Been looking at ways to get the most damage out of a dagger in particular a force dagger from the Magus Spellblade archtype.
basically your creating a force dagger in the offhand at the cost of a spell or if you take the pool sourced athame your arcane pool.
The second option is interesting because there is no level limit on how many point you can draw from the arcana pool and with the extra pool feat +2 points you can increase your pool without increasing your Magus level.
In Thoery a Magus with 16INT at level 3 (minimum for the pool source arcana) would have an arcane pool of 1+3 = 4 points and could create a +4 force dagger at level 3.
If you spent a further 3 feats of extra pool you would end up with 10 pool points and be able to make a +5 force dagger twice per day.
So assuming you did so what would then be the best way to maximize your damage with the force athame perhaps using another class (or even Magus) to focus on maxing out the daggers potential damage.
Note that you can two-weapon fight with the athame but you could just as easily wield as a single weapon also. 1d4 base dmg is not great but force damage is not subject to DR, SR and almost no creatures have force damage resistance or immunity
(one such idea I'm tinkering with is a master Chymist since brutal damage can be applied to the dagger, not to mention the slew of attribute buffs)
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I am not familiar with the archetype... and am on my smart phone but depending on the descriptor of the force dagger would it qualify for this feat...?
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
I am not familiar with the archetype... and am on my smart phone but depending on the descriptor of the force dagger would it qualify for this feat...?
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Umm probably not, the force dagger function as an acutal dagger and would work with any feats a normal dagger would like weapon focus dagger.
the difference is any damage this dagger deals is force damage.
However it is a Spell Like ability but my gut says it wouldn't work RAW.
here's the excerpt
Force Athame (Sp)
At 2nd level, a spellblade magus can sacrifice a prepared magus spell of 1st level or higher as a swift action to create a dagger of force in his off hand. The athame lasts for 1 minute or until dismissed, has an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the level of the spell sacrificed (maximum +5), and is considered a weapon the spellblade is holding for purposes of his arcane pool feature (using the pool to add abilities to a held weapon applies to the magus’s physical weapon and to the athame for no additional cost). The athame acts as a dagger, but the hand holding it is still considered free for the purpose of casting spells and delivering touch attacks. The magus can use the athame as if he were fighting with two weapons, or can use that hand to cast spells as part of the spell combat class ability (but not both in the same round). Attacks with the athame are force attacks and deal force damage.
This ability replaces the spellstrike class feature.
Fighter seems like a good choice because it would allow spending all your general feats on extra arcane pool to boost up your pool points well above 10, maybe even warrent taking some extra arcana for some other things that use pool points.
then spend all the bonus fighter feats on combat feats to get your damage potential up, not sure about the two weapon archtype though ...
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The Knife Master Rogue archetype (Ultimate Combat page 72) is probably worth a look - d8 Sneak Attack die type with daggers of all sorts.
The basic idea of the Force Athame is to allow a Magus to use two-weapon fighting without having to spam weapon cord weirdness. The Spellblade archetype loses Spellstrike, so really has to make the most out of the Force Athame to justify the trade. The Spellblade can alternate between TWF and Spell Combat without dropping or sheathing a weapon, thanks to the Force Athame, and arcane pool points spent on weapon enhancements count for both their regular in-hand weapon and the Force Athame too... so two-weapon fighting is the name of the game.
With a bit of planning, I'd imagine a Spellblade / Knife Master could deliver some pretty devestating blitz attacks. You'd probably want at least 5 Magus levels, just so that you can add weapon properties onto your daggers, as well as just flat bonuses, but beyond that Rogue levels (to build up the Sneak Attack dice) would be preferable. Technically you'd be dropping 2 dice worth of Sneak Attack (over 20 levels) in exchange for 2 dice worth of weapon property 'effects', but the ability to cast a couple of levels of Magus spells wouldn't hurt such a character. You'd drop a point of BAB, overall, too - so it's a balancing act, really.
You could look at the Arcane Trickster Prestige Class as well, although classes with the whole '+1 level of existing spellcaster' bit are horribly suboptimal when building on less than full-caster classes for their spellcasting mojo... Still Rogue 3 / Magus 4 would qualify you if that's a path you're interested in.
The Knife Master Rogue archetype (Ultimate Combat page 72) is probably worth a look - d8 Sneak Attack die type with daggers of all sorts.
The basic idea of the Force Athame is to allow a Magus to use two-weapon fighting without having to spam weapon cord weirdness. The Spellblade archetype loses Spellstrike, so really has to make the most out of the Force Athame to justify the trade. The Spellblade can alternate between TWF and Spell Combat without dropping or sheathing a weapon, thanks to the Force Athame, and arcane pool points spent on weapon enhancements count for both their regular in-hand weapon and the Force Athame too... so two-weapon fighting is the name of the game.
With a bit of planning, I'd imagine a Spellblade / Knife Master could deliver some pretty devestating blitz attacks. You'd probably want at least 5 Magus levels, just so that you can add weapon properties onto your daggers, as well as just flat bonuses, but beyond that Rogue levels (to build up the Sneak Attack dice) would be preferable. Technically you'd be dropping 2 dice worth of Sneak Attack (over 20 levels) in exchange for 2 dice worth of weapon property 'effects', but the ability to cast a couple of levels of Magus spells wouldn't hurt such a character. You'd drop a point of BAB, overall, too - so it's a balancing act, really.
You could look at the Arcane Trickster Prestige Class as well, although classes with the whole '+1 level of existing spellcaster' bit are horribly suboptimal when building on less than full-caster classes for their spellcasting mojo... Still Rogue 3 / Magus 4 would qualify you if that's a path you're interested in.
mmm my only concern multiclassing a 3/4 with 3/4 is effectively being a Two weapon fighter with sub par attack bonus and potentially suffering from the 3.5e Monk condition known as flurry of misses, hence the looking at full BAB classes.
Also as far as Magus goes the Kensai archtype seems like it might be useful since your going to need the high dex for TWF chain and wearing medium/heavy armor is out getting INT to AC would be nice
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Yeah - my main concern with a Spellblade / Knife Master would be the niggling doubt that he'd be doing so much better as just a Knife Master...
Kensai seems a good choice - TWF with a katana and a Force Athame could do some damage.
Definitely look at the Accurate Strike Arcana (Ultimate Combat page 54) which allows you to make your attacks for a round as touch attacks - since a Spellblade is all about TWF, and TWF is all about getting in more attacks, this Arcana will benefit you more than most (even the much maligned Greater Two-Weapon Fighting third attack at -10 has a decent chance to hit with this baby!). The various 'X' Blade Arcana are also worth a look, as a Spellblade gets to double dip their arcane pool investment when it comes to powering weapons at no extra cost, so these also are benefiting you more than a vanilla Magus.
If you're going a full-on Dexterity-based build, then consider a duel-dagger wielder and the Piranha Strike Feat from the Sargava book (page 24), on top of Weapon Finesse. Obviously this isn't such an attractive option if you're going Kensai, as the Prefect Strike class feature benefits most from having a large base damage dice size. The Quick Draw Feat, and various throwing weapon based Feats may also be worth a look, to add some ranged offense as well.
Yeah - my main concern with a Spellblade / Knife Master would be the niggling doubt that he'd be doing so much better as just a Knife Master...
Kensai seems a good choice - TWF with a katana and a Force Athame could do some damage.
Definitely look at the Accurate Strike Arcana (Ultimate Combat page 54) which allows you to make your attacks for a round as touch attacks - since a Spellblade is all about TWF, and TWF is all about getting in more attacks, this Arcana will benefit you more than most (even the much maligned Greater Two-Weapon Fighting third attack at -10 has a decent chance to hit with this baby!). The various 'X' Blade Arcana are also worth a look, as a Spellblade gets to double dip their arcane pool investment when it comes to powering weapons at no extra cost, so these also are benefiting you more than a vanilla Magus.
If you're going a full-on Dexterity-based build, then consider a duel-dagger wielder and the Piranha Strike Feat from the Sargava book (page 24), on top of Weapon Finesse. Obviously this isn't such an attractive option if you're going Kensai, as the Prefect Strike class feature benefits most from having a large base damage dice size. The Quick Draw Feat, and various throwing weapon based Feats may also be worth a look, to add some ranged offense as well.
The tricky part is working out how many feats I can burn on extra arcane pool without crippling the character as a whole. Since the pool will be the only way to generate a +5 athame when its going to be needed at higher levels ...
although being a force damage weapon having it +5 to overcome DR isn't such a big deal and with arcane strike one could conceivably go crazy with TWF power attack and still hit, still going to need a bigger pool to support either direction.unless of course I just bite the bullet and go full Magus ... mmm I still think a Ranger or Fighter blend could work for getting a big chunk of damage as both offer the TWF route through class abilites to free up general feats for pool points
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Unless you find you really need the extra Feats, I'd imagine that full Magus is the way to go - you need to keep adding Magus levels to up the Arcane Pool weapon boosting bonuses, and it's the double-dipping those bonuses which is the real strength of the Spellblade in the first place.
The Pool-Sourced Athame arcana is only really worth anything at low levels, where it can be used to break the usual limits on the sort of magical pluses you're generally likely to have access to. Once you hit level 4 Magus and get the Spell Recall class feature, then you can effectively create a Force Athame with pool points anyway - by using those points for Spell Recall, then spending the spell to create the weapon. With Improved Spell Recall at level 11 the Pool-Sourced Athame arcana becomes something of a waste - since you could be using half the points to generate an athame via Improved Spell Recall and sacrificing the recalled spell. By level 13, when you get access to level 5 spells, there's no real point to the arcana at all.
Of course, that probably makes the Pool-Sourced Athame arcana best for low-level, slow moving, games - like a lot of PbP - where the ability to generate a +5 weapon at level 3 is still impressive...
Unless you find you really need the extra Feats, I'd imagine that full Magus is the way to go - you need to keep adding Magus levels to up the Arcane Pool weapon boosting bonuses, and it's the double-dipping those bonuses which is the real strength of the Spellblade in the first place.
The Pool-Sourced Athame arcana is only really worth anything at low levels, where it can be used to break the usual limits on the sort of magical pluses you're generally likely to have access to. Once you hit level 4 Magus and get the Spell Recall class feature, then you can effectively create a Force Athame with pool points anyway - by using those points for Spell Recall, then spending the spell to create the weapon. With Improved Spell Recall at level 11 the Pool-Sourced Athame arcana becomes something of a waste - since you could be using half the points to generate an athame via Improved Spell Recall and sacrificing the recalled spell. By level 13, when you get access to level 5 spells, there's no real point to the arcana at all.
Of course, that probably makes the Pool-Sourced Athame arcana best for low-level, slow moving, games - like a lot of PbP - where the ability to generate a +5 weapon at level 3 is still impressive...
mmmm full Magus would work for sure but then your focus shifts away from the force dagger and more onto spell combat.
on the other hand a Magus3/Ranger17 or Magus3/Fighter17 (both BAB +19) would if you take extra pool have enough pool points to have a nice +5 force dagger in the offhand over pretty much the entire course of characters TWF life.
stack the damage enchaments on the mainhand weapon and keep the offhand force dagger with the +5 bonus to keep it hitting often and straight through any DR or resistances.
mmmm Magus 3 /Summoner Synthesist 17 .... pouncing TWF force dagger ... hrmmm
bit of a side question but does anyone know a way apart from enlarge person or similar to increase the die size on the dagger to a d6, d8 or better ?
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Careful on picking multiple variants of the same class. Don't have my book handy but I didn't think the Spellblade stacked with the Kensai Magus...
The Spellblade archetype only modifies the Spellstrike class feature, whereas the Kensai archetype doesn't modify that feature, so the two stack just fine.
... In truth I don't think you're going to want to invest in spells to increase the base die of your weapon...
Enlarging for dagger damage alone is pretty worthless, but a Kensai using a big base die main weapon (such as a bastard sword or war axe) with a Force Athame in the off hand could get some use out of enlarge person and similar spells... wouldn't be my first choice for a high Dexterity two-weapon fighting build though, to be honest.
... My expample is going to be slightly off from yours as I have spellstrike and you won't, but I'd rather free touch attack 5d6 than have my dagger do an extra 2 dmg from the increased size/strength...
It's somewhat of a myth that Spellstrike gets you extra attacks - it doesn't, it lets you take the normal free attack you get when you cast a melee touch spell with a weapon instead of as a melee touch attack (or an unarmed strike or a natural attack - both of which any spellcaster can do). It's the Spell Combat which gets you extra attacks (cast + full iterative attacks). So, even without Spellstrike, a Spellblade Magus can use Spell Combat to cast a shocking grasp, make a touch attack as part of that casting, then get his full iterative attacks with his main weapon - what he can't do is use his Force Athame to Two Weapon Fight on the same round as he uses Spell Combat (since Spell Combat is already, in effect, a variant type of TWF), or to use his Force Athame for his weapon attacks (the hand is either devoted to casting, or devoted to using the Force Athame each turn, it can't do both at once).
The problem with treating the Spellblade Magus as a dip class is that you fail to get the real benefit from the archetype - which is TWF with double-dipped Arcane Pool weapon boosting bonuses. More so than the other Magus types, the Spellblade is focused on that Arcane Pool weapon boosting ability, so you really need to stick it out as a Magus to increase the amount of boost you get.
While, yes, the ability to generate a +5 Force weapon at level 3 is neat and all, it's an expensive party piece for a three level 'dip', when you're unlikely to be able to pull it off more than once a day or so, and as you start to level up that +5 bonus starts to look less and less impressive.
On the other hand, when you can sacrifice a spell and drop a single Arcane Pool point to end up with a pair of flaming, frost, shock weapons with which to TWF then the archetype starts to look more attractive.
Spellblades can also get away with being Dexterity-based builds. They'll need high Dexterity to qualify for the higher level TWF Feats anyway, and the Force Athame is a light weapon, so Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike would seem to be the way to go. Strength, on the other hand, is less important than usual, because (a little like a Rogue TWF who relies on Sneak Attack damage and multiple hits) the Spellblade can rely on extra magical weapon effects for boosted damage.
The only part of this I don't get is how you're using spell combat while you are dual wielding. Where does the force athame go when you are casting? Does it affect it's duration when you get rid of it so you can bring it back again without having to expend more arcane pool points? I only briefly read over the spellblade but the flavor of it seemed to be that you are a TWF moreso than a spell caster. You've chosen to sacrifice your arcane talents to provide yourself with a magical force weapon that occupies your spell casting hand. Even if you were to use a free action to transfer your weapon to another hand what hand is free to hold it? Only reason it works with sword and board is that its a strap that secures a shield to your arm and leaves your hand relatively free by comparison to wielding another weapon.
Check out the Spellblade description you'll see its got its own rules which basically sum up to your hand is considered free while wielding a force athame. thus you can choose to TWF or spell combat at will.
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... No need to italicize and come across condescending.
You are, of course, free to assume any tone you want when reading what I've written - how could anyone stop you? Condescension wasn't the intent. Generally we're a pretty friendly bunch on these boards, in my experience at least, so I'd gently suggest that maybe assuming the worst of people isn't the way to read stuff you find here... but that's just a friendly suggestion and you are, of course, free to take it or leave it (and to assume any implied tone you may imagine I'm typing it with, ignoring the friendly nature in which it's intended) - your choice.
Second I never said spellstrike gives you extra attacks. I said that I personally would rather a free touch attack for a shocking grasp than an enlarge person. This is provided by spell combat as you stated.
Fair enough. You did, however, suggest that having Spellstrike or not made a difference in decided to use the shocking grasp spell or not. This being a public forum, I thought it an opportune moment to write about a common misconception to the use of Spellstrike which is encountered, as those with such a misconception who read your comments may have had that misconception reinforced... That you now reveal that you don't share that misconception is fine and all, but it doesn't really invalidate what I wrote for general consumption, IMHO. YMMV of course.
... but if you're going for a dex build why are you taking a weapon with a bigger damage die like a bastard sword that is a one handed martial weapon that only benefits from strength...
I wouldn't take such a weapon for a Dexterity-based build. I didn't write that I would. It seems a little like you're dancing around different parts of what has been written in the thread with no eye towards context. To help clarify my general position on the two, seperate, things which seem to be mashed together here: if your character is using a big base damage die weapon, then spells and effects like enlarge person are good; if your character is going for a high Dexterity build, then Two Weapon Fighting with a pair of daggers and the Piranha Strike Feat is good. Unless you're playing an Alchemist with a vestigial arm or something, I doubt you'll have a character doing both at once, but again YMMV... ;)
I hope that clears things up a bit?
In any case: happy Christmas! :)
elf seems like a decent choice for this since in the first 3-5 levels its really not effective to be using spell combat or dual wielding and esp with kensai killing most of your proficiencies you can take elven curve blade as your 1 exotic weapon as well as using a longbow.
the weapon finesse and piranha strike can both be applied to the elven curve blade for levels 1-4, your acane pool can juice up the blade to a +1 which is nice.
the long bow also gives you a decent ranged option which your going to need with the poor AC during those levels (no light armor prof and arcane spell failure applies) leather might be the best option with no ACP and only 10% failure.
I figure once hitting 5th and picking up double slice and TWF you can switch to using daggers (one force, potentially 1 blackblade dagger) as the daggers will now be getting -2/+4 from piranha strike plus a base of +2 plus another +2 from arcane pool.
mirthal chain or another +4 no ACP no arcane failure armor seems fairly essential for this character until you can max out the dex bonus.
How would people build this with a 15 point buy as a dex build ?
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You can't use Piranha Strike with a curve blade, because it's not a light weapon (even though it is finessable), and the Feat is light weapons only, sorry.
Personally, I'd consider going halfling, as you only lose an average of 0.5 points of dagger damage from having a smaller weapon, but gain the size bonus to hit, as well as to AC (and sneaking too, which isn't build-specific, but just kinda' universally helpful). Thanks to relying on magical effects which aren't affected by size for the bulk of the build's damage (once you hit level 5+ and start applying frost and the like to your daggers), and not relying on Strength, the smaller size is nearly all win.
You can't use Piranha Strike with a curve blade, because it's not a light weapon (even though it is finessable), and the Feat is light weapons only, sorry.
Personally, I'd consider going halfling, as you only lose an average of 0.5 points of dagger damage from having a smaller weapon, but gain the size bonus to hit, as well as to AC (and sneaking too, which isn't build-specific, but just kinda' universally helpful). Thanks to relying on magical effects which aren't affected by size for the bulk of the build's damage (once you hit level 5+ and start applying frost and the like to your daggers), and not relying on Strength, the smaller size is nearly all win.
Hrmmm small size hadn't even considered that heh guess you somtimes just get a mental image of what your character is going to look like and somtimes that stop you from looking at certain options.
mmm shall have to look into that.