinder books. It was in DnD, but for some reason it was not added into Pathfinder.
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Well fighters aren't made to do all of those things; to allow them to do so devalues skill users more than the game mechanics do. Fighters are specialized masters of following orders and slaying things. They may not be the best scouts, and certainly aren't stealthy with their heavy armor, but they hit hard. If you want a skill-fighter, rangers and barbarians give you better options, as does a high-strength rogue.
So if you want a skill-user and good talker, the game gives you many options. Want to hit things? That is there too. For the all-fighter party there are traits for getting diplomacy as a class skill, and I've long believed trip-based (and therefore high-int) fighters are the most powerful the game offers anyway.
A fighter who has the skills to do things other than fight devalues skill users... That doesn't sound right. Does he devalue the rogue when Stealthing, the Bard when using Knowledge(Nobility)? Considering all the nice little bonuses "skill users" get to their skills, I don't think so.
So it would no longer be a party of 4 wizards. That only supports my point.
Well, I think it depends on what point you're trying to prove.
If you're trying to prove that a Wizard needs a tank to survive (especially at low levels), then you're pretty spot on in your assessment.
If you're trying to prove that being a Figther is as powerful and useful to the group as being a Wizard is, well, I think you'd lose that one. You can hire (or later, summon) an NPC to do the same thing, since all that's really needed is a mobile sack of hit points to take up space, eat some hits, and finish off the "controlled" enemies casters leave in their wake. Congratulations, Fighter player, you fill the same role as a hireling/summon!
Remember that you would have to run through the whole gauntlet. You wouldn't be dealing with just one encounter and calling it a day. You would be expending your resources as you go. The best Will save is the dragon at +4. Of course it also has an initiative bonus of +7, which will be hard to match if the wizards are stuck in 10 point buy.
I think I misunderstood and assumed the Wizards would have ample time, like in a real scenario. They could use familiars to scout ahead and determine what spells they need for the upcoming encounter, and possibly retreat and regroup if necessary.
The Dragon looks more dangerous now, but he's only got 2 or 3 more Initiative than a Wizard with Improved Initiative (and less than a Sorcerer with Improved Initiative and that trait that uses Cha for initiative), and he's fully susceptible to Color Spray. I would expect at least one of the four to beat him in initiative.
The swarm may be something they can handle with some burning hands or rays of frost. It only has 9 hit points. The giant spider would be a bit more difficult, but I'm sure that a clever group can figure it out. I'm not sure what I would do.
If I was being honest about it, I would never have a caster prep or learn either of those spells (or actually any area damage spells until at least Flaming Sphere but probably Fireball), so that swarm becomes a hell of a lot more dangerous.
For this challenge, by all means, bring on the sorcerers. They will probably do better since they have more uses of their spells per day and it might make a huge difference.
I'm going to be honest here: I'm really lazy. I love having these sorts of theoretical discussions and I really love looking up rules and creating specific combos--but when it comes to actually creating a party of characters? I'm honestly more likely to just concede that you're right than actually do that sort of work, sorry.