
Sir Jolt |

It's not my fault the crafting abilities are what they are and all that they require is a fraction of the cost to make an item. Paizo wrote it that way.
This will be a great quote for the other thread for the guy who wanted a more clear definition of when something was cheese.
There are a million things the rules don't specifically state are wrong (generally because they didn't think they had to) but that doesn't mean they should be allowed.
Allowing "X" because they rules don't specifically spell out that you can't breaks every aspect of the game.
In my next game I'm going to start with a Death Star (TM). The rules don't specifically say that I can't. It doesn't count against WBL because the rules don't specifically state that a 'fully armed and operational battle station' is wealth. I don't even need a crafting feat because, by the RAW, a Death Star (TM) has no listed value (unless I want an adamantine one in which case I'll need 3000 gold...apparently). You can't play your game your way anymore because I just destroyed all the worlds that operate that way. The rules don't specifically say I can't do that. Don't blame me for it. Paizo wrote it that way.

mdt |

mdt wrote:All these complicated immersion breaking rules (such as, I magically lose all my equipment every few months).Magically? Did you not read my explanation of it? Or do you take issue with the idea of not roleplaying out every little wealth transaction?
Having a thief steal all the equipment every level is not a 'little wealth transaction'. Nor does it make sense that every time someone levels up a master thief comes by and steals all their equipment, and then leaves another exact set in it's place (or the money to buy/craft said replacements).
I didn't see any emoticons, but I'll assume you're usual snarky humor was the purpose of this post. :)

mdt |

@Khrysaor, re you screwed up on remembering that climb explicitly allows a take 10 even when you are in a dangerous situation like hanging from a 500 foot high cliff with no rope
I am sorry that I have not your encyclopedic rote memorization of the rules. However, nit picking aside, you ignore the fact that you still violated your own argument, which was that you had to get to level 9 to do the solo-climb, which directly violates your postulate that the Alexandrian Myth is correct that no NPC can ever be above 5th level.

![]() |

I didn't see any emoticons, but I'll assume you're usual snarky humor was the purpose of this post. :)
The WBL post or response to your critique? Because this is a serious houserule suggestion.
A master thief doesn't come along every level any more than a red dragon attacks the party every level. Those were examples. They are meant to vary. The specifics don't matter, only the fact that through the trials and tribulations of adventuring, the characters have ended up at the right amount of wealth for their level when they ding.

mdt |

mdt wrote:
I didn't see any emoticons, but I'll assume you're usual snarky humor was the purpose of this post. :)The WBL post or response to your critique? Because this is a serious houserule suggestion.
A master thief doesn't come along every level any more than a red dragon attacks the party every level. Those were examples. They are meant to vary. The specifics don't matter, only the fact that through the trials and tribulations of adventuring, the characters have ended up at the right amount of wealth for their level when they ding.
Breaks immersion for me. It's mostly the fact that all the equipment changes around. If it was 'you lose some items if you're WBL is outside of x %, or gain some wealth if it's less than x %' then it might be better, but it still breaks immersion for me.
I'd much rather just have the GM enforce WBL on newly started characters, and then adjust our treasure rewards. Leave it up to the players to decide if they're ok with the crafter having 50% more equipment while we all get 10% less. Usually, the players work out any such discrepencies themselves without too much arguing back and forth.
So far, every game I've been in has been of the type where people go 'Ok, who needs this more? Who's behind?'.
Your suggestion would work for games where people want to try to take the rest of the party for everything they can (like the rogue who steals everything he can from his fellow party members, or the mage charges 95% for crafting so he can continuously double his own WBL over and over, while keeping the rest of the party at 95% of their WBL so eh can lord it over them).
Then again, if you're going to play with people liek that above, you either are one, or you won't play with them for long, so it's not as if any rules would really help the situation.

Khrysaor |
@Khrysaor, re you screwed up on remembering that climb explicitly allows a take 10 even when you are in a dangerous situation like hanging from a 500 foot high cliff with no rope
I am sorry that I have not your encyclopedic rote memorization of the rules. However, nit picking aside, you ignore the fact that you still violated your own argument, which was that you had to get to level 9 to do the solo-climb, which directly violates your postulate that the Alexandrian Myth is correct that no NPC can ever be above 5th level.
OMFG please leave the thread. You don't read. You don't interpret. You don't understand. You complain. You criticize. You have no basis.
I did not violate anything. The essay you criticized is based off of 3.x. As per the rules in 3.x you can take 10 on climb checks but not 20. As a level 5 character you can have 8 ranks, 3 stat, 3 skill focus, Gymnastics chalk +2. This is a combined +16 for a level 5. Now you take 10 and have a total of 26. Since the DC was 25 you cilmb with no problems as a level 5 person. None of this is from memory. I used my powers of interweb surfing to go to google and type in what I was looking for. It sent me to D&DWIKI. It has all the rules from the 3.x system that I referenced. As a level 9 character you don't have to roll at all because you can never fail bad enough that you fall.
Again.... Are we done yet?
EDIT: RavingDork also proved you wrong in that you can take 10 on climbing as long as you are not being threatened. Please read the comments and understand what people are saying before you post more comments because you're mad and have a burning need to prove someone wrong.

mdt |

Oh, and it also seems to me to be a drag on character motivation. "Hmm, I really want a +3 sword, but I only have a +1 Flaming right now. Oh well, I'm gonna level soon, I'll just take that when I level and not worry about working toward it".
You also have the issue that consumables now become a much better option. I can buy a ton of potions and use them as much as I want, since the actual cost of consumables (the loss of wealth) is not being inforced for more than a few gaming sessions. It's more like being able to go to the library for your spell books rather than working on the spells themselves (Oh, that also applies to spells).
Plus it would be hard to justify if they're in the middle of a dungeon crawl if the guy suddenly loses his full plate and finds mithral full plate of speed. Especially if the dungeon is heavy in undead and his +3 Justice Mace becomes suddenly a +2 holy undead bane.

mdt |

Hmm, I'd assumed that Dork was right, and I just missed it when I glanced at my 3.5 players guide. Then I went and looked at Dork's post, and he sites the Wiki. It appears that the 'can take 10' was errata'd, as my original 3.5 players manual doesn't have that sentence in the climb skill description.
The only comment on taking ten in the skill in the book is that if you have a climb speed, you can take 10. Which implies you can't take 10 on a climb check without having a climb speed. This was the basis of my comment on 'you cannot take 10 on a climb check'. Apparently they erratad it at some point.

Khrysaor |
TOZ wrote:mdt wrote:
I didn't see any emoticons, but I'll assume you're usual snarky humor was the purpose of this post. :)The WBL post or response to your critique? Because this is a serious houserule suggestion.
A master thief doesn't come along every level any more than a red dragon attacks the party every level. Those were examples. They are meant to vary. The specifics don't matter, only the fact that through the trials and tribulations of adventuring, the characters have ended up at the right amount of wealth for their level when they ding.
Breaks immersion for me. It's mostly the fact that all the equipment changes around. If it was 'you lose some items if you're WBL is outside of x %, or gain some wealth if it's less than x %' then it might be better, but it still breaks immersion for me.
I'd much rather just have the GM enforce WBL on newly started characters, and then adjust our treasure rewards. Leave it up to the players to decide if they're ok with the crafter having 50% more equipment while we all get 10% less. Usually, the players work out any such discrepencies themselves without too much arguing back and forth.
So far, every game I've been in has been of the type where people go 'Ok, who needs this more? Who's behind?'.
Your suggestion would work for games where people want to try to take the rest of the party for everything they can (like the rogue who steals everything he can from his fellow party members, or the mage charges 95% for crafting so he can continuously double his own WBL over and over, while keeping the rest of the party at 95% of their WBL so eh can lord it over them).
Then again, if you're going to play with people liek that above, you either are one, or you won't play with them for long, so it's not as if any rules would really help the situation.
Seriously, take a step back and look at the posts everyone has made. You're insulting people for agreeing with you that WBL should be maintained for balance purposes. The problem is that a crafter, by mechanics, can get an increase in wealth above other non-crafting players. This isn't us saying it should be this way. This is us reading the rules and learning from our own in game experiences. I am not a person who just changes game mechanics because I feel they are unbalanced. We have been looking for a solution to this problem so craft feats do not affect wealth in a way that breaks balance.

Khrysaor |
Hmm, I'd assumed that Dork was right, and I just missed it when I glanced at my 3.5 players guide. Then I went and looked at Dork's post, and he sites the Wiki. It appears that the 'can take 10' was errata'd, as my original 3.5 players manual doesn't have that sentence in the climb skill description.
The only comment on taking ten in the skill in the book is that if you have a climb speed, you can take 10. Which implies you can't take 10 on a climb check without having a climb speed. This was the basis of my comment on 'you cannot take 10 on a climb check'. Apparently they erratad it at some point.
One more time it is..... You are critiquing an essay that is about the 3.0 rules. Sorry I shouldn't have stated 3.x. The essay was written about a game system that he was given to review one year prior to its release. All of his information presented is as such. You are criticizing him and his efforts, basing it on information that didn't even exist. Please read before you write.

mdt |

Wait,
Everyone in here has been applying this stupid essay to PF, and saying it should be followed like a religion, and now you want to only apply the logic to 3.0? Seriously? Seriously?
Ok, I concede that you are correct, and Alexandrian Philosphers are 100% correct. All of the essay is 100% correct.
As applied to 3.0.
It goes to garbage for 3.5 and PF. Please take any future references to the Alexandrian Texts to a 3.0 forum? Thanks.

Bob_Loblaw |

The way I control WBL is fairly simple. As I mentioned before, my players do the majority of the work by making sure that those who are falling behind get some help. The other way is that if I see them falling too far behind and I need a windfall, they may get a larger reward. They may find an item I know no one wants (unholy weapons are great for this in my games). There are lots of options. If they are too far ahead, I will add items I know no one wants (unholy items are great for this in my games). I may change the gold pieces to silver. I may add more consumables than other treasure.
The wealth by level is a solid guideline and the modules take it into account as does the CR system. It is not meant to be written in ink on your characters. It's just supposed to tell the GM that a character of level X is assumed to have roughly Y value in gear. Adjust as you need to fit your accepted power level.
Honestly, if the GM is doing his job well, the players don't ever think of WBL or how much money they have from crafting.

Buri |

This will be a great quote for the other thread for the guy who wanted a more clear definition of when something was cheese.
There are a million things the rules don't specifically state are wrong (generally because they didn't think they had to) but that doesn't mean they should be allowed.
Allowing "X" because they rules don't specifically spell out that you can't breaks every aspect of the game.
In my next game I'm going to start with a Death Star (TM). The rules don't specifically say that I can't. It doesn't count against WBL because the rules don't specifically state that a 'fully armed and operational battle station' is wealth. I don't even need a crafting feat because, by the RAW, a Death Star (TM) has no listed value (unless I want an adamantine one in which case I'll need 3000 gold...apparently). You can't play your game your way anymore because I just destroyed all the worlds that operate that way. The rules don't specifically say I can't do that. Don't blame me for it. Paizo wrote it that way.
Grats, more useless hyperbole. Hope it let's you sleep well tonight. The craft abilities explicitly state how they work. Its not some interpretation I'm using. Read the rules, bro. 2 gold stars because you're "special!" ;)

Khrysaor |
The way I control WBL is fairly simple. As I mentioned before, my players do the majority of the work by making sure that those who are falling behind get some help. The other way is that if I see them falling too far behind and I need a windfall, they may get a larger reward. They may find an item I know no one wants (unholy weapons are great for this in my games). There are lots of options. If they are too far ahead, I will add items I know no one wants (unholy items are great for this in my games). I may change the gold pieces to silver. I may add more consumables than other treasure.
The wealth by level is a solid guideline and the modules take it into account as does the CR system. It is not meant to be written in ink on your characters. It's just supposed to tell the GM that a character of level X is assumed to have roughly Y value in gear. Adjust as you need to fit your accepted power level.
Honestly, if the GM is doing his job well, the players don't ever think of WBL or how much money they have from crafting.
This is your interpretation of how to play and your players coincide with this. Doing so isn't the standard or there'd be no one saying anything here. And the fact still remains that a crafter, by mechanics, can generate wealth over that of non-crafters. If this is done in game how does a GM balance this without providing more benefit to the non-crafters to balance the wealth again while not giving the crafter more. The mechanics don't solve themself without players and their GM balancing things.
Rules are meant to be objective and not subjective. Especially if non variance is supposed to be kept.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor, I think you need to take a step back, breathe, and do something else. Your posts are going to end up moderated and you're accomplishing nothing here.
How do you figure? I'm not mad. I'm just annoyed to repeatedly have to point out that someone is arguing against me for something I never said. I'm more annoyed that someone would choose to critique something from years ago against standards that didn't exist when it was written. I haven't said anything offensive to get moderated. I'm not the one trolling.

mdt |

Your suggestion would work for games where people want to try to take the rest of the party for everything they can (like the rogue who steals everything he can from his fellow party members, or the mage charges 95% for crafting so he can continuously double his own WBL over and over, while keeping the rest of the party at 95% of their WBL so eh can lord it over them).Then again, if you're going to play with people liek that above, you either are one, or you won't play with them for long, so it's not as if any rules would really help the situation.
Just to be clear, the above was not meant in any way to say that TOZ is such a player or person. This type of toxic atmosphere is simply the only sort of game where I can see the solution being the optimal one is all.
So no insults intended one way or the other.

Bob_Loblaw |

Bob_Loblaw wrote:The way I control WBL is fairly simple. As I mentioned before, my players do the majority of the work by making sure that those who are falling behind get some help. The other way is that if I see them falling too far behind and I need a windfall, they may get a larger reward. They may find an item I know no one wants (unholy weapons are great for this in my games). There are lots of options. If they are too far ahead, I will add items I know no one wants (unholy items are great for this in my games). I may change the gold pieces to silver. I may add more consumables than other treasure.
The wealth by level is a solid guideline and the modules take it into account as does the CR system. It is not meant to be written in ink on your characters. It's just supposed to tell the GM that a character of level X is assumed to have roughly Y value in gear. Adjust as you need to fit your accepted power level.
Honestly, if the GM is doing his job well, the players don't ever think of WBL or how much money they have from crafting.
This is your interpretation of how to play and your players coincide with this. Doing so isn't the standard or there'd be no one saying anything here. And the fact still remains that a crafter, by mechanics, can generate wealth over that of non-crafters. If this is done in game how does a GM balance this without providing more benefit to the non-crafters to balance the wealth again while not giving the crafter more. The mechanics don't solve themself without players and their GM balancing things.
Rules are meant to be objective and not subjective. Especially if non variance is supposed to be kept.
Actually it is pretty standard. You may play differently but nothing I said was out of the ordinary and is precisely what the book says to do.
Some rules, especially those in role playing games, are meant to be flexible and sometime subjective. They can't cover more than a small portion of what could happen. They need interpretation.
When we get to something like wealth, it is impossible to make it 100% objective. The moment someone drinks a potion, fires an arrow, or uses a scroll, the wealth changes. The guideline is not a fixed value. It is a general value that the GM should work toward keeping close to. How close will vary from game to game. At no point is anyone saying that the wealth should be Sharpied on a character sheet.
Most of us take many things into account, like character XP. As the characters gain XP, they also gain wealth. The transition is easy to calculate but isn't really necessary. I do it because I like organic growth more than lump sums being dropped in the characters' laps.
Most games are very casual. I would venture that most gamers don't even go to the forums for their favorite games. You and I are not the standard gamer. Most players play these games as cooperative games and will naturally level things on their own. I know this to be true bcause I have witnessed it with hundreds of players from around the world. Most of these people are gaming with friends and they don't like to see friends struggle. People have an innate sense of fairness.
Your way isn't, by default, the right way no matter how much you act like it is. There are plenty of other ways and it is entirely possible that your way isn't "right" by the rules. I put that in quotes because I don't mean to say badwrong. I do mean that you could be the one misinterpreting things.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:Bob_Loblaw wrote:The way I control WBL is fairly simple. As I mentioned before, my players do the majority of the work by making sure that those who are falling behind get some help. The other way is that if I see them falling too far behind and I need a windfall, they may get a larger reward. They may find an item I know no one wants (unholy weapons are great for this in my games). There are lots of options. If they are too far ahead, I will add items I know no one wants (unholy items are great for this in my games). I may change the gold pieces to silver. I may add more consumables than other treasure.
The wealth by level is a solid guideline and the modules take it into account as does the CR system. It is not meant to be written in ink on your characters. It's just supposed to tell the GM that a character of level X is assumed to have roughly Y value in gear. Adjust as you need to fit your accepted power level.
Honestly, if the GM is doing his job well, the players don't ever think of WBL or how much money they have from crafting.
This is your interpretation of how to play and your players coincide with this. Doing so isn't the standard or there'd be no one saying anything here. And the fact still remains that a crafter, by mechanics, can generate wealth over that of non-crafters. If this is done in game how does a GM balance this without providing more benefit to the non-crafters to balance the wealth again while not giving the crafter more. The mechanics don't solve themself without players and their GM balancing things.
Rules are meant to be objective and not subjective. Especially if non variance is supposed to be kept.
Actually it is pretty standard. You may play differently but nothing I said was out of the ordinary and is precisely what the book says to do.
Some rules, especially those in role playing games, are meant to be flexible and sometime subjective. They can't cover more than a small portion of what could happen. They need...
If something is your experience, it doesn't make it standard. Like I said, if it was standard and this all balanced out there would be no debate here. Everyone would be in agreement. As it stands there are people arguing for both sides.
I never said my way is right. In fact my way is almost identical to yours and players will help each other and things will balance out. I just quoted the rules that govern this situation as pertaining to this thread. Just because your experience is that these quotes aren't right doesn't mean that the quotes, that are the rules from the book, aren't right.
I also wouldn't say that most gamers don't venture into the forums. I just think that most of them don't post for fear of scrutiny or intimidation. I know a lot of people that read forums and never post.

Troubleshooter |

If a player comes into play at a higher level and crafting feats and wants to use it to craft items, keep in mind that they would not have come across literally exactly that amount of gold in their journeys; in their adventures, they would instead have come across a mixture of equipment and gold. As such, I recommend you say that a certain percentage of their wealth is actually equipment, and the remaining percentage is the actual money that they can then double their wealth from.

Talonhawke |

Just to point out for those that are thinking that crafting is fine for breaking WBL how do you feel about the Gunsmithing feat which can make a character 400g a day as long as he has 100 to start with.
He can without even a check make 40 silver bullets a day for 100g then sell them for half their worth and get 500 for a 400g profit. Given a 2week pregame craft time nets the guy 5600 gold and he only has to roll avg on his 5d6x10 starting gold to be able to do this.

Khrysaor |
Just to point out for those that are thinking that crafting is fine for breaking WBL how do you feel about the Gunsmithing feat which can make a character 400g a day as long as he has 100 to start with.
He can without even a check make 40 silver bullets a day for 100g then sell them for half their worth and get 500 for a 400g profit. Given a 2week pregame craft time nets the guy 5600 gold and he only has to roll avg on his 5d6x10 starting gold to be able to do this.
And how do you feel about the same guy crafting that in game and having the same amount as if you let him craft pre-game? It seems that some people are saying it's fine to do so in game but pregame is broken. I don't get how both aren't broken if the character is exceeding WBL.

Buri |

Just to point out for those that are thinking that crafting is fine for breaking WBL how do you feel about the Gunsmithing feat which can make a character 400g a day as long as he has 100 to start with.
He can without even a check make 40 silver bullets a day for 100g then sell them for half their worth and get 500 for a 400g profit. Given a 2week pregame craft time nets the guy 5600 gold and he only has to roll avg on his 5d6x10 starting gold to be able to do this.
I'm not going to fact check this but if that's what the rules say then that's how it is. Its up to the GM to mitigate the effect on the game world if they wish to do so but its legit otherwise.

Khrysaor |
If a player comes into play at a higher level and crafting feats and wants to use it to craft items, keep in mind that they would not have come across literally exactly that amount of gold in their journeys; in their adventures, they would instead have come across a mixture of equipment and gold. As such, I recommend you say that a certain percentage of their wealth is actually equipment, and the remaining percentage is the actual money that they can then double their wealth from.
I suggested the same thing before and it was deemed this isn't the path we should go and sticking to WBL is the way so we aren't using fiat.

Talonhawke |

Doesn't happen in my games my players know that I constantly measure how easy things are and adjust CRs as needed if they are steamrolling things of their level they know they are getting less xp. Which in turn balances out when they have to fight encounters at lower levels where they might no have the spells to fix the damage on their own and end up having to sell off stuff or live with negative levels for a few sessions.

Ravingdork |

Hmm, I'd assumed that Dork was right, and I just missed it when I glanced at my 3.5 players guide. Then I went and looked at Dork's post, and he sites the Wiki. It appears that the 'can take 10' was errata'd, as my original 3.5 players manual doesn't have that sentence in the climb skill description.
The only comment on taking ten in the skill in the book is that if you have a climb speed, you can take 10. Which implies you can't take 10 on a climb check without having a climb speed. This was the basis of my comment on 'you cannot take 10 on a climb check'. Apparently they erratad it at some point.
You have me confused with someone else as I never have and never will site that wiki.

Buri |

Doesn't happen in my games my players know that I constantly measure how easy things are and adjust CRs as needed if they are steamrolling things of their level they know they are getting less xp. Which in turn balances out when they have to fight encounters at lower levels where they might no have the spells to fix the damage on their own and end up having to sell off stuff or live with negative levels for a few sessions.
Woah dude. That's pretty heavy handed treatment for just using abilities in the book and resources you provide them with in the first place. Sounds like you dictate to your players rather than working with them. Christ.

Khrysaor |
mdt wrote:You have me confused with someone else as I never have and never will site that wiki.Hmm, I'd assumed that Dork was right, and I just missed it when I glanced at my 3.5 players guide. Then I went and looked at Dork's post, and he sites the Wiki. It appears that the 'can take 10' was errata'd, as my original 3.5 players manual doesn't have that sentence in the climb skill description.
The only comment on taking ten in the skill in the book is that if you have a climb speed, you can take 10. Which implies you can't take 10 on a climb check without having a climb speed. This was the basis of my comment on 'you cannot take 10 on a climb check'. Apparently they erratad it at some point.
Nor was anyone quoting in this thread that that essay had any relavence to pathfinder. But I'm never right.

Talonhawke |

Talonhawke wrote:Doesn't happen in my games my players know that I constantly measure how easy things are and adjust CRs as needed if they are steamrolling things of their level they know they are getting less xp. Which in turn balances out when they have to fight encounters at lower levels where they might no have the spells to fix the damage on their own and end up having to sell off stuff or live with negative levels for a few sessions.Woah dude. That's pretty heavy handed treatment for just using abilities in the book and resources you provide them with in the first place. Sounds like you dictate to your players rather than working with them. Christ.
Challenge Rating (or CR) is a convenient number used to indicate the relative danger presented by a monster, trap, hazard, or other encounter—the higher the CR, the more dangerous the encounter. Refer to Table: Encounter Design to determine the Challenge Rating your group should face, depending on the difficulty of the challenge you want and the group's APL.
If your not bing challenged its not worth as much xp. And the BBEG doesn't put his plans on hold simply because you haven't leveled. It's not heavy handed heavy handed would be me simply saying you can't ever have more gold than the WBL chart or simply making the treasue be such that it wonderously works out to be the chart.
If you play under me know that i don't care if your a bit above or behind but when things aren't a danger to your group they aren't their listed CR when it comes to your party.
As for working with them considering i have had the same relitive group for close to 10 years i figure i doing pretty good.

Buri |

Challenge Rating (or CR) is a convenient number used to indicate the relative danger presented by a monster, trap, hazard, or other encounter—the higher the CR, the more dangerous the encounter. Refer to Table: Encounter Design to determine the Challenge Rating your group should face, depending on the difficulty of the challenge you want and the group's APL.
If your not bing challenged its not worth as much xp. And the BBEG doesn't put his plans on hold simply because you haven't leveled. It's not heavy handed heavy handed would be me simply saying you can't ever have more gold than the WBL chart or simply making the treasue be such that it wonderously works out to be the chart.
If you play under me know that i don't care if your a bit above or behind but when things aren't a danger to your group they aren't their listed CR when it comes to your party.
As for working with them considering i have had the same relitive group for close to 10 years i figure i doing pretty good.
An encounter of a certain CR awards the same amount of experience regardless if the group wipes the floor with them or almost TPKs from the event. If you're talking about the APL - CR >= 10 thing, then ya, but generally speaking they should get XP every time.
Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR, regardless of the level of the party in relation to the challenge, although you should never bother awarding XP for challenges that have a CR of 10 or more lower than the APL.
You play how you play but to say "if I don't think they're challenged then they don't get xp" is kinda harsh.

Aranna |

I am sorry Khrysaor but the only fair thing to do is use WBL for starting characters... no crafting allowed till play. Unless you can get your group to all agree on what house ruled allowances a crafter should get then it is best to stick to the rules as intended. And the intention of that table was to clearly spell out how much stuff you start with. If you TRULY want to craft that badly just start with the crafting supplies for the gear you want and spend your first few adventures crafting up the gear as was intended.
PS: Doesn't everyone use the crafting level restrictions?! If not then you have a bigger problem than WBL.
PPS: I am sorry my extreme example earlier ruffled so many feathers. I was deliberately using an extreme example to showcase why ignoring WBL and allowing crafting pregame start could be wildly abused. Which my example does prove regardless of the little nitpicking attacks.

Talonhawke |

Doesn't happen in my games my players know that I constantly measure how easy things are and adjust CRs as needed if they are steamrolling things of their level they know they are getting less xp. Which in turn balances out when they have to fight encounters at lower levels where they might no have the spells to fix the damage on their own and end up having to sell off stuff or live with negative levels for a few sessions. Challenge Rating (or CR) is a convenient number used to indicate the relative danger presented by a monster, trap, hazard, or other encounter—the higher the CR, the more dangerous the encounter. Refer to Table: Encounter Design to determine the Challenge Rating your group should face, depending on the difficulty of the challenge you want and the group's APL.
If your not bing challenged its not worth as much xp. And the BBEG doesn't put his plans on hold simply because you haven't leveled. It's not heavy handed heavy handed would be me simply saying you can't ever have more gold than the WBL chart or simply making the treasue be such that it wonderously works out to be the chart.
If you play under me know that i don't care if your a bit above or behind but when things aren't a danger to your group they aren't their listed CR when it comes to your party.
As for working with them considering i have had the same relitive group for close to 10 years i figure i doing pretty good.
Nowhere did i say no XP i said less and not as much. Thats a huge difference you'll get exp based off of how much of a challenge it is.
I check about halfway through a level and see how the party handles 5 CR encounters if they putter out at 2 or 3 then i adjust CR upwards and/or use enemies with higher loot amounts for a few fights, if they aren't even sweating at 5 then i adjust CR downwards and/or use more enemies with lower loot tables. No matter what you get xp but a party who is level 5 and is walking with impunity through a AP that they are a the right point for shouldn't be leveling up at the same rate as a party who is barely coming out of each fight alive.
Now if the problem is a single player then I'll pull them aside and the two of us will talk about how to tone them down so that everyone else can also have fun.

Buri |

I am sorry Khrysaor but the only fair thing to do is use WBL for starting characters... no crafting allowed till play. Unless you can get your group to all agree on what house ruled allowances a crafter should get then it is best to stick to the rules as intended. And the intention of that table was to clearly spell out how much stuff you start with. If you TRULY want to craft that badly just start with the crafting supplies for the gear you want and spend your first few adventures crafting up the gear as was intended.
PS: Doesn't everyone use the crafting level restrictions?! If not then you have a bigger problem than WBL.
PPS: I am sorry my extreme example earlier ruffled so many feathers. I was deliberately using an extreme example to showcase why ignoring WBL and allowing crafting pregame start could be wildly abused. Which my example does prove regardless of the little nitpicking attacks.
The CL listed on an item was essentially negated. The devs said as much when they stated all a character needs to craft an item is to meet the stated conditions in the prerequisites block of an item. As long as you can cast any relevant spells and have the required feats you can craft the item even if you you're lower than the CL on the item. All CL determines is how easy it is to use dispell against an item's effects. You can choose to create an item at a lower caster level so long it's of sufficient level to cast the most powerful spell required to create the item. You can likewise choose to set the CL of the item as high as your total caster levels even if it's higher than the listed CL of the item.
Source:
For many items, the CL provides no benefit except resistance to dispel attempts. A bag of holding is an example of this... its powers aren't based on CL. Thus, the wiz17 could make his bag at CL 9th (the default), CL17th (his own CL), or anything in between. I probably wouldn't let him make it at CL 1st, as secret chest requires CL 9th and the item is based on that, but if he really wanted to I supposed I'd let him. None of these choices affect the price, cost, time, or craft DC in any way, because the CL doesn't affect the item's abilities.
For other items, the CL does actually play a role in the item's effects--a generic necklace of fireballs has a default CL of 10th because two varieties include fireball-beads that deal 10d6 damage (just like a CL 10th fireball does). If you wanted to make a type VI or VII necklace (which have fireballs of this power), you should *require* the crafter set the CL to 10th. However, if you're just making a type I necklace (max 5d6 fireball), there's no reason you couldn't just set the item's CL to 5th because it doesn't need to be more than that. And if you're a wiz20 and wanted to be a weirdo and make a type I necklace that's CL 20th, you could, but unless you're paying the extra gold for this increase to change the d6s of the item, that CL is basically irrelevant and I wouldn't have it effect the crafting DC.
For the pearl of power, I agree that in an ideal situation, each type of pearl would have its own CL listed (based on the min level to actually cast that sort of spell), and likewise each type of necklace of fireballs would have its own CL. And while the pearl sort of straddles the line between category 1 (CL is irrelevant because a CL 20th 1st-level pearl isn't any better at recalling spells than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl) and category 2 (in that the spell level of the pearl implies a minimum CL), in terms of its cost, price, and time, the CL difference for a pearl of the same spell level is essentially irrelevant and would almost never be a factor in any campaign (only if someone is specifically trying to temporarily nullify the powers of a pearl, which I've *never* seen happen). It shouldn't be harder to craft the "better" high-CL 1st-level pearl because it isn't really any better than the low-CL 1st-level pearl.
So if the question is, "should a CL 17th 1st-level pearl have a higher crafting DC than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl?" then the answer is "no, because the difference between the two is essentially negligible." Both cost 1000gp, both recall a 1st-level spell. Likewise with a bag of holding... the CL doesn't affect its abilities, so a wiz17 could set the CL to 17th if he wanted to, without changing the crafting DC at all.
Asking the same question about something where the CL *does* matter (like a wand of fireball), I would make the crafting check higher, because that CL actually reflects a significant change in the item's power. A wiz5 trying to make a CL 10th wand of fireball doesn't have the prerequisite to cast a 10d6 fireball, so him trying to make a wand of that should be harder than making a 5d6 wand... and this is reflected in the cost of the item (a 10d6 wand costs more than a 5d6 wand). It *should* be harder for that wizard to make the better wand because the wand really is better than the other wand.
TLDR:
1 )If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, don't make it harder for the crafter (by increasing the crafting DC) for that increase in CL, any more than you'd make it harder if they want a blue magical cloak instead of a red magical cloak.
2) If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, let the crafter create it at their own CL instead of the default.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1tlu?Magic-Item-Creation-and-Caster-Lev el#14

Khrysaor |
I am sorry Khrysaor but the only fair thing to do is use WBL for starting characters... no crafting allowed till play. Unless you can get your group to all agree on what house ruled allowances a crafter should get then it is best to stick to the rules as intended. And the intention of that table was to clearly spell out how much stuff you start with. If you TRULY want to craft that badly just start with the crafting supplies for the gear you want and spend your first few adventures crafting up the gear as was intended.
PS: Doesn't everyone use the crafting level restrictions?! If not then you have a bigger problem than WBL.
PPS: I am sorry my extreme example earlier ruffled so many feathers. I was deliberately using an extreme example to showcase why ignoring WBL and allowing crafting pregame start could be wildly abused. Which my example does prove regardless of the little nitpicking attacks.
I never said I was arguing for pre-game crafting. I said WBL doesn't account for craft feats until you're in game. At which point you can craft til your hearts content and break WBL. Only seemed logical that if you can break a system in-game you can do so likewise pre-game. This should be monitored so munchkins don't excel at what the do but if rules support this who am I to eliminate it entirely. The devs created a fun game and I try to follow the rules they've written instead of house ruling everything.
I'm all for balance contrary to popular belief. I just don't think gm fiat trumps rules and mechanics. If there can be variation in a guideline where players should be 'roughly equal' how much is this variation? Through crafting a character can increase his wealth above his average companion that more than likely doesn't craft. How is this accounted for in the WBL table?
If feats are intended to be static bonuses or scale positively how are crafting feats doing so by removing the benefits of craft feats when everyone has equal wealth and can pick any item they want at character creation when these are the bonuses the feats provide?
I've never asked anyone to agree to this so players can break the system. I just was hoping it would be acknowledged as an issue that needs to be addressed so we don't have to force WBL as an official rule. Since WBL can equally be twice as high for everyone, the numbers listed are merely a guide for maintaining balance for CR purposes. That is the main use of the tool for GMs. Players can easily exceed these values within the mechanics of the game and a campaign can remain relevant with some extra work from the GM to create tougher encounters. Adding an extra monster to an encounter ins trivial. Increasing a monsters up is trivial. Likewise to any other stat.

Khrysaor |
You can take offense if you wish, you are a free human being. Flag my posts if you think they are insulting.
I described hypothetical players who made a game environment toxic (and did NOT say you were one. In fact, you were not even being replied to), and stated that the only way to be in such a game is if you are one of the toxic people, or that you are going to leave before long. I stand behind that.
As to being applicable to PF, Ashiel, AlienFreak, and several others have stated that Alexandrian model applies to PF and 3.5 Whether you did or not, other people have, which is why I didn't say 'You said it applied', I probably should have said 'Some People'.
However, regardless of that, why would you even bring up Alexandrian Text in a PF forum then, if you are not applying it to PF? That's a logical inconsistency.
How was it when I took offense you came up with names of people, 'and others', from this thread that argued for this. Yet searching this thread for the names you mention, 'and other', posters claiming that your argument has proof it only leads me back to your post?

Khrysaor |
Forced adherence to WBL assumes the devs didn't know what they were doing when it came to crafting so we should follow assumed RAI. Why would the devs know what they were doing when they made the game? Why would the devs model crafting on a real world idea where people practice to make money? Why haven't the devs changed the mechanics for crafting even though it makes crafters money which could push a PC beyond the WBL?

Talonhawke |

Forced adherence to WBL assumes the devs didn't know what they were doing when it came to crafting so we should follow my assumed RAI. Why would the devs know what they were doing when they made the game? Why would the devs model crafting on a real world idea where people practice to make money? Why haven't the devs changed the mechanics for crafting even though it makes crafters money which could push a PC beyond the WBL?
Then whats your soulution you keep asking everyone else theirs whats yours. Your assumed RAI is no more logical or useful than anything else.
Oh and crafting isn't modeled after anything real world its based of cost. Magic items i can sorta see taking longer based on cost but mundane crafting causes and items market value to determine how long it takes to make not its complexity. To put it in its extremes i can make unlimited clubs in a day I cannot however make two spoons one of iron and one of gold in the same amount of time the gold one will take longer simply because it cost more.
The reason nothing has changed is because .........wait for it.........
Nothing is broken if you keep the players as the core rules state
The game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.
So ask your self what is Roughly Equal
guess what at lower levels double might be roughly but at around 5th or 6h level and extra 10-16k is not roughly equal.
Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level
Nothing about crafting in this at all which means that you need to be close not dead on to the copper but within around 10-15% i would say. And before you say it [b] no the lack of anything about crafting IS NOT the rules saying thats its cool the rules are more about what you can do than what you can't.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:Forced adherence to WBL assumes the devs didn't know what they were doing when it came to crafting so we should follow assumed RAI. Why would the devs know what they were doing when they made the game? Why would the devs model crafting on a real world idea where people practice to make money? Why haven't the devs changed the mechanics for crafting even though it makes crafters money which could push a PC beyond the WBL?Then whats your soulution you keep asking everyone else theirs whats yours. Your assumed RAI is no more logical or useful than anything else.
Oh and crafting isn't modeled after anything real world its based of cost. Magic items i can sorta see taking longer based on cost but mundane crafting causes and items market value to determine how long it takes to make not its complexity. To put it in its extremes i can make unlimited clubs in a day I cannot however make two spoons one of iron and one of gold in the same amount of time the gold one will take longer simply because it cost more.
The reason nothing has changed is because .........wait for it.........
Nothing is broken if you keep the players as the core rules state
The game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.
So ask your self what is Roughly Equal
guess what at lower levels double might be roughly but at around 5th or 6h level and extra 10-16k is not roughly equal.
Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level
Nothing about crafting in this at all which means that you need to be close not dead on to the copper but within around 10-15% i would say. And before you say it [b] no the lack of anything about crafting IS NOT the rules saying thats its cool the rules are more about what you can do than what you can't.
Try to counter the same argument with a core rule, not using the WBL that is a guideline. Rules trump guidelines. Specific trumps general.
I suggested to remove the wealth factor from crafting so it only provides the getting what item you want benefit. This entirely mitigates the wealth gained and as such WBL is applicable. Unfortunately people just like making money crafting too much so this was shot down. Even the people that want WBL to be the deciding factor, as their games don't find the same variance the rules allow. Purely a human factor and not a game mechanic that levels this.
Crafting is modelled after the real world. Where did the idea of crafting come from if not the real world. It's the pricing that doesn't follow real world economics. This was streamlined for ease of use and to keep things simple. I don't imagine many people would play if they had to do complex arithmetic to play.
Here's the line of thinking you need for this. Crafting affects wealth. Wealth affects WBL. Crafting affects WBL.
And with a 10-15% variance that scales as you level could still be grossly exaggerated at higher levels. It doesn't remain a static value unless you use GM fiat to say it remains a static value. Crafting scales as you level in accordance to your WBL. The limiting factor to this is time and the 0% profit from selling items you craft. WBL is not a limiting factor. It scales non-linear and your wealth gain from crafting would do the same. This is basic arithmetic. You learn these things before you get to high school.
EDIT: I just really want to see someone come up with something new. If there's something in the book that says I have to follow WBL and not WBL*2 for a party or 1/2*WBL in my games then maybe I'll start giving credit to the use that WBL is a rule to be followed.
Also removed the 'my' from the first quotation so it reads as I intended it.

Talonhawke |

Glad to see that instead of being productive your gonna use the guidline excuse again guess what guidlines in the rules DO HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED other wise Take 10 rules don't work since the restrictions are just guidelines. The rules for ad hoc experience are just guidelines so guess they can come out. All the rules for NPC's are just guidelines. Heck even making your own spells are just guidelines so players can just make spells that are way better than intended.
What do you think a guideline is man?? Here is a hint
World English Dictionary
guideline (ˈɡaɪdˌlaɪn)
— n
a principle put forward to set standards or determine a course of action
Pretty sure that means that you don't just ignore them.
Also you still havent refuted the fact that
The game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items.
Is this one of your guidelines to be ignored.
Specific does trump general. Except you don't have specific on your side since at no point does anything call out that it allows one player to amass more that roughly equal wealth to the others. You are infering a specific that is not written.
Also please do not insult my intelligence again or claim you didn't.
PS RAMVORD
EDIT: added a PS

Khrysaor |
It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp.
WBL does not apply the same balance to crafting as both examples are contradictory.
I'm not arguing that a guideline needs to be ignored. And I guess I must reiterate that for the nth time for this thread. But a rule is something that exists without variance. You break a rule you break the system. You break a guideline you do not break the system. If characters have double WBL the WBL is not broken as its still balanced to the party. It is just requiring modification to the CRs of combat. It is creating work for the GM but it is not breaking any systems. The guideline that everyone wants as an absolute is just a tool for GMs to gauge their party for CR.
I didn't insult your intelligence nor did I intend to. Assuming I did is a fallacy.
So I ask again. Counter the same argument with a core rule.

Talonhawke |

I ask you to do the same give me the rule that counters that the players have roughly equal amounts.
Telling me i should have learned something before highschool is insulting my intellengience.
And since as i stated making custom spells is a guidline process then making a cantrip that does 100d6 force damage with no save is clearly fine since it only breaks guidlines.
Also if rules exist without varience why do we even have specific trumps general. Because the rules have variance every time i use pounce i break a rule. Everytime I use Rhino's charge i break a rule. All of these have a reason they are allowed but you don't have one feat/skill/prestige class/ability/etc that gives you the power to simply have more and be better than everyone else.
So while i know that there is no rule that blatantly states a presupposed balance in black and white i also know there is nothing you can find on these forums or in any book to back up the stance of Crafting means i get more stuff.

Khrysaor |
I ask you to do the same give me the rule that counters that the players have roughly equal amounts.
Telling me i should have learned something before highschool is insulting my intellengience.
And since as i stated making custom spells is a guidline process then making a cantrip that does 100d6 force damage with no save is clearly fine since it only breaks guidlines.
Also if rules exist without varience why do we even have specific trumps general. Because the rules have variance every time i use pounce i break a rule. Everytime I use Rhino's charge i break a rule. All of these have a reason they are allowed but you don't have one feat/skill/prestige class/ability/etc that gives you the power to simply have more and be better than everyone else.
So while i know that there is no rule that blatantly states a presupposed balance in black and white i also know there is nothing you can find on these forums or in any book to back up the stance of Crafting means i get more stuff.
I never meant it to mean you didn't learn something before highschool or to insult you. It was showing that the math that's expected in the book is intended to be easy. Order of operations easy.
You're still avoiding the challenge I've presented you after doing you the courtesy of providing proof of how crafting exists outside of the WBL guideline. I don't see the same respect being given.
If you want rules to adhere to all players they need to be objective and apply regardless of character and setting. Laws, the rules of government and society, apply to everyone regardless of circumstance. You speed you get a ticket. Your kill someone you go to jail. It's the human variable that can alter this so the cop let's you off with a warning, or your lawyer gets you off but the result is still that you broke a rule. Just like in campaigns players can be benevolent and craft for everyone to reduce the impact of the wealth a crafter can gain. This still doesn't change the mechanics that exist to maintain the system.
Specific trumps general is a rule so that the devs can add more content to a game without having to rewrite every book they've done and make us all pay for them time and time again or keep looking for errata's.
And there is no rule that says that crafting does not get you more stuff. This is why this is a grey zone and there will be argument for years to come. From what other posters have said, this has been ongoing for the last decade at least. Maybe if the devs haven't wanted to change the mechanics for this long, they like them where they are and figure GM's can deal with this how they want. Either forced to stick to WBL, or have some percentage higher.
For people saying that something is the RAI is their own assumption. This is what I meant in the other statement where I wrongfully used the 'my' RAI. None of us know and as such it's open to interpretation. I'm willing to work with my players to find a balance so crafters don't feel they're getting cheated where the mechanics of in game crafting can net you more money than other players. If at some point the devs come in and say, we made a mistake and this is wrong. WBL is truth and you don't get money from crafting then that's that. Balance is balance. I only play devil's advocate because there's so many people that argue this is absolute and I try to show people there is other interpretations.
You're reasonable in your allowance of +/-10% as are most of the posters that have been in here but I don't like when people try telling others that it's up to the WBL when there's a crafting section that shows you can make money doing so. And there's trait's you can take to improve on this so there is definitely some forethought on the devs for how this is. If we all say it's up to WBL then everyone thinks it's up to WBL and that variance gets removed. GM's will look to the site and say 'Nope. The forums say WBL is the be all end all. That's final.' Sure they can still say that now, but just understand that that is your personal decision to do so and not how the rules show things can be done.
EDIT: don't mind the comment about avoiding the challenge as I read yours in points as I went. Wasn't intended for offence.
TL;DR
WBL matters for balance with CR purposes.
WBL can be exceeded by crafting.
GM's discretion maintains balance.
Crafters should see some minor monetary benefit at creation to fit crafting into WBL.
Or mechanics should be changed so crafting has no bearing on wealth.