Mounted + hurling charge + spirited charge + throwing lance

[doctor_wu]

If you are mounted and making a charge and you have the spirited charge feat and have a throwing lance can you throw the lance for tripple damage?Note it odes not say a lance in melee.

Also if you had greater beast totem could you not pounce at the end of this charge as it says an attack?

[Starocious]

I was going to post a question asking this exact thing, so I might as well perform some incredible necromancy.

Does this actually work by RAW?

Relevant links:
Hurling Charge Rage Power
Spirited Charge
Throwing

[Diego Rossi]

Assuming that you have a lance enchanted with the Throwing ability, as it isn't a throw weapon:

Quote:

Spirited Charge (Combat)

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 134
Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.

Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.

Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

CRB wrote:

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

If you throw the lance you aren't using it as a melee weapon, you are using it as a throwing weapon.

CRB wrote:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

A bit of a stretch to say that the thrown weapon is used from the back of a charging weapon when the damage is resolved, so it is questionable if you do the double damage. RAI the reply is clearly that you don't get the benefit. RAW, as I said, it is a bit of a stretch. Your GM can allow it.

Unrelated, but Tarsan did it in one of the of E. R. Burroghs books.

[*Thelith]

Well....
In your own link it says melee and ranged weapons.
That's two categories.
Melee and ranged.
Some melee weapons can be thrown.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a melee weapon.

I'd say throwing the lance with spirited charge gets you x3. You're charging and using a lance.
It specifically calls out lance as *3 damage separately from 'melee weapons'.

You're not doubling the charge damage from 'lance rules' and 'spirited charge's rules. Spirited charge takes into account that lances already do double and give you 3* damage, so you're getting 3* damage from that without worrying about lance saying 'from the back of a horse'.

[Ryze Kuja]

I'd say with a strictly RAW interpretation of these rules, that it is allowable.

Hurling Charge is not meant to be used while mounted, but RAW it doesn't discriminate against it. Spirited Charge applies to Melee Weapons only, but doesn't discriminate against melee weapons with the Throwing enchant. And a Lance specifically states "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount."

So RAW, I'd say it's fine. But this gets so far away from RAI that I'm inclined to say no. I think there would need to be a specific FAQ allowing it for me to say yes. Expect table variance, my 2 cp.

[avr]

To me 'Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).' isn't saying that thrown lances work with spirited charge, it's saying that they're a subcategory of melee weapons which get extra damage in this instance. It's poorly phrased but that isn't really unusual.

[Chaine "The Butcher" Alazario]

Nope, as the thrown lance is no longer a melee weapon (the triple damage with a lance is a rider on the sentence's melee weapon qualifier).

Would still be cool to see this character throw a thrown lance for regular damage during a charge, draw another lance, and then impale the enemy with the x3 melee lance damage multiplier! ;)

[Derklord]

Didn't we just have this discussion ?

Passive and/or permanent things use what the weapon is listed as, whereas active things and stuff that triggers upon using the weapon in combat check for how it is actually used. Spiried Charge says "melee weapon", and as it triggers upon using the weapon in combat, doesn't activate when you use the lance as a thrown (i.e. ranged) weapon. The lance text only asks for being used in a mounted charge, and thus RAW don't care about melee or ranged. It's fairly obviously not intended, though, so the GM should be asked.

*Thelith wrote:

It specifically calls out lance as *3 damage separately from 'melee weapons'.

No, it makes a clarification for lances. It the text in the parentheses wasn't there, the general rules on multiplication stacking would still make the feat behave exactly the same for lances - that makes the text in parantheses explanatory text and not rules text.

[*Thelith]

It says melee weapon. You're using a melee weapon.
It works.
It doesn't say when making a melee attack.

[Diego Rossi]

*Thelith wrote:

It says melee weapon. You're using a melee weapon.

It works.
It doesn't say when making a melee attack.

So when you throw using a melee weapon that can be thrown you don't benefit from any feat or ability that affects a thrown weapon, as it says "melee"?

[Derklord]

*Thelith wrote:

It says melee weapon. You're using a melee weapon.

It works.
It doesn't say when making a melee attack.

I presume you didn't read the post I linked, right? Because that wouldn'te shown you how indefensible your position is, as not only staple ranged combat feats like Rapid Shot wouldn't work with thrown melee weapons, but even general rules use "ranged weapon" to refer to all ranged attacks.

Let's look at the attack roll rules:
"Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is the following: Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty" CRB pg. 179
So clearly, if a weapon is considered a melee wepaon at the time of attack, it uses strength. Now let's look at the ability score description:
"You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:
• Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and many ranged spell attacks like scorching ray or searing light." CRB pg. 16, emphasis mine.
What is the throwing axe listed as?
"Light Melee Weapons
Axe, throwing" CRB pg. 142

By your premise, the weapon type is used independent of whether the attack is melee or ranged. The throwing axe is a melee weapon, so by your premise, the attack roll must be modified by strength and not dexterity at all time. The dexterity description explicitly says otherwise. Therefore, your premise must be untrue, and therefore your entire argument is unsound.

[Starocious]

Derklord

But yes the question actually depends on if the "x3 damage with lance" is standalone or subject to the melee limitation.

If thrown it is a ranged weapon, most of us are well aware of that and in my opinion; RAW it works, but I don't know if it was intended to.

I'd certainly allow x2 damage for a throwing property lance without spirited charge, because "thrown from the back of a charging mount" is it being "used from the back of a charging mount". And based on that it may as well benefit from spirited charge too.

[Derklord]

Putting the part in parentheses yet keeping it in the same sentence clearly makes it a dependent on the previous statement. That's not a rule issue, it's a language issue; refining or explaining something is what parentheses are there for: "Parentheses (...) contain adjunctive material that serves to clarify (in the manner of a gloss)".

If the text in parentheses wasn't there, most players would immediately ask "how does that work with a lance?" - after all, that's the most common weapon for mounted charge. The interaction is covered by the rules elsewhere, but rather hard to find (it's the "multiplying" entry in the Common Terms section in chapter 1), so the feat really needed text explaining it.
Now remember that when the feat was written, Hurling Charge didn't yet exist, which means it wasn't possible to throw a lance during a charge. So at the time of writing, the text in parentheses changed absolutely nothing.
So the feat needed explanatory text, and contains text that at the time of writing couldn't alter anything. What makes you think the text is anything but explanatory text?

[Starocious]

No you're right, I was overlooking the context the parentheses being parentheses. I amend my opinion to a thrown lance being limited to x2, because spirited charge wont apply to it. Thanks Derklord.