My questions would be why would you offer something like light armor proficiency to a class and tell them if they use it, many of their main class features are rendered useless?
According to the writer, it was "to give options."
Also who cares about flurrying with a weapon? When your fists can deal 2d10 damage at level 20 what's going to compare with that as a manufactured weapon? Sure comparable damages through crits but the base damage isn't comparable to anything. 2d8 is a large sized bastard sword. 3d6 is a large sized 2h sword. Either way you will need an over sized weapon which provides negatives for size.
Using an 18-20 weapon (with Keen or Improved Crit) will kick up your damage like crazy. You can buy weapons of various materials at low-levels, getting around one monk problem. Then you get to buy a single, powerful magic weapon rather than an Amulet of Mighty Fists, getting around another issue. In then end, it is comparable to getting to do two-weapon fighting with a single weapon.
And this isn't getting into the ranged version, which skirts the restrictions of Zen Archer for a ridiculous number of shots.
Flurrying with a non-monk weapon can have advantages depending on the feats and weapon enhancements. It can also make a difference if you multiclass.
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My questions would be why would you offer something like light armor proficiency to a class and tell them if they use it, many of their main class features are rendered useless?Mithral breastplate vs. mounted charges while in the saddle; Flurry if roused while sleeping in your PJs?
Also who cares about flurrying with a weapon? When your fists can deal 2d10 damage at level 20 what's going to compare with that as a manufactured weapon? Sure comparable damages through crits but the base damage isn't comparable to anything. 2d8 is a large sized bastard sword. 3d6 is a large sized 2h sword. Either way you will need an over sized weapon which provides negatives for size.Using an 18-20 weapon (with Keen or Improved Crit) will kick up your damage like crazy. You can buy weapons of various materials at low-levels, getting around one monk problem. Then you get to buy a single, powerful magic weapon rather than an Amulet of Mighty Fists, getting around another issue. In then end, it is comparable to getting to do two-weapon fighting with a single weapon.
Yep: straight Sohei6, half-elf, Ancestral Arms for a fauchard (or human with a feat thrown at EWP), picks pole-arms with his Weapon Training group at 6th, and buys Gloves of Dueling at the same time. Combat Reflexes is on the monk freebies list...yoink.
If your down to just light the multi classing for better weapons isn't so bad.
I guess it gives options.... Giving up the +5 AC from monk class and bracers AC 8 for light armor +5 at 20th. Potential +13 lost for a +9. Doesn't seem better to me.
First, you are not limited to light armor. Even if you were, you can easily outpace the Monk in AC. A +2 Mithral breastplate is only 8k, 1/8 the price of the equivalent +8 Bracers (64k). That leaves a lot of money for other goodies, and more importantly allows you to acquire it far, far earlier. Since it is the lower levels where AC is most important, this is a huge bonus. You'll eventually settle into something like +5 Full-Plate, a +14 armor bonus that still costs less than half (27k-ish) what the Bracers do, and with room to expand or take the straight gp enhancements.
You don't need wisdom any more for AC but now your ki pool gets more limited. Circumstantial at best. Doesn't seem better to me.
How is it circumstantial? The trick is, flurry is already allowing you to perform the equivalent of (pre-req free) TWF with a single weapon. You can bump it even higher with ki, but you can save that for the tough fights. So you are normally better, and can bring it up to awesome when the circumstance dictates.
This will always be better if you multiclass fighter(weapon master) and take some ridiculous weapon.
Well, ya. Nobody is advocated taking the straight Sohei past level 6 or 8. As Mike said, it is an amplifier. More attacks, better saves, and some weird mount abilities to plug into whatever other class you want. Heck, if you were willing to change your alignment after 6 or 8, you could even make it into a RageLancePounce (er... RageLanceMountedSkirmsher, but you get the idea).
Balance wise I'd say in light armor you can flurry but you lose wisdom to ac and the monk AC bonus. And only weapon training subsets obtainable through the shohei archetype are applicable to the flurry.
This would help limit it (more than "sucking until level 6" already does). It would still leave the archer version, which is frankly the more powerful one in my opinion.
*Stuff about TWF*
You're over thinking it. Flurry works similarly to TWF, but is not the same thing. A level 6 Sohei with a two handed weapon would attack with it three times, at +6/+6/+1, with a -2 for two-weapon fighting. No extra complications or penalties.
The big thing to remember is, over 6 levels, you are only 1 feat behind a fighter. Your saves are much better, with 2 more skill points and 1 less hitpoint a level. Other differences here and there, but on the whole an extra attack, or two, or three is going to be worth it for most builds. It isn't the most game breaking build, but it is certainly worthy of attention and, perhaps, a bit of errata.
*Crusader Flurry Option*
No ki, no armor at all if you want to Flurry, and many of the abilities require two actual weapons (negating the cost savings of a single one and preventing the use of two-handed weapons, unless you want to add waste an attack or two on unenhanced kicks). Most importantly,if you like the Two Weapon Fighter, you can still take 14 levels of it after Sohei!
If the Sohei's proficiency entry completely replaces the Monk's proficiency entry...
Does this mean that the Sohei's Bonus Feats entry completely replaces the Monk's Bonus Feats entry? Does this mean that a Sohei is unable to take Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, etc, as bonus feats?
-Matt
Same way you rapid shot with them and make your extra attacks from high bab
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The armor proficiency text supercedes the vanilla monk's one, including the part about the monk not supposed to flurry while armored. The "armored monk can't flurry" isn't anymore true for a sohei. The writer just didn't think about mentioning it clearly, by the way excluding armors higher than light, and forgetting about mentioning the fact that the sohei flurrying with a bow should have to follow the same limitations than a zen archer.
This is incorrect.
The armor proficiency text does not supersede the base monk text unless is specifically calls out that the sohei can flurry in armor. The archetype never mentions flurrying with armor. It does call out flurrying with non-monk weapons at 6th level and with a certain set of weapons. To get flurrying with non-monk weapons the sohei gives up purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon. But somehow to flurry in armor the sohei gives up nothing. Give me a break.
So why even give the Sohei armor? It provides the option to create a monk with less than ideal monk scores. WIS provides a nice armor bonus and affects your stunning fist DC. If you happen to have a bad wisdom then the Sohei, who gives you light armor and drops stunning fist for Devoted Guardian, is a good option. You could still flurry if you took off your armor. You could also flurry with a bow at 6th level. Not quite as well as a zen archer but the possibility exists.
edit: Notice that the sohei has several abilities that make it better with mounts (Handle Animal skill an Monastic Mount ability). People usually prefer charge as an attack action when mounted. The cavalier/sohei would be great for that. He still cannot flurry in full plate.
I'm pretty sure it's a mistake, because if it isn't, then why give the Sohei Armor Proficiency if it robs then of their flurry of blows... or why give them flurry of blows if they can't used in any kind of armor ?
So, you would get 7 attacks, possibly 8 with haste or a speed weapon, at higher levels... and ? The fighters with the 3 Two-Weapon Fighting feats can do the same, where's the problem ? The Sohei gains proficiency mostly with two-handed weapons, which in a flurry don't get their 1-1/2 Str modifier to damage, just the regular Str modifier.
Furthremore, what's the big concern with the full plate ? Unless you have a crappy Dex score, you'd probably want to get a lighter armor.
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This is incorrect.
The armor proficiency text does not supersede the base monk text unless is specifically calls out that the sohei can flurry in armor. The archetype never mentions flurrying with armor. It does call out flurrying with non-monk weapons at 6th level and with a certain set of weapons. To get flurrying with non-monk weapons the sohei gives up purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon. But somehow to flurry in armor the sohei gives up nothing. Give me a break.
So why even give the Sohei armor? It provides the option to create a monk with less than ideal monk scores.
Before the developer stated that this was wrong, my previous statement was what people finally decided to assume, since it made sense both RAW and RAI.
I'm reassured then !... it's only bad game design. Giving options that f#+@ with each other just for the sake of giving options is just silly. I'll stick with the previous now-houserule fix of the class, thanks : flurry in light armor, loses Wisdom bonus to AC when armored, can't use RS or Manyshot when flurrying with a bow.
The armor proficiency text supercedes the vanilla monk's one, including the part about the monk not supposed to flurry while armored. The "armored monk can't flurry" isn't anymore true for a sohei. The writer just didn't think about mentioning it clearly, by the way excluding armors higher than light, and forgetting about mentioning the fact that the sohei flurrying with a bow should have to follow the same limitations than a zen archer.This is incorrect.
The armor proficiency text does not supersede the base monk text unless is specifically calls out that the sohei can flurry in armor. The archetype never mentions flurrying with armor. It does call out flurrying with non-monk weapons at 6th level and with a certain set of weapons. To get flurrying with non-monk weapons the sohei gives up purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon. But somehow to flurry in armor the sohei gives up nothing. Give me a break.
The inability to flurry in armor is only called out in the armor and weapons section -- since the Sohei replaces his armor and weapons section instead of alters the text is missing in his case. Also he does give up all those exotic weapons on the monk list (I know, they aren't that great but he still gives them up).
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I know fast movement doesn't matter while mounted, but I've played in very few games where it would have been possible to be mounted all the time. In fact, most times it seems our characters are in tight passages underground, or need to climb down stairs or shimmy down ropes. A mount would be inappropriate in a great deal of situations, and a character who wears full plate without worrying about those situations will be disappointed frequently.
On a sohei note, can they only select "mounted combat" feats as bonus feats and must meet all the prerequisites to take one? If we're going on the assumption that ability replacement text completely supercedes the base class ability text, the entire bonus feats section of monk is getting replaced.
(Barring the fact there is no such category as mounted combat feats, and assuming this means mounted combat and any feat with it as a prerequisite)
Bonus Feats
A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats.
That would seem to me to be an extension of the ability already had, but I could it being exclusive on the "it doesn't explicitly say you can still choose the other feats" level. The "may" in there is rather indicative of an additional choice (instead of exclusive replacement) though in my opinion.
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The armor proficiency text supercedes the vanilla monk's one, including the part about the monk not supposed to flurry while armored. The "armored monk can't flurry" isn't anymore true for a sohei. The writer just didn't think about mentioning it clearly, by the way excluding armors higher than light, and forgetting about mentioning the fact that the sohei flurrying with a bow should have to follow the same limitations than a zen archer.
This is incorrect.
The armor proficiency text does not supersede the base monk text unless is specifically calls out that the sohei can flurry in armor. The archetype never mentions flurrying with armor. It does call out flurrying with non-monk weapons at 6th level and with a certain set of weapons. To get flurrying with non-monk weapons the sohei gives up purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon. But somehow to flurry in armor the sohei gives up nothing. Give me a break.
The inability to flurry in armor is only called out in the armor and weapons section -- since the Sohei replaces his armor and weapons section instead of alters the text is missing in his case. Also he does give up all those exotic weapons on the monk list (I know, they aren't that great but he still gives them up).
When things are replaced in archetypes they are specifically called out as replaced. The Zen Archer flurry of blows is specifically called out to be only with bows and not with any other weapons.
Monk of the Empty hand makes it clear that they are proficient in shiruken only.
The shohei text does not make it clear that the proficiencies section replaces or limits the base monk section. It does not make it clear that the normal limitations are removed. Archetypes call out any specific changes to the base class and make them clear. The limitation to flurry of blows is not called out as being removed. Thus it is still valid and still applies.
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I just want to give an example. The Divine Strategist in UC has this text:
Domains: A divine strategist gains only a single domain.The base cleric has this text:
Domains: A cleric's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.
In addition, a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level. Unless otherwise noted, using a domain power is a standard action. Cleric domains are listed at the end of this class entry.
Based upon your definition of archetype text totally replacing other text in a base class the divine strategist now gets a domain and domain spells but no bonus domain slot. The divine strategist as also not limited in choosing domains.
It is silly on its face to apply your definition to archetypes.
My definition adds the texts and specific limitations or restrictions. Applying it to this example works perfectly. I am sure if I looked longer than a few minutes I could find several other examples where your definition does not work.
I'll be honest we've already seen that the entire thing can (and has) been rather sloppily put together multiple times before (including ignoring the very text about archetypes at the start of the archetypes areas of products) so why would one more time be so surprising?
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When they replace something they specifically call it out as replaced. Everything else is added. The example in UC is as follows:
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
If you look at Flowing Monk you see that Stunning Fist being replaced is specifically called out. Every time they replace the base ability the actually use replace. If a class feature is lost they specifically say it is lost. If it is not specified then it is not lost.
The sohei was sloppily written. They give a class feature adjustment and do not say if it is in addition or to replace. Addition makes sense because otherwise the 6th level weapon training makes no sense as you can take weapon training in Monk Weapons. If the Weapon Proficiencies section replaced the base proficiencies then the only Monk Weapon he has is QuarterStaff from his simple weapon proficiencies.
This also makes sense for the Bonus Feats section. He may select Mounted Combat feats in addition to the normal monk bonus feats.
It also makes sense for the class skill section. He may select Handle Animal in addition to the other monk class skills. If it replaced that whole section he could only pick Handle Animal as a class skill.
Alright let me put it this way: I can certainly see where your argument is coming from, and how/why it is crafted -- I certainly won't be subscribing to it myself any time soon.
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Keep in mind also that the Sohei loses fast movement, and that wearing full plate would give him a movement speed of 20 ft. Not a big deal in later levels or in open fields where he can ride a horse, but I really don't think it's unbalanced to have access to full plate by multiclassing.
It's difficult to design any TWF concept which enjoys best possible armor: Rangers and CRB monks are otherwise precluded from using their class TWF abilities in heavy armor, and fighters become MAD if they try to meet the DEX requirements. But Sohei can wear the heaviest armor without a care.
Sohei "amplifier" example:
Halfling, 20pt PFS
STR+13, DEX14, CON14, INT12, WIS12, CHA14
Traits:
01 cava1 [Gendarme][Mounted Combat][Challenge 1/d], Power Attack
02 monk1 [Sohei][Devoted Guardian][Ride-by Attack][FoB][IUS]
03 monk2 [Spirited Charge][Evasion][INIT+1], Skill Focus: Ride
...Sohei is BAB-1 and HP-2 versus using two levels of fighter to snarf the same feats, with INIT+1, Evasion, REF+3, WIL+3 and ability to always act in surprise rounds being the more-than-adequate compensation.
AC:21 before magic (size, Four-Mirror Armor, heavy shield); zero armor-check penalty while mounted.
04 cava2 (order ability), STR>14
05 cava3 Indomitable Mount
06 cava4 [Challenge 2/d][Expert Trainer]
07 monk3 [Maneuver Training][Still Mind], Horse Master
...the mounted concept is now riding a tough medium-sized critter through dungeons. Still Mind is better than Bravery (if continuing the fighter multiclass comparison).
...but so far, the cheese factor is limited, as the monk archetype's best capabilities are yet down the road, and Flurry chiefly limited to Challenge unarmed-strikes upon foes who crowd in under reach of the lance.
08 monk4 [INIT+2][Ki Pool][Ki Weapon+1][Monastic Mount]
...mount is now more durable than most melee PCs. Character's saves now equivalent to a cava/fighter multiclass with Lightning Reflexes, Improved Lighting Reflexes, Iron Will and Improved Iron will.
09 monk5 Quick Draw
10 monk6 [Wheeling Charge*][Weapon Training+1:Spears][INIT+3]
AC: Mithril Full-plate, etc.
...* If Sohei is permitted to ignore feat prerequisites with Bonus feats, Wheeling Charge could be taken as early as 2nd level in this build, or 1st is Sohei1 at 1st.
...At this point, the character can Flurry with his lance and with javelins (note Quick Draw), and will wear Gloves of Dueling to amply both (the +3/+3 he gets from using Weapon Training with these totally makes up for forfeiting the extra Challenge bonus damage he'd received by being a straight cavalier). His mount is neigh untouchable, as it can avoid one hit and one save per round, has temporary hitpoints, and shares a ton of monk abilities including Evasion, Ki Strike and Monk AC. (So, essentially, the mount becomes the monk, while the "monk" is an armored tank. ...trick now is gaming the system to get the mount to wear Monk's Robes! :-P ...and you're doing it "by the book" in PFS, a campaign which does not permit Leadership.)
11 monk7 [Wholeness of Body], FEAT(g)
12 monk8 [(extra Flurry attack)][INIT+4][Ki Weapon+2]
...option: scratch one or both of monk 7/8 for one or two levels of Fighter[Dragoon], picking up two to three more feats at expense of one I-TWF flurry and further bonuses to Ki Weapon, Initiative and Ref and Wil saves.
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Keep in mind also that the Sohei loses fast movement, and that wearing full plate would give him a movement speed of 20 ft. Not a big deal in later levels or in open fields where he can ride a horse, but I really don't think it's unbalanced to have access to full plate by multiclassing.It's difficult to design any TWF concept which enjoys best possible armor: Rangers and CRB monks are otherwise precluded from using their class TWF abilities in heavy armor, and fighters become MAD if they try to meet the DEX requirements. But Sohei can wear the heaviest armor without a care.
Sohei "amplifier" example:
Halfling, 20pt PFS
STR+13, DEX14, CON14, INT12, WIS12, CHA14
Traits:01 cava1 [Gendarme][Mounted Combat][Challenge 1/d], Power Attack
02 monk1 [Sohei][Devoted Guardian][Ride-by Attack][FoB][IUS]
03 monk2 [Spirited Charge][Evasion][INIT+1], Skill Focus: Ride...Sohei is BAB-1 and HP-2 versus using two levels of fighter to snarf the same feats, with INIT+1, Evasion, REF+3, WIL+3 and ability to always act in surprise rounds being the more-than-adequate compensation.
AC:21 before magic (size, Four-Mirror Armor, heavy shield); zero armor-check penalty while mounted.
04 cava2 (order ability), STR>14
05 cava3 Indomitable Mount
06 cava4 [Challenge 2/d][Expert Trainer]
07 monk3 [Maneuver Training][Still Mind], Horse Master...the mounted concept is now riding a tough medium-sized critter through dungeons. Still Mind is better than Bravery (if continuing the fighter multiclass comparison).
...but so far, the cheese factor is limited, as the monk archetype's best capabilities are yet down the road, and Flurry chiefly limited to Challenge unarmed-strikes upon foes who crowd in under reach of the lance.08 monk4 [INIT+2][Ki Pool][Ki Weapon+1][Monastic Mount]
...mount is now more durable than most melee PCs. Character's saves now equivalent to a cava/fighter multiclass with Lightning Reflexes, Improved Lighting Reflexes, Iron Will and Improved Iron will.
09 monk5 Quick...
I been reading this and my thinking falls into two camps so I started reading the archetype... It is really left open for the reader to decide or DM. As each person will come to thier own conclusions and will have a hard time convincing anyone else of their way of thinking due to eceryones varied experiences in RPG games. I (even after reading this threat and two others linked to/about it) have come to a totally.different line of thought... Lol. Man I love this game.
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"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder Wizard
Nah, see. It gets worse. Sohei can flurry with Nodachi, because Nodachi is a polearm. Also, 2-handing a weapon doesn't increase strength mod to damage, but it DOES increase power attack damage. Which multiplies on crit. And nodachi crits really often. And you can take Qinggong to get Life Leech, and then you go infinite with Ki points, using them to get extra attacks with a flurry.
This has been known about for a while.
The DPR for this build is incredible, considering that it doesn't require conditional things (like a charge or sneak attack) or expendable resources.
That it can be done while in superb armor, and with a full animal companion is...kind of insane.
Probably not game-breaking...but maybe.
Okay, are people going to play that way?
Most people wouldn't but because someone might its gonna be called out as broken and begged to be fixed until it gets nerfed to the point that its the titan mauler and doesn't do anything.
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I get that things can become unbalanced when multiclassing but that's what multiclassing will do.
A straight-class Sohei who chooses Bows as a weapon group is a better archer than a Zen archer from 6th onward (in fact, he blows him away once he has Rapid/Manyshot lined up). And then he jumps on a store-bought heavy warhorse and instantly buffs it up to nearly druid companion capacity (these animals usually croak in mid-levels by taking half-damage from AoO spells -- but Sohei can grant Evasion). Oh, and he wears Celestial Armor since he can jam it all into DEX now.
-- There is no reason, other than "flavor", to play a Zen archer now.
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Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:
"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder Wizard
Well, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)
Most people wouldn't but because someone might its gonna be called out as broken and begged to be fixed until it gets nerfed to the point that its the titan mauler and doesn't do anything.
Titan Mauler didn't do anything before it was "fixed." Unless you used huge firearms which still work.
Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder WizardWell, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)
"But I already have a cohort. My younger brother, who is also like me, and his solars are unhappy that there is a monk in heavy armor that doesn't use weapons that are laughable. What are we wizards to do in a world where people can use weapons AND armor?" - Wizard #1
"Yeah, this totally trumps our ability to create 20th level flying clerics with slaying arrows and the ability to spam summon monster VII while invisible completely out of the water. Nerf it, go!" - Wizard #2
"But Monks are mushrooms. Q.Q" - Monk
I get that things can become unbalanced when multiclassing but that's what multiclassing will do.A straight-class Sohei who chooses Bows as a weapon group is a better archer than a Zen archer from 6th onward (in fact, he blows him away once he has Rapid/Manyshot lined up). And then he jumps on a store-bought heavy warhorse and instantly buffs it up to nearly druid companion capacity (these animals usually croak in mid-levels by taking half-damage from AoO spells -- but Sohei can grant Evasion). Oh, and he wears Celestial Armor since he can jam it all into DEX now.
-- There is no reason, other than "flavor", to play a Zen archer now.
Except for:
Early access to ranged feats: Skip point blank going straight to precise, get improved precise at level 6 instead of 11, pinpoint targeting at 10 instead of never qualifying without multiclassing.The ability to tank dex for wisdom with a ranged attacker.
Point Blank Master to not worry about AoO (sohei can never qualify without multiclassing)
Using the Bow for AoO.
In addition, the zen archer moves as fast or faster than the mounted sohei, and does not need to rely on a fragile mount.
The sohei loses one of the best class features, Abundant Step, for an ability that will often be not as good as the gear they will have anyway.
Overall, I would rather have a standard monk then a Sohei most of the time. If I want to go for the mounted combat, I still find straight Cavalier or Paladin better.
The Sohei archtype has many issues, but being overpowered is not one I feel it has. Mechanically, it is poorly defined: Are the mounted combat feats in addition to or replacing normal feats; which feats are "mounted combat feats"; do these feats ignore prereqs like normal (does not say they do, so assuming no); are the weapon/armor proficiencies in addition to normal, and, if not, do they keep the normal restrictions on AC bonus and flurry which is only included under the proficiencies section; how do you define something to be your mount if you are not riding anything (can give bonus to mount while adjacent); what is the action type for granting temporary HP (assuming swift because normal ki powers are).
The Sohei archtype has many issues, but being overpowered is not one I feel it has. Mechanically, it is poorly defined: Are the mounted combat feats in addition to or replacing normal feats; which feats are "mounted combat feats"; do these feats ignore prereqs like normal (does not say they do, so assuming no); are the weapon/armor proficiencies in addition to normal, and, if not, do they keep the normal restrictions on AC bonus and flurry which is only included under the proficiencies section; how do you define...I hadn't paid much attention to the Sohei since nobody in my group seems to care about them yet (my group uses mostly core + psionics, with some alchemists showing up fairly regularly), but that sounds like just shoddy writing to me.
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Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder WizardWell, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)
I admit I am a noob when it comes to opt a character... but how does a Wizard create 3 pet Solars? lol Is that something they can do... seriously?
OH HAI THAR!
I hadn't paid much attention to the Sohei since nobody in my group seems to care about them yet (my group uses mostly core + psionics, with some alchemists showing up fairly regularly), but that sounds like just shoddy writing to me.
The Sohei archtype has many issues, but being overpowered is not one I feel it has. Mechanically, it is poorly defined: Are the mounted combat feats in addition to or replacing normal feats; which feats are "mounted combat feats"; do these feats ignore prereqs like normal (does not say they do, so assuming no); are the weapon/armor proficiencies in addition to normal, and, if not, do they keep the normal restrictions on AC bonus and flurry which is only included under the proficiencies section; how do you define...
A lot of the issue comes from the weapon proficiencies and bonus feats not saying if they are in addition to or replacing, which every other monk archtype does. In addition, it uses the non-defined mounted combat feats, when those are not defined. The only other one that uses that terminology is the style master, and style feats are definitively defined in annother section.
I feel like this archtype was submitted as a concept and failed to go through mechanical editing.