Monks generally have lower ACs, big bruiser type enemies can give them real difficulties. You might also try big things that grapple/trip them to keep the monks from being able to flury all the time or perhaps highly mobile enemies. Both of those play into features of the monk (manuever bonuses and high mobility) but get you away from the heavy damage dealing aspect of the class, flurry of blows.
a caster ...
you probably want more info, so do I :)
if they can't fly, let the caster fly, or have a flying dragon
if they can fly, get a caster with a natural ability to fly and cast antimagic aura when they are close (remember slow fall needs a wall close by)
Make it a wizard with teleportation school to avoid those grapple attemps.
Use a lot of illusions, they need to interact with them before they can get dispelled.
Summon the living hell out of things and retreat when they kill them faster than you can summon, or when you've summoned every big one you can.
All this will pi... rain on their parade, and it's not playing fair, but it will most likely beat them.
Oozes, creatures with DR, elementals, creatures with high AC.
You can keep them happy with mobility challenges. Spiders halfway up the wall lobbing entangling webs.
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Make a necromancer specialist, with school focus to raise the DC's of his necromancy spells, and curse the monk. People often forget that you can lock out one class feature/ability with bestow curse. :P
If your monk has one that he gloats over having and always uses! Curse him and remove it! He can get it back by getting a remove curse done later, but for that fight and whatever else is present with the necromancer, it'll be sad monk! And the player may very well be too distracted for the first half of the fight to really recover and use the other monk abilities to balance out the loss right away. Shock factor.
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RAGELANCEPOUNCE
Empowered or maximised Enervation. No saves.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE
I second this.
Another monk. Ranged weapons, so what if he can block one per round when he is getting hit by 5.
I think more information is in order about these monks. Tell us everything you know about them so we can tailor responses appropriately.
For example, denying flurry is a great tactic, but if they are Masters of Many Styles, then that's irrelevant.
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I think more information is in order about these monks. Tell us everything you know about them so we can tailor responses appropriately.
For example, denying flurry is a great tactic, but if they are Masters of Many Styles, then that's irrelevant.
*nod nod* agreed. That would make for a lot more streamlined tips and more useful ideas.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE
I move this to a vote.
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Bad guys have polearms, Pushing Assault, and wear DR-granting armor -- this effectively denies the PCs melee full-attacks, and screws shuriken flurries.
Aside from that, raw damage -- monks are a d8 class which can't easily self-heal more than piddly amounts. Spring-attack monsters with high move; things with Vital Strike and insane attack bonus, etc.
And: fort-saves. Monks have good saves, but fort is usually not spectacular (unless the monk PCs are multiclassed, in which case it could be phenomenal).
Oh, and encounters that are avoidable with Diplomacy.
Ah-hahaha! That, too.
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The 3/4 BAB applies only when the monk is not flurrying.
I assume the monks in question have a reliable means to see invisible foes?
Draining WIS will hurt them - it drops AC, ki and CMD. If they dumped any stat, attack it. A character with 0 INT or 0 CHA is neutralized as effectively as a character with 0 STR or 0 DEX.
Is it a zen archer dwarf monk? Because then you're screwed.
Monks? What level, and what is their AC?
Ability damage is ridiculously annoying, and it's my personal preference to avoid using it.
Have you considered just making the numbers on the monsters you'd normally use higher? Because that would work.
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Enemies that are effective vs a monk:
Enemies that move around a lot and deny the monk use of flurry of blows.
Enemies that are out of immediate reach.
Enemies that turn other party members against the monk.
Enemies that are unaffected by grappling.
Enemies that can trap areas efficiently *use ac or pay the higher cr cost for an auto-hit trap*
Enemies that can deactivate their magical gear.
Enemies with good damage reduction, probably via a spell.
Make a necromancer specialist, with school focus to raise the DC's of his necromancy spells, and curse the monk. People often forget that you can lock out one class feature/ability with bestow curse. :P
If your monk has one that he gloats over having and always uses! Curse him and remove it! He can get it back by getting a remove curse done later, but for that fight and whatever else is present with the necromancer, it'll be sad monk! And the player may very well be too distracted for the first half of the fight to really recover and use the other monk abilities to balance out the loss right away. Shock factor.
Following Nochtal's direction...
Incorporeal foes laugh at monks because their fists are only treated as magic for overcoming damage reduction. They still can't hit things like Shadows, Wraiths, etc. So unless your monk is packing magic backup weapons, they literally cannot hurt them at all.
Swarms laugh at monks, because swarms of small creatures cannot be hit by weapons or unarmed strikes, and don't really care about a monk's armor class or saving throws. Most swarms of insects and the like also have the ability to climb, or can even fly.
Spells like waves of exhaustion auto-fatigue on a successful save, which means excessive strength and dexterity penalties, plus the monk loses the ability to run or charge, which also means that it becomes incredibly easy to kite the monk around, even with his increased speed.
Spells like fire shield, especially cast in succession, can really screw up a monk's day. Flurry of blows vs hot and cold shield means easily suffering 20+ damage for every melee attack made versus the spellcaster, unless the monk has the correct energy resistances. If the monk attacks 6 times, that's 2d6+14 (1d6+7 fire, 1d6+7 cold) damage per attack, or about 126 damage by the end of the full-attack.
Damage reductions requiring alignment, silver, cold iron, or damage types like slashing or piercing to overcome really mess with a monk's damage output. A lycanthrope with DR 10/silver is basically a nightmare for a monk that isn't carrying a backup weapon, and monk weapons more or less universally suck compared to normal weapons.
Vampires and their spawn are also a pain. They require magic silver weapons to damage effectively, and every time they strike you it inflicts negative levels, which is a really nasty effect. In general, you don't want to melee with vampires, and they have excellent movement and defensive abilities (spiderclimb, gaseous form, etc).
Anything that has acid, fire, or otherwise hazardous skins or effects which deal damage to weapons and such when struck.
Stoneskin is available at 7th level, but monks don't get adamantine unarmed strikes until 16th level. You do the math.
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If you're having problems with a couple of MONKS, wait until someone plays a optimized Summoner or another Tier 1 class.
If you're having problems with a couple of MONKS, wait until someone plays a optimized Summoner or another Tier 1 class.
So true, so true. I almost feel dirty pointing out ways to rain on a monk's day.
Empowered Fire Shield.
Or get some 3.5 Howlers. They take damage per hit, and suffer -1 to rolls per quill stuck in them.
The Retribution hex might work too.
Tanglefoot bags + swarms.
Swallow Whole.
Thorn body stacked with any combination of the above.
I'd just take a look at their sheets, there are few monks that can be devastating AND can't be easily devastated.
For the average monks, a very high AC and high damage output should make them cry. These things usually goes along with solid fort saves so it's even better. If you can also add DR it's even better.
Mobility is good for challenging them while not ruining their fun.
Casters are not going to be really effective. Grapplers are SO dead against a monk (you can make a full attack action at no penalty if you are being grappled as long as you are using a light weapon, and monks happen to have just that).
I dunno if this was fixed from 3.5, but the traditional is DR. Golems?
I have a halfling monk in my game, he usually goes through battles unscathed.
A giant nearly killed the whole party. :) Frost giant.
Giant and the party wizard were 'negotiating'. "Me take half, plus food." While the party discussed it (and decided to kill him), the giant did called an action to rock throw at the wizard if he cast spells (never reveal you're a caster ahead of time). One shot the wizard mid spell cast (took him from full to -5). Then the monk came swooping in along with the barbarian. The monk is used to not getting hit with AOO. He was mildly surprised when the giant (reach) hit him anyway, and extremely alarmed when the giant took off half his hitpoints with one hit. The monk went full defensive after that (one more hit like that and he'd be close to dead). The giant ended up wasting a hit on the monk, missing due to full defense, then he lit into the barbarian, nearly killing him before he went down.
All in all, a +19 to hit really makes monks cry.
You want him dead? If good: Anti-Paladin. If Evil: Paladin. If Neutral: Fighter.
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One of my player is a monk with Insane AC. Something like 37 or so.
He's got the crane style and can block the first attack that hits him + increase in Wis + Monks robes + Ring of protection + a good dext.
He's lvl 13 and is impossible to hit. He also took a feat from 3PP which allows him to dodge an attack by making a high acrobatic check (and god knows they ARE good in acrobatics).
This bugger is simply impossible to kill (as he also got high Saving throws being a monk).
Who said monks sucked ?
Bigger enemies than them with reach.
An ogre with a polearm.. They have to be in meele with im to do any damage.. and that gives him AoO.. And that is something monks does not like.. They die.
Swarms also work really well against monks, especially if they are poisonous. Auto hit, auto damage, make save. I used a deathweb against my monk recently, it was not a fun encounter for him, since the swarms not only auto-hit, but he actually failed his saving throw and took 6 pts of str damage. :)
Bad guys with summon swarm spells can make a monk's life painful. Even if he does have a 37 AC. And since they don't make attack rolls, your monk's ability to negate an attack roll is useless.
One of my player is a monk with Insane AC. Something like 37 or so.
He's got the crane style and can block the first attack that hits him + increase in Wis + Monks robes + Ring of protection + a good dext.
He's lvl 13 and is impossible to hit. He also took a feat from 3PP which allows him to dodge an attack by making a high acrobatic check (and god knows they ARE good in acrobatics).
This bugger is simply impossible to kill (as he also got high Saving throws being a monk).
Who said monks sucked ?
My strategy would be to completely ignore him because he has focused all his resources towards defense and almost certainly is absolutely no threat on offense. Kill everyone else before even bothering to go after him.
1 - Distorted "identity eating" shadows. CR 4, 10' reach incorporeal creatures that deal 1d6 Charisma damage with a touch attack.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/shadow
2 - Ninjas with burnt other fume poison smoke bombs. Show your monk player that you can out-Asian-cliche them.
3 - Any encounter that requires some skillset besides hitting things and acrobatics to succeed.
4 - Anything at all that's big and tough, preferably with multiple natural weapons. Half of the Bestiary can out-damage a monk that tries to stand toe-to-toe and flurry against it.
I foresee a dead monk in your future if you go that route. A dead monk and sad players.
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Heh. They won't stop until everybody's dead! :-D ...TPK-land
(Basic gist: a Hobgoblin Infiltrator is a standard hobgoblin with his bonus in DEX rather than whatever stat it is usually in, and with class levels. They have 60' Darkvision. Now make "bowbarian"/ninja archers out of 'em. Yikes! -- A monk's class bonuses to AC go *poof* when he's denied his DEX bonus to AC...which he is whenever he is effectively blind versus his adversary.)
Grappling doesn't prevent flurry of blows. Grabbing someone that can kick you in the face with one (or even two) occupied hands isn't the best idea.
Q: Can a monk do a Flurry of Blows during a grapple as it requires a full attack action?
A: (Jason Bulmahn 12/11/09) The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold. [Source]
A few cyclops each hossed up with 5 fighter or barbarian levels with a weapon of spell storing - personally I like intensified shocking grasp, then you have them use their flash of insight ability coupled with a power attack with a two-handed weapon
Flash of insight - Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made. This effect can alter an action taken by the cyclops only, and cannot be applied to the rolls of others.
you have them choose a nat "20" and discharge the shocking grasp even if you dont crit (which depending on how you rule the all modifiers part of the critical threat rules) you would still do 3d6+16+10d6
you could increase this easily by making the weapons intelligent with the ability to cast a 1st level spell (shocking Grasp), or having bane on the weapons.
have an invisible wizard hit one of the the monks with a terrible remorse spell, which even if they save they still have 1 round of inaction.
or if you really want to put a sting in it
have 5 or 6 wizards improved inviibility all with wands of empowered magic missile caster level 9 (5 missiles)and have them all target one monk at a time. (ideally put out some big bait monster the monks rush into kick ass on and have the wizards delay their action till after everyone has gone, then burn the MoFo's down 25d4+1-2x25+25 that should get you 100 hit points of damage or more.
Exactly as of trhead title. There are two monks in the party of my campaign and these guy can easily face everything i throw at them. They all have high saving throws and they inflict a lot of damage. I just want to give them a bigger challenge. Any advice?
Stop equating "bigger challenge" with "harder combat". All the BAB, damage, et cetera in the game won't help at all in situations were those things aren't useful.