If he is having fun with it, why try and talk him out of it?
How can I convince him to change class?
Is he having fun as it is?
If yes then don't.
You think his character wont work. However, you dont know. Let him play it. As long as he has fun, there is no problem. If he later has regrets, then let him make a new character later, when it is his own idea.
Let him play it. Wait until he begins to complain about it and deal with it then.
You think his character wont work. However, you dont know. Let him play it. As long as he has fun, there is no problem. If he later has regrets, then let him make a new character later, when it is his own idea.
I dont neccessarily agree with the idea that 'if he is having fun let it go'. A character that is deliberately unoptimized is just as disruptive for a dm as a character that is munchkined like no one's business. If a dm has the right (and duty) to ask an overpowered character to scale things up, he has the same right to ask a character that has fallen behind to scale things up.
OP, why exactly is he opposed to playing a bard? Did he give reasons?
Trickster is weak at the lower levels. It'll be better around the mid levels, when the PrC kicks in, and he's casting higher level spells to augment the party.
Trickster is weak at the lower levels. It'll be better around the mid levels, when the PrC kicks in, and he's casting higher level spells to augment the party.
The problem is there is already a wizard and a rogue in the party. The 'higher level spells' the arcane trickster will be able to cast will be largely superfluous.
nevermind
Most players need to feel like they're contributing mechanically on something like that same level as the rest of the party in order to not get bummed out, but not all. The player clearly isn't an optimizer; he's going way beyond simply making fluff choices here and there. If the player is happy and the other party members don't mind, it's no problem. Despite being in a party with another arcane caster and another rogue, I'm assuming that there's some things that the character is good at compared to the rest of the party. (They're the face, right?) As long as you can find ways to let the character shine a little it should be fine.
And yeah, there's a good chance that he'll eventually decide to chuck it in and do something more effective. You've made it clear to him that rebuilding his character using different mechanics is an option, so the ball's in his court now. One last thing to check is if there's some specific feature that Arcane Trickster has that he feels he absolutely has to have; if that's the case, you might consider giving him a special feat or item that lets him do that. (It sounds like he's anything but a powergamer.)
Aside: This whole thread seems more like an indictment of the Arcane Trickster build-up than anything else; I mean, aside from spending skill ranks on perform, the character is normal for all we know. It's just that rogue 2/sorcerer 2 is pretty dubious, and only gets more dubious.
Since there are no balance issues, you could offer him a feat that let him inspire courage as a bard would (or with smaller bonuses, you get the point...)
Fun fact: with the right skill placement, bards have an effective 17 skills per level.
How high level are you planning to take this game? If he's set on becoming an Arcane Trickster, did you actually let him read the Sandman Bard archetype? If you are going high level, up to level 20 at least, point out that he can take levels in Arcane Trickster after 10 levels of Sandman. Not as early as Rogue3/Sorcerer4, but still not bad, and he wouldn't have to split his class levels.
How high level are you planning to take this game? If he's set on becoming an Arcane Trickster, did you actually let him read the Sandman Bard archetype? If you are going high level, up to level 20 at least, point out that he can take levels in Arcane Trickster after 10 levels of Sandman. Not as early as Rogue3/Sorcerer4, but still not bad, and he wouldn't have to split his class levels.
Or, better yet (thought of this on the way home from work) he can actually take 5 levels in Sandman and take one level in Rogue, Ninja or Vivisectionist (Alchemist) to meet the requirements for Arcane Trickster. That way he can actually start taking Arcane Trickster one level earlier than he could with the Rogue/Sorcerer combo. Personally, I'd use Vivisectionist since you get the most out of the dip.
Vivisectionist does not give an increase to sneak attack. It adds one to your effective level to determine your sneak attack bonus.
Just wait till he starts rolling 2's and hitting for 12d6. Let him have his fun
Thanks for the great advice everybody! I really appreciate it.
Yes, the player does have fun playing his character, but that is more because how he is roleplaying his character and not how his character mechanicly work. Actually he complains about his lack of skill points, and he also doesn't seem to enjoy the combat encounters as the others do. He loves roleplaying and that is great (really great actually), but I still think it's sad that he can not enjoy combat like the others.
That is why I am advicing him to change class. The bard will as the most important thing still allow him to roleplay his character, exactly how he is doing it right now. He is actually playing his character exactly like a bard could be played - constantly playing music. Even in battle he sometimes plays music for no good reason. As a bard he can buff the party while he is playing music and the party will love him for it.
He will also have much more skill points, and he will thereby feel more like a skill monkey, which is one of the things he want to achieve, I think.
I have talked with him about the possibility of changeing class, but he completely rejects the idea. I have tried to argue that he would gain the skill points he wishes, and he would be a much better asset for the party. I ask him, why he doesn't want to change class, and he doesn't really give any good reasons. He says he likes the flavour of the arcane trickster and especially ranged legerdemain of the arcane trickster, even though I am willing to give him ranged legerdemain for free if he plays a bard, and he will still keep his skill monkey/charismatic flavour (more likely better).
Of course I can let him play the character, and I guess he will change his mind, when he sees that the character isn't so full-filling as he had in mind. However the other players do seem a bit (but only a tiny bit) annoyed byy it, but they do like his roleplay. I'm just trying to do the best for him, and I think he will have such a greater time with a full bard class than...
Create a roleplay encounter in a dungeon that opens a secret door. He is having fun with it reward him in this encounter with an item that improves his skill points and have the rest of the party give you a wish list and those items become the treasure. Until he gets tired and wants to change his character leave it til then.
The problem is there is already a wizard and a rogue in the party. The 'higher level spells' the arcane trickster will be able to cast will be largely superfluous.Trickster is weak at the lower levels. It'll be better around the mid levels, when the PrC kicks in, and he's casting higher level spells to augment the party.
So, make the campaign reliant on magic and stealthy, indirect roleplay. Rogues and tricksters can bluff, too.
The sorcerer/trickster can spam lower level spells like invisibility and the occasional scorching ray for extra damage, while the wizard concentrates on more specific spells for the job at hand.
A bard is not significantly better than a trickster sorcerer in any aspect of playing the face, and falls behind in spell power at higher levels. It gets more skills and bab, but the indirect nature of the AT, plus the much more powerful magic they get makes up for it.
These guys aren't about storming the castle. They get into it unnoticed, and steal the Macguffin without leaving a trace.
Tell the fighter and wizard to put ranks in stealth, if you're going to do anything, and let them be sneaky specialists.
They wouldn't be great at fighting hordes of orcs on a battlefield, but they'd be good at intrigue.
Vivisectionist does not give an increase to sneak attack. It adds one to your effective level to determine your sneak attack bonus.
I have to disagree with this. Under the Vivisectionist's sneak attack it says:
"If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on)."
It says the effective rogue level. Since the sandman gets sneak attack dice at a far reduced rate, this rule shouldn't come into play. And, if it did come into pay and you took the statement by pure RAW, an alchemist 1/sandman 5 would get +3d6 because their levels stack to determine the effective rogue level (level 6). This seems far off. By my reading, you have 5 levels of sandman. You add one level of Vivisectionist. Since sandman does not have an effective rogue level for sneak attack (never mentions the word "rogue" in the archetype) and since his dice are gained at a completely different rate, the level with Vivisectionist does not stack with sandman. He will be a sandman 5, gaining +1d6 sneak, and effective level 1 rogue from the Vivisectionist, gaining a second +1d6 sneak attack. I don't see how it can work any other way.
Hmm, you may be right. Sandmans Not Sneak Attack always throws me off. However, iirc, as written it can also sneak attack oozes, elemental, etc. It's far easier to assume it's meant to work exactly like a rogue's sneak attack with a big gap.
Actually he complains about his lack of skill pointsand yet
he have full ranks in two diffrent perform skills (sing and string)!
He is throwing away skill points on skills that are nearly useless to him, and then complaining about it. Spending a point so you can roleplay "I can sing and play" is fine, I've taken skills like that before. And if he really wants the skills at max ranks, I'm not going to say he is "playing wrong". But he has no reason to complain about not having enough skill points when he is THROWING THEM AWAY. I would just ignore his complaints. You've tried to help him and he has rejected you.
This reminds me of the Mythbusters where they explored the Monty Haul Paradox. Most people are loath to change their choice once it's made. Maybe your player is just being stubborn.
If he is feeling skill starved. Let him fudge his sorc levels to wizard and adjust his int and char accordingly. Chances are that will raise his int as the relevant ability which would unlock skill points. It is a slight tweak. He loses spontaneous casting but gains the skills. Also if he is already a trickster create some situations that he can do that the other rogue can't. Ie the lock or divice to be disabled is on the other side of a pit and can't be reached.
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What is his main complaint? Is it the lack of skills or a preceived weakness in combat? Sounds like he has the Role playing part of the game down, now he might just need some tweaks in the Roll playing part of the game.
Bare minimum, I would let him do some research in the archtypes and see if one of those helps his character out.
As for 'forcing' him to change, I would never do that as a GM. Last campaign the main tank in the party was a sword/shield barbarian [I know 2H is better, but the shield gave him the ability to cast Cure light wounds on himself and was a family heirlom] Two strong healers already in the party [Cleric and Pally], but he suddendly decides he needs to be able to heal himself more so takes a level in Cleric. Much to the dead pan face of the rest of the party.
But that was his choice, and we all lived with it. All, you can really do as a GM is guide the player, you really can't force them to change without them resenting you and more importantly their character.
Simple question: Are you playing at the guy's place?
show him some of the bard archtypes that have more of an arcane slant he might find somthing he likes.
people usually multiclass when they don't find any one class that has everything they want.
archyptes do a pretty good job of creating class variations that give those people the different slant they were looking for and then they can just go pure 1 class and they won't ever be too far behind the power curve.
Hmm, so?
Looks like he/she solved the problem.