Would it be possible to modify some Undeads to run on Positive Energy instead of Negative? would it changes a lot of things?
Wasn't the deathless creature type from 3.X's BoED good aligned positive energy undead?
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Wasn't the deathless creature type from 3.X's BoED good aligned positive energy undead?
More or less what I'm aiming for...
Good ghost Cleric?
And Apparantly James Jacobs doesn't like the idea.
Yeah, sounds like your looking for deathless. They shared most of the undead traits, but were good aligned. I think there was the Crypt Warden, for example, which was a positive energy skeleton, if I'm not mistaken. I was actually rather a fan of the deathless; I may have to convert them over to PF on one of my day's off this week.
Dotted for interest...
Yeah, sounds like your looking for deathless. They shared most of the undead traits, but were good aligned. I think there was the Crypt Warden, for example, which was a positive energy skeleton, if I'm not mistaken. I was actually rather a fan of the deathless; I may have to convert them over to PF on one of my day's off this week.
This, maybe some kind of positive template/subtype for undead if deathless is copyrighted or something.
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My suggestion*: just use a good undead.
*not a fan of the BoED style 'all negative energy is evil because its icky but something that works the exact same way but with positive energy must be good even though positive energy just like negative energy has no association with alignment'.
My suggestion*: just use a good undead.
*not a fan of the BoED style 'all negative energy is evil because its icky but something that works the exact same way but with positive energy must be good even though positive energy just like negative energy has no association with alignment'.
I agree with you, but currently, a good ghost Cleric wouldn't be able to channel Positive energy without blowing him/her/itself up.
I agree with you, but currently, a good ghost Cleric wouldn't be able to channel Positive energy without blowing him/her/itself up.
well, selective channel may be the go here.
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well, selective channel may be the go here.
I agree with you, but currently, a good ghost Cleric wouldn't be able to channel Positive energy without blowing him/her/itself up.
Unnecessary. A cleric may always choose whether or not to include themselves in the effect.
As to the original topic: I've always wondered what happened to positive energy undead... and why negative/positive were considered inherently evil/good.
I know of no content off-hand that supports the neutrality of those energy types or the idea that undead need not be inherently evil.
As to the original topic: I've always wondered what happened to positive energy undead... and why negative/positive were considered inherently evil/good.I know of no content off-hand that supports the neutrality of those energy types or the idea that undead need not be inherently evil.
The energy types and the planes that epitomize them are overtly non-aligned both in 3.x and Pathfinder in the 3.5 DMG, 3e MotP, Pathfinder TGT, etc.
Undead are a slightly different beast, and while PF continues with the 3.5 change of non-intelligent undead being evil as opposed to neutral, not all undead (just the vast majority) are evil, with ghosts being capable overtly of being any alignment. The energy that empowers them isn't evil, but PF explains things as being that its the interaction of that energy with mortal souls in the creation of undeath that is itself generally an evil act, for selfish reasons, and the way that most undead are created ultimately makes most of them evil. Exceptions exist, but they're just that: exceptions to the general rule.
well, selective channel may be the go here.
I agree with you, but currently, a good ghost Cleric wouldn't be able to channel Positive energy without blowing him/her/itself up.Unnecessary. A cleric may always choose whether or not to include themselves in the effect.
As to the original topic: I've always wondered what happened to positive energy undead... and why negative/positive were considered inherently evil/good.
I know of no content off-hand that supports the neutrality of those energy types or the idea that undead need not be inherently evil.
The only reason negative energy turns out being "evil" is because it is the minority, and it is very different. As well, in the presence of their opposites, these energies attempt to destroy one another. A mind can overrule these sorts of tendencies, but many/most undead are mindless.
As for so many intelligent undead being evil, well... perhaps it is a problem of selection bias. That is, most of those that would allow themselves to become undead (since undead are almost all formed from living) are evil, or so close that having a negative energy soul pushes them over the edge in a realm mostly populated by positive energy beings. That would explain why most of the "good" undead are intelligent, and are not undead by choice (usually ghosts).
And so the issue of positive energy undead is less about undead being "good" and more about the nature of such a thing. A non-mindless positive energy undead would not be different from a revived person, and so it wouldn't really be undead. A positive energy zombie would just be some mindless, undead-fighting corpse, and would be a pretty silly concept honestly. A positive energy ghost would probably have to be the ghost of a creature that was born undead, though I'm not sure if that can really happen, it might not even be workable in the concept of negative energy beings. Though I'm led to wonder how the hell Dhampirs work, I'm guessing that's all rule of cool or something.
Alternatively, everything is shullbit and you can just make up the rules as you go. How much sense makes is all in how you justify it. Balance wise, it's practically the same as a normal undead assuming the energy affinity is all you change.
Monte Cook's "Ptolus" campaign setting included the blessed children as the opposite of undead -- they were the spirit of children not yet born. If I recall correctly (my book is eight hours away at the moment), there were three of them ranging up to CR 8 or so.
In general, positive energy is the ignored stepchild of the DnD cosmology. Negative energy has undeads, positive energy has ravids and xag-ya. Add the soul protectors from Bastion of broken souls and a few other niche things, and that is it. Interestingly, van Richten's guide to the ancient dead held that mummies were actually positive energy creatures, and the aerenal elf ancestors and the crypt wardens take the same track later on. However, should not positive energy do something other than just make sort-of undeads? A template for Vivacious creature was in the 3.0 Manual of the planes, which is a better concept, but also difficult conceptually. Thinking about it, I guess Constructs would be the perfect positive energy creatures.
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Interestingly, van Richten's guide to the ancient dead held that mummies were actually positive energy creatures,
That was a holdover from 1st edition, which had mummies as imbued with positive energy, which explained how they could create living organisms (disease organisms, anyway) with their touch.
Back in the day, negative energy couldn't create life, only destroy it. Since 3.0 went with contagion as a necromancy / negative energy effect, while cure light wounds was a conjuration (healing) / positive energy effect, that sort of thing has been thrown away in favor of 'negative energy hates and destroys all life, except icky life that we don't like very much...'
As for the OP, there's always the deathless / ancestors / blessed children routes mentioned above. Or you could just use petitioners (which can be spirits of the dead bereft of bodies that *aren't* undead). Or you could just use generic outsiders, which have 'bodies made of spirit' sort of like a differently-worded manifested ghost anyway.
Technically every single living thing is a positive-energy empowered 'undead' anyway. They are perfectly opposed to undead anyway, and are infused with positive energy. Positive energy heals them. Negative energy harms them. if the positive energy is blasted out of them, they fall over dead and rot, making them no less 'animated by unnatural energies from another dimension' than undead.
It's no wonder that druids so often go utterly mad in the D&D fantasy paradigm, once they figure out that the 'natural world' and everything in it is an unnatural contagion fueled by extradimensional energy, infesting the mortal plane like a fungus, and that every creature with a soul or spirit is possessed by *yet another* unnatural extraplanar entity, that will either remain behind to become an undead blight on existence, or flutter off to become an otherworldly angel or demon, after it's brief time of eating and killing other living things to sustain it's own unnatural existence in the material plane comes to an end.
To me, the question is not what positive energy critters are like, because all living things certainly are. The question is, if you take inanimate things, either objects or dead bodies, and infuse them with positive energy, what do you get? I could go with resurrection in the case of dead bodies, but still, for objects, that would mean becoming animated objects, right? Making golems would be a more focused and permanent way to do this.
If you are going to follow the current route of negative energy kills life, and object imbued with it have unlife, then it makes sense why you don't see a lot of things as positively imbued. A positively imbued corpse is a resurrected corpse. It just takes more positive energy to reinvigorate a corpse than it does negative to give it unlife.
As to objects, following that logic, infusing an object with positive energy should create a new life. So I'd say that any self aware animate object is one that was imbued with positive energy. Basically, sentient objects end up being the result of positive energy imbued into an object. Nothing in the rules to support this, but it would at least have a nice symmetry.
I'd just go with something similar to the Deathless except not named that. Also, I am still confused by the fact that Mummies are evil. If they are supposed to be the guardians of tombs who curse those who defile graves, I'd say they're at least Lawful Neutral, but that's just me. And I never knew they were actually fueled by Positive Energy, though I was well-aware of the Aerenal Elves and their Undying Court.
Thanks all, I will try to come up with something later on.
How does "Restless" sound?
Thanks all, I will try to come up with something later on.
How does "Restless" sound?
Don't forget that the Forgotten Realms setting also had good aligned, 'psotive energy', Elven Liches called Baelnorn's that were ancient guardians of the elven race and repositories of wisdom.
Most elves were completely unaware of them, and the church of Kelemvore's stance was still to destroy them, as undeath (any form) was a perfesion of the natural order.
Personally I am not a big fan of the 'positive energy undead' concept in general. I am a firm beleiver that not everything has to have a mirror version in D&D/Pathfinder. Just because one element or aligment or enrgy has X does not mean all of them do. Additionally just because Positive and Negative energies exist in no way means they can produce similar effects. The world is not perfectly mathematically based.
That said, if you think it will enchance your campaign to have a unique no evil undead I would say go for it. Keep it tied to the negative materil plane, have it be intelligent and have it constantly fighting off it's darker urges to stay good.
In general, positive energy is the ignored stepchild of the DnD cosmology. Negative energy has undeads, positive energy has ravids and xag-ya.
Doesn't positive energy have life. Granted this may be overlooked as the default assumption, but that would make positive energy much more present and actually give negative energy the short end of the bat.
In general, positive energy is the ignored stepchild of the DnD cosmology. Negative energy has undeads, positive energy has ravids and xag-ya.Doesn't positive energy have life. Granted this may be overlooked as the default assumption, but that would make positive energy much more present and actually give negative energy the short end of the bat.
Negative Energy has most of the cool stuff?
I like The Enduring.
Just do the opposite of negative energy and you're golden.
Negative energy -> Inflict Wounds
Positive energy -> Cure wounds
Negative energy -> Inflict Negative Levels
Positive energy -> Restore Negative Levels
Negative energy -> Drain lifeforce (lower max HP)
Positive energy -> Boost lifeforce (raise max HP with temp HP)
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The Radiant. Also, too much of a good thing is bad. After a certain point, excess positive energy ought to cause burns or rapid aging, or overload the bodies of the regularly living in some way. Positive energy could also animate things that are not normally living; maybe an aura of Animate Object or something.
Don't forget that the Forgotten Realms setting also had good aligned, 'psotive energy', Elven Liches called Baelnorn's that were ancient guardians of the elven race and repositories of wisdom.
Baelnorn weren't 'positive energy undead' though, they were just a specifically elven variety of lich with some alternate powers, and powered by negative energy just like other liches. FR also had specifically non-evil liches known as arch-liches. I'm a fan of the concept.
Doesn't positive energy have life. Granted this may be overlooked as the default assumption, but that would make positive energy much more present and actually give negative energy the short end of the bat.
One of the reasons why the sceaduinar are so stupendously pissed at Positive Energy. :)
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Baelnorn weren't 'positive energy undead' though, they were just a specifically elven variety of lich with some alternate powers, and powered by negative energy just like other liches. FR also had specifically non-evil liches known as arch-liches. I'm a fan of the concept.
Don't forget that the Forgotten Realms setting also had good aligned, 'psotive energy', Elven Liches called Baelnorn's that were ancient guardians of the elven race and repositories of wisdom.
Todd beat me to it. The Arch-lichs and Baelnorn of FR are not positive energy based. They are rare and non-evil but they are negative energy. It should be noted elves always knew of Baelnorn, they simply "went of of style" as most elves think anyone willing to become one was not all there to start with.
So, I cannot exist?
I don't think there is a rule undead can't be good. They normally are not good however.
I don't think there is a rule undead can't be good. They normally are not good however.
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My problem is more "must absolutely run on Negative energy", unless the whole party is filled with undeads, this might make the character hard to heal.
Its undead so yeah it uses negative energy. This has nothing to do with it being good. A damphi(spelling?) or a living person in a group of undead have the same issue. If you want to be easy to heal, carry a wand of inflict, or play with a party with channel neg or ya know not be undead.
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As to the original topic: I've always wondered what happened to positive energy undead... and why negative/positive were considered inherently evil/good.I know of no content off-hand that supports the neutrality of those energy types or the idea that undead need not be inherently evil.
The energy types and the planes that epitomize them are overtly non-aligned both in 3.x and Pathfinder in the 3.5 DMG, 3e MotP, Pathfinder TGT, etc.
Undead are a slightly different beast, and while PF continues with the 3.5 change of non-intelligent undead being evil as opposed to neutral, not all undead (just the vast majority) are evil, with ghosts being capable overtly of being any alignment. The energy that empowers them isn't evil, but PF explains things as being that its the interaction of that energy with mortal souls in the creation of undeath that is itself generally an evil act, for selfish reasons, and the way that most undead are created ultimately makes most of them evil. Exceptions exist, but they're just that: exceptions to the general rule.
Also the spells creating Undead have the Evil descriptor (at least in PFRPG)
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Deathless are creatures who have died but have returned to a kind of spiritual life. They are similar in many ways to both living creatures and undead. However while undead represent a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, the deathless merely stave off the inevitability of death for a short time in order to accomplish a righteous purpose. While undead draw their power from the Negative Energy plane, the deathless are strongly tied to the Positive Energy plane, the birthplace of all souls. In fact, the deathless are little more than disincarnate souls, sometimes wrapped in material flesh, often incorporeal and hardly more substantial than a soul in its purest state.
FEATURES
-d8 Hit Dice
-Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (medium progression)
-Good Will saves.
-Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die.
TRAITS
-No Constitution score. Deathless use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
-Darkvision 60 feet.
-Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
-Immunity to death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
-Not subject to nonlethal damage or ability drain. Immune to damage to ts physical ability scores, as well as exhaustion and fatigue effects. Unlike undead, deathless are subject to energy drain. Like living creatures, deathless are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy.
-Immunity to any affect that requires a Fortitude save, except for energy drain attacks, effects that also work on objects, and harmless effects.
-Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
-Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true ressurection can affect the deathless if they are willing. These spels turn deathless creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming deathless.
-Like undead, deathless are affected by the Command Undead and Turn Undead feats.
-Deathless creatures gain the same benefits from conscecrate and hallow as undead do from desecrate and unhallow, and are hindered by desecrate and unhallow as undead are by consecrate and hallow. Hide from undead and undeath to death also work against deathless. Detect undead and deathwatch reveal deathless, and allow the caster to distinguish deathless creatures from undead. Evil caster can be stunned by the overwhelming auras of deathless creatures as good casters can be stunned by the overwhelming undead auras. Use the “undead” line in the detect evil spell description when deathless are in the area of a detect good spell. Deathless are healed by disrupt undead and damage by unholy water as undead are by holy water. Deathless are not affected by disrupting weapons. Spells that have greater than normal affects against undead creatures- including chill touch, magic stone, searing light, sunbeam, sunburst, and wall of fire- do not have these enhanced effects against deathless creatures. Deathless take only 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels from searing light. Spells such as command undead, create undead, create greater undead, and halt undead do not affect or create deathless creatures.
-Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entries.
-Proficient in whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Deathless not listed as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. If a deathless is proficient in armor of any type, it is proficient with shield (but not tower shields unless included in its entry).
-Deathless do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Also the spells creating Undead have the Evil descriptor (at least in PFRPG)
Well you are pulling negative energy and reanimating and desecrating a body. There isn't a whole lot of good about that.
Juju Oracle. That is all.
Still uses neg energy. We have already covered not all undead are evil...just almost all of them.
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Well you are pulling negative energy and reanimating and desecrating a body. There isn't a whole lot of good about that.Also the spells creating Undead have the Evil descriptor (at least in PFRPG)
That's extremely subjective. In a setting a few friends and I are working on there is one nation that raises their dead to act as laborers so as to allow the living to hold better lives. Once that undead creature can no longer be maintained (we presume they don't last forever when working, and guesstimate 10-40 years) their remains are buried as they would be in any other nation.
In that nation it is considered extremely disrespectful NOT to use the bodies in this way, as it prevents the person from giving that one last helping hand. It is also extremely disrespectful not to properly bury them after their usefulness as undead has waned. There are a lot more little details here, but you get the point.
Then again, the alignment system in D&D is supposed to be objective (despite the fact that this is not *really* possible without also being unfair), and that "objective" system is based on typical western morals. Because of that, we tweaked the alignment system in the setting to make it more flexible and allow more varied cultures without them being labeled "evil" for seemingly arbitrary reasons.
Besides, something should only be marked as inherently evil if it can only be used for evil. As shown above, animate dead can be used for good. So can poisons (namely knock-out poisons) and various other things. Unfortunately, in Golarion, those are labeled inherently evil because they're "icky" rather than being truly bad things.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Besides, something should only be marked as inherently evil if it can only be used for evil. As shown above, animate dead can be used for good. So can poisons (namely knock-out poisons) and various other things. Unfortunately, in Golarion, those are labeled inherently evil because they're "icky" rather than being truly bad things.
What about the spell blasphemy? One could argue that when applied carefully, and against the right targets, it's an excellent non-lethal take-down spell. Much more humane than, say, a fireball. Should it lose the evil tag, since it can be used for non-evil means?
BTW, I don't believe poison use is evil in Golarion. It used to be evil in 3.5, but as far as I know that was removed for Pathfinder. Paladins are still prevented from using poison, but I think that's more because they consider it dishonorable, rather than evil. Poisoners, spies, and alchemists all get poison use without having any alignment prohibitions.
In 2nd ed AD&D, mindless/non-intelligent undead were always neutral, and only intelligent undead were evil. The thought process there was that the mindless undead were little more than constructs that happened to be made out of bodies, differing from a flesh golem only in that they were powered by negative energy rather than an elemental spirit.
Positive energy mummies came from the idea that Life was based on the balance of positive energy and negative energy, so a mummy was more of a body turned into a construct with a little positive energy to provide for motion and prevent it from decaying like an empty corpse.
Prior to 3e, alignment only existed in the outer planes, and all the inner planes were entirely neutral.
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Well you are pulling negative energy and reanimating and desecrating a body. There isn't a whole lot of good about that.Also the spells creating Undead have the Evil descriptor (at least in PFRPG)
AFAIK, spells using negative energy are not Evil in and of themselves (Inflict Wounds does not have the Evil descriptor), nor are spells involved in reanimating/desecrating a body (for example when building a Bone or Flesh Golem).
It is the mix of both (using negative energy to reanimate a dead body) which is apparently always Evil.
Maybe because it is a profound desecration of the negative energy (rather than of the dead bodies involved) to use it to bring a semblance of life to dead things.