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So we're about to start playing Council of Thieves in the heart of Cheliax, and I'm tempted to play a Lawful Neutral Cleric of Asmodeus. The Fire and Trickery domains sound like fun, as does the concept of playing a black-and-red-clad, eye-shadowed, "bad cop" type of character. >:)
Now, my question is: How much do I actually have to "worship" Asmodeus to pull off being his Cleric, getting my daily spells, and not be lynched by fellow Asmodeites? Can I basically despise him privately (or even semi-publicly, such as in front of friends)? Can I actively oppose the workings of the Church of Asmodeus that I don't agree with? Can I basically keep my "contract" with Asmodeus "purely business"?
Also, how likely is Asmodeus to notice? Not at all? If so, would he — if anything — commend me on following his example on how to abuse contracts for one's own benefit? ;)
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I do not feel a god will give you power if you are not really his worshiper. If you despise him you are not devote and there for not a worshiper and not a cleric.
Gods do NOT give power to those who are not thoroughly devote to them.
As always this would be up to your DM, if I was running the game however it would be a no go. Cleric are the embodiment of a gods divine power on the prime material plane and any cleric without real faith in their deity isn't going to get very far, at the very least I would limit the cleric to 3rd level spells. Praying to a dark deity isn't a game of soldiers however, it could be fun to tempt the character to fall into darkness as the character progresses, slowly becoming twisted and corrupted until a true cleric is born ;-).
Hope this helps you enjoy the concept. :-)
What you could do is play a wizard "priest" who is lip service mostly all in it for the power and prestige.
Edit:
Just looked it up from 3.5 gods and magic his priests are : clerics, blackguards,diabolist mages, or thaumaturgists. So your concept will work fin with one of the last two.
Ah but Separatists are still very devote. They just have ideas outside of the standard church norms. And best ask your Gm about that archetype. Some (Like me) do not allow it.
But that does not jive with what he stated. He just seems to want to make a deal for power. Which is not what a cleric is. Kinda be neat if he went say sorcerer or something and made a deal to become one. Its just a cleric does not work that way.
I think seeker has the right of it. You can't "trick" a god into giving you spells. It simply doesn't work that way. If you want fire and trickery I would look elsewhere.
Honestly though. Go oracle. You've got your concept right there. Don't have to worship the man, you can easily deal for your power adn be inflicted with a curse to ensure you understand the terms of the contract.
Even the lord of The nine does not work that way. Clerics are a gods knights, his grand chess pieces. He does not give out that kind of power and privilege to those who do not earn it. He is more then happy to give you power in other ways, but the cleric is his most devote worshipers. They believe the party line hart and blacked , twisted soul.
You can't make a deal to be one. You most be devote enough to earn it.
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Why don't you play an oracle instead? They get divinely inspired powers, and you can do a lot of similar things, but you're freely allowed to hate the deity that granted them to you. Its a curse, and you should be mad :)
It might be but it is also in the book. A cleric is devote. If its not , then its not a cleric. Even godless clerics are devoted to something, you must be. You can't be kinda, sort of, a little bit when you feel like it devoted.
A cleric is called as much as he chooses it. Not every worshiper is devote enough to be a cleric. And it they are not then someone who isn't at all surely isn't gonna be able to pull it off. There are tones of other classes, the cleric is not for what he is trying to pull.
Why don't you play an oracle instead? They get divinely inspired powers, and you can do a lot of similar things, but you're freely allowed to hate the deity that granted them to you. Its a curse, and you should be mad :)
Looks like he just wants to be a cleric of the big A for the domains fire and trickery.
You could talk to your GM to say you want a contract with Asmodeus to gain the powers of his clerics but work it like a Paladin who is bound to a code. Unfortunately, should you violate the contract you would lose all Cleric abilities.
Ya know clerics also have a code right?
Eh, the description says their domain establishes their values but if you look at the domains themselves there is nothing listed as far as values go. That's a lot of gray area. What I propose would allow a character to have cleric abilities, be beholden to a specific code and not require them to be "all hail, Asmodeus!." Since he is all about contracts it sounds like something that would be right up his alley.
Ex-ClericsA cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
Seriously how can anyone miss this?
They already follow a code. It is up to the GM to define it.
People always skip that part. Always and try to act like they are wizards and not held to a standard like a paladin. The only difference is the book gives you the paladins code word for word. A cleric has one code for every single god.
Now, my question is: How much do I actually have to "worship" Asmodeus to pull off being his Cleric, getting my daily spells, and not be lynched by fellow Asmodeites? Can I basically despise him privately (or even semi-publicly, such as in front of friends)? Can I actively oppose the workings of the Church of Asmodeus that I don't agree with? Can I basically keep my "contract" with Asmodeus "purely business"?Also, how likely is Asmodeus to notice? Not at all? If so, would he — if anything — commend me on following his example on how to abuse contracts for one's own benefit? ;)
I think you'd be free to worship Asmodeus for your own purposes. That sounds right in line with the ambition you'd see in that most diabolical of religions. You certainly could despise him in private, though I expect the church would be strict enough to mandate (and have inquisitors enough to enforce) general doctrinal fidelity in your duties and in public. Break that and prepare to be branded a heretic. The aftermath of that will almost certainly not be pretty. This ain't no religion founded on personal morality and freedom. This is an iron-fisted hierarchy. That said, focusing on one aspect of the church's mission without opposing the others would probably be fine. That's a pretty common occurrence in most real religions. I don't see why it wouldn't be one in fantasy religion.
If you travel this route, before you get all self-congratulatory about abusing your contract with Asmodeus, remember that he's been at this longer than you. He's smarter than you. And no matter what you do, once you kick the bucket your soul is his for eternity. He may indulge you for a while for his own amusement, but expect him to notice everything you do. He is a god after all.
If you can use stuff from 3.5, the Power of Faerun book had the feat Heretic of the Faith.
It lets you be up to two alignment steps away from your diety's, and you can grossly violate your deity's code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities.
Then a contract sounds like the perfect plot device for a cleric of Asmodeus, no? Then, anything outside of the bounds of the contract the cleric is free to do. Going over such a contract with the GM would give the plot hook the OP is looking for. They don't have to be completely sold to Asmodeus as long as they abide by the contract (which contracts are his realm so this makes complete sense).
Then a contract sounds like the perfect plot device for a cleric of Asmodeus, no? Then, anything outside of the bounds of the contract the cleric is free to do. Going over such a contract with the GM would give the plot hook the OP is looking for. They don't have to be completely sold to Asmodeus as long as they abide by the contract (which contracts are his realm so this makes complete sense).
And also sounds nothing like a cleric.
That line of thinking is already pretty good adn covered in three other classes. Oracles, Witches, and potentially Sorcerer's.
That's true. However, the OP wants to feel as if they're pulling a fast one over on a God. I would do this as a GM. But, since it's Asmodeus, the contract would be particularly biting and rigid.
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If the cleric is sending souls to hells with regularity, i think asmodues will not care if he do for conviction or convenience.
Ex-ClericsA cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
Seriously how can anyone miss this?
They already follow a code. It is up to the GM to define it.
And people get sent to hell without any clerics being involved at all.
Asmodeus is more than the state patrolman on the highway to hell. He is all about order, in the strictest, most oppressive way. Happiness is mandatory, worship is mandatory, power is the reward. His most faithful worshipers become clerics, others he may have uses for in other dealings, but only his most loyal followers are worthy of doing his divine work.
"pulling a fast one" on the god of trickery and contracts at level one is pretty much up there with playing a Desnan slaver cleric.
If the cleric is sending souls to hells with regularity, i think asmodues will not care if he do for conviction or convenience.
Ex-ClericsA cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
Seriously how can anyone miss this?
They already follow a code. It is up to the GM to define it.
And people get sent to hell without any clerics being involved at all.
Asmodeus is more than the state patrolman on the highway to hell. He is all about order, in the strictest, most oppressive way. Happiness is mandatory, worship is mandatory, is most faithful worshipers become clerics, others may have uses for him in other dealings, but only his most loyal followers are worthy of doing his divine work.
"pulling a fast one" on the god of trickery and contracts at level one is pretty much up there with playing a Desnan slaver cleric.
Hey, the cleric is LN so he can support order and oppresion. And besides, how many Arcdevil do not despise Asmodeus?.
If the cleric do not allow his feelings dominate him and make him behave in a way contrary to the nine hells goals then I do not see any problem with him.
His archdukes don't have levels in cleric of asmodeus.
Yeah the idea you can be a cleric of a god and not devote is ..well silly is being nice. You must be devote to be a cleric of something. If you dislike a god you can not be his cleric.
Asmodeus is not gonna waste the power of a cleric on someone not devoted to him. He needs servants who willing spread his word and act as his pawns in his interest.
Would you give someone power who didn't like you? Someone acting in your name? Of corse not, there is no reason to as you can find a real servant that does far better then a fake one.
Read Up on him in pathfinder. He is a full god. He has plenty of sevents who pay lip service and serve out of greed or lust for power. But those are not Clerics.
Clerics must be devoted heart and soul to what ever it is idea or god that makes them clerics. You simply can not be a cleric with no real faith or shaky faith or "lip service" faith
That is what makes it a cleric.
Yes but you would house rule it( not that I care for houseruleing things). As it stands a cleric must be devote the is the base requirement of the class.
I just get amused when people side step built in class limitations and act like they did no such thing.
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Looks like he just wants to be a cleric of the big A for the domains fire and trickery.
No, I was toying with the character concept because it sounded like a unique and fun opportunity to play a Cleric of an evil deity. I've played good Clerics (and Oracles) before, and this would be something refreshingly different. I also don't want to play a plainly evil character. I'm trying to find a way for a Cleric to be LN and still not see a problem with serving the Evil Lord of the Nine Hells. (Seriously, how does that fit together...?)
Asmodeus is not gonna waste the power of a cleric on someone not devoted to him. He needs servants who willing spread his word and act as his pawns in his interest.
Actually, that's not the vibe I get from Golarion. It feels like the gods are very remote from the world and hardly ever interact with mortals. I doubt they watch the fingers of everybody that bears their holy symbol. They'd have to cause quite a stir on the mortal plane for a god to notice.
But yes, I see how it is an incredibly foolish thing to do to try to trick the god of trickery and contracts out of a contract. :P Such a character is doomed to serve Asmodeus with a vengeance in the afterlife.
On the other hand, there are Clerics that serve principles, such as Law, rather than gods. Could such a Cleric pretend to be a Cleric of Asmodeus so as to fit into Chelaxian society? I suppose I couldn't get access to the Trickery and Fire domains, though.
But you are still over looking the main requirement to be a cleric is absolute devotion and faith. Your concept lacks that. Run it by your Gm but you are talking about a faith-less cleric. Best off playing another class and just being a priest.
And In golarion, No there is no such thing as a concept cleric. You need a god, demonlord arch duke or something to grant you power. God-less clerics do not work in the setting.
Hmm... I wonder what part of misleading the lord of trickery and contracts does not seem wise to me.
You could be devoted to Asmodeus, but your idea of who/what Asmodeus is and what it means to worship him could be different from the cultural norm. For example, you could believe that Asmodeus is about the light of fire and the pain of truth correcting the wickedness and corruption of the world. You could sneer at and disdain the decedent and power hungry orthodox church as being ripe targets for the light bringer.
That doesn't really work in a world where you can literally just ask the big man yourself once you reach level 9. If the high priests have a disagreement over some issue, they are just a simple Commune away from the answer.
And In golarion, No there is no such thing as a concept cleric. You need a god, demonlord arch duke or something to grant you power. God-less clerics do not work in the setting.
Of all these only a demonlord would let a less than devout player access it's power, but even then it'd be just to stir the pot.
Which might be what the OP needs. Of course the demonlord will try to drag the PC further into it's own schemes. Or just drop them at a crucial moment just to enjoy them squirm before it claims a new soul.
So basically Starscream.
That brought a laugh.
"Devout"
"Devoted"
Spelling people.
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Everis Cale hated his god Mask. But Everis followed Mask to further Everiss' goals. Mask gave Everis power to further Masks goals.
Sounds like a good role playing opportunity, but dont play the style just to be difficult, and dont think that the moment you need water breathing your god wont let you drown.
Seems simple enough to me. Your character makes a deal with the devil-- "give me the powers of a cleric in your church in exchange for my soul."
Then it makes sense that your character would despise Asmodeus because he has come to regret the deal he made, but doesn't really have a reason to give up the powers of a cleric now since that's not going to get his soul back.
... my question is: How much do I actually have to "worship" Asmodeus to pull off being his Cleric, getting my daily spells, and not be lynched by fellow Asmodeites? Can I basically despise him privately (or even semi-publicly, such as in front of friends)? Can I actively oppose the workings of the Church of Asmodeus that I don't agree with? Can I basically keep my "contract" with Asmodeus "purely business"?
Also, how likely is Asmodeus to notice? Not at all? If so, would he — if anything — commend me on following his example on how to abuse contracts for one's own benefit? ;)
I'm going to disagree with many of the posters. I think some of it is very doable and some of it is not.
I don't think Asmodeus gives a rat's carp what you feel privately. However, publicly you must toe the line. He is very much for order. The only way you could oppose any of the church workings would be legitimately. You would have to find evidence in the church cannon (or at least gray areas) and then convince those above you in the hirarchy. Will he notice? Yes. Will he care? Not as long as you toe the line. Abusing contracts for you own benefit? Great, but remember the contract's for Asmodeus are written by the ultimate lawyer. You won't easily find many loopholes to weasel around in.In the end, it is up to the GM. Many will not want the headache of trying to define the church cannon in detail so you can try to find the loopholes to exploit.
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Alright, let's leave away the "insincere" part, then.
Let's assume the Cleric thinks "this Asmodeus guy might be a bastard, but by the Nine, he sure knows how to run a hierarchy". He respects him for the Lawful part, and while he doesn't care for the Evil part, he sees it as a necessary evil, so to speak... in his eyes, Cheliax would be worse off without him. He's not working against A-dawg, just picking a part to play in His Great Engine that he doesn't find distasteful.
Does that work?
Does any Cleric of Asmodeus automatically end up damned to hell? Why would anyone (especially someone with a high Wisdom) ever become one, then?
Does any Cleric of Asmodeus automatically end up damned to hell? Why would anyone (especially someone with a high Wisdom) ever become one, then?
Pathfinder Hell isn't Christian Hell. It's not a place of punishment. It's just a lawful evil plane.
I think this is the unfortunate result of trying to pick a cleric by grabbing the domains you want for mechanical reasons and trying to back them up by stretching the roleplaying to fit. You may find it easier to go the other way around. Clerics just don't work that well if you go this route