Why don't game designers bother fixing spells that don't really work as written? I've provided a few examples below, feel free to add/discuss your own.
Charm Person: There's nothing stating that victims forget that they were charmed, so they don't.
Illusion of Calm (UC): Even though this spell is designed to conceal spellcasting, casting it in a room full of witnesses, followed by other spells, will only result in a room full of witness who watched/heard you cast your spells. But hey! At least it didn't provoke! Casting IoC itself does not prevent AoOs, so you are always better off casting your original spell and not wasting a turn. :/
Mislead: Casting this spell in front of anyone able to identify it defeats the point.
Other Illusions: As mislead.
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Why don't game designers bother fixing spells that don't really work as written? I've provided a few examples below, feel free to add/discuss your own.
Charm Person: There's nothing stating that victims forget that they were charmed, so they don't.
Illusion of Calm (UC): Even though this spell is designed to conceal spellcasting, casting it in a room full of witnesses, followed by other spells, will only result in a room full of witness who watched/heard you cast your spells. But hey! At least it didn't provoke! Casting IoC itself does not prevent AoOs, so you are always better off casting your original spell and not wasting a turn. :/
Mislead: Casting this spell in front of anyone able to identify it defeats the point.
Other Illusions: As mislead.
Okay, but how would you "fix" these spells?
Well, I would...
Spells of the illusion school would not be identifiable as spells during casting (and perhaps have no components at all).
Illusion of Calm would conceal all forms of spellcasting procedure, so witnesses see you standing still (quietly), not casting spells (waving hands about, chanting, or pulling out/manipulating spell components).
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Who DOESN'T have spellcraft these days?
Why don't game designers bother fixing spells that don't really work as written? I've provided a few examples below, feel free to add/discuss your own.
Charm Person: There's nothing stating that victims forget that they were charmed, so they don't.
They remember changing their opinion about you to friendly and later changing it back to worse... Or not.
Illusion of Calm (UC): Even though this spell is designed to conceal spellcasting, casting it in a room full of witnesses, followed by other spells, will only result in a room full of witness who watched/heard you cast your spells. But hey! At least it didn't provoke! Casting IoC itself does not prevent AoOs, so you are always better off casting your original spell and not wasting a turn. :/
It's my understanding that this spell is meant to specifically conceal the tension and concentration of the caster to prevent exposing oneself and leaving opening in one's defense. It is decent spell for a first level spell if you have time to prepare - I agree that casting it once combat started might be often too late, however.
Mislead: Casting this spell in front of anyone able to identify it defeats the point.
Uh, wait, you weren't using disguise self prior to using this?
Other Illusions: As mislead.
Bluff, misdirection (as general term not spell of the same name), casting when no one is looking upon you. Playing illusionist requires actual thinking and planning.
Bluff, misdirection (as general term not spell of the same name), casting when no one is looking upon you. Playing illusionist requires actual thinking and planning.
RAW, there is no way to bluff or misdirect a spell. Misdirection in particular is impossible as you must "speak in a strong voice" and even people without Spellcraft can generally tell when someone is casting a spell (even if they don't know what is being cast). Heck, per RAW you still provoke even if their were no components! Not even Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell can save you! God forbid investing in three feats and upping a spell level by two slots each time you cast it conceal your intentions!
Playing other wizard types don't require so much thinking and planning. Why are enchanters and illusionists having to go through the extra lengths?
Also, the whole point of mislead is to be able to cast it in front of people and then reposition/escape.
As written, everyone will know you cast a spell (and in all likelihood will know WHICH spell).
If truely bothers you that much, even though illusionists and enchanters have been played for decades with much success, just play a psion.
Master Arminas
Think RD means with charm person they know they got charmed meaning
Me and a bandit are fighting i decide i can charm him and get away i cast my spell.
Said bandit makes a spellcraft and knows the spell im casting but still fails his save.
Bandit is now friendly but knows we were fighting 6 seconds ago and knows why he thinks im his friend.
i can see an jerk DM saying that he knows all this and attacks you friendship not withstanding.
Think RD means with charm person they know they got charmed meaning
Me and a bandit are fighting i decide i can charm him and get away i cast my spell.
Said bandit makes a spellcraft and knows the spell im casting but still fails his save.
Bandit is now friendly but knows we were fighting 6 seconds ago and knows why he thinks im his friend.
i can see an jerk DM saying that he knows all this and attacks you friendship not withstanding.
Not the example I would have used, but pretty much, yeah.
This isn't a problem with the spell, its a problem with the DM.
How so?
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This isn't a problem with the spell, its a problem with the DM.Not the example I would have used, but pretty much, yeah.Think RD means with charm person they know they got charmed meaning
Me and a bandit are fighting i decide i can charm him and get away i cast my spell.
Said bandit makes a spellcraft and knows the spell im casting but still fails his save.
Bandit is now friendly but knows we were fighting 6 seconds ago and knows why he thinks im his friend.
i can see an jerk DM saying that he knows all this and attacks you friendship not withstanding.
If the rules are written in a manner where it is easy for the DM to do as such, then it's not only a problem with the DM.
RD, what you want is the metamagic feat Deceptive Spell from 3.5's Cityscape. For a one level increase, "A deceptive spell appears to come from any direction you choose..." The wording of the feat specifically says that the intent is to hide the source of the spell from anyone not actively observing the caster. I would take that to mean 'anyone who didn't ready an action to observe your spellcasting.'
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Do you cast all your spells in front of people with spellcraft?You do not need spellcraft to notice someone casting a spell is doing something unusual.
Even in our magic devoid world most persons would notice someone a few yards away casting a spell would do some unusual stuff. If afterwards someone drops dead the unusual stuff would likely be reported to the police and the police would try to determine whether that hand waving and speaking strange words in a clear voice has something to do with the death.
In a world were every 50 person village has a spell caster normal persons without any training would recognize spell casting or at least the pretension of spell casting is going on.
Spellcraft is only for knowing which spell is cast.
Some dude waves his arms and a wall of fire erupts. You get burned, ouch. He waves his arms again and another wall of fire springs up... do you approach it?
A wall of stone appears, do you charge through it?
Knowing someone is casting a spell is not very informative.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Who DOESN'T have spellcraft these days?
About 95 % of this and this and about 65% of these guys.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Illusion of Calm (UC): Even though this spell is designed to conceal spellcasting, casting it in a room full of witnesses, followed by other spells, will only result in a room full of witness who watched/heard you cast your spells. But hey! At least it didn't provoke! Casting IoC itself does not prevent AoOs, so you are always better off casting your original spell and not wasting a turn. :/
Isn't not provoking the whole point of the spell? I'm not sure what you think it's supposed to do, be some sort of wonder spell that makes it seem like you aren't casting? As far as I can tell not provoking is the whole reason for the spell. And I never noticed before that it's useful for thrown weapons and by extension, bombs... hmmm, that's a nice perk.
It's 1m per level so when you are low level it's a kick in the doors sort of spell. When you are higher level you use an extend rod and keep it going for 20 minutes+ so it's useful over multiple encounters. Like many/ most minor buffs, it's best cast before you are in combat and of questionable benefit if you cast it in combat.
What is odd is the fact that it doesn't mention whether it's possible to use spellcraft against someone under the effects of this spell.
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Some dude waves his arms and a wall of fire erupts. You get burned, ouch. He waves his arms again and another wall of fire springs up... do you approach it?
A wall of stone appears, do you charge through it?
Knowing someone is casting a spell is not very informative.
I disagree. Knowing someone is casting a spell is very informative. You know where to target the arrows. And in the situation described in the original post, knowing that the old man in a robe started to chant in a strange language and wave his hand just before your best friend started to behave very oddly is useful information.
Just imagine if you were a stormtrooper and observed Obi-wan Kenobi say, "These are not the droids you are looking for," but were far enough away not to be affected. What would you do?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"Knowing someone is casting a spell is very informative. You know where to target the arrows."
Mislead, the spell we're talking about. The viewers know exactly what? The wizard waved his arms and cast some spell, then moved over to that side of the room. Ok, I know where to shoot. At the illusory double. Surprise, the spell works JUST AS ADVERTISED!
Without some sort of metagame or Spellcraft check, a creature has no way of knowing the illusion is a fakey. That is the whole point of the spell.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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True, but part of the problem opening post problem was about people just noticing spells are cast. That is hard to avoid except being invisible.
Knowing someone is casting a spell is not very informative.
Illusion of calm is all about avoiding attacks of opportunity, that is the purpose of the spell. The bit about appearing like you aren't casting is in my opinion a bit of a red herring. In spite of the illusion of not casting there is no indication that it imposes any sort of penalty on Spellcraft checks to identify your spells (but then neither does invisibility as far as I can recall at 4am).
Charm person has all sorts of weirdness.
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Meh, still not as bad as some spells in other systems. Take Exalted's Impenetrable Frost Barrier. When you read the text you realize that it is not Impenetrable, does not involve frost, and is not actually a barrier.
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I don't see how Charm Person would not work...
"The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming."
Enemy: "I wanted to kill this guy, and then he cast some sort of spell, and now I don't want to hurt him... He must have charmed me! But that's okay, I understand why he would do that, he's a good guy and a good friend of mine. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same thing" etc
The spell has a specific description of what it does, and doesn't say anything about "this spell doesn't work if somebody sees you cast it". If they fail their save, they perceieve everything you do in the best possible way, and they (or the DM) can do whatever you like to justify it.
Obviously it is ineffective if you or your buddies are trying to attack the person, but that is accounted for in the spell already.
One of the many reasons i loved 3.5 complete scoundrel skill tricks and still use them in pathfinder. Concealed Casting would be very useful in the OPs concern for spells like mislead.
To be fair I event read the whole thread, but there is a feat for the Bard to do this. It's called Spellsong, basically you conceal your casting in your BP.
Not a fix, but there is precedent for a feat to make a change
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Best quote from a charmed victim:
"So we're saying he did a spell just to make us think he was cool? That is so cool!"
Xander, Superstar, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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Why don't game designers bother fixing spells that don't really work as written?
Stay classy, San Diego.
ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
Which is why the real pit/wall/monster is right behind the illusionary one!ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
That still doesn't help a lick if they witness the spell being cast.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I don't see a problem with charm person (or any charm spells really). AS has been mentioned, so they remember you cast charm, but you're still their best friend, so that's okay.
I have had the same issues with mislead in particular and many illusion spells in general, regarding spellcraft checks. I think the best solution is that using the spellcraft skill is considered "interacting" with the illusion, and therefore triggers a Will save. If the will save is failed, then even if the spellcraft check is successful, the person making the spellcraft check thinks it's a different spell. The GM should be able to provide a suitable "illusonary" spell if the save is failed. This would be a special case of having a saving throw even if the spell itself doesn't require one.
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If you really have that much of a problem with Charm Person and the target seeing you do it, you could always roll Bluff to lie:
"Hey pal, didn't you just cast a spell on me?"
(Rolls) "Yes, I cast Calm Emotions because nobody here wants a fight breaking out over the key to the basement."
"Well, I do feel a lot calmer than before. Oh, and the key's right here. Glad to hear there won't be any fighting going on!"
Or,
Argh, these spells are dumb and wrong, so who would ever use them?
(But I prefer the first option)
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ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
This presumes everybody and every creature has spell craft. They do not. It also presumes that creatures with spell craft will succeed on a roll to determine the spell. Those are both false assumptions.
Charm Person is stupid to cast in combat. The +5 bonus to saves when threatened by you or allies is quite significant.
Mislead works fine and even if spellcraft was used you are still invisible. The person who identifies the spell still can't say anything until his turn.
If enemies who always have spellcraft is a problem then the solution is to not let them see you cast the spell. Concealment, stealth, invisibility are some of the options you can use.
This sounds like a combination of poor choices and bad DM.
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Wall of Ice. It allows a reflex save, but if you are in the center and it has a 20 ft radius does the ice wall not form. Do find yourself outside the area of the spell<--I can serious cheese with that interpretation.
Personally, the spell that's most bothered me for not working as advertised is Foresight. The flavor text describes it as this awesome spell that tells you just how to avoid incoming doom. The mechanics? +2 on AC and reflex saves. Yeah, that's going to be real helpful against that arrow trap you just triggered.
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Wall of Ice. It allows a reflex save, but if you are in the center and it has a 20 ft radius does the ice wall not form. Do find yourself outside the area of the spell<--I can serious cheese with that interpretation.
You must be adjacent to the wall to do that. 20ft away is not adjacent unless you are large or bigger.
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If the rules are written in a manner where it is easy for the DM to do as such, then it's not only a problem with the DM.This isn't a problem with the spell, its a problem with the DM.Not the example I would have used, but pretty much, yeah.Think RD means with charm person they know they got charmed meaning
Me and a bandit are fighting i decide i can charm him and get away i cast my spell.
Said bandit makes a spellcraft and knows the spell im casting but still fails his save.
Bandit is now friendly but knows we were fighting 6 seconds ago and knows why he thinks im his friend.
i can see an jerk DM saying that he knows all this and attacks you friendship not withstanding.
I disagree, I think a lack of rules is what lets a good GM shine. It isn't always great to play a character who leaves so much open to interpretation in a convention/Pathfinder Society play setting, where your going to get a lot of different views. At a table of friends where you have some consistency in GMing from game to game, having spots with interpretation and ambiguity is where creativity shines. If silent image said "creates an illusion of a fixed wall the obstructs the vision of your foes, will save to disbelieve" it would leave it less open to interpretation on what kind of effect it could have, but also would handicap it.
Silent image could be used to conceal a group of people from guards by covering them in the illusion of "cargo" in the back of a cart. Or divide up a battle field with an impromptu hedge of trees. Distract an thug by putting some easy targets out of the way in combat so he goes over and clubs them wasting an action. Simple spell, but as great at level one as it is at level 10 some times.
Charm works fine when treated as written, your suddenly my friend, great I'm your friend, I remember I was trying to kill you, but that is silly were friends. So I stop, now those jerks you travel with, I'm still going to kill them.... Don't forget there is a bonus to his save if you, or one of your allies has acted hostile to him, so if you cast Charm the second round of combat after poking him in the eye, then I believe the bonus to his save is like +4-5.
Interpretation lets a gm assign an arbitrary acrobatics check for a chandelier swinging charge... It's not broken... and please don't fix it.
Wall of Ice. It allows a reflex save, but if you are in the center and it has a 20 ft radius does the ice wall not form. Do find yourself outside the area of the spell<--I can serious cheese with that interpretation.You must be adjacent to the wall to do that. 20ft away is not adjacent unless you are large or bigger.
Good Catch.
I do agree with the other poster on foresight. It is not worth the spell slot.Mislead is also shutdown my spellcraft as are most illusion spells if they are cast during combat, well most illusion spells that paint a false picture anyway.
Charm Person still makes you believe the person is your buddy. In short it overrides common sense.
If a man gets a woman drunk so he can have his way, and she knows that before the first drink she may still give in, even if she would not have done so if she were not drunk. It is the same principal.
Think RD means with charm person they know they got charmed meaning
Me and a bandit are fighting i decide i can charm him and get away i cast my spell.
Said bandit makes a spellcraft and knows the spell im casting but still fails his save.
Bandit is now friendly but knows we were fighting 6 seconds ago and knows why he thinks im his friend.
i can see an jerk DM saying that he knows all this and attacks you friendship not withstanding.
That is called Metagaming, only bad DMs do that. So you have other problems of your DM does this.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
So it's a good thing 90%+ of the creatures in the game aren't able to identify spells being cast.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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So it's a good thing 90%+ of the creatures in the game aren't able to identify spells being cast.ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
Yes, but 99.8% of PC parties can identify spells being cast, which makes illusions used in combat particularly tough to use against the PCs, when the first thing they ask when a spell is cast is "I got a 28 on my spellcraft, what spell did he cast?"
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yes, but 99.8% of PC parties can identify spells being cast, which makes illusions used in combat particularly tough to use against the PCs, when the first thing they ask when a spell is cast is "I got a 28 on my spellcraft, what spell did he cast?"So it's a good thing 90%+ of the creatures in the game aren't able to identify spells being cast.ShadowcatX: Illusion spells don't work on those who have incontrovertible prove that it is false.
Witnessing them being cast (and identifying the exact illusion spell) just as the illusion appears is something most GMs would consider incontrovertible proof.
Illusion is all about deception and slight of hands, if as a GM you can't figure out ways to misdirect PCs and fool them then maybe stick with fireball and wall of stone. As a GM when using illusions I tend to be a little bit sneakier that that and the players are often fooled at least for a few rounds.
Even if you assume that the players are able to spot illusions cast every time, this doesn't mean the spells don't work as advertised, it means they are conditionally useful spells. It's like saying invisibility is pointless because *some creatures* can see invisible at will.
If you cast "disguise self" in front of a creature, do you honestly expect it will be fooled?