No one has the right to insult another player. You can discuss it respectfully, in which words like 'waste of space' have no place.Respect is something that is earned and it isn't someone's right.
And when one player's actions cause me to not have fun then he has given me the right to try to remedy the situation, if that way is telling the truth so be it.
Oh and it's even worse when that player has no idea about optimization but think that he does and start calling other people's characters OP, game breaking and exploiting every little loophole.
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I think we're misunderstanding the concept of "respecting someone" and "being discourteous" to someone.
You can not respect someone and still be courteous.
You can also not respect someone and be a total douche at the same time.
Being discourteous in general generates strife and conflict.
If a person plays a character that is not up to one's standards, and one calls that character a "waste of space", that person is being discourteous.
Slinging rude and discourteous verbage around and then saying "hey sorry I'm blunt and being honest" is the same to me as a person who says "you can't kill my character, I was just roleplaying him and he is stupid so I can do stupid things".
There are ways to get one's point across without coming across as assaulting, offensive, or rude.
If you people are playing at a table where disrespect, verbal abuse, and deliberate sabotage are normal behavior... then Kolokotroni may be right, I have no hope of understanding where you are coming from.
I agree with TOZ on this. If you can't respect others and play nice then you are in the wrong place.
My point is this: NO amount of optimization is going to fix a broken social dynamic.
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If you people are playing at a table where disrespect, verbal abuse, and deliberate sabotage are normal behavior... then Kolokotroni may be right, I have no hope of understanding where you are coming from.
I agree with TOZ on this. If you can't respect others and play nice then you are in the wrong place.
My point is this: NO amount of optimization is going to fix a broken social dynamic.
What if someone is playing a diplomancer? :P
Is there a disconnect here coming from people who play primarily home games with their friends, and people who play at cons or society games out in the wild?
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I seriously wonder where you guys pick up your players.
When I play, I usually do so with friends, and in a group like this you should be able to resolve such issues without throwing people out.
I'm active duty military. Groups come and go. Thankfully, I have only had one bad apple to deal with.
But once is enough.
Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing together
Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing together
I guess it depends on the group. The people that I am referring to who are rude and offensive were people the other party members didn't appreciate being around due to their anti-social behavior.
Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing togetherI guess it depends on the group. The people that I am referring to who are rude and offensive were people the other party members didn't appreciate being around due to their anti-social behavior.
I wouldn't call it anti-social behavior when all the group is like that, well when most people in my country are like that (on one level or other).
I wouldn't call it anti-social behavior when all the group is like that, well when most people in my country are like that (on one level or other).Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing togetherI guess it depends on the group. The people that I am referring to who are rude and offensive were people the other party members didn't appreciate being around due to their anti-social behavior.
Where are you from? Jerkistan?:-)
Where are you from? Jerkistan?:-)I wouldn't call it anti-social behavior when all the group is like that, well when most people in my country are like that (on one level or other).Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing togetherI guess it depends on the group. The people that I am referring to who are rude and offensive were people the other party members didn't appreciate being around due to their anti-social behavior.
No Greece, and from what i have seen and heard most mediterenean people are this easily heated up, what can i say? our blood boils...
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Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing together
Of course they can.
I choose not to.
Well anti-social behavior is typically defined as behavior that disregards others, lacks consideration for others, or hostile behavior towards society in general.
Calling someone a waste of space would definitely fall in that category lol.
Well anti-social behavior is typically defined as behavior that disregards others, lacks consideration for others, or hostile behavior towards society in general.
Calling someone a waste of space would definitely fall in that category lol.
It depends on what culture you are in.
And here I was considering a Mediterranean cruise. I think the Alaskan cruise is sounding much better now. Or maybe the Asian one... but the Asian cruise is too pricey.
Most of my play time with diverse groups came while I was in college. The bad players were easy to remove because I had a waiting list of guys eager to join my game. Afterwards I just play with friends. And friends don't disrespect each other.
Ok i think i am starting to understand here.
Am i wrong or some you think that a group of friend can't sit around a table to play a game, have a heated arguement about something, shout at each other with insults and swearing and name calling etc.? and resolve the argument this way and probably keep playing togetherOf course they can.
I choose not to.
No Greece, and from what i have seen and heard most mediterenean people are this easily heated up, what can i say? our blood boils...
This is true, but we are often creative with our anger. One of my proudest moments was to see video of protesters after having set it ablaze, stand around the christmas tree in Athens and sing Christmas Carols.
First of all what is tourete's syndrome?
Second Kolokotroni is right, very creative and very nice people in general (that includes not staying angry for a long time).
@Aranna
I suggest you to re-think the Mediterranean cruise, sure people might seem short-tempered but that is because we are very lively, emotional and extrovert* people, also we know how to have fun and have GREAT food.
*i have never seen or used that word before i got it out of a dictionary, so sorry if it doesn't make sense
EDIT: I found out what tourrete's syndrome is, in mild cases it doesn't seem like a problem to a group.
As an italo-descendant I can vouch for the mediterranean too. We have short tempers but we get calm even quicker. Call each other some bad words, swear like a drunken sailor and ten minutes later everybody is friends again. Just avoid insulting someones mother, that will get you a fistfight.
Been having a s%$&ty couple of days and this post put a much needed smile on my face. Thanks.
No problem, I'm glad it helped you out! It was fun to come up with.
...I totally read that as "been having a salty couple of days"...
Been having a s%$&ty couple of days and this post put a much needed smile on my face. Thanks.
No problem, I'm glad it helped you out! It was fun to come up with.
...I totally read that as "been having a salty couple of days"...
Mmmmm... Salt...
For some reason if someone called someone a power gamer it would be funny if you told them how you would have made it stronger but did not.
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New players are asking for advice on how to learn riding a bike and 80% of the replies are instructions about doing backflips through flaming hoops over the grand canyon while playing accordeon.
From a game-mechanics standpoint, the keytar is vastly superior to the accordion. Your build is sub-optimal...
As an italo-descendant I can vouch for the mediterranean too. We have short tempers but we get calm even quicker. Call each other some bad words, swear like a drunken sailor and ten minutes later everybody is friends again. Just avoid insulting someones mother, that will get you a fistfight.
Listen to the cat.
Role player: I will take perform: keyboard instrument, because my bad grew up in the church.
Optimizer: I will take perform sing, so i don't need to hold an instrument.
Munchkin: I will take perform percussion instrument, so i can swing a greatclub at the orc for damage and have the sweet coconut like sound begin my performance.
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Munchkin: I will take perform percussion instrument, so i can swing a greatclub at the orc for damage and have the sweet coconut like sound begin my performance.
This might be munchkinism, but it will also make the most hilarious bard. I approve.
You say the anger is gone quickly... But I can and often do put just a little too much snarkiness into my verbal speech just like I post online. I would hate to get attacked by an enraged Greek just because I said something irreverent. And with the huge protests in the news I can imagine tempers are extra short.
Ah well, the football fan in my life has as much say as I do about where we go... So if you see a pale loud mouth giving extra sass to the port authorities in Greece this February, then put in a good word for me.
You say the anger is gone quickly... But I can and often do put just a little too much snarkiness into my verbal speech just like I post online. I would hate to get attacked by an enraged Greek just because I said something irreverent. And with the huge protests in the news I can imagine tempers are extra short.
Ah well, the football fan in my life has as much say as I do about where we go... So if you see a pale loud mouth giving extra sass to the port authorities in Greece this February, then put in a good word for me.
Man you should see Greek Football (soccer) fans. I gotta wonder how difficult it must be to take a free kick or penalty kick with the fans throwing cherry bombs at you...ah those were the days. When my 70 year old uncle was cursing at the top of his lungs trying to climb the barb wire topped fense to get at the ref, I knew I was home.
And dont worry, greeks are often rather 'nice' to tourists, so long as they think you have money ;).
You say the anger is gone quickly... But I can and often do put just a little too much snarkiness into my verbal speech just like I post online. I would hate to get attacked by an enraged Greek just because I said something irreverent. And with the huge protests in the news I can imagine tempers are extra short.
Ah well, the football fan in my life has as much say as I do about where we go... So if you see a pale loud mouth giving extra sass to the port authorities in Greece this February, then put in a good word for me.
Man you should see Greek Football (soccer) fans. I gotta wonder how difficult it must be to take a free kick or penalty kick with the fans throwing cherry bombs at you...ah those were the days. When my 70 year old uncle was cursing at the top of his lungs trying to climb the barb wire topped fense to get at the ref, I knew I was home.
And dont worry, greeks are often rather 'nice' to tourists, so long as they think you have money ;).
What Kolokotroni said, also as long as you stay clear of insulting someone's country, religion and famility you should be ok.
I agree there's nothing wrong with optimizing. but me and my players prefer non optimized.
I do have one thing to ask about min/maxers. How come it's always that group that says optimization doesn't ruin anything, doesn't take away from the game, or everyone else is wrong. But if you throw an optimized monster at them and destroy them there the first to cry? lol
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I agree there's nothing wrong with optimizing. but me and my players prefer non optimized.
I do have one thing to ask about min/maxers. How come it's always that group that says optimization doesn't ruin anything, doesn't take away from the game, or everyone else is wrong. But if you throw an optimized monster at them and destroy them there the first to cry? lol
Maybe because they invested a LOT of time and care in their character only to see their efforts reduced to nothing because of a DM's spite ?
Me, I would like to ask "roleplayers" (that is those who feel that optimizing is bad wrong) why they are always complaining that optimizers are ruining the fun of the game, while seeing only the fun they have at roleplaying their character even when doing so ruins the fun for the rest of the party ?
The fun is supposed to be had by everyone, GM and players. Not just by one person.
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My characters are effective if they are allowed to be. This means: if real game situations come up and test their effectiveness. This means: actual gaming sessions, not optimizing/theorycrafting debates. No amout of optimizing is going to save you from a Nat 1 in a critical situation. To me, it's not even worth to optimize.
The point is: I don't strive for "effectiveness", whatever the hell that means in terms of actual gaming situations (I don't care what that means either). I strive for having a fun game with my pals. And when some of my pals start to say things like "stop being ineffective" (which usually means: why aren't you playing your character exactly the way I want it, usually as the result of a misguided perception of party composition), it's not fun to me anymore.
You should realize that if he is saying this kind of things it very likely means that he is not having fun anymore because of YOUR behaviour.
Your fun is not the be-all and end-all of your friends' game session. The goal is to have the most fun all together, as a party. Not as a collection of individuals who only see their interest and refuse to compromise.
Ignoring the consequences of your actions on your fellow players and GM's fun under the pretense of "playing my character" and "I am not an optimizer" is definitely not going to help.
If a player comes up to me and says "You are supposed to be the Striker while I Tank, why aren't you taking this feat to improve DPR", I assert my rights to throw his dice out of the window. Most optimizers I've met unfortunately talk like that.
Responding by physical aggression to a rather soft-voiced comment does not really strike me as the best way to find a solution acceptable by all parties involved.
As you pointed out before, meatrace, there are in-betweens. There are shades of gray. But to be honest, I couldn't be bothered by these shades: if someone approaches me and asks me why I'm not playing this build to improve the overral party effectiveness, I'm assuming he wants me do play a bunch of numbers and not a character.
Once again, you can roleplay an interesting character AND he can be efficient at what you want him to do. Which however does not mean that you have to meekly follow another player's orders.
The worse thing in my experience is to create a very interesting character and realize that not only is he useless in most situations (ie, combat and searching for clues) but also that he cannot be good at what should be his forte (social skills) because the world/rules system does not support it.
It is from this that arose my interest in optimizing. I want my characters to be efficient at what they are supposed to do, whether it is damage-dealing or seducing, and be able to contribute in most game situations.
If I want advice on how my character is doing MECHANICALLY, I'd rather ask the GM who is the final arbiter of the system used after all (and who usually suggests you to take the NOT optimized option, by the way).
Saying no to optimized characters is the easy way out for GMs (especially those who do not have much time available) rather than rebuild all the encounters in the module or AP they bought.
Mechanical advice should be sought among those who both know the rules very well and have a gift for optimization. Most optimizers belong to this category, but not all GMs do. In fact some (many ?) GMs do not know the rules as well as some players.
Which is OK as long as the GM does not take the player correcting him as a personal insult.
I agree there's nothing wrong with optimizing. but me and my players prefer non optimized.
I do have one thing to ask about min/maxers. How come it's always that group that says optimization doesn't ruin anything, doesn't take away from the game, or everyone else is wrong. But if you throw an optimized monster at them and destroy them there the first to cry? lol
Do they actually do that? Optimizers in my group when they dm always optimize monsters because they want to keep up the pressure on optimized characters. I optimize my characters and dont complain when enemies and monsters are likewise treated. And I am pretty sure that optimizers and roleplayers (if we are still going to pretend they are separate groups of people) lament the loss of a character similarly. The optimizer spent time and effort on the creation of the character. The roleplayer spent time and effort on the relationships, personality and motivations of the character. Both have a sense of loss when a character is killed and likely are unhappy about it.
Some players hate losing or dying. I have played in groups like that, where the players expected to win every encounter and if they lost they got angry that the DM stacked the encounter against them.
I've DM'd for groups that were uber optimized and I had to really tweak encounters to challenge them, and a couple of the players would get irritated at this and make off-color comments about it because they felt they were being cheated when monsters were upgraded to match their power level.
It really boils down to your party and expectations. I think it's safe to say that everyone reading this board has expectations in their games, has things that they don't really like but would accept, and have things that they won't accept in a game, and it is when they have to be in an environment where they must do something that they normally wouldn't accept that they get bad experiences from.
Every table is different. At my table I only allow the core book now and everything else must be approved to keep abusive combos out. Strong characters are encouraged. Broken characters are not. There is a difference between the two paradigms.
There are many ways to accomplish this.
Even though I dislike the overly arrogant breed of optimizer. I have to say the optimizers I have played with do actually prefer optimized monsters. You know it's not hard to just accept the others play styles. An optimizer would NOT be happy if the role players at the table ridiculed him for not portraying an accurate version of his character. So why on earth would they think it's ok to ridicule the build of a role player? Why is it so hard for some people to just sit down and have fun together?! If you're an optimizer then be happy building your combat monster and leave other people to build their own characters. My advice is to only give advice on their build when they actually ask for that advice. If the only way you can have fun is to ruin someone else's fun
then you probably won't be happy at any table. Learn to live in harmony with the people you have at hand and you will be happy at any table.
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It also really comes down to the people at the table with you and how everyone approaches the game.
I've been at tables where the 'role playing' is very much a third person experience -- the player states what his character is going to do much like it would be done in a novel.
I've also been at tables where the 'role playing' is very much a lot of first person acting, with the understanding being that the characters are talking to each other not the players.
At such tables I have played wizards that would routinely scold the martial characters, and tell them the only reason they were around was so the wizard wouldn't have to bore himself with combat -- occasionally in terms that I wouldn't use on the person playing the other character, and everyone was all smiles and hugs at the end of the night, because it wasn't us talking to each other (and if it had been there would have been broken bones).
The key to it all is communication about expectations. We've purposefully toned our characters down before because we wanted to give the GM an easier time (he didn't even ask us too).
Now we do have several optimizers at our table -- and if asked we'll point out good options for someone's character, but that's what it is, advice on options... not imperial commands of some sort.
Ah. This debate has raged forever.
* Min/Maxing, Powergaming, Twinking, Munchkining... these all basically revolve around a player making their character really really really good at one thing (usually combat). It is of itself not bad nor does it make someone "not a roleplayer".
You can, and in fact many do, be an excellent roleplayer, and still twink your character to the nth degree.
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To the OP, you can roleplay just as well if you are a power gamer or a person who just makes normal characters with weaknesses
I'm an Optimizer myself and a role players. I think "Optimizing revolve around a player making their character really really really good at one thing" is a problematic statement.
'Optimizers' on these messageboards seldom admit that what it all boils down to is maximizing DPR. I however don't agree with them or you. This is one of my favorite quotes:Optimization does not equal maximized DPR. Optimization is the act of building to meet a goal, and using the correct tools to accomplish this. The statement should generally hold true if you aren't trying to pidgeonhole players into thinking in only one form.
When people say there is no conflict between Optimization and role playing I agree. However a lot of the Optimizers on the Messageboards are not Optimizers, they just what max DPR, but optimization and maxing out DPR are not necessarily the same. I am however sad that they are treated the same most of the time on these Messageboards. Seriously who many thread have you see titled "help me flesh out my character" or "role playing advice needed"?
If I wanted to play a fighter- Let's say a swashbuckler kind of a character with some Errol Flynn flavor, people would give me the advice to dump char even though Errol Flynn was a charismatic.If I said: "Hey I want to play a swashbuckler that can fight and he should be good at acrobatics, diplomacy and bluff and have some pirate flavor, someone like Captain Jack Sparrow or Zorro." I would then go on fleshing out what kind of character he is.
What kind of response would I get? My bet is most answers would be focused on the DPR OR the flavor of the different classes. Some would suggest bard or rogue, or a fighter/bard or even fighter/sorcerer, but I seriously don't think many would suggest a fighter with charisma 12, some levels of duelist and traits that gives you diplomacy as a class skill.
I do agree with BigNorseWolf you can Role play and Optimize, but on these Messageboards a lot of the So called Optimizers don't care for characters, they only care for DPR.