white-haired witches, touch spells and arcane failure


Rules Questions


Good morning everyone, it's time to bother you with more white witch nonsense.

So the white-haired witch gains a natural hair attack, which nothing else to my knowledge has. Neat. However, it never scales up past 1d4+int.5 aside from constriction, so you're dealing, at best, 1d4+int.5+2d4+int.5. lame.

But that's not what I'm here for. It concerns the hair and touching people with them. Since your hair can deliver touch spells, and as your hair lengthens, your sphere of influence on the field grows uncomfortably large. And seeing as, again, your hair does the spell and not you yourself, I ask this. Can a white-haired witch wear armour and cast spells without incurring an arcane failure, since he doesn't need to use his hands?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The hair is only the delivery mechanism. It does not supply the somatic component (if any) of the spell when it is cast.


I am no expert on this, so please correct me if I'm wrong, people of the interwebs!

Remember that casting a spell and delivering the spell are two separate things. I still think that would incur the normal penalties of wearing armour, unless the class is able to wear said armour and cast spells in it.

Such as Bard or Magus and so on...


So I'm stuck plodding around without any realistic defences. Great.

One more question, Since it just came to me. Level twenty, white-haired witch gets thirty feet of hair. With combat reflexes and a high enough dex, you can pretty much shut down the entire field.

So say a bunch of fighters try to come at you. Uh, four or so. You get an attack of opportunity on all of them when they enter your threat range, grapple them with grab. Are they all instantly sucked down your hair and plopped right in front of you, free to wail on you until you're a thin smear on the floor? Or do they get locked down where they got hit until you have to let three of them go on your next turn?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

From the grapple rules: "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

Nothing I see in the White-Haired Witch archetype overrides this.

Pro Tip: Use trip rather than grapple. You got that at 4th level.


That said, even if you try to trip, don't get your hopes up on actually succeeding. As a weedy half BAB caster, your CMB is going to be utter garbage even with int being used over str. Trying to do maneuvers on martials, let alone the typical giant monster is generally destined to fail.


We need a white haired witch 2.0.

>int to attack, damage, cmb and cmd.
>treat cmb scaling as per witch Level progression instead of normal bab.
>increase damage of hair every five levels, to a total of 2d6 at level fifteen.
>use hair for somatic casting.
>Can wear light armour without incurring a penalty, but only if it has no armour check penalty.

Look at that, way less rickety than before.


So, you want a witch that can use all her spells and hexes, plus can wear armor (due to the hair being the somatic portion of her spells), can cast spells with reduced problem while grappled or immobilized (due to the hair being somatic), and full BAB plus INT bonus for CMB?

Sure, it's "way less rickety" than before. It's also not balanced at all.


White haired witches don't get hexes, they have hair, and the full cmb thing is no more different than it is for a monk. Truth be told, I'm almost certain this started as a monk archetype in early development. But fair enough, that's actually pretty broken. But I insist that the witch have an increase in damage, if only up to a d8.


I stand corrected! But nevertheless, giving the WHW a full BAB for its CMDs plus using Intelligence bonus for attack rolls, damage rolls and the CMB/CMD along with its spell capabilities would be a bit much. Even though I think the archetype is underpowered (the hair abilities cannot compete with Hexes, and the Rogue Talents are not good replacements for Major Hexes, either), but giving them the hefty CMB (equal to or greater than that of any melee class) and the ability to trip or grapple as swift actions is just too much as a spellcasting class.


Wait a second. Yesterday, SlimGauge said that my hair would pull people into contact range after I hit them with an attack of opportunity, but according to the character page, you don't register as grappled when using your hair, so you can still move around and do stuff. And why would it have Pull as a swift action combat maneuver when my hair would automatically draw them in regardless?

Am I missing something here? Because it seems to me that the grappling is closer to entanglement than anything, not to mention just how outright suicidal it is to yank a bunch of orcs to right in front of you.


Also unrelated, but how does a ranged grapple work if you're using a barbed arrow or bolt? Does it automatically draw them into you like if you just had reach?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Read the rules quote again. "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."

You're referring to a different rule, from the White Haired Witch archetype. "When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition."

You have successfully grappled a creature (triggering the first rule) without gaining the grappled condition yourself (by the second rule). Your opponent gains all of the disadvantages of being grappled (can't move from the square, -4 to dex, -2 to attack, can't make AoOs, no two-hand actions) while the witch does not.

I see no reason you can't grapple as your AoO (moving your target adjacent) and then on your turn maintaining your grapple as a standard action and then moving to the limit of your hair's range, since YOU don't have the grappled condition.

For ranged grapple stuff, look at other threads like => this one


My problem is that, unless you take greater grapple and rapid grapple to pad out your throttling, if you reactively hit three or more people with your hair on their turns, you're suddenly stuck with two barbarians and a really unhappy rogue when you maintain on the last guy. Meaning you get three attacks of opportunity as you try to get away.

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm just running in circles. This was one of the very first things I learned about when I was introduced to Pathfinder. And now I feel like I'm having my heart broken over just how awful this archetype seems to be, and how it just seems like the guy who made this forgot half of his notes.

But, on the plus side, I think I have an idea that could kind of fix it. hear me out.

Flight, combat reflexes, feral combat training. Fly up thirty feet, hair someone, yank them up, let go as a free action, sucker punch them as they fall, rinse and repeat until your out of attacks of opportunity, let them hit the ground yet again, smack them one more time, drag him up, let him fall another thirty feet. If you have at least eighteen dex, that's five attacks of opportunity. With two normal attacks, that's 1d4+ing and a half times seven. And then add another, one, two...21d6 from fall damage. And then on his turn, he stands up and provokes another attack.

Holy crap, this is suddenly cool again.


Spermy The Cat wrote:

My problem is that, unless you take greater grapple and rapid grapple to pad out your throttling, if you reactively hit three or more people with your hair on their turns, you're suddenly stuck with two barbarians and a really unhappy rogue when you maintain on the last guy. Meaning you get three attacks of opportunity as you try to get away.

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm just running in circles. This was one of the very first things I learned about when I was introduced to Pathfinder. And now I feel like I'm having my heart broken over just how awful this archetype seems to be, and how it just seems like the guy who made this forgot half of his notes.

But, on the plus side, I think I have an idea that could kind of fix it. hear me out.

Flight, combat reflexes, feral combat training. Fly up thirty feet, hair someone, yank them up, let go as a free action, sucker punch them as they fall, rinse and repeat until your out of attacks of opportunity, let them hit the ground yet again, smack them one more time, drag him up, let him fall another thirty feet. If you have at least eighteen dex, that's five attacks of opportunity. With two normal attacks, that's 1d4+ing and a half times seven. And then add another, one, two...21d6 from fall damage. And then on his turn, he stands up and provokes another attack.

Holy crap, this is suddenly cool again.

Falling is involuntary movement, involuntary movement only provokes if a special ability (e.g. Greater Bull Rush feat). So this doesn’t work.


Alright. Plan B.

Same as before, but also become a thirty-foot bad touch. Inflict critical, Rime-boosted Lineage-negated Frostbite, reduce and enlarge for her pleasure.

Because other than that, I am giving up on this thing. So disappointed.


One correction to the OP - 'This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.' Not half the modifier.


avr wrote:
One correction to the OP - 'This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.' Not half the modifier.

Er, no, when I say the hair does int.5, I mean int and a half, since it's a primary natural attack.

Apologies for confusion.


Not to mention, if you hoist them 30 feet in the air they get another grapple check at +4, as you're hoisting them to a dangerous place.

There is a way to make this work, sort of, btw. You just dip one level of WHW, for the free hair attack, the king crab familiar and the UMD.

For the rest of it go martial classes for feats to boost your grapple.


We run the grapple using the monster grab rules as suggested online. It just works way better.


Spermy The Cat wrote:

Wait a second. Yesterday, SlimGauge said that my hair would pull people into contact range after I hit them with an attack of opportunity, but according to the character page, you don't register as grappled when using your hair, so you can still move around and do stuff. And why would it have Pull as a swift action combat maneuver when my hair would automatically draw them in regardless?

Am I missing something here? Because it seems to me that the grappling is closer to entanglement than anything, not to mention just how outright suicidal it is to yank a bunch of orcs to right in front of you.

WHW wrote:

In addition, a white-haired witch further improves her ability to control her hair as she progresses in level, gaining the following abilities:

...
Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action*.

If the improvement Pull is to do anything, the result of the grapple must not leave the victim adjacent. Specific WHW rule overrides the general grapple rule.

/cevah

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