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First, obviously the nature of most faction missions is that you arent really supposed to let other people know you are doing them, or at least thats the vibe I've always gotten from them. They are secret missions from your leader to you, not to all those other people.
Normally Im fine with players helping each other on checks to succeed at their factions missions, but some of them I dont feel should be able to be helped on just from the nature of what you are asked to do.
Ones I can think of:
Knowledge: Local to recognize someone or something specific to your faction- I know Gather Info got rolled into this one, but as most of these kinds of checks seem to be in isolated areas where there is no crowd to ask questions of, unless another PC has some previous knowledge of the person/thing, they shouldnt be allowed to roll to help.
Stealth checks to do X without people seeing- this one I think is fairly obvious, but Im more inclined to let them get help with it as long as its not a member of a faction who specifically cant know about it.
Perception, in some cases- This would have, I think, the same kind of restrictions that Knowledge:Local would have. If the person who is helping doesnt have a crowd to gather info from, and has no past knowledge of it, then they shouldnt get to rol for it.
A more specific example, though I cant think of the scenario it was in or the faction it was for: Peception checks to notice boxes with big red X's on them. If the player didnt ask for help until near the end of that specific mission, then I wouldnt allow other players to go back and roll to know if they had seen any. Too little, too late.
Diplomacy/ Bluff/ Intimidate, in some cases- In cases where you are trying to establish people as a fence for your faction or set up people to be contacts for your faction or something of the like, I dont think you should be getting help from other people.
Are there any that you feel a player from another faction shouldnt be able to help with? Do you think the ones Ive listed are off-base and shouldnt be restricted?
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I think it depends on the nature of the faction mission. If you're trying to steal something, then you'd better have an excuse to give your group, if you want their help.
For instance, my team recently raided a museum, and one guy was asked to bring back a green dragon scale from a stuffed dragon display. He said he wanted it as a souvenir, and my barbarian liked the idea and took one for himself, too. Being chaotic neutral, my barbarian reveled in causing damage all over the museum, just for fun. :p Out of character, I assumed it was a faction mission, but it could easily be explained in character without drawing suspicion.
But in one mission where I had to steal a ledger book from an office we broke into, I made sure nobody saw me take it, to avoid unnecessary questions.
Another time, one of our team members decided to free every slave we met on a particular mission. I honestly thought she was just role playing her good alignment, and my barbarian helped her out. He didn't care one way or the other about the slaves, but he thought it was funny to cause some chaos for the slave owners who had annoyed him. I didn't find out until after it was over that freeing the slaves was her faction mission.
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My most recent faction mission was to clean a cave. I enlisted the help of the party.
That character's previous faction mission was to get someone alone, say a code phrase, and Sense Motive his reaction. I didn't get any help on that one.
It really depends on the mission.
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GodsDMit, i do think you bring up some excellent points about skills that people from other factions shouldn't help with.
However, the Pathfinder Game design lends itself to characters who are specialized in one area, rather then say James Bond, who is a character that can do everything well. So While Faction missions are written to add an interesting dynamic to a scenario, there isn't any way to know when running a pathfinder scenario, what the party composition of character classes will be.
Since the accumulation of prestige is directly tied to the availability of magic items, Players are often willing to have their characters help each other complete faction missions. its the "ill scratch your back if you scratch mine" principle.
I guess from my personal perspective....the Knowledge local skill should be tied to a place.
Often in a PFS scenario, a Knowledge local, skill is often used as a Knowledge "connection" skill.
For example if your character grew up a thief on the mean streets of Egoran, the capitol of Cheliax, he would have Knowledge local (Egoran) and know how the thieves guild and black market works there.
If this hypothetical thief travels to Absolom, He wouldn't know the "players" on the local scene.
While he would in my opinion be able to, fairly easily make contact with the local thieves guild, i don't see how he could know about their internal structure. This is where i think the Diplomacy (gather informaton) skill would come into play.
Well anyways I do think some skills should have a bit of a narrower application then they do in PFS.
Just my two cents
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Myles Crocker, that's actually one change I like in 4th edition D&D. They got rid of Knowledge (local) and replaced it with Streetwise, which is a charisma based skill that reflects how good you are at finding things out, rather than what you already know.
But I think we're going a little off topic now. The focus of this thread should be whether or not players should be helping each other on faction missions. And as I said, I think it depends on the mission, why you're doing it, and how you can sell it to your teammates.
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I had a newer player last night who didn't have the necessary skills to complete the mission "conventially", and chose to do a bit of B&E to get the necessary info. He wound up being arrested, convicted, and sent to prison. Moral: some players assume the faction mission is more important than *anything*- laws, alignment, anything. It's often better to suggest they ask their PC friends to help them, than to have to deal with out-of-the-box issues when they figure out odd ways to solve them.
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that's actually one change I like in 4th edition D&D. They got rid of Knowledge (local) and replaced it with Streetwise, which is a charisma based skill that reflects how good you are at finding things out, rather than what you already know.
We already have that. It's called Gather Information and is covered by the Diplomacy skill.
I think factions missions, like so many other things, have to be evaluated case-by-case. This is a role-playing game, after all, and players should be permitted the ability to role-play solutions to their challenges. Sometimes, that means gaining assistance from other faction members. I think it is really fun to get a competing faction member to unknowingly help them. Or refuse help from competing faction missions.
That said, I just wish it was played out more in character. Too often I see a player attempt a skill check, fail, and simply start seeking out aid based on character sheet mechanics. Asking other players what their skill modifier is and then calculating who has the best chance for success and who should aid the primary roller. That's just poor gamesmanship, IMO.
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I seem to recall in Season 0, the Chelaxians took great (sadistic) pleasure in tricking the Andorans into helping them do the faction missions. The 'ideal' was to get the Andoran to do your faction mission and not realize it was a Chelish mission.
I also don't see why you shouldn't help. Especially if your faction isn't directly opposed to the other (Chelish/Andoran, Grand Lodge/Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge/Black Lantern Corps... oh, sorry) there are two good reasons.
1) in character, if you know Bill's faction and Bill asks for help to nick a skull, you now have an idea of what Bill's faction wanted.
2) out of character, if you play with a stable group, there might be a time when Bill is better suited to do your mission. "Remember when I helped you with that skull?" and it puts the co-op in cooperative play.
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If I need help, I usually go with the excuse "The Society needs it done. What do you mean you didn't get the notes? I guess they trust Muammar Gaddafi (or whichever PC I'm playing that day) to get it this done. If don't get this done, I'm telling Ambrus!". I usually will help if the request is generic enough or sounds harmless to my character and faction.
There are some things I do not allow as a GM. The mission to buy slaves as Andoran and then free them in a public market and make a speech about it. I ruled the others may use aid another, but he must make the perform check himself (he was the only Andoran there).
If a PC fails a sleight or hand or stealth, I'll usually allow bluff if PCs or NPCs notice.
But yeah, in the end, it depends.
As for Knowledge (local), I interpret that as the character can gather information from stories, tales, overheard, and reading materials to know about the local area. Diplomacy would be to specifically look for a specific piece of info that character doesn't happen to know.
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I also don't see why you shouldn't help. Especially if your faction isn't directly opposed to the other (Chelish/Andoran, Grand Lodge/Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge/Black Lantern Corps... oh, sorry) there are two good reasons.
Aren't all the factions directly opposed to each other? There's only one Absalom.
-Matt
A few of my characters don't care about the faction war and my main thinks it's a joke. He openly uses sarcasm to invite people to ask him for help in their missions (he has many high-bonus skills that many may not). "Gee, this looks important. I wonder if ANYONE KNOWS A GROUP that would be interested in it. I think I'll check out that door before looting this."
Even missions that say to keep it a secret, I see a character telling my characters as not breaking the rules since I'm not going to tell anyone.
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A few of my characters don't care about the faction war and my main thinks it's a joke. He openly uses sarcasm to invite people to ask him for help in their missions (he has many high-bonus skills that many may not). "Gee, this looks important. I wonder if ANYONE KNOWS A GROUP that would be interested in it. I think I'll check out that door before looting this."
Even missions that say to keep it a secret, I see a character telling my characters as not breaking the rules since I'm not going to tell anyone.
Nickademus's statements here really indicate a sad state of affairs for this aspect of the campaign. But then again, you could say the same thing since day one. Maybe Mr. Brock as a plan to enforce faction mission non-cooperation on his list of campaign fixes.
Point being, GodsDMit... secrecy? What's that?
-Matt
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Nickademus's statements here really indicate a sad state of affairs for this aspect of the campaign. But then again, you could say the same thing since day one. Maybe Mr. Brock as a plan to enforce faction mission non-cooperation on his list of campaign fixes.
-Matt
I've got some ideas. It is going to take a bit to fix the problem, but you should start seeing some things around Paizo Con.
Nickademus's statements here really indicate a sad state of affairs for this aspect of the campaign.
Now don't my statement out of context. I said some of my characters think it's a joke, not all of them. This is mostly due to alignment (CN) and personality. I have other characters that are very serious about their faction mission.
In no way was my statements directed at the faction missions as a whole. I'm honestly not in a position to judge them nor was I around at the beginning to see how people treated them.
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I also don't see why you shouldn't help. Especially if your faction isn't directly opposed to the other (Chelish/Andoran, Grand Lodge/Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge/Black Lantern Corps... oh, sorry) there are two good reasons.Aren't all the factions directly opposed to each other? There's only one Absalom.
-Matt
Some are less directly opposed to others ;-)
Seriously, if my Shadow Lodge character can help a Chelaxian because he knows Andoran got their job done, or to tweak the nose of the Silver Crusade, he's going to.
Likewise, My Taldor character (yet to be played) doesn't look like your normal Taldan, and might be convinced to 'help' the Taldan mission because she looks like she belongs in another faction.
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Some are less directly opposed to others ;-)
Yeah, I can't imagine my cleric of Sarenrae in the Silver Crusade is going to have issues with helping out on Andoran faction missions. Or vice versa on my Neutral Good bard in the Andoran faction.
That bard was born a Chelish slave, however, so he will actively work to get in the way of Cheliax missions every time, despite being an ethnically Chelish human. That's why he's in the Andoran faction - the only thing he hates more than the nation of Cheliax is the institution of slavery.
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The characters in the games I run and play have played quite a few scenarios with each other and can be assumed to know each other fairly well by now. I see nothing wrong in them reasoning (in-character as well as out-of-character) that if they help each other out with their faction missions, that's a favor that'll be repaid.
Also, I think it's a perfectly valid roleplaying decision to have a character that isn't as devoted to their faction as that faction might wish - and thus will help others carry out faction missions that might be somewhat against their own faction's interests. Unfortunately, currently there are no consequences for this kind of behavior - that might be something worth looking into.
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I generally don't see a problem with players helping with faction missions, I've seen cases where there are a couple that just do everything they come across or loot or whatever. In one case where a non-faction member looted a faction mission, the faction pc simply asked if he could see it and then just never happened to give it back
I agree that it should be considered more on a case by case basis. If the mission specifically says "don't let anyone see you" or "don't get caught" then I interpret that to mean that this is a solo (or in group with other faction members) mission and don't allow others to help, but that is the only real exception that I make.
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I agree that it should be considered more on a case by case basis. If the mission specifically says "don't let anyone see you" or "don't get caught" then I interpret that to mean that this is a solo (or in group with other faction members) mission and don't allow others to help, but that is the only real exception that I make.
Though there is one problem with that, many times in the Mission note it does not say the mission needs to be secret. I don't enforce that unless the Mission note says it.
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I agree that it should be considered more on a case by case basis. If the mission specifically says "don't let anyone see you" or "don't get caught" then I interpret that to mean that this is a solo (or in group with other faction members) mission and don't allow others to help, but that is the only real exception that I make.Though there is one problem with that, many times in the Mission note it does not say the mission needs to be secret. I don't enforce that unless the Mission note says it.
Kind of what I said I thought.....
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I guess from my personal perspective....the Knowledge local skill should be tied to a place.
Often in a PFS scenario, a Knowledge local, skill is often used as a Knowledge "connection" skill.For example if your character grew up a thief on the mean streets of Egoran, the capitol of Cheliax, he would have Knowledge local (Egoran) and know how the thieves guild and black market works there.
If this hypothetical thief travels to Absolom, He wouldn't know the "players" on the local scene.
While he would in my opinion be able to, fairly easily make contact with the local thieves guild, i don't see how he could know about their internal structure. This is where i think the Diplomacy (gather informaton) skill would come into play.
Well anyways I do think some skills should have a bit of a narrower application then they do in PFS.
Just my two cents
Actually, I would disagree with your reasoning. There would be many reasons why different Thieve's Guilds, as one example, would work with other areas' Thieve's Guilds. Just as an example, how about fencing hot goods? Just because that item picked up in Kaer Maga was sold to a fence there, doesn't mean that fence didn't sell it on to a fence in Absolom, where the item would look more like a pawned item instead of a stolen item.
Also, reciprosity, where you pull in muscle from out of town to back up a play, either for deniability or because local muscle might not be as likely to want to put their muscle on some local benefactor.
Consider invading armies, where, after the invasion, you use troops from City X to garrison City Y, so that they are not going to have to deal with "I know these people." syndrome.
Lots of reason for knowledge (local) to cover more than just your home base.
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To be more clear... The mission statement in the scenario for the GM states that the mission needs to be done in secret, but the mission letter to the player does not even hint at that.
That is what I mean by not enforcing that.
When I run into that, I err on the side of what the player is reading as that is what they are acting on. If they don't know that they should be doing something in secret I don't feel that I can hold them to that.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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We play mostly home pfs games, so we don't have much of a problem helping out if asked. Last game we played, there were three in one faction, and I was by myself. I made my checks easily, while the other three couldn't roll well to save their lives. Since they weren't very subtle about what they were looking for (a shop or something) I tried, and I was like, "What's the name of the shop you're looking for? Huh. You mean that shop that you're standing right in front of?" :D Then later with their other mission none of the three had the knowledge skill needed. "Oh yeah, the plant looks like this one right here. Is that what you wanted, if you'd have told me you were interested I'd have pointed it out sooner..." Since I helped in theirs, I felt happy to request their aid in mine, though it turned out they would have had to have worked NOT to aid me... :)
I had something come up in a session that I GMed recently where I had someone in a faction that could not finish their mission on their own because of their build, and there was no one else in that person's faction at the table.
Now, at this point, there was two things that I could do. I could either tell the player tough luck and have them go away with only one PP for finishing the scenario, or I could ask another player that I knew could help them succeed to help them out. Personally, I don't like my players not getting 2 PP for a scenario because they don't have a required skill. So, knowing that this mission wasn't one that needed to be in secret, I asked the one person at the table if they would mind helping the other player with their faction mission.
The player I had asked had no problem doing this, as this player knew that in sessions that the two of us had played in, I was more than willing to help out other players, again in that I scratch your back, you scratch my back sort of fashion.
That bard was born a Chelish slave, however, so he will actively work to get in the way of Cheliax missions every time, despite being an ethnically Chelish human. That's why he's in the Andoran faction - the only thing he hates more than the nation of Cheliax is the institution of slavery.
Just be careful with how far you take this, because directly interfering in another player's faction mission is considered PvP and not allowed by the rules.
I've got some ideas. It is going to take a bit to fix the problem, but you should start seeing some things around Paizo Con.
I'm not holding out much hope that it'll be my preferred solution: get rid of the "secret war" faction stuff altogether.
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Just be careful with how far you take this, because directly interfering in another player's faction mission is considered PvP and not allowed by the rules.
That bard was born a Chelish slave, however, so he will actively work to get in the way of Cheliax missions every time, despite being an ethnically Chelish human. That's why he's in the Andoran faction - the only thing he hates more than the nation of Cheliax is the institution of slavery.
Well, I didn't really mean it like that, though I worded it poorly, so I can see why you thought I did.
I'm assuming that most of the time, my bard won't know that someone's on a secret mission for Cheliax, unless he applies his bardic training in Knowledge (Metagame). If he finds out, he won't help them, but he still has to work with these people on the main mission, so he probably won't get in their way, either.
He's a big believer in free will and self determination, which is why he works for the Andoran faction and worships Cayden Cailean (among other deities). So he'll usually stay out of other people's way, even if he finds someone's faction mission distasteful, which the Cheliax missions often would be, from his perspective, even if they weren't for Cheliax.
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I'm sorry, but perhaps I'm a bit more harsh than most. If a character fails to earn both Fame points, too bad. Try again next time. In the vast majority of the cases, the missions are not difficult to complete, even for someone without max ranks or a class with a lot of skill points. As long as the GM gives you the ability to "think outside the box" and you provide a good, thoughtful solution, you'll be fine.
Based on self-reported averages (~1.8/scenario), the community is far ahead of the intended target of 1.5/scenario anyway.
What I object to is the clinical, mechanical approach that most players have to the missions. They calculate their chance of success, adding in every potential bonus/penalty, no matter how minor, and then farm the rest of the PC's for aid or for someone else to complete the mission on their behalf. Sometimes even calculating how needed the mission is for them to reach the next spending break.
What happened to just role-playing?
I take my missions to heart and try to complete them, but at the same time, I embrace the thematics that my faction wants me to accomplish these things to get a political edge vs. the other factions. Since everyone is expected to EXPLORE, COOPERATE, REPORT, is is a good bet that repeatedly using rival factions to complete your tasks could be a bad sign depending on the faction. Although, some factions might be happy if you exploit another faction's membership to reach your own goals. It all depends on the situation, but I just do not like the "feel" the factions have engendered. It's all getting lost in the race for better loot.
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You, harsh Bob? Really? ;-)
Seriously, I do believe that the faction missions are not meant to be 'won' all the time. There are going to be some ethical concerns for some members vs their faction. That's not a bad thing.*
I also don't see 'tricking' the other characters into helping you complete your mission.
I'll use a hypothetical Rey as a discussion. Let's say Rey's job is to get a feather from a stuffed gryphon, so the Shadow Lodge is able to use it to scry on the decembervate. We'll put the gryphon up there where he'd have to climb. Conversation goes like this.
Rey: I wish I could get a feather from that.
Andoran PC: Why?
Rey: I know an alchemical formula for a potion of fly, but it requires griffin feathers. Could you clamber up there and get one for me?
Andoran PC: What? Sure! (makes the climb and acrobatics checks, returns with a feather.) Just remember me when you brew that potion.
Rey: You bet!
Now Andoran PC's player knows Rey can't craft anything in PFS, and suspects it's a faction mission. But Rey's given a reason for it In Character. (And his player makes a note to buy a potion of fly) Later Rey might get asked to put up the coded Andoran underground signs. As long as that player asks him In Character "Hey, I've these Rave posters to put up, want to help?" Rey's not going to object. Again, I might figure it's a faction mission, but I'm not going to say anything.
At the same time, if the Andoran's mission is to put some Taldor noble insignia into a crime scene, he's not going to get my magus Talyn's help, because Talyn's still a Taldoran, even if his faction isn't.
*
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I've found it much more common in games that players look to others for help with their faction mission, always asking it as a personal favor for the character and not mentioning it is their faction mission (even though the players all know what it likely is).
In my games, I think that the biggest reason is that the players are all friends and feel bad if their friends fail. Maybe it is also because the players are friends, but the characters themselves seem to care a lot for the rest of their party even when they are from different factions and are more supportive of their party members than their own faction.
I'm not sure it is a problem really because it really is less fun at tables when the party just cares less for each other. I would be fine if faction missions would be solved by that character, but as long as they don't require the character to do it themselves, characters will ask for help and other characters will be happy to give it.
What happened to just role-playing?It got kicked in the balls when my Grand Lodge PCs, loyal to the Decemvirate above all else, got asked by the Sapphire Sage to steal giant wooden tobacco pipes and clear the cobwebs out of old caves.
I agree. Having to do missions for someone who is not my faction leader makes the whole system a moot point for me. :\
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What happened to just role-playing?
My Taldan character has a full page background that tells of how he was approached by the Taldor faction and sent to infiltrate the Pathfinder Society. He has more personal reasons for going along (he was a servant to a noble family and realizes how messed up Taldor is and so is courtly looking for a safe haven his noble can flee to. I created this character back in Season 1 or Season 0. Back then we didn't have a use for Prestige Awards except treasure gain. Once the Pathfinder Society Field Guide came out the first thing I did was purchase a remote island. My personal mission is close to succeeded.
From day 1 he has had a long tirade he'll go into about how bad Taldor is and how his noble cast him aside despite generations of loyal service. I've got most tables convinced I'm of the Osirion faction (I'm an expert on Ancient Osirion and even had the feat Osirionologist back when it still existed). I go out of my way to collect the Osirion McGuffin if there isn't an Osirion on the table and I've got a long list of them that I'm always looking to sell to the right buyer.
Others think I'm Andoran. Of course I'm Taldor which I quietly inform the GM of. I've managed to infiltrate the Andoran faction though. One character completely failed to beat my bluff rolls and so he constantly informs me of the Andoran mission and shows me the note. I discretely make a note of it and then help him succeed in it, as most of the time it's rather benign. I also believe that the intelligence I'm gaining on the Andoran faction is quite helpful, which I always pass on to my faction leader of course.
So there is someone completing two faction missions for other people (only when an Osirion isn't at the table as I want them to get their PA. And only when an Andoran IS at the table because I couldn't give a damn otherwise) for roleplaying reasons that have evolved due to events at the table.
What happened to just role-playing?
Most players, at least those that I have come across, don't really care for it, whether it's the time that it takes to do it, they don't have the imagination for it, or they just want to hit things.
Sad to say, because I'm about to create a character that is purely roleplay.
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I agree. Having to do missions for someone who is not my faction leader makes the whole system a moot point for me. :\What happened to just role-playing?It got kicked in the balls when my Grand Lodge PCs, loyal to the Decemvirate above all else, got asked by the Sapphire Sage to steal giant wooden tobacco pipes and clear the cobwebs out of old caves.
So far I've 'reskinned' missions in my head.
Silent Tide:
Hydra's fang:
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Here's one instant idea. I'm sure there's a ton, and a ton more after that with more interesting story hooks.
You're not stealing it, you're stealing it BACK. Some minion of Torch's stole it from some Decemvirate member pre-reconciliation, and used it to scry on a smuggler's ship known to be used by the Lodge (why else did whats-his-nuts choose the Throaty Mermaid, if not from the suggestion from the Lodge?)
And another
While in character it's a Lodge mission, but the player at the table shouldn't forget it was written as an Osirion faction mission. Pre season 3 missions are just sometimes going to be wonky, so you know that going in. You can't evaluate an Osirion mission for it's appropriateness for Grand Lodge, it literally wasn't written that way and what's more you know it.
You can focus on how inappropriate it is, or could instead embrace the RAW Osirion-ness of it. Maybe the Grand Lodge needs to help out the Osirion Faction this month in order to keep the shadow war balance of power in check.
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So how do you "reskin" the need to ** spoiler omitted ** as being a Grand Lodge faction mission?
;-)
Else waht deusvult said.
I totally agree that the faction missions can have their intentions modified to justify having to do the mission. I dislike that this effort isn't taken on the part of the GMs I've seen and heard of. Only once have a heard on these forums of a GM retyping the faction missions (not changing the actual mission or any game mechanics) in the voice of the new faction's figurehead.
With the current work load, I wouldn't expect M&M to spend time making five new sets of faction missions for all the old scenarios. Still, even changing the picture for the Sapphire Sage to Ambrus would bridge a lot of the gap in the role-play of adapting the older scenarios.
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Only once have a heard on these forums of a GM retyping the faction missions (not changing the actual mission or any game mechanics) in the voice of the new faction's figurehead.!
This never even occurred to me! Thanks for the idea!
It occurred to me, but as a new GM, I don't think I'd do a very good job of it. I'll wait until after I've played/GMed a few scenarios that have the new factions in them, to get used to the writing styles associated with those new factions, and then maybe try it.