Magus spell combat question.


Rules Questions


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I was thinking of a 1 level magus dip for my arcane duelist bard whipmaster.

Looking at spell combat, it says he can "cast any spell from the magus spell list" with it.
True Strike is on the magus list as well as bard.

Could I use my bard slots to spellcombat with true strike?


Cult of Vorg wrote:

I was thinking of a 1 level magus dip for my arcane duelist bard whipmaster.

Looking at spell combat, it says he can "cast any spell from the magus spell list" with it.
True Strike is on the magus list as well as bard.

Could I use my bard slots to spellcombat with true strike?

Not without Broad Study, I believe is how this works.

Liberty's Edge

Krispy is correct. You can only cast Magus spells (ie. spells from the magus list, with magus slots) with spell combat.


Yeah, you'll need another few levels to get the Broad Study Arcana. I don't really think it's worth a 6 level dip.

Liberty's Edge

You see, I interpreted it as exactly what it says: "magus spell list." As in, you could cast it from another class, but it still has to be a spell present on the magus spell list.

This doesn't mean that this would be balanced, but that's how the rule reads.

Note that Broad Study expands the spell *list*, not where it can be cast from. This means they go from only using it with spells that happen to be present on the magus list to spells that happen to be present on the magus list *or* on the ___ list. Never in the text of Spellstrike, Spell Combat or Broad Study does any of it say "must be cast using your magus spell slots" or anything of the like.

Also note that this wouldn't be the first time a class ability for casting applied to other casters. The sorcerer bloodline arcanas are examples of this.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

You see, I interpreted it as exactly what it says: "magus spell list." As in, you could cast it from another class, but it still has to be a spell present on the magus spell list.

This doesn't mean that this would be balanced, but that's how the rule reads.

Note that Broad Study expands the spell *list*, not where it can be cast from. This means they go from only using it with spells that happen to be present on the magus list to spells that happen to be present on the magus list *or* on the ___ list. Never in the text of Spellstrike, Spell Combat or Broad Study does any of it say "must be cast using your magus spell slots" or anything of the like.

Also note that this wouldn't be the first time a class ability for casting applied to other casters. The sorcerer bloodline arcanas are examples of this.

Oh, I think your reading is totally fine with how it reads for sure.

I'm just fairly certain that this particular case has been ruled (somewhere, I dont remember where exactly) that the stated case is specifically covered by Broad study, and is an exception to the general rule you're referring to, where general spellcasting abilities apply across class.

IE, in this case, "Magus Spell list" = "Magus Spells you have prepared as a Magus".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
StabbittyDoom wrote:

You see, I interpreted it as exactly what it says: "magus spell list." As in, you could cast it from another class, but it still has to be a spell present on the magus spell list.

This doesn't mean that this would be balanced, but that's how the rule reads.

No it's not how it reads. Without taking Broad Study which requires that you take six levels of magus, Only spells cast from the magus spell book and the magus spell slots work with spell combat


Seems that you can by RAW, however your bard spells still suffer arcane spell failure.

Since theres a magus arcana that lets you use spells from other classes with spell combat however i would say that RAI is that you cannot and i would go with that ruling where i gming.

Kind of depends on your dm but i think your RAW case has merit.

Liberty's Edge

I don't disagree that RAI may be that it's "only magus spell slots", but that's NOT what it says. It says "only spells on the magus spell list." If they intended it to be "only magus spell slots", they could've easily just said that instead. Or even in addition.

I don't see how you could get more clear. It says "on the magus spell list." Is it on the magus spell list? You're fine. In a core rulebook FAQ it was stated as follows:

Quote:
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

Since this "modified spellcasting" (by changing the action) and does not explicitly say "from that class". Instead it says "from that spell list", which is not the same as "from that class."

Again, I don't disagree that RAI may be that they intended "from magus spell slots only", but that's not what it says.

Broad Study still gives a huge benefit with this interpretation. For example, a Magus/Ranger could use it to cast Lead Blades as part of their full round and benefit from it immediately (rather than spending a separate turn to cast it). They could not do this without Broad Study as it's not on the Magus spell list.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

I don't disagree that RAI may be that it's "only magus spell slots", but that's NOT what it says. It says "only spells on the magus spell list." If they intended it to be "only magus spell slots", they could've easily just said that instead. Or even in addition.

I don't see how you could get more clear. It says "on the magus spell list." Is it on the magus spell list? You're fine. In a core rulebook FAQ it was stated as follows:

Quote:
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

Since this "modified spellcasting" (by changing the action) and does not explicitly say "from that class". Instead it says "from that spell list", which is not the same as "from that class."

Again, I don't disagree that RAI may be that they intended "from magus spell slots only", but that's not what it says.

Broad Study still gives a huge benefit with this interpretation. For example, a Magus/Ranger could use it to cast Lead Blades as part of their full round and benefit from it immediately (rather than spending a separate turn to cast it). They could not do this without Broad Study as it's not on the Magus spell list.

While I could swear I had seen official clarification on this, I can't find it. Play it as you like.


Thanks for all responses. I'll direct my DM to this thread for the reasonable and readable arguments for both interpretations if he's undecided when I bring it up tonight.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If just multi-classing was enough, the Broad Study Arcana would have no purpose. That's as clear as it gets.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
If just multi-classing was enough, the Broad Study Arcana would have no purpose. That's as clear as it gets.

As I showed earlier, that is not true. Broad Study lets you use the abilities with different spells, rather than with the same spells cast via a different class.

The difference being that a magus with broad study could mix in things like the cure __ wounds spells or lead blades, where a magus without it could not. This would be true whether or not you allow a magus to use spell slots from other classes (which, as currently worded, they can do without an arcana).

In fact, a Magus 6/Cleric 4/Mystic Theurge would be kind-of interesting. They either hit you with some touch spell (with attacks as a bonus), or heal themselves while attacking you. Toss in Divine Power and other martially-focused cleric spells to make up for BAB loss and you'd probably be pretty decent. Likely rather sub-optimal, but certainly interesting.

Also, I'd like to mention that if you *couldn't* use non-magus spell slots with the spell combat and spellstrike abilities, then broad study would actually be useless because you wouldn't be allowed to use those spell slots on those abilities (something broad study does NOT say it lets you do, because it's assumed you can already do that). The reasoning being that Broad Study uses the same wording as the abilities themselves: You can use them with abilities cast from ___ spell list. None of these things mention what class those slots are from.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
StabbittyDoom wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If just multi-classing was enough, the Broad Study Arcana would have no purpose. That's as clear as it gets.

As I showed earlier, that is not true. Broad Study lets you use the abilities with different spells, rather than with the same spells cast via a different class.

Spells cast from a different class list ARE different spells even if they are totally the same otherwise. If you are a wizard/magus, casting true strike IS not the same for each class even if they are learned from the same source.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If just multi-classing was enough, the Broad Study Arcana would have no purpose. That's as clear as it gets.

As I showed earlier, that is not true. Broad Study lets you use the abilities with different spells, rather than with the same spells cast via a different class.

Spells cast from a different class list ARE different spells even if they are totally the same otherwise. If you are a wizard/magus, casting true strike IS not the same for each class even if they are learned from the same source.

No, they're actually not. The "spell list" is a strictly defined term that says "this is a list of spells" and nothing more. Each class that casts can claim a spell list as a list of acceptable spells for that class. Just because it's harder for one class to cast it than another doesn't mean the spell is somehow fundamentally different. There's a reason why it doesn't say Cat's Grace (Ranger) under the requirements for crafting a dexterity belt, and why it doesn't say Rage (Bard) under the requirements for the Furious property. That reason is that it doesn't matter what list it's from, it's the same spell.

If they wanted the magus to be unable to use spellcombat with other spellcasting they needed only say "these spells must be cast as a magus" or something similar. They did not.

As I quoted earlier, the general rule is "if it's a class ability that applies to casting, it works for all casting not just the source class." This means that the class ability must explicitly state it does NOT work for other classes, or it by default does. The magus ability does not say that and instead refers to the spell list as a way of restricting what spells you can use with it, but this does not restrict how you can cast them.

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