... Rogue!

[Dave Leach]

Hello PFS folks,

I'm about to join a local PFS campaign and I'm interested in rolling a Rogue. Despite hearing lackluster things about Rogues in general, I'm sticking to my guns as they've always been my favorite class. I may dip into a Fighter or a Ranger archetype at some point along the way, but I'm not sure when, or which one.

I'm not gunning for max DPR, but I am hoping to create a surgical striker, a Rogue that can run in, spike a ton of damage (and crit and/or talent effects), and get out without getting himself killed. I'm looking at a Scout/Bandit mix, for Ambush at 4th level and Skirmish at 8th. Spring Attack sounds like fun, as does the Rogue talent Fast Getaway, maybe Lunge/Monkey Lunge. Pretty much anything that will get me in, drop a big hit and get me out. Feats that allow for additional movement, anything to disengage me from combat.

I'll otherwise be a skill monkey and likely a party face, a Swiss army knife type of character. I don't expect to carry the team with my combat prowess, but I'd certainly like to contribute.

I'm not overly familiar with PFS. Any tips? Suggestions? I've heard there's an "Agility enhancement" that can make a Rogue's life a little easier. Anything else I should know about?

Thanks in advance!

[Fromper]

I'm no expert on this type of character, but it sounds like the Dodge and Mobility feats could be good for you, for getting in and out of combat safely.

Rapier will be a good weapon for you, just for the 18-20 crit range. Maybe take Improved Critical as your 11th level feat (the earliest you can get it) to double the crit range.

Given that you may have to rely on a lot of feats, it may be advisable to go human, just for the bonus feat at first level. Actually, if you're sure you're going to dip into fighter for a level or more, it would also be wise to take that at first level, just so you can get the better level 1 HP, then add rogue at level 2.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Hello PFS folks,

I'm about to join a local PFS campaign and I'm interested in rolling a Rogue. Despite hearing lackluster things about Rogues in general, I'm sticking to my guns as they've always been my favorite class. I may dip into a Fighter or a Ranger archetype at some point along the way, but I'm not sure when, or which one.

I'm not gunning for max DPR, but I am hoping to create a surgical striker, a Rogue that can run in, spike a ton of damage (and crit and/or talent effects), and get out without getting himself killed. I'm looking at a Scout/Bandit mix, for Ambush at 4th level and Skirmish at 8th. Spring Attack sounds like fun, as does the Rogue talent Fast Getaway, maybe Lunge/Monkey Lunge. Pretty much anything that will get me in, drop a big hit and get me out. Feats that allow for additional movement, anything to disengage me from combat.

I'll otherwise be a skill monkey and likely a party face, a Swiss army knife type of character. I don't expect to carry the team with my combat prowess, but I'd certainly like to contribute.

I'm not overly familiar with PFS. Any tips? Suggestions? I've heard there's an "Agility enhancement" that can make a Rogue's life a little easier. Anything else I should know about?

Thanks in advance!

It sounds like you want to go with a weapon finesse rogue to me, correct? If so, look at an elvish curved blade. My first character used one, and my current character uses one as well. High threat range, good damage, and if you use UMD for the range spell "lead blades", it jumps to a really nice amount of damage. If you go for a crit centric character, I recommend grabbing the keen property on your blade instead of improved critical. I could afford the keen by lvl 5, and lord have mercy my character unloads the crits. As for the swiss army knife approach....a few points in int never hurt, they will boost up your skill ranks and let you do bloody near anything you feel like. You might want to take a look at the ninja class, too. Very similar to a rogue, but more of the stealthy type.

[Dave Leach]

Thanks guys. Fromper, you read my mind. Level 1 (maybe 2) dip into Fighter nets me HP, martial proficiencies and the all-important extra feat. I'd probably end up with at least a 2 level dip. I'll look into archetypes tomorrow, see if there's one that compliments my concept.

Human has already been determined. It works for the build and besides ... I always play Human. It's how I do. ;)

Ninja is certainly on my radar, Alexander. I'm really attracted to a few of the Rogue archetypes, however.

Speaking of which, Bandit/Scout doesn't work. They both replace the same base feature, which is a no-no. I did stumble across the Scout/Rake combo, though, which I actually prefer. Charge in for sneak, roll to Intimidate, enemy is demoralized/shaken. They're -2 to hit/save/check, granting me some protection. If I stack the Offensive Defense of Befuddling Blade talent, I'm afforded even more protection. It works as of level 4 and applications become broader as levels increase (especially at level 8 Scout).

This also opens to door to Dazzling Display/Sundered Defenses, which could result in a whole schwack of flat-footed sneak attacks and potential crits with juicy bleed damage.

But to do that I'd need Weapon Focus, I'd have to choose my blade. Elvish Curved, you say ...?

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Thanks guys. Fromper, you read my mind. Level 1 (maybe 2) dip into Fighter nets me HP, martial proficiencies and the all-important extra feat. I'd probably end up with at least a 2 level dip. I'll look into archetypes tomorrow, see if there's one that compliments my concept.

Human has already been determined. It works for the build and besides ... I always play Human. It's how I do. ;)

Ninja is certainly on my radar, Alexander. I'm really attracted to a few of the Rogue archetypes, however.

Speaking of which, Bandit/Scout doesn't work. They both replace the same base feature, which is a no-no. I did stumble across the Scout/Rake combo, though, which I actually prefer. Charge in for sneak, roll to Intimidate, enemy is demoralized/shaken. They're -2 to hit/save/check, granting me some protection. If I stack the Offensive Defense of Befuddling Blade talent, I'm afforded even more protection. It works as of level 4 and applications become broader as levels increase (especially at level 8 Scout).

This also opens to door to Dazzling Display/Sundered Defenses, which could result in a whole schwack of flat-footed sneak attacks and potential crits with juicy bleed damage.

But to do that I'd need Weapon Focus, I'd have to choose my blade. Elvish Curved, you say ...?

2 hand 1d10 18-20x2 weapon, finesse-able, and has a +2 CMD against sundering. Exotic weapon proficiency. If you are going to be using strength as your attack stat, this thing packs on the damage. My current character packs on crits for a good 40 damage a good 2-3 times per encounter at the lvl 5 range. 6d8+20 crits are wonders to behold, especially when they happen on a 15 and up!

[Dave Leach]

Sounds pretty great. Exotic proficiency, another feat. Hmm. I was hoping to use Finesse, Piranha Stike and the agile enhancement to make Dex a reasonable damage stat, but I really need to map the build and prioritize my feats.

Question, a little off topic but related to the build: Is the Pathfinder Delver prestige class legal for organized play?

[Thod]

Dave

Just go with it. You don't have to plan or optimize up to level 12 in advance [edit: unless this is the way you enjoy and prefer to game]. I have here several local players who have characters based on Merisiel.
These are casual players who started with a PreGen and not much time to finetune her. So far they all had fun and have contributed.

I also remember a game tier 4-5 where a new player took the level 4 pregen Merisiel and was the top damage dealer against a construct with DR using nothing but her rapier and flanking.

Off course you can optimize a lot beyond Merisiel. But my point is - don't be scared off by remarks and optimizations here on the board. I've seen players having a lot of fun with rogue builds likely much inferior to what you will come up with.

[Matthew Morris]

Dave,

If you have the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, I strongly suggest looking at the Lore Warden fighter for that level dip.

The rogue I was working on last night I'm planning to take as rogue 2/Lore warden 2 (or 3) and then back to rogue, so my skills don't suffer as much.

No idea how it will work at the table, but it sounds fun. Freed harem slave, picks up some more combat training, still works as an infiltrator/commando type.

[Jiggy]

Hm...

I kind of recommend going with daggers. Why? Two things:

1. There's a trait called River Rat that gives you +1 to damage with daggers, which will let you leave your STR lower so you can afford your other abilities that you want.
2. If you also use TWF, daggers are light and are therefore great for dual-wielding.

So you could do something like this (if human/half-elf/half-orc)
STR 12
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 14
(At level 4, you can bump INT to 12 and gain some extra skill ranks retroactively.)

If you're human or start with a level in fighter, you can begin your career with both Weapon Finesse and TWF, letting you hit twice for 1d4+2+Sneak(if flanking).

Alternatively, you could start with Weapon Finesse and a rapier, then after a level or two take Dervish Dance, which lets you apply DEX to damage instead of STR with a scimitar (you'll need to get proficiency, but a fighter dip will do it). This'll save you 6,000gp on an Agile enhancement on an 18-20 crit weapon.

So for the idea you seem to be going for, I'd go one of those two routes: TWF with daggers, or Dervish Dance.

Oh, one last tip: if you end up either skipping the fighter dip or taking a fighter archetype that's not proficient with medium armor, take the Armor Expert trait. That reduces your ACP by 1. Then, save up for a mithral breastplate, even though you're nonproficient. See, the nonproficiency penalty for armor is that the ACP gets applied to your attacks. But if you have a mithral breastplate and Armor Expert, the ACP is 0, so there's no penalty for not being proficient. Enjoy your extra AC. ;) (Of course, this doesn't matter if you gain proficiency through the fighter dip anyway, but I thought I'd mention it.)

[Matthew Morris]

Jiggy wrote:

Alternatively, you could start with Weapon Finesse and a rapier, then after a level or two take Dervish Dance, which lets you apply DEX to damage instead of STR with a scimitar (you'll need to get proficiency, but a fighter dip will do it). This'll save you 6,000gp on an Agile enhancement on an 18-20 crit weapon.

Hmm, thanks for that idea, food for thought if my rogue survives.

[Dave Leach]

Thod, I had to Google "Merisiel". I guess that shows how new I am to Pathfinder. :) I'd say I'm about 25% munchkin/optimizer, 75% roleplayer. The 25% comes out pre-game, during character creation. I love rules, I spend hours mulling over synergies and build progression, figuring out how best to make things "work". On the other hand, I insist that a character fit a certain theme, that every feat, talent and feature is justified via the backstory.

It's a tough way to go. I takes days to find a balance I can live with, something that straddles the line between effectiveness and theme. If even one aspect is off, it doesn't sit right. I'm a tad OCD about it, to be honest.

Matthew, get out of my head! I was *just* coming here to ask if the Lore Warden was PFS legal. It fits the character and I really dig the extra skills, and Combat Expertise ain't bad if I dip 2 levels. I'm also looking at the Tactician archetype for the extra skills and the +1 to initiative at level 2. Both fit well.

I was also wondering if the Pathfinder Delver PrC is legal or not ...? Looking at the additional resources (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/resources), I don't think it is ... but I wanted to double check. It not only fits the character, it also replaces my lost trapfinding with a single level dip.

Jiggy, thanks for the tips! I actually had this character as a Knife Master archetype for the longest time (+xd8 sneak), but decided to swap it out in favor of Rake (the Sundered Defenses potential is too juicy). I'm really interested in a high crit range, anything 18-20. Curved Elven is tempting; nice threat range, high base damage, finesseable. Bleed crit feat will likely play a part in this build.

I'm still out on TWF. I was thinking the build would be based heavily on the likes of Spring Attack and Fast Getaway, but with Rake entering the picture - the potential to shake a foe for -2 attack, plus Befuddling Strike and/or Offensive Defense - I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'll find a use for additional off-handed attacks.

Dervish Dance and Armor Expert, both great ideas. Definitely something to consider, though Dervish Dance would force me to rethink a few things, backstory wise. Thanks again!

[Jiggy]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Alternatively, you could start with Weapon Finesse and a rapier, then after a level or two take Dervish Dance, which lets you apply DEX to damage instead of STR with a scimitar (you'll need to get proficiency, but a fighter dip will do it). This'll save you 6,000gp on an Agile enhancement on an 18-20 crit weapon.

Hmm, thanks for that idea, food for thought if my rogue survives.

Of course, there are tradeoffs to consider. Agile costs you gold, DDance costs a feat (and some skill ranks). Agile works with any Finessable weapon, DDance only with the scimitar (which may require additional investment for proficiency). DDance requires light armor and an open hand (which may or may not preclude a buckler; that issue is not resolved), while Agile functions regardless.

Basically, it's cash versus hoop-jumping. But an option worth considering.

[Dave Leach]

I'll probably pass on the Dervish Dancer, if only because it runs so contrary to my established theme ... but it's a great idea. Something to keep under my hat for a future character. I really need to be stingy with my feats, as well. I have a feeling I'll be scraping by as is, even with taking full advantage of Rogue talent feats, extra Fighter levels and Human.

[Matthew Morris]

*nods* Right now, I'm going Cestus/dagger route for first level. (Not TWF, it just gives me a PB weapon and a PS weapon)

Question for your rules-fu though. Do you think Trapfinding/Trapsense is worth it for a rogue in Pathfinder? I don't want to give up (just delay) uncanny dodge or evasion.

[WalterGM]

Jiggy wrote:

I kind of recommend going with daggers. Why? Two things:

1. There's a trait called River Rat that gives you +1 to damage with daggers, which will let you leave your STR lower so you can afford your other abilities that you want.
2. If you also use TWF, daggers are light and are therefore great for dual-wielding.

3. You can use the Knife Master archetype and deal d8's with your sneak attack instead of d6's.

[Dave Leach]

I wonder the same thing. The Scout/Rake build sacrifices both Uncanny Dodge and Trapfinding. I can live without Uncanny Dodge (prefer not to, of course), but I'm NOT happy losing the ability to disarm magical traps. I guarantee that will come up, and those at the table will almost certainly look to the only Rogue ...

I've even considered a 2 level dip into and Archaeologist Bard, if only for the features:

Quote:

Archaeologist's Luck (Ex): Fortune favors the archaeologist. As a swift action, an archaeologist can call on fortune's favor, giving him a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. Maintaining this bonus is a free action, but it ends immediately if the archaeologist is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. Archaeologist's luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance. Like bardic performance, it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 11th level, and +4 at 17th level.

Clever Explorer (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains a bonus equal to half his class level on Disable Device and Perception checks. He can disable intricate and complex devices in half the normal amount of time (minimum 1 round) and open a lock as a standard action. At 6th level, an archaeologist can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or endangered, and can disarm magical traps. This ability replaces the versatile performance ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature of the same name. This ability replaces well-versed.

Two levels is a pretty steep price to pay for only a few features, of course. Gimps my BAB, fewer skills, for what? I don't think it's very practical, which is why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Delver.

That said ... I'll have a high Charisma to take advantage of Rake, so the Luck performance wouldn't be a total waste. Clever Explorer and Uncanny Dodge plug up the two big holes created by Scout/Rake. Bardic Knowledge? Okay. Not terrible. It applies. I'm not sure what else the Bard class brings to the table in terms of spells and whatnot. With only two levels, I assume they'd be pure utility with no real application. 4 cantrips and a couple level 1 spells. Maybe something useful, I need to look into it.

Probably a terrible idea.

The archetype fits, though. Especially in a PFS game.

[WalterGM]

Dave Leach wrote:

I was also wondering if the Pathfinder Delver PrC is legal or not ...? Looking at the additional resources (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/resources), I don't think it is ... but I wanted to double check. It not only fits the character, it also replaces my lost trapfinding with a single level dip.

It's legal.

"Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Seekers of Secrets wrote:

Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes. Equipment: ioun stones use method 1 for resonance and never use method 2. Additionally, only normal ioun stones have resonance—inferior ioun stones never do. Prestige Class: Pathfinder Savants replace the item creation feat prerequisite with Spell Focus

[Dave Leach]

Thanks WalterGM! Man, I looked last night for Seekers of Secrets but I couldn't do a search on my phone. Defeated by a wall of text. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear.

Pathfinder Delver

Considering a 2 level dip there. Surefooted is kind of badass.

I'm getting a little dip-happy, though. 1-2 level Fighter, 1-2 level Delver. I don't want to each into my sneak attack any more than I have to ...

[Matthew Morris]

Dang, that Pathfinder delver is tempting...

Nah, I'm going to stick with pure rogue. Waiting until 6th level might be difficult.

[WalterGM]

Dave Leach wrote:

Thanks WalterGM! Man, I looked last night for Seekers of Secrets but I couldn't do a search on my phone. Defeated by a wall of text. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear.

Pathfinder Delver

Considering a 2 level dip there. Surefooted is kind of badass.

I'm getting a little dip-happy, though. 1-2 level Fighter, 1-2 level Delver. I don't want to each into my sneak attack any more than I have to ...

Only 2? Thrilling Escape (lvl 3) looks so boss.

"Alright guys, I'm pretty sure this path is clear.. trigger a trap ..run, run run, RUN!!!"

[Dave Leach]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Dang, that Pathfinder delver is tempting...

Nah, I'm going to stick with pure rogue. Waiting until 6th level might be difficult.

It will be, and that's how I'm gonna justify it! :)

This guy will have been on several adventures by level 6, I'm hoping he stumbles across at least a few magical traps by then. Annoyed with his inability to deal with them, he takes it upon himself to learn the ropes during his down time at the Society. I'll only be getting a +1 on the Perception checks, but all the other stuff is juicy. Take 10 under stress would make the lack of a huge bonus less painful.

[Dave Leach]

WalterGM wrote:

Only 2? Thrilling Escape (lvl 3) looks so boss.

"Alright guys, I'm pretty sure this path is clear.. trigger a trap ..run, run run, RUN!!!"

You're killin' me, Walter. Guardbreaker is pretty rad, too:

Quote:

At 3rd level, a delver’s familiarity with the strange guardians often left in tombs allows him to attack them more effectively. He may treat his trap sense bonus as if it were a favored enemy bonus against constructs, oozes, and undead; this bonus stacks with any ranger favored enemy bonuses.

Situational, but against the right enemy and with a bucket load of levels in Rogue and trap sense stacking, it would make for a meaty bonus under ideal circumstances.

Arg. Vigilant Combatant at 4 is nice, as well. I need to stop reading.

[Dave Leach]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

2 hand 1d10 18-20x2 weapon, finesse-able, and has a +2 CMD against sundering. Exotic weapon proficiency. If you are going to be using strength as your attack stat, this thing packs on the damage. My current character packs on crits for a good 40 damage a good 2-3 times per encounter at the lvl 5 range. 6d8+20 crits are wonders to behold, especially when they happen on a 15 and up!

Going back to Alexander's suggestion, I wonder if I should being going this route. If I drop Rake archetype for Thug, bring my STR up to the min needed to qualify for Power Attack, suddenly I'm in the running for Cornugon Smash. I can still have a reasonably high Dex ...

This would seem to be a more efficient option, giving me more ways to scare people into not hitting me back while I flat-foot them and pummel with repeated sneak attacks.

Oops. Sorry for the triple post. I suppose I could've just edited. :P

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

2 hand 1d10 18-20x2 weapon, finesse-able, and has a +2 CMD against sundering. Exotic weapon proficiency. If you are going to be using strength as your attack stat, this thing packs on the damage. My current character packs on crits for a good 40 damage a good 2-3 times per encounter at the lvl 5 range. 6d8+20 crits are wonders to behold, especially when they happen on a 15 and up!

Going back to Alexander's suggestion, I wonder if I should being going this route. If I drop Rake archetype for Thug, bring my STR up to the min needed to qualify for Power Attack, suddenly I'm in the running for Cornugon Smash. I can still have a reasonably high Dex ...

This would seem to be a more efficient option, giving me more ways to scare people into not hitting me back while I flat-foot them and pummel with repeated sneak attacks.

Oops. Sorry for the triple post. I suppose I could've just edited. :P

Or keen + agile and you are in business. Expensive, sure, but it runs you no feats. But here is the thing i've found: don't focus on the mechanics so much. When I make a character, I sit down with a list of things I want him to do. I then find the class (or classes) that let him do it. I don't worry about optimization, I just focus on what would be fun for that character.

[Dave Leach]

Yessir, I agree. I decided against the Power Attack route, pretty much right away (posted in my original thread maybe 10 minutes after I suggested it). It doesn't mesh with my theme and I'd have to rethink the entire character to justify switching to Thug. Nuts to that! I also prefer the mechanics of Rake, even though the damage output is reduced. Given the choice, character and theme win out over DPR more often than not.

That said, I really do appreciate people coming in with advice on optimization. I'm always interested in what works and what doesn't!

[Callarek]

Dave Leach wrote:

Matthew, get out of my head! I was *just* coming here to ask if the Lore Warden was PFS legal. It fits the character and I really dig the extra skills, and Combat Expertise ain't bad if I dip 2 levels. I'm also looking at the Tactician archetype for the extra skills and the +1 to initiative at level 2. Both fit well.

Yes. Lore Warden is PFS legal. The Pathfinder Society Field Guide is part of the Core assumption, and everything in it is legal.

Which is good, my Lore Warden is third level, now. Going for a slightly odd build, power attack with a whip, and the Whip Mastery feat chain. Although one of the online games I played him in was very amusing, since we had a Lore Warden, Oracle of Lore, Bard, Cleric with the Knowledge domain, and a sorcerer. Lots of Knowledge skill rolls in that party, although we were a bit shy of DPR. And it is always amusing when a Fighter rolls a Spellcraft check....

[Dave Leach]

Lore Warden is pretty nice, but I think I'm leaning toward the Tactician archetype for the one or two level dip, assuming I decide to go that route.

I'm really falling in love with the notion of the Elven Curved Blade + the PFS agile enhancement + a doubled crit threat range + Scout sneak attack w/ Rake causing shaken (plus bleed critical feat and additional bleed talent or Offensive Defense). The build is relatively viable from early on, but it'll take a while to FULLY realize itself in terms of sheer damage potential ... but there's a lot more to this character than DPR. It will also function quite well in non-combat scenarios. The only real downside is the loss of trapfinding, which can't be replaced until level 6 with a dip into Pathfinder Delver (though I can at least take the Trap Spotting talent, I suppose).

Adopted trait, Elf or Half-Elf, take the associated +2 initiative race trait. Second trait would be Poverty-Stricken. I picture an outcast Elf or a downtrodden Half-Elf wanderer finding a young Human boy in the wreckage of a bandit raid, taking him in (begrudgingly, of course!), eventually training him in the use of the blade (his only possession of value). They roam the roads together, living off the land, the boy becomes a sneak thief out of necessity ... explains a lot. I can even explain Tactician, assuming the adopted "parent" is an exiled Elven military figure, maybe a ex-general forced to wander due to some heinous crime ... but now I'm writing a back story for my characters father figure. ;) All very classic - albiet a tad stereotypical - high fantasy stuff.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Lore Warden is pretty nice, but I think I'm leaning toward the Tactician archetype for the one or two level dip, assuming I decide to go that route.

I'm really falling in love with the notion of the Elven Curved Blade + the PFS agile enhancement + a doubled crit threat range + Scout sneak attack w/ Rake causing shaken (plus bleed critical feat and additional bleed talent or Offensive Defense). The build is relatively viable from early on, but it'll take a while to FULLY realize itself in terms of sheer damage potential ... but there's a lot more to this character than DPR. It will also function quite well in non-combat scenarios. The only real downside is the loss of trapfinding, which can't be replaced until level 6 with a dip into Pathfinder Delver (though I can at least take the Trap Spotting talent, I suppose).

Adopted trait, Elf or Half-Elf, take the associated +2 initiative race trait. Second trait would be Poverty-Stricken. I picture an outcast Elf or a downtrodden Half-Elf wanderer finding a young Human boy in the wreckage of a bandit raid, taking him in (begrudgingly, of course!), eventually training him in the use of the blade (his only possession of value). They roam the roads together, living off the land, the boy becomes a sneak thief out of necessity ... explains a lot. I can even explain Tactician, assuming the adopted "parent" is an exiled Elven military figure, maybe a ex-general forced to wander due to some heinous crime ... but now I'm writing a back story for my characters father figure. ;) All very classic - albiet a tad stereotypical - high fantasy stuff.

Add in the half-elf alternate racial ability "ancestral arms" for level 1 proficiency with the curved blade. And keep in mind, you don't get bonus and a half from agile weapons two-handed. So, while it is nice, you can probably expect it to add no more than 4 damage per swing. Also, dont forget the beauty of a wand of lead blade, to crank out your damage from 1d10 to 2d8. That is a *huge* kick.

[Dave Leach]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Add in the half-elf alternate racial ability "ancestral arms" for level 1 proficiency with the curved blade. And keep in mind, you don't get bonus and a half from agile weapons two-handed. So, while it is nice, you can probably expect it to add no more than 4 damage per swing. Also, dont forget the beauty of a wand of lead blade, to crank out your damage from 1d10 to 2d8. That is a *huge* kick.

Dude. "Ancestral Arms"? Wow, I've been ignoring the alternate traits in the APG, I assumed they were optional rules not intended for organized play. Is it PFS legal? I've been looking for EXACTLY that, a means to get the proficiency without having to spend the feat. I ended up with the +2 init trait instead, if only as a way to justify the exotic proficiency and still end up with something useful.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Add in the half-elf alternate racial ability "ancestral arms" for level 1 proficiency with the curved blade. And keep in mind, you don't get bonus and a half from agile weapons two-handed. So, while it is nice, you can probably expect it to add no more than 4 damage per swing. Also, dont forget the beauty of a wand of lead blade, to crank out your damage from 1d10 to 2d8. That is a *huge* kick.

Dude. "Ancestral Arms"? Wow, I've been ignoring the alternate traits in the APG, I assumed they were optional rules not intended for organized play. Is it PFS legal? I've been looking for EXACTLY that, a means to get the proficiency without having to spend the feat. I ended up with the +2 init trait instead, if only as a way to justify the exotic proficiency and still end up with something useful.

You get two traits. And ancestral arms swaps out the half elf bonus feat of skill focus with a proficiency with any one weapon type. The initiative trait is handy, no doubt. But, the question is, what do you want the other one to be? You can find a trait that bumps up just about any skill into a class skill and gives you a +1(tho as a rogue, not too concerning), a +1 to any save, or a few minor but fun roleplayable traits. The alternate racial traits are found in the APG, I *highly* recommend you get that book.

[Matthew Morris]

Jiggy also pointed out dual minded, which is like a free will save bump (+2, stacks with Iron Will)

So what do you do? +3 on a skill, EWP, or +2 to will saves... ;-)

[Jiggy]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Dave Leach wrote:

Dude. "Ancestral Arms"? Wow, I've been ignoring the alternate traits in the APG, I assumed they were optional rules not intended for organized play. Is it PFS legal? I've been looking for EXACTLY that, a means to get the proficiency without having to spend the feat. I ended up with the +2 init trait instead, if only as a way to justify the exotic proficiency and still end up with something useful.

You get two traits. And ancestral arms swaps out the half elf bonus feat of skill focus with a proficiency with any one weapon type. The initiative trait is handy, no doubt. But, the question is, what do you want the other one to be? You can find a trait that bumps up just about any skill into a class skill and gives you a +1(tho as a rogue, not too concerning), a +1 to any save, or a few minor but fun roleplayable traits. The alternate racial traits are found in the APG, I *highly* recommend you get that book.

STOP!

Looks like I need to clear up a common confusion:

Believe it or not, there's a difference between "race traits" and "racial traits".

"Race traits" are a category of Traits that you can pick from when you select your 2 Traits at character creation. Things like the one that gives you +2 initiative, or there's a bunch that give you a +1 to a skill and make it a class skill, etc.

And then there are "racial traits". These are special qualities that you get just by being your race (like the human bonus feat, the half-elf Skill Focus, having low-light vision or darkvision, etc). Ancestral Arms and Dual-Minded are alternate racial traits - they replace the default Half-Elf racial trait that grants you Skill Focus as a bonus feat. They are not among the list of Traits that you pick two of. So a Dual-Minded half-elf still has two traits to pick.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Jiggy wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Dave Leach wrote:

Dude. "Ancestral Arms"? Wow, I've been ignoring the alternate traits in the APG, I assumed they were optional rules not intended for organized play. Is it PFS legal? I've been looking for EXACTLY that, a means to get the proficiency without having to spend the feat. I ended up with the +2 init trait instead, if only as a way to justify the exotic proficiency and still end up with something useful.

You get two traits. And ancestral arms swaps out the half elf bonus feat of skill focus with a proficiency with any one weapon type. The initiative trait is handy, no doubt. But, the question is, what do you want the other one to be? You can find a trait that bumps up just about any skill into a class skill and gives you a +1(tho as a rogue, not too concerning), a +1 to any save, or a few minor but fun roleplayable traits. The alternate racial traits are found in the APG, I *highly* recommend you get that book.

STOP!

Looks like I need to clear up a common confusion:

Believe it or not, there's a difference between "race traits" and "racial traits".

"Race traits" are a category of Traits that you can pick from when you select your 2 Traits at character creation. Things like the one that gives you +2 initiative, or there's a bunch that give you a +1 to a skill and make it a class skill, etc.

And then there are "racial traits". These are special qualities that you get just by being your race (like the human bonus feat, the half-elf Skill Focus, having low-light vision or darkvision, etc). Ancestral Arms and Dual-Minded are alternate racial traits - they replace the default Half-Elf racial trait that grants you Skill Focus as a bonus feat. They are not among the list of Traits that you pick two of. So a Dual-Minded half-elf still has two traits to pick.

I know, I always have a hard time remembering to spell out the exact difference. Really surprised Paizo didn't have the foresight to not name two things that are so closely related effectively the same thing. And I swear the actual name of the swap out is "alternate racial traits", tho I could be wrong.

[Dave Leach]

Dang. Well, I suppose going with a Half-Elf wouldn't be the worst thing. I tend to play Human, but when I do stray it's almost always to Half-Elf. I'd break even with feats as I'll otherwise end up spending my bonus Human feat on the exotic proficiency. Of course, I'd lose out on the +1 skill rank per level ... I'd miss that, but I suppose multitalented will make up for it somewhat should I opt for a Ranger/Rogue.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Dave Leach wrote:

Dang. Well, I suppose going with a Half-Elf wouldn't be the worst thing. I tend to play Human, but when I do stray it's almost always to Half-Elf. I'd break even with feats as I'll otherwise end up spending my bonus Human feat on the exotic proficiency. Of course, I'd lose out on the +1 skill rank per level ... I'd miss that, but I suppose multitalented will make up for it somewhat should I opt for a Ranger/Rogue.

Keep in mind, that bonus feat from human can't got to EWP, it requires BAB+1, something a rogue doesn't get at lvl 1. You would wait till lvl 3 to get it if you don't dip. Plus....you're a freaking rogue, I don't think you'll be hurting for skill ranks :D

[Mike Schneider]

Fair warning: every MAD-statted, light armored, medium-sized TWF ranger/rogue (trying to keep strength up to avoid Weapon Finesse + Agile weaponry or Dervish Dance) I've ever seen has croaked at least once by Tier 7 -- so hoard those prestige points, because you're gonna need 'em. (Flip side are the CON:10 elves with up-wazoo AC who erroneously assume a GM will never confirm a nat-20 and bury them down to -25 from full-up.)

Note that rogues have horrible fort and will saves (exacerbated by multiclassing ranger and fighter, especially two levels of each as a human or other race without a saving-throw racial buff), so doing something about that is advisable.