False Life is a bad choice for most sorcerers (unless you're doing something thematic)
I go the opposite way on that one: the human favored class bonus for sorcerer is so good you'd have to be crazy to not pick it (from an optimization perspective, anyway), which means you're potentially a very low HP character, relatively -- even the party wizard's probably taking an extra HP every level. To slightly offset that and milk the sorcerer's versatility, you pick False Life and pretty much keep it up for life.
False is great, F the haters
Note that I said for "Most sorcerers."
False Life is a "I'm going to get stabbed and want to be prepared for it" spell. In that line it's like Combat Casting. If you're planning on using it regularly, you're going into places where it may not be...smart...for you to be as a squishy spellcaster.
It's LOVELY for Eldritch Knights built off of Sorcerers...and my Magic Missile Spamming sorcerer is more or less planning on taking it as his first spell that uses a second level slot for PFS, but he's built to be a surprisingly durable hit point sponge if he can help it.
For your typical "I'm going to be flying/levitating/shooting from altitude/while under Mirror Image" Sorcerer, it's kinda redundant.
I also have another category for "spells that are nifty, but..."
One of them is Unseen Servant. I've always been -tempted- to take this spell as a Sorcerer, but keep telling myself it'll never be used.
|
I like Sorcerer as the Arcane part of Eldritch Knight.
In that case, there are spells that are useful to take that are useless for a conventional sorcerer:
False Life is a bad choice for most sorcerers (unless you're doing something thematic), but it's awesome for an Eldritch Knight build.
True Strike doesn't require Still Spell. For a Still Spell focused Eldritch Knight, being able to use True Strike means your first level slots never really go to waste...
I've done one level dips into Sorcerer for my full BAB characters, getting True Strike, Feather Fall and the ability to use a wand of Shield and a wand of Expeditious Retreat.
It seems to me that sorcerer is a better 1 level dip than wizard for someone who wants to pick up specific 1st level spells, in which case, the rules of this thread don't apply. Really, this thread is about what to do if you're a primary sorcerer. If you're an archer taking a level dip in sorcerer just for gravity bow, then picking up utility spells like feather fall or expeditious retreat might be the best choices for your second known spell, whereas a primary sorcerer is going to have completely different needs.
|
Immediate action situation spells, like feather fall, are definitely much better for spontaneous casters than they are prepared casters. A prepared caster has to waste a slot (or two, or three...) on that spell, just in case that situation crops up. A spontaneous caster just has it as something they can whip out of the ol' toolbox whenever it's needed. Bards, of course, seem to get all the cool immediate actions spells these days...
As others have mentioned above, a Sorcerer should first take those few spells which the player sees as essential, and make sure that they'll at least have something useful to contribute in all encounters, but beyond that they get quite a few spells known they can use for more 'interesting' utility-type spells too. Of course, if you want to be a utility casting Sorcerer you're best going human for the favoured class bonus, but any Sorcerer can get a lot of milage out of the basic spells known for the class.
Wizards and Sorcerers look at stuff like utility spells in different ways, of course. A Wizard is designed to scribe any and all spells into his book, then churn out scrolls of those utility spells he thinks he may need one day, once in a blue moon. A Sorcerer wants to pick spells which have a generic type of utility (and buy scrolls of the ones he thinks he may need one day, once in a blue moon). Unseen servant is a great Sorcerer spell, for example, because it has pretty universally applicable utility, which doesn't fade as the character levels (even if it's just pouring potions down the throats of unconscious friends, triggering traps, or passing items around the group). Endure elements on the other hand has much less universal appeal - it's one of those spells required on the occassional adventure, but useless the rest of the time, so is much better as scroll or wand fodder.
IMHO, natch! :)
Take the elemental bloodline.
No, thank you. The elemental bloodline is terrible. The only reason people use it is to Crossblood Draconic and Wildblooded Elemental for blasting (and well, that's another issue).
The spell list is practically the most important aspect of your Bloodline decision--it's generally far more critical than the Arcana and special powers.
For my money, I think the Arcane bloodline has the best spell list, though it is admittedly boring. Only the Power Word spell is crappy. I think Fey is second best, mostly because of Entangle.
Well he wants to be blaster...Although I would advise against crossblooding if you actually plan to stick to sorc
My two cents: The question is a little ambiguous. Some spells are great to have available (e.g. feather fall, false life) but would be poor choices to have as one's first spell known of that level (e.g. if I had only one 2nd level spell known, I wouldn't pick false life).
I'd say that the worst sorcerer spells are those that are those that are only useful in very unusual situations, like Obscure Object or Phantom Trap. It's no harm for a wizard to have those spells in his spellbook, but they're just never going to be useful enough for a sorcerer to use a slot on (instead of buying a scroll in the unlikely event that he needs it).
When I rolled up sorc based EK I went abyssal for the str increases, and because I thought it was good flavor!
Hey, stop that! Why are you throwing stones at me?!
Ok! Ok! I will leave!
I don't think there are many terrible choices since you can trade out spells as you go. Personally I never take color spray or sleep because they make low level encounters boring.
I think that if you wanted to make a villain, you could do an AntiPaladin/Sorcerer EK
IF you do 9 levels of sorcerer, 2 levels of AntiPally, and the Rest EK, you have about 3/4 BAB still, Character level-3 for spellcasting, the str of the abyss bonus, and some summoning stuff.
Additionally, you get a bunch of gish spells (Bull Strength, Rage, Stoneskin) for free, and the standard anti pally lv2 stuff.
Just sayin
|
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*
First read the scroll, then step off the edge of the roof.
Even better, first copy the spell in your spellbook, then memorize it and then jump and cast.
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*First read the scroll, then step off the edge of the roof.
Even better, first copy the spell in your spellbook, then memorize it and then jump and cast.
Duration until landing or 1 round/level
|
|
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*First read the scroll, then step off the edge of the roof.
Even better, first copy the spell in your spellbook, then memorize it and then jump and cast.
Duration until landing or 1 round/level
And?
I think you can agree that being on the roof you aren't "landing" on any meaning of the word.Cast spell. It don't end as you aren't landing. First level it last 1 round, so just till before the start of your next round.
So unless the roof is higher than 60' you are ok.
Hmmm say I was 4th level. I cast Feather Fall, wait 3 rounds, then jump off a mile high cliff.
It still lasts till landing in this case right?
"or" is the shorter of the two durations.
|
|
My gnome flies his Floating Disk. -- Pantsloads of fun and avoid traps, difficult terrain, etc. ....Not so good if your a big person.
How do you manage that seeing how don't move unless it is following you?
It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round.
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*First read the scroll, then step off the edge of the roof.
Even better, first copy the spell in your spellbook, then memorize it and then jump and cast.
Duration until landing or 1 round/level
And?
I think you can agree that being on the roof you aren't "landing" on any meaning of the word.Cast spell. It don't end as you aren't landing. First level it last 1 round, so just till before the start of your next round.
So unless the roof is higher than 60' you are ok."or" is the shorter of the two durations.Hmmm say I was 4th level. I cast Feather Fall, wait 3 rounds, then jump off a mile high cliff.
It still lasts till landing in this case right?
Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects.
Standing on the ground is not "free falling."
My gnome flies his Floating Disk. -- Pantsloads of fun and avoid traps, difficult terrain, etc. ....Not so good if your a big person.
How do you manage that seeing how don't move unless it is following you?
It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round.
" If not otherwise directed, it maintains a constant interval of 5 feet between itself and you."
Tends to indicate that you can direct it's movement, but their is much debate on that. Frankly, I'd allow the riding simpley because 30' movement is a non issue. Do a search and you'll find threads upon threads debating that. Lets not bring it here. Thanks.
Free falling objects doesn't necessarily include creatures depending on how they placed their commas. Fun fact the spell wouldn't work if you were touched by a bird while falling and you would plummet to your death because of the definition of Free falling.Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects.
Standing on the ground is not "free falling."
Unless the bird is supporting your weight you're still free falling by any reasonable standard.
By your logic if dust or an arrow (say, fired by an enemy) strikes you you're not "free falling" and plummet to your death.
... Unless the bird is supporting your weight you're still free falling by any reasonable standard.
By your logic if dust or an arrow (say, fired by an enemy) strikes you you're not "free falling" and plummet to your death.
Actually everyone and everything is always in free fall. You may happen to be touching the earth, but the earth and you are still in free fall around the sun. Which is itself in free fall about the galaxy center. Which is itself...
Actually everyone and everything is always in free fall. You may happen to be touching the earth, but the earth and you are still in free fall around the sun. Which is itself in free fall about the galaxy center. Which is itself...... Unless the bird is supporting your weight you're still free falling by any reasonable standard.
By your logic if dust or an arrow (say, fired by an enemy) strikes you you're not "free falling" and plummet to your death.
any example taken to it's extreme becomes Ludicrous.
Yes technically speaking this is the truth which is in fact why I'd just shrug and let them cast feather fall then jump because it's a game why not?Free falling objects doesn't necessarily include creatures depending on how they placed their commas. Fun fact the spell wouldn't work if you were touched by a bird while falling and you would plummet to your death because of the definition of Free falling.Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects.
Standing on the ground is not "free falling."
Unless the bird is supporting your weight you're still free falling by any reasonable standard.
By your logic if dust or an arrow (say, fired by an enemy) strikes you you're not "free falling" and plummet to your death.
I'd let them prepare the scroll (held and easy to read) then jump and use it. However casting it, wandering around for a few minutes, then jumping is a bit much.
Why did this devolve into a bizarre discussion about Feather Fall? It's all the fault of a joke about Wizards with Feather Fall Scrolls that was actually pretty amusing until someone tried to be a smartass and "solve" the joke premise and led people to debate what "free falling" really means.
The moral is: Never make jokes
Why did this devolve into a bizarre discussion about Feather Fall? It's all the fault of a joke about Wizards with Feather Fall Scrolls that was actually pretty amusing until someone tried to be a smartass and "solve" the joke premise and led people to debate what "free falling" really means.
The moral is: Never make jokes
Sadly this seems to be the case.
...any example taken to it's extreme becomes Ludicrous.
That was kinda my point.
|
|
So in the spirit of getting back to the OP original discussion, Worst Spells for Sorcerors to take. Comprehend Languages. Sure it sounds useful, but 2nd level net you Tongues and this is also bypassable with ranks in Linguistics.(AKA extra Languages known). Share Language is another spell that kind of sputters out as only being occassionally useful. Not good sorceror choices. Tongues is solid,perhaps not a first choice spell, but easily 3rd or 4th, but it kind of depends on your campaign.
Jump. Do I need to say more. Yeah, I could kind of see it being useful to say a arcane trickster or a rogue/fighter type who took that 1 level in sorceror. I even think there is a cavalier archtype that could get a little use out of this, but for a plain jane sorceror this spell sucks. I'd only learn it as a wizard if you promised me I'd be able to make a fortune selling enchanted jumping caltrops. Its a sucky spell, especially when compared to it's 3.5 counterpart.
Spark. World's most useless cantrip. Oooooohhhh! Fire!. You could do the same thing essentially with prestigitation. It would've been nice if it was a 1d3 damage missle spell like acid splash or ray of ice, but it's not.
...any example taken to it's extreme becomes Ludicrous.That was kinda my point.
fair enough. You may have been joking, but i've seen people argue magic and physics using similar methods. Always makes me cringe. ;-)
|
|
Spark is insanely powerful for a cantrip... if you happen to also have the Gunsmithing Feat to churn out kegs of black powder on the cheap and an unseen servant to wander over towards the bad guys carrying them... ;)
But jump? Yeah - when expeditious retreat increases your jumping by +12 on the Acrobatics check for 1 minute per level as a mere side effect of increasing your speed, a spell to increase your jumping ability by +10 on the check for 1 minute per level comes across as a little on the sucky side. Of course jump can be cast on others (and made into potions) and gets better after CL 5 (around the time you're learning to fly anyway...), but probably not the number one choice for the discerning Sorcerer, no...
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
If you are first level and you take mage armor and feather fall... I guess you are using your bloodline powers a lot?
If you are 8th level and you have a fair number of spells then those are great choices.
What spells are good or not-so good depends on what level you are and what other spells you have. The big thing is make certain you have a fair number of options for combat at all times.
Not sure why folks are hating on summoning spells for sorcerers. Lots of great options and versatility there.
Mage's Lucubration
This is probably the best, and most obvious, answer.
So in the spirit of getting back to the OP original discussion, Worst Spells for Sorcerors to take. Comprehend Languages. Sure it sounds useful, but 2nd level net you Tongues and this is also bypassable with ranks in Linguistics.(AKA extra Languages known). Share Language is another spell that kind of sputters out as only being occassionally useful. Not good sorceror choices. Tongues is solid,perhaps not a first choice spell, but easily 3rd or 4th, but it kind of depends on your campaign.
I agree with you. One of the first items I picked up for my character when he had the funds was a Helm of Comprehend language and Read Magic. It was in the shape of a metal skullcap, just like Merlin's in Excalibur. We got a good laugh out of that.
Mage's Lucubration
i'm probably wrong about this, but i was under the impression that that spell was wizard only, and couldn't be taken by a sorcerer even if he wanted to.
other than that, it'll always depend on your build and vision of the character. i once had a theoretically blaster character, who ended up as the party's travel agent (mount/phantom steed for transportation, rope trick for accomedation). spells that i had thought useless for my build ended up getting far more use than the blaster spells that i had initially intended to use.
As time goes by, I start to wish that sorcerers received their own spell list; the class feels kinda sloppy to me, as though they thought of it at the last second.
What I'd like to see are more spells designed for multiple purposes; Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is a good example of this. It would be a huge undertaking, of course, but if sorcerers had their own unique list of spells that were modeled after the Freezing Sphere, you'd have a more unique class that also possessed abilities different from a wizard.
But don't let me derail my own thread. ;)
I will say that after thinking about, I can see Feather Fall being of enough use for a sorcerer to grab. It wouldn't be the first spell I picked, but it's worthy of consideration.
As time goes by, I start to wish that sorcerers received their own spell list; the class feels kinda sloppy to me, as though they thought of it at the last second.
WotC basically did think of them at the last minute. Sorcerers were an attempt to appease the huge portion of the fan base that hates preparing spells ahead of time.
They were obviously not thought out beyond, "Ooh, since they don't have to prepare spells, we probably should put them one level behind the preparation casters spell progression, just in case."
Paizo did think them out a lot more (providing Eschew Materials for free--I think that was a common house rule anyway--and adding Bloodlines, etc.), but I'm sure they didn't want to do something so extreme as to create a new spell list.
Also, creating a new spell list causes problems--what happens when a Sorcerer wants to do what the Wizard just did? What happens when the party arcanist is a Sorcerer and the group really needs a Wizard spell or vice versa? How about if they find a wand of a particular spell the GM knows the party will need?
Oh, and Freezing Sphere sucks for a sorcerer. Normally, it's an Intensified Fireball dealing cold damage that you can hold onto instead of casting right away. Just take Fireball and a couple metamagics. The freezing part of it does nothing 95% of the time, though admittedly, the rare times it is helpful, it is awesome.
I've always thought Sorcerers should get Heighten Spell for free as well.
Maybe even in place of eschew materials, but I lean to getting both.
Heighten Spell should be mandatory for sorcerers; with a limited spell list, the ability to keep some of those low level spells viable should not be underestimated.
I once played a cleric whose favorite tactic was to Heighten a Command spell; even at 12th level, getting the big bad to "approach," or "surrender" for a round was amazing. I'm sure there are some low level sorcerer spells that would prove just as useful. grease, for example.
+1 for Heighten Spell's usefulness. Esp when combined with the Fey bloodline or the Infernal Bloodline.
With 18 charisma at level 12, you can cast a Heightened Dominate person as a level 6 spell with a DC of 10+6+4+2 = 22
But we are talking about the worst spells, so never mind
+1 for Heighten Spell's usefulness. Esp when combined with the Fey bloodline or the Infernal Bloodline.
With 18 charisma at level 12, you can cast a Heightened Dominate person as a level 6 spell with a DC of 10+6+4+2 = 22
But we are talking about the worst spells, so never mind
Heh. My Infernal Sorceror is getting DC's of close to 22 at 6th level with Charm spells (Cha 20, Eagle's Splendor, Bloodline Arcana, and SF: Enchantment = DC 20 + SL). Once he gets to Dominate people, I think I'm gonna try to steal a country.
Heh. My Infernal Sorceror is getting DC's of close to 22 at 6th level with Charm spells (Cha 20, Eagle's Splendor, Bloodline Arcana, and SF: Enchantment = DC 20 + SL). Once he gets to Dominate people, I think I'm gonna try to steal a country.+1 for Heighten Spell's usefulness. Esp when combined with the Fey bloodline or the Infernal Bloodline.
With 18 charisma at level 12, you can cast a Heightened Dominate person as a level 6 spell with a DC of 10+6+4+2 = 22
But we are talking about the worst spells, so never mind
Similar DC's for my blaster sorcerers heightened, intensified burning hands. Sure, using a higher level slot for a low level spell doesn't sound awesome, but sometimes you can't fireball.
intensified burning hands deaing 10d4 as a lv2 spell is nothing to scoff at
although intensified shocking grasp is legit