Probably last post from me on this topic. I want to share a gaming experience.
I was GM for a group recently were this subject pretty much killed the campaign.
A) All good PC's (no paladin, but close to that attitude for a couple of them anyway).
B) They were in a country where slavery is legal within sharply defined limits.
C) The group was hired to find a rich merchant's kidnapped son. He thought the son might have been sold to shady slavers. He was willing to buy the son out of slavery, but had been unable to locate him.
D) The group found a slave training fortress nearby outside of the city run by humans, gnolls, and hobgoblins that seemed likely. {It was loosely based on the old A1 Slave Lords module.}
E) The group felt IC that all slavery is horrible and should be eliminated.
F) The group proceeded to assault the fortress and killed 2/3 of the guards and leaders. Freed all of the slaves (including the son). Openly brought the former slaves back to town for medical attention. Went to the local constable to turn over the evil assassin weapons they found in the fortress. And told the constable that they were going back for the rest of the guards.
This is roughly the equivalent of going to Amsterdam, deciding prostitution is evil, entering a legal brothel, murdering most of the staff, telling the cops you did it, then telling the cops you are going to go back and do more of it.
The problems is that they assumed EVERYONE must agree with them.
1) They did not question anyone or try to find any evidence that the slavers were breaking the law (they were and the evidence was readily available).
2) They did not try to conceal anything at all. They expected the city people to praise them for destroying a local business.
3) They took the slaves right back to the city where they were thought to be legally bound slaves.
4) They walked right up to the local authorities and told them what they had done and that they were going to finish the job.
5) So now the slaver guild is after them. The church behind that particular slaver is after them. And the local authorities want to arrest/execute them for mass murder.
I was totally flabbergasted. I tried to repeatedly give warnings to them. They couldn't get past 'SLAVERY IS BAD EVERYONE SHOULD STOP IT' to think about any type of consequence or result. I had no idea how to salvage anything from the campaign I had planned. Even if we figured out some way to avoid a TPK or started a new group of PC's, these players were clearly not able to handle this subject.
That is why I said earlier that you have to be sure your group (GM and all of the players) is capable of handling a subject like this. Mine clearly was not.
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I’m reminded of a Legacy of Fire game I was in where I played a true neutral Halfling slave who worked her way to freedom, then eventually rose up to be the party leader. After much adventuring, we returned to Katapesh and two of the players decided to go off alone to the slave markets and purchase their own elven slave. It led to some interesting roleplaying encounters for them as they purchased her, but when we all got together my character was furious and slapped the guy who bought the slave (not an easy feat for a Halfling).
It didn’t completely overwhelm the campaign or sideline it too much, but looking back on it I can’t think of any reason why they might have done that other than to be deliberately antagonistic to my character. I guess some people like to make waves, and the best way to deal with it is not give them too much attention. In my case my character tried to ignore the fact that the NPC was a slave and treat her as nicely as possible (as I would any hireling), while at the same time making sure the owner knew how displeased I was with the whole situation.
Hope that helps a little.
Kinda silly since slavery was pretty much the norm in every society ever and was considered to be perfectly okay both morally and legally at some point.
Pretty much this. Slavery, although it certainly can be corrupted (and, due to the corruption inherent in humanity when one gains power over another, usually is) does not mean that it has no redeeming value, dependent entirely upon the society it is found within. I would never argue that slavery is the "best" way for any society. But I would argue that it's certainly the "better" way that some societies found to function.
* A choice: bitter, continuing war and slaughter or temporary (short term) slavery?
* A choice: infinite impoverishment due to bad choices or temporary slavery?
These were historical ways that slavery was implemented as a "better" option. Obviously a complete lack of war and kind and generous treatment to those in need would be "best", but those weren't always options - some people simply lacked the resources, knowledge, technology, and other elements that are necessary to make the "best" decisions as we understand them.
Now, reducing a slave to a non-person and being cruel to them just because you can and/or its financially more viable? Certainly evil. There is no question about that. But that is hardly the universal case for slavery, even if it is the most common portrayal and what slavery can (and often does) devolve into.
To clarify there were laws on the books of some societies that allowed a person to not even sell themselves, but literally give themselves to a master - permanently! - because they loved the owner (presumably a platonic love). And this occurred! That in itself testifies to the fact that not all slavery is always evil.
Again, complete emancipation is the best. All people are created as equals in dignity and humanity, thus deserve rights and dignity afforded to them as such. But that doesn't make something that has been terrible in more recent times terrible amongst all times and in all situations.
Also @Tacticslion - I suppose it's possible but assuming they have been journeying together for some time the characters are at the very least acquaintances. And the Paladin's ploy would have been directly responsible for the fugitive status of the Slave owner.
In that sort of situation how could an honorable man ignore that and leave him to run with probably the rest of the party?
I'd say the honorable man is honor bound to protect the weak and innocent, more than the jerky and overbearing. If someone did something wicked and I said, "Hey, stop it." and they didn't and they got in trouble because of it, I'm not going to share the consequences of their poor decision making, regardless of whether I'm their friend or not. I'll try and make things as pleasant as possible, but sometimes that's just not valid.
In this case, I'd say the paladin (which the player's admitted might leave anyway) would probably take the slave and leave with them in order to ensure said character's freedom. New character rolled up later.
The Fugitive status doesn't really apply (presuming Golarion and the River Kingdoms, which I am, due to that being the whole original suggestion I made). In the River Kingdoms by being a former slave owner, you're not a fugitive. Only if you do something to try and continue to be a slave owner while within the boarders can you become a fugitive. That would kind of be like if you were used to a complete lack of speed limits, but, when a police officer giving you a legal speeding ticket in a zone with a speed limit, you then punch him and are left wondering why you're put into prison.
It doesn't matter if what's legal in other countries, states, counties, cities, or even neighborhoods - if you learn that something's illegal somewhere, you don't continue to do it there unless you're willing to face the consequences (of course you could try and evade the consequences, but a paladin wouldn't be a liar, it'd violate his code).
I wouldn't spend the night in a prison cell with my friend, no matter how much "solidarity" we'd built up, if he punched an officer: that was a stupid act and he deserved to get punished for it (I'd probably bale him out once, if I had the money, and he promised good behavior, though). If he ran... well, I'd stay where I was and presumably I'd hear something later.
In this case, it's similar - okay, so he did something illegal "out there" where it was legal, but as long as he follows the laws here, he's fine. If he resists and does something stupid, OH WELL. I'd try and prevent him from dying, but again, why would I (abiding by the law, which I agree with) suddenly start to fight the law, just because my friend doesn't like it and can't keep his hands to himself? I'd do him little good as a fugitive, but much good as a free man able to bail him out or free him later. Similarly, if I was with a bunch of friends and they all started fighting for him, I'd be the one calling for everyone to stop fighting, 'cause that's stupid.
Now, if there was a country on the books where slave owners were put to death instantly, just because, well, I'd fight against that. But even the River Kingdoms, harsh as it is there, doesn't have anything like that, at least that I've read.
In Andoran, similarly, a slave would likely be freed by the Eagle Knights. They might watch the ex-owner suspiciously for a while, but he'd hardly be a fugitive.
For anything else, I'd need more information before I could say. But as those were the extent of my suggestions, that's the extent of my predictions. :)
Slavery in any form is one of the most indefensible evils I can conceive of - arguments about the legality of the institution or the treatment of slaves in fantastical settings wither on the vine.
A stern lecture to a rogue about respecting personal property or restraining a drunken barbarian intent on inciting a tavern brawl are roleplaying tensions I can relate to with a Lawful Good PC - tolerating irredeemable wickedness on the part of a fellow party member is not.
Explain the value of self-determination and freedom to your fellow PC - allow him to liberate this wretched soul on his own. Failing that, free him/her yourself. If your companion persists in his vile behavior, either cast him out or smite him so that he may sin no more.
Kinda silly since slavery was pretty much the norm in every society ever and was considered to be perfectly okay both morally and legally at some point.
Also @Tacticslion - I suppose it's possible but assuming they have been journeying together for some time the characters are at the very least acquaintances. And the Paladin's ploy would have been directly responsible for the fugitive status of the Slave owner.
In that sort of situation how could an honorable man ignore that and leave him to run with probably the rest of the party?
You're right - the prevalence of slavery in the past definitely invalidates any moral claims we make now about it now (rolls eyes).
This entire conversation thread has skeeved me out, gang - I love RPGs as much as the next guy/girl, but I think its a bit sinister to entertain the notion that a "good society" can embrace or even tolerate the enslavement of human beings (elves, dwarves, etc.). Why would you want to roleplay someone/somewhere of such ethical repugnance?
You're right - the prevalence of slavery in the past definitely invalidates any moral claims we make now about it now (rolls eyes).
This entire conversation thread has skeeved me out, gang - I love RPGs as much as the next guy/girl, but I think its a bit sinister to entertain the notion that a "good society" can embrace or even tolerate the enslavement of human beings (elves, dwarves, etc.). Why would you want to roleplay someone/somewhere of such ethical repugnance?
So all those societies were evil?
All slave owners (who kept their slaves) were evil, since forever?I suppose you believe in 100% absolute morality, and 0% subjective morality?
Never mind that playing characters who break into the homes of other races, chop them up them and rob them of their belongings is pretty common.
Do you take village-destroying Dragons to court as war criminals, or do you kill them?
What's the morality of walking up and killing badguys because they're suspected badguys? Doing that nowadays is pretty unethical.
If you're going to import contemporary morality and ethics into PF, do it or don't do it... or if you're going do it halfway, and be contradictory and inconsistent and hypocritical, accept (even embrace) the associated labels.
You're right - the prevalence of slavery in the past definitely invalidates any moral claims we make now about it now (rolls eyes).
1. You only have one eye.
2. Credit card company's practice legalize slavery, under the guise of indentured servitude.
3. Example of freeman slave, You earn 10 silver a week, -5 silver for rent on your house, -3 silver a week on tools/expense related to working, -3 silver in food. Plus 1 silver interest to your debt once a month. You work for a week to earn -1 silver. By the end of one month you owe Mr. Fishy 5 silver.
Toil Free Man Toil!!!
And it's legal becuase you're still free to leave as soon as you clear your debt with Mr. Fishy.
A least slavery is honest about it.
I'd agree except I think the analogy is a bit off.
In this case it would be like you have a friend who lives somewhere without speed limits, and he follows those laws.
But since you feel speeding is immoral you subtly convince him to drive over into the neighboring area where speeding isn't legal to teach him a lesson.
He of course doesn't know this, or he wouldn't go into that area with you, and when the cop comes over to give him a ticket he gets into an argument and either a. loses his car or b. gets into a fight with the cop.
Can you just sit in the car feeling smug and self satisfied and feel like you did the right thing?
To a point. Dude's gonna get himself killed driving like that!
Joking aside, I grant that yours is more of a direct analogy, but the problem is, of course, we're dealing with the morality of an act and keeping a person instead of the danger of going too fast (a difference that I grant is in the first analogy, but less important in said analogy than in yours, as the focus of what's happening is different).
And no, I wouldn't feel smug. But I certainly would attempt to stop him from getting into fisticuffs with an officer. Because doing so is not wise. And if he does, I'm not going to get into a fight, nor run off with him if he wins and does that. I'm staying free and bailing him out later. Thoughtfulness and all that.
SPOON! Eat my justice!
I like the treat him as a person and help him lift himself up to where he wants to free himself ideas. Once the slave knows he isn't property and in the correct place where slavery isn't allowed problem solved (hopefully)! Teach a man to fish, man.
SGH
The Player and the GM will have to work out between them what the doctrine and teachings of Sarenrae are regarding slavery. There are Old Testement biblical verses one can use as guidelines for creating your own, remembering always that "A slave in the Bible (or in Greek, Roman, Islamic, or Egyptian history for that matter) is not the same as a slave in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. This new form of plantation slavery was unique in history in that it was based solely on race." (quote from http://etori.tripod.com/slave-verses.html)
If, say, the player encounters an escaped slave somewhere, asking the GM "What are Sarenrae's teachings about this ?" is perfectly legitimate. The GM getting the player's input into what the player thinks those teachings would be is also a good idea, but the GM has the final say.
And if the GM chooses to model Sarenrae's teachings on a bible verse, it might be this one.
Deuteronomy 23:15-16 "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee: He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."
Or not. Sarenrae's teaching might be that you should return the servant if feasable while giving the owner "instruction" on the way Sarenrae expects him to behave in the future. Or maybe Sarenrae's teaching is to determine the facts of the matter (Why did the servant run away ?) and take a different course of action depending on conditions.
OK Malignor - let's take this back a step - question was whether a paladin (LG, I'm assuming) should regard slavery as immoral and worthy of action (whatever that is) - my response was that it is "evil." Many of these posts have taken the devil's advocate stance that "historically, slavery was..." or "in some societies, slavery could be..." I call "nonsense," and that slavery is always an evil institution.
A little "contemporary morality" here: I'm a veteran who has actually seen honest-to-goodness slavery in some of the most disgusting backwaters you could imagine, and I now write as a foreign correspondent, reporting on these same issues - I mention this because my actual life experiences have prompted a (rare) reply to an interesting thread, instead of just reading and enjoying. I would feel just as uncomfortable with gamers speculating on the morality of rape, child abuse, or genocide in their respective campaigns, and justifying the acceptance of such practices (with more than a little relish, it seems to me). It's ghoulish and in poor taste, at best. Though I suppose role-playing such things has its appeal for some people - who am I to judge their (questionable) tastes?
Power Word Thrill, I am equally surprised and overjoyed that people like you exist. You actually have views similar to mine in regards to things like slavery and rape (and other horrid things) !!
Anyway, I am not sure what to say, since if you ask me, the Paladin should either buy the slavery to freedom or just release him/her by other means, and then start breaking down the whole slave trade with whatever non-evil methods he/she has at his/her disposal.
Power Word Thrill, I am equally surprised and overjoyed that people like you exist. You actually have views similar to mine in regards to things like slavery and rape (and other horrid things) !!
Anyway, I am not sure what to say, since if you ask me, the Paladin should either buy the slavery to freedom or just release him/her by other means, and then start breaking down the whole slave trade with whatever non-evil methods he/she has at his/her disposal.
Role-playing being what it is, the options are endless I suppose - withhold healing or other divine aid until the slave is free, or find a homeless and disenfranchised demihuman street urchin willing to work as a servant for food and shelter until they can better their situation - why not an apprentice to the character's profession, or pledge to help in the purchase of an animated statue or golem as substitute if your fellow adventurer simply MUST have someone(thing) under his total command?
OK Malignor - let's take this back a step - question was whether a paladin (LG, I'm assuming) should regard slavery as immoral and worthy of action (whatever that is) - my response was that it is "evil." Many of these posts have taken the devil's advocate stance that "historically, slavery was..." or "in some societies, slavery could be..." I call "nonsense," and that slavery is always an evil institution.
IRL, I'm inclined to agree that slavery is indeed an evil institution. Even an armchair judge like myself can watch many a crime drama or documentary on human trafficking and slavery. Even if, after watching, we question the message and take a moment to decide objectively for ourselves, the vast majority of us will see it as immoral by any progressively social standard, not in and of itself, but because we have lots of selfish and abusive individuals among us, and allowing people to own slaves will inevitably lead to all manner of abominable cruelty, neglect and abuse. Your personal experiences may have been quite moving, and mine far more passive, but we're both looking at the same conclusion.
I claim that your experiences, though remarkable, are emotionally dominating your judgment.
As for a fantasy setting, where things are simplified, it's a different world. The attributes of individuals are able to be mapped to entire classifications of social groups ("LG kingdom", "NE race"), so you could take a very idealistic, selfless and generous slave owner and paint an entire society with that same brush. Absurdly idealistic laws, regarding slavery, can be introduced and even enforced with the aid of magic or divine intervention. For example, if slavery were temporary, the alternative to imprisonment, used for rehabilitation or integration of prisoners into society, and only people who pinged positive on "Detect Law" and "Detect Good" could apply for a slave ownership certificate ... how evil an institution would that turn out?
Similarly, this discussion is regarding individual PCs, not institutions. Again, we can have a saintly individual owning slaves, and it may be for the benefit of the slave. If the slave were a member of some race of group which is the official enemy of a state, but is protected by being the property (and responsibility) of another, then slavery could be the alternative to a violent death at the hands of angry commoners. In the above scenario of regulated slavery-replacing-imprisonment, it could be a way to help criminals or prisoners of war assimilate into, and contribute to, a peaceful and beneficial society... thus the PC is rehabilitating a criminal by taking temporary ownership of him/her.
The paladin, faced with a slavery-supported society, could scheme to own as many slaves as possible, to guarantee that they are treated well... sort of "work within the system". He could not only treat them well, he could train them to become servants of his church or knightly order, then free them. Paladins need not force a mindset at sword point. Options abound.
Cleanse the world with fire!
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I own a slave. His name is Kuruk, and he is a Hobgoblin.
After we crushed his little war band and sorted out who was worth keeping, I decided Kuruk would be mine and mine alone. My fellow Drow Nobles are jealous, and continue to undermine my monopoly over Kuruk, but Kuruk knows who his master is, and he knows that I treat him well. I do so as insurance, so that he will remain obedient in my absence, and it has paid off: I have tactfully given him many opportunities to escape or rebel. But he does not. Likely because he knows I can hunt him down, and he's seen how swift I can be at siphoning blood from a person's throat.
Kuruk is also wise, likely resulting from his disciplined training at some Monastary of Fire he murmers about. He is wise because he knows that, if he escapes or rebels, he will be a "free" hobgoblin in Drow territory... which is another word for "pest". Drow will either kill him for sport, capture and torture him to death for sport, or enslave him... and most Drow are not as generous and manipulative to their slaves as I am (which may explain their short lifespans - such short-term thinking). Yes, I hope to keep my hand on Kuruk's leash for a long, long time... at least as long as he remains a useful tool of mine, anyway.
As for slavery in general, understand that there are 4 kinds of creature in the universe: