RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Reading the description of the cleric orison bleed, I noticed that it does not inflict actual bleed damage to a dying target, it merely forces a creature below 0 hit points to resume dying. This means that a creature who successfully stabilizes himself by way of a CON check (as per the normal rules for dying) could be subjected to the bleed spell and then succeed on the CON check again next round, stabilizing once more without any outside help.
I realize that orisons are not supposed to be terribly powerful, but if this is genuinely how the spell actually works, I really can't think of any reason to use it.... ever. Now, if the spell actively prevented "self-stabilization" and essentially forced the target to receive a Heal check/magical healing or face inevitable death, I think it would be a lot more practical.
There is a little bit of ambiguity in the verbiage for the spell, though. It states that the creature does, in fact, take 1 point of damage each round, but it says "That creature begins dying, taking 1 point of damage per round." Does this mean it gains the 'dying' condition, taking the damage as part of that condition (and allowing self-stabilization as noted previously) or is 'dying' in this case simply a descriptor and the spell actually deals 1 point of damage to the creature each round until stabilized by an outside force?
I think it's pretty much a trap option on purpose. Maybe there's a flavorful use.
Picture a cleric who has a companion who uses a wand of this spell to keep the PC's bleeding out so that the standing players have to waste rounds keeping them standing.
You could always coup de grace.
Only if you get in the right situation or you get AoO to death much better to stand back and force the party to bleed resources.
You could always coup de grace.Only if you get in the right situation or you get AoO to death much better to stand back and force the party to bleed resources.
I played a slumber witch and there's no more right situation than the situation of your choosing. ;)
Those CON checks can get pretty severe. At -8 hp that's a DC 18 check. A character with 12 CON has to roll a 17 on the die. At -14 hp the 18 CON Barbarian only makes the DC 24 check on a 20.
Picture a cleric who has a companion who uses a wand of this spell to keep the PC's bleeding out so that the standing players have to waste rounds keeping them standing.
Also, given the complete lack of other offensive orisons, the ability to start a foe bleeding again from range with no loss of resources isn't anything to be sneezed at.
If the enemy is unconscious, you could just create water above his head and drown him, or throw a rock at him.
For all those enemies who are considerate enough to drop below 0 hp in a handy water tight bathtub sized depression?
This spell is indeed pretty useless. Just hit the person with your weapon. They will not only "resume dying", the damage might be enough to kill them outright.
This spell is indeed pretty useless. Just hit the person with your weapon. They will not only "resume dying", the damage might be enough to kill them outright.
Sometimes you just dont't have the HP to run up to a dying enemy or maybe your ranged but that pesky -4 to hit is messing you up either way now your adding to the parties worry of keeping bob the fighter from dying out letting your minions run amok.
3.5 had inflict minor wounds as an orison, to reflect that you could to choose to channel an even smaller trickle of negative energy than a first level spell represents. As Pathfinder have infinite-use cantrips, it was deemed necessary to replace cure minor wounds with stabilize, and as such, its negative energy equivalent becomes bleed.
The way I see it, it's not meant to be very mechanically useful. It's there so you can have a necromancy-using character who is able to channel minute amounts of negative energy at will. If you are going for that flavour, by all means spend an orison slot on it. It's not like the opportunity cost will matter in the long run.
This spell is indeed pretty useless. Just hit the person with your weapon. They will not only "resume dying", the damage might be enough to kill them outright.Coup de grace is a full round action, Bleed is a standard action.
And making a single, regular attack against the dying guy is also a standard action.
And making a single, regular attack against the dying guy is also a standard action.
Ah, but Bleed has range...
As far as I understand it bleed can be used on stable character to make him dying again. However, when cast on a creature that is already dying it inflicts single point of damage immediately in addition to normal hp loss while dying - pushing the target closer to death and increasing DC of Constitution check to stabilize.
One thing I'd change about this spell is that it should work on characters that are at exactly 0 hp as well, reducing them to -1 and start dying.
And making a single, regular attack against the dying guy is also a standard action.Ah, but Bleed has range...So does throwing a rock.
Her'nan'do The Toady, Under-acolyte Of The-Not-So-Great-Dark-Lord (TM):
Human Cleric 1
Str 7 (-2), Dex 7 (-2), Con 10 (+0), Int 9 (-1), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 6 (-2)
Ranged: Thrown rock -2 ranged attack (1d3-2)
Spells (CL 1, concentration +2)
At will-bleed, stabilize, virtue
1/day-inflict light wounds
So Her'nan'do was so incompetent that becoming the acolyte in service of The-Not-So-Great-Dark-Lord (TM) was only viable career option. When throwing rocks he has a decent chance of actually missing unconscious person from the range of 20 feet. However, even him doesn't have a great chance to fail at bleed (except for casting it while threatened and being immediately cut down by AoO).
Uh, now I started to think about swarming my party with a throng of extremely pathetic minions...
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Yeah - the 'point' of both bleed and its opposite number stabilize is pretty much just the range. Sometimes it's a bugger getting a dying character to stabilize at low levels (and let's face it, not many are that likely to be failing save's Vs orisons at high levels anyway), and a well-timed bleed orison can do wonders for wasting the party's actions as they all try their pitiful untrained Heal checks to try to (re-)stabilize the low-Con dying team Wizard (or whatever). You can potentially do some intersting(ish) stuff by slapping on some metamagic, but generally it's going to be for evil divine casters with actions spare and a love for kicking people when they're down... you know, to help prove to the PCs just how needlessly dickish the bad guy is... like an evil Wizard ray of frosting a puppy... ;)
Actually I had some evil low level clerics that had stabilize prepared who were willing to use it at dying characters as a measure of capturing sacrifices/slaves.
However, even him doesn't have a great chance to fail at bleedWill DC 10 negate. By "doesn't have a great chance to fail", did you mean "he has more than 50% chance to fail"?
Ugh. I never noticed that saving throw line. Never bothered to check actually - with the way the spell would work without saving throw it would be bearable. With saving throw to negate it is miserable.
<goes away to make a note in house-rules>
Or an evil ghoul cleric, who has both stabilize and bleed, and is waiting for you to fail that fort save vs ghoul fever so she can turn you into a ghoul!
Why do damage with bite and risk losing a possible convert? Just bleed / stabilize them down and let the dice do the rest!
And making a single, regular attack against the dying guy is also a standard action.Ah, but Bleed has range...So does throwing a rock.
That rock is at a -8 to hit -4 from prone -4 nonprof penalty yeah ill take my bleed.
It's annoying in certain circumstances, but then again, so is Stabilize..
Powergamer > Just shoot/throw bomb/ run up and kill.
Roleplayer > DM: "You can see your companion starting to bleed out of his nose and ears.. You HAD him stable, but it appears no longer..."
Trust me, this scared the s#*! out of my players, they thought it was a "save or die" spell ^^
Actually I have... But I was pointing to the people who are thinking "inside" the box :P
I find it more grim to have someone start bleeding without them knowing why.. As opposed to hurling the bomb/alchemical compound!
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Burning corpse is not grim? Look, I have a bit of a problem with doing the most minimally effective thing being the only way to roleplay. In fact, the times I do play powerful characters, my DMs have no problem because of good roleplay. When you can intertwine good tactics with good roleplay, you can actually improve the power of roleplay, and even inspire that powergamer buddy of yours to do a little roleplay a little.
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Bleed has vocal and somatic component.
Sure - but it'll take a successful application of Spellcraft, character experience with that sort of magic, or simple metagaming cheese for low-level PCs to instantly figure out that the spell the bad guy cast to make their recently-but-no-longer stable buddy start to bleed all over the carpet was only a bleed orison.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Bleed has vocal and somatic component.Sure - but it'll take a successful application of Spellcraft, character experience with that sort of magic, or simple metagaming cheese for low-level PCs to instantly figure out that the spell the bad guy cast to make their recently-but-no-longer stable buddy start to bleed all over the carpet was only a bleed orison.
If your party doesn't have at least 1 (if not 2 or more) characters who can reliably make a DC 15 Spellcraft check at 1st level, you're the exception, not the rule. Just saying.
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Yes - they know it's a spell from the bad guy; no - they don't necessarily know what spell it is, or just how scared (or not) they should be of that spell. At least, I think that was the guy's original point.
Do most groups have characters in them with Spellcraft? Probably. Are those characters guaranteed to be conscious and guaranteed to make the check when this little tableu goes down? Less definite...
The only point I'm trying to make being that Rickmeister's suggestion is perfectly reasonable and possible, and not inherantly contradicted by the nature of the orison. ::Shrug:: YMMV, as always, but in my experience a spell having components to it doesn't always have to mean the PCs know exactly what they're facing.