In our Council of Thieves game, I rolled up a 12th level Master Summoner as an Assassin and threw her at the party. The results were a bit lopsided towards the summoner. With 4 Huge Elementals hitting in melee and wreaking havoc with whirlwinds her other 5 summoned Erinyes were free to rain down Unholy Blights and Flaming Arrows with impunity. I was forced to scale-back the encounter slightly (having Summoner's allies show up late and allies of the PCs helping out) for it to not be a TPK.
As levels scale up, the Master Summoner as a lone BBEG becomes a viable threat against the mass action economy of a party, especially as the Summons become more powerful and the monsters gain Spell-like abilities like Unholy Blight, Fireball, or even Blasphemy.
Still, there's plenty of ways to deal with a summoner using this trick besides the obvious (kill Casty):
1)Run. If a group of monsters attacks in mass like that, escape is not just smart, it makes tactical sense. If you know the monsters are summoned, you can simple out-wait their duration and then track down the Summoner accordingly.
2) Protection from Evil. It's not going to stop the more powerful spell-likes or weapon wielders, but against most creatures on the Summon list, this spell will stop the encounter flat-out.
3)Dispel it. This is where I would argue that the CR of this encounter is fair since a single, often packed spell will defeat a single monster. Even two or three can even the odds against a summoner.
Finally, keep in mind that summoning itself requires close-range, so pulling this tactic off from a distance requires an extremely situational encounter where said summoner knows exactly where the PCs are but the PCs have no knowledge of her. Since stealth isn't a class-skill for them, (and while Spell-likes don't have verbal components, any Perception-focused character should have a good chance to notice one) it would require lots of fore-knowledge on the villain's part, enough that the players might feel cheesed if you pull this tactic off.
Where did you get that idea?
Despite not being able to teleport, summon monster spells have a short range and the summons wink out of existence if they leave that range.
Post 7 and 8 of this thread, RAW.
As far as the CR is concerned, while the monsters lose their Teleport and Summoning, they are going to be a bit tougher since Master Summoners get Augment summoning as a feat. While not quite Advanced versions of themselves, the monsters for the most part are going to better in combat than normal. I honestly feel that an ad-hoc of +2/-2 CR should be assessed when fighting this particular build since it relies more-so than any other on time, time to not only buff but to also summon and then direct the summoned monsters (free action , but still requires Tongues for complex instructions relayed to non-Common speaking monsters).
I know the RAW, but I would feel dirty awarding full experience against said summoner for either ambushing him with a scry-and fry (probably resulting in a one round kill) or the aforementioned ambush by the Summoner and his 10+ summoned minions.
Where did you get that idea?
Despite not being able to teleport, summon monster spells have a short range and the summons wink out of existence if they leave that range.
Sounds like a house rule to me.
Generally then, a monster with leadership should not give xp until you kill the monster himself, so with a good enough leadership score you can throw massive amounts of monsters at them without xp? Get real. Summons do not give xp because you use combat actions to get them. And sure, some buffs have a long duration, but there is a difference between having a magic fang spell, and having every applicable buff in the book right at startof combat. Then of course, tons of low level monsters don't stack well against high level pcs, so babaus would perhaps still not be much of a problem. That's well known when dealing with CRs.
Play fair.
"Despite not being able to teleport, summon monster spells have a short range and the summons wink out of existence if they leave that range."
They can't teleport or summon.
I wasn't sure about winking out when leaving the spell range. Nowhere in the Summon Monster description does it say that.
Unless its errata I'm not aware of.
Wow, that would be the end of them.
The sad thing is, the players could opt to immediately flee, as would be sensible, and they would still probably lose, unless a very swift party. Daaamn.
The way I see it. A conjurer variant summoning creatures into combat because its their thing wouldn't increase the CR by default. A CR 8 evocation specialist gives the same amount of xp as defeating a CR 8 conjurer. However, the challenge rating of the encounter reflects how harrowing that encounter is. For something like this, the encounter is far above the difficulty level of just defeating the conjurer. In fairness, the CR of the encounter should jump and by a fair bit since a conjurer shouldn't be walking into a combat with 10+ summoned creatures ready to go. There was a question asked earlier about why the summons lasts minutes instead of rounds. That bit of the class should be changed because it creates tremendous potential to upset the balance of power in the game relative to other classes or if its a villain, relative to the party. If the party successfully defeats that encounter and you're awarding them xp for a CR 10 encounter when the summoner was CR 10, then you're ripping them off interms of xp. Plain and simple.
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And its 14 babaus and not 13, because while the master summoner can only buy a headband of cha +4 (and not +6, too expensive), he will use 2 feats for extra summon (probably not unusual for master summoner). Furthermore due to augment summoning the babaus have +14 attacks and damage weapons they are hit with unless a ref DC 20 is succesful.
I think that should provide a party with something more serious than a CR 10 encounter.
I'm sorry, damage weapons? Have you read their slime ability? It does 1d8 acid damage. That will never ever damage any weapon, even an unenchanted one. It doesn't ignore hardness, and energy damage (such as acid, fire, etc) is halved before hardness is applied. A non-magical wooden weapon has a hardness of 5. You do the math.
In our Council of Thieves game, I rolled up a 12th level Master Summoner as an Assassin and threw her at the party. The results were a bit lopsided towards the summoner. With 4 Huge Elementals hitting in melee and wreaking havoc with whirlwinds her other 5 summoned Erinyes were free to rain down Unholy Blights and Flaming Arrows with impunity. I was forced to scale-back the encounter slightly (having Summoner's allies show up late and allies of the PCs helping out) for it to not be a TPK.
As levels scale up, the Master Summoner as a lone BBEG becomes a viable threat against the mass action economy of a party, especially as the Summons become more powerful and the monsters gain Spell-like abilities like Unholy Blight, Fireball, or even Blasphemy.
Still, there's plenty of ways to deal with a summoner using this trick besides the obvious (kill Casty):
1)Run. If a group of monsters attacks in mass like that, escape is not just smart, it makes tactical sense. If you know the monsters are summoned, you can simple out-wait their duration and then track down the Summoner accordingly.
2) Protection from Evil. It's not going to stop the more powerful spell-likes or weapon wielders, but against most creatures on the Summon list, this spell will stop the encounter flat-out.
3)Dispel it. This is where I would argue that the CR of this encounter is fair since a single, often packed spell will defeat a single monster. Even two or three can even the odds against a summoner.Finally, keep in mind that summoning itself requires close-range, so pulling this tactic off from a distance requires an extremely situational encounter where said summoner knows exactly where the PCs are but the PCs have no knowledge of her. Since stealth isn't a class-skill for them, (and while Spell-likes don't have verbal components, any Perception-focused character should have a good chance to notice one) it would require lots of fore-knowledge on the villain's part, enough that the players might feel cheesed if you pull this tactic...
Good points. But don't think dispel magic will work. What is required is the dismissal spell. That's a level 5 arcane spell. Depends on the level of the caster but they aren't going to have that many level 5 slots even if they are something like level 14.
Unless I'm wrong, said Summoner could just teleport in (say, from 200 ft away and invisible), unload her army, buff and direct them, and then teleport away. A dirty DM could do this tactic indefinitely, though he'd probably want to invest in a giant plastic screen to block all the thrown d20s aimed for his head.
Point being, nothing can stop this tactic other than a DM's own sense of fair play. As bad guys go, Summoners can blow their entire wad of resources in one encounter where a PC version wouldn't ever want to, making the power balance favor the NPC overall. Still, as stated above, there are ways to deal with the build, especially if the PCs deal with the Summoner more than once or have prior knowledge of her.
@tasslehoff220: I was merely responding to someone else, I know full-well they can't summon or teleport, but I also know they can go as far as the spell will let them, based on how long it lasts. I wasn't even asking a question, I was stating an opinion.
Good points. But don't think dispel magic will work. What is required is the dismissal spell. That's a level 5 arcane spell. Depends on the level of the caster but they aren't going to have that many level 5 slots even if they are something like level 14.
No, Dispel will end almost any magical effect that isn't Instantaneous in duration (unless used as a counter-spell), so Dispel against the summoned critters works fine.
I'm sorry, damage weapons? Have you read their slime ability? It does 1d8 acid damage. That will never ever damage any weapon, even an unenchanted one. It doesn't ignore hardness, and energy damage (such as acid, fire, etc) is halved before hardness is applied. A non-magical wooden weapon has a hardness of 5. You do the math.
I was going to say that is wrong, as acid damage isn't halved before applying hardness like other energy types. But Pathfinder changed that, and it is now halved.
Also, Anti-Magic Field completely shuts down everything a Master Summoner could do, regardless of level, and its duration is going to go way past those pesky minute/level summoned critters. If your PCs are worried about this build (and it really only becomes terrifying at the Summon VI+), one casting of this spell will stop the fight.
@tasslehoff220: I was merely responding to someone else, I know full-well they can't summon or teleport, but I also know they can go as far as the spell will let them, based on how long it lasts. I wasn't even asking a question, I was stating an opinion.
To Clarify
This is a house rule. Nowhere in the description of Summon Monster does it state that once conjured, the monsters must stay within spell range or they wink out. Some conjurations, such as Flaming Sphere do specifically state that they wink out when the effect moves beyond the spell range. That is not the case with any of the Summon spells.
They DO wink out if they enter an anti-magic field, but other than that, a summoner can summon and direct his minion to attack someone 1,000 feet away if the summoner can somehow see them.
-No Teleporation- Check.
-No Summoning- Check.
-Winking out when beyond spell range?- House rule
The range of a summoning spell only matters during the initial summoning process. Otherwise, you would have a hard time utilizing all those huge and gargantuan summons effectively.
I can just imagine an abyssal sorcerer with the Superior Summoning feat getting trampled under his pyramid of 7 fiendish brontosauruses.
Although summons can't use their own teleportation abilities, nothing stops the Summoner from teleporting them himself or providing them with other means of teleportation.
@voska66
Your party must be bored by adventure paths, because all CR 12 encounters i saw so far in the APs are a lot less dangerous than 14 CR 6 monsters. And exactly how does you paladin deal 174 damage vs AC 19 per round?
The Babaus would be softened up by some spells and arrows before the paladin with a move 20 engages the Babaus. So by the time the Paladin get's their swing in which does on average 30 damage per hit the Babaus would be dead. The Babaus just don't have the defenses to survive against the party. The CR 12 encounters in King Maker do. Much higher saves, more hit point, and higher AC for example. As well better equipment.
But really in this fight the Babaus are the distraction. Just used to keep the party busy while the Summoner puts up defense and gets ready to summon the Eidelon using Instant Summon (lvl 2 spell). It's what I'd do if I were a loan summoner against party of 5.
Although summons can't use their own teleportation abilities, nothing stops the Summoner from teleporting them himself or providing them with other means of teleportation.
A 9th level Summoner doesn't have teleport till they can cast 4th level spells. So they are one level out. But you could give them a scroll or two of teleportation.
But really in this fight the Babaus are the distraction. Just used to keep the party busy while the Summoner puts up defense and gets ready to summon the Eidelon using Instant Summon (lvl 2 spell). It's what I'd do if I were a loan summoner against party of 5.
Being a Master Summoner means that his eidolon is likely weaker than the fiends.
But really in this fight the Babaus are the distraction. Just used to keep the party busy while the Summoner puts up defense and gets ready to summon the Eidelon using Instant Summon (lvl 2 spell). It's what I'd do if I were a loan summoner against party of 5.Being a Master Summoner means that his eidolon is likely weaker than the fiends.
Yup and that's why this is easy an fight for a APL 10 party. It just looks intimidating but the reality it much different.
I had a party where I was level 12 and my other 2 party members were level 9s who were still learning the game. If the DM said "Theres 13 babaus, they are ambushing you, roll initiative." I would sigh softly, take stock of terrain, and then proceed to wipe the floor with the monsters, probably in 2-3 rounds.
I would give the "really? Again?...okay" look when he said how cleverly I was getting no treasure and only experience for a CR 10 encounter. but that is what I came to expect from 3.5, and it net'd me rewards int he way of epic war stories to tell my girlfriend after sessions.
You took into account the babau's abilities to prevent the party from fleeing, but you didn't take into account how long they would last in a fight where they aren't able to take advantage of the terrain to accomplish their goal and the PCs are. I figure that all a decently optimized party would expend in resources to destroy this encounter would be 1/4 of their resources at most. So I'd say yes, its about equivalent to a CR 10 encounter, assuming that you have a player or 2 with advanced tactical knowledge.
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If your players are not careless they should hide when they camp. Survival and stealth skills go for the win. At least they will not be surprised.
The Babaus would be softened up by some spells and arrows before the paladin with a move 20 engages the Babaus. So by the time the Paladin get's their swing in which does on average 30 damage per hit the Babaus would be dead. The Babaus just don't have the defenses to survive against the party. The CR 12 encounters in King Maker do. Much higher saves, more hit point, and higher AC for example. As well better equipment.
SO the paladin has dps of 60. With buffs or without?
I do not know King Maker 4thpart (which probably contains the CR 12 encounters), but the CR12 encounters of Carrioncrwon and jaderegent are both easier i think.
No buffs just a Two Handed Sword and Power attack. With buffs the Paladin is much better given 2 rounds to do so. But since this is an ambush and I didn't put buffs into the picture.
Basically Two Handed Sword with 2D6 +10 Str, +3 Magic, +9 Power Attack. That comes to 29. So the 30 damage is generally what I see him do unbuffed and is pretty close to that number.
The scenario brings up a valid question. How far is too far when designing an encounter? All I'll say is this, killing pc's is easy, but that shouldn't be the DMs goal. Providing a challenge and having fun, that should be the goal.
As for "Any other nice encounter suggestions tweaking CR number?" Equipping the badguys with exactly the right equipment (using your metagame knowledge of the characters) can skew CR numbers.
Exactly that. Make the game fun.
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I start to think, that few people actually read and take care to check things.
Before making smartass comments maybe you should think about what is written the post you are citing.
The babau are weaker than normal as some of their abilities don't work and they are affected by spells that will not affect them normally.
You can argue how much weaker they are and how much that is overcome by the other advantages they have in your scenario, but that is a weakness not the less.
Your 13 dispel magic. Step by step.
1) Each one require a action, provoke an attack of opportunity. DC21 to cast defensively with a +9 to the concentration check. so less than 50% will be cast successfully.
2) then it should be aimed at the right spell on the right individual. Hmm, your demons have 0 spellcrat and 0 knowledge arcana.
So, unless you are using DM fiat and deciding that they know who is the target of the protection/magic circle spell and what spell it is (Protection from evil? From chaos? Magic circle?) they will be targeting random creatures and start dispelling spells starting with the spell with highest caster level (dispel magic don't say anything about how you select between spells with the same CL, so we can borrow from Greater dispel magic and start with the highest level spells or roll randomly)
3) Then they will have to match a DC of 21 to dispel, with a CL of 7.
65% chance of failure.
How many actions will the babu expend to remove the effect of one action of mine?
But they have +22 stealth
And the spotters of the group have +16 perception or so.
Unless both your babau and the spotters take 10 all the time, 13 stealth rolls agaisnt 13 perception roll, each round, while the babaus are approaching, mean that they will be detected some distance away unless they have ungoodly luck.
Even if the babau have total cover from sight till they are adjacent to the party they can be still heard, smelled and so on, so you still have to account for all those rolls.
Plenty of familiars and animal companions have scent too. Oops, your babau will be detected when they get within 30' and for that level even the animal intelligence creatures will be trained to raise the alarm when a bunch of strange smelling creatures is approaching the campsite.
Your operation is a stealth assault, not an ambush.
If your players are not careless they should hide when they camp. Survival and stealth skills go for the win. At least they will not be surprised.
Ha ha, yeah! If the camouflage is good enough, an enemy could find the camp via divination/tracking and still not find all the party members. Dms have smirked at my playing of paranoid pcs, sleeping hidden up in trees, making a secondary camp away from the others, sleeping in interdimensional bags down a rat hole, with the characters head covered from view.
Ambushes happen, sometimes when a dm is bored, sometimes as an over-used tactic, but the party should always be hard to pin down, and ready/able to escape--but that is up to the pc planning.
A bored wizard could even use magic jar, sit on "watch" inside the gem ready to attack life forces, and leave their body disguised as an attacked and killed peasant, and surrounded by zombies.
Do they attack the sleeping pcs? The zombies? Don't get too close to the gem...
Then again, will the players be ready when this babau stealth assault comes?
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Then check the description of dispel magic first, according to this description, one does not need to know the spells targeting the individual.I start to think, that few people actually read and take care to check things.
Before making smartass comments maybe you should think about what is written the post you are citing.
Really? I should have dreamed this:
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
Next.
Then check protation form evil , it brakes if the protected creature attack, so AOOs remove the protection.
if the AoO is made by the protected character.
Third, you do not have active spells at start of combat. So when the priest touches himself and wiggles with his arms the demon know he cast a spell upon himself.
And when the spellcaster wiggle his fingers and touch some other guy? Or target his touching familiar?
Or he is a bars performing?Or...
No spellcraft, No knowledge arcana. You don't know if he is casting and what.
Fourth, they have reach spears so depending on situation they do not care much for protection from evil and AOOs. And it might be too crowded for some, so they can dispel freely.
So some of them are already not acting, great.
Fifth, dispel magic requires only naming the spell effect not the spell. So to dispel the wall of fire you do not need to know that wall of fire spell exists or that it is a wall of fire and not an illusion looking like a wall of fire. So the demons target that spell that keeps them from entering, if there is a protection circle. No need to detail the spell.
Naming the spell effect is naming the spell. "Something is keeping me out, dispel it" is absurd and a distortion of the rules.
And i upped the number to 14 without changing the summoner build much and keeping it well in line how a master summoner might look like in a players hands.
And that change something in the whole argument?
About stealth, its suprise round everybody rolls perception perception and can only act if he notices the attack. So the percep 16 guy has a decent chance (remember the -2 to -4 for distance, its -1 per 10 ft), but the rest dumb guys will be surprised.
Worst roll for the Babau 23, best roll for the perception guys: 36. They start rolling at 130' and they roll every round.
The babaus using stealth move 15' or get a -5 to the roll.That mean 8 checks for each babau.
I can see why you want to avoid 104 die rolls but if you don't make them you are cheating your players.
Then they will have to match a DC of 21 to dispel, with a CL of 7.
65% chance of failure.How many actions will the babu expend to remove the effect of one action of mine?
To remove 1 spell, representing 25% activity of the partys total per round, the babaus will spend 3, representing 21% of their activity or less if done by babaus standing in the back.
You forget all the babaus that fail the concentration check, or that keep outside of the party reach to cast without the check and so get only a single attack instead of the full routine the next round.
And "the party can do that" looks rather empty without a party at hand.And i know some AP encounters and the CR 10 ones are a lot weaker than that encounter.
And of course nothing keeps the master summoner from joining, doesn't change the CR, as the CR is from a level 9 NPC with standard NPC wealth ambushing the party (increasing CR by 2).
And you still are responding to something that wasn't my comment.
To repeat it again:its [the encounter] CR is lower than a encounter with the same demons coming through a gate.
Where this statement is false?
The summoned babaus have hindrances that called babaus don't have.
So, when all the other conditions are identical, the summoned ones are weaker.
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No, before:
Dispel magic
"Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected."
And you dispel one random spell of the caster level you can affect.
It can be false life, it can be armor, it can be greater magic weapon, ecc. ecc., plenty of long lasting spells you cast when you wake the morning, and that will stay up most of the day if you are level 10.Not much useful when what you want to dispel is that magic circle against evil/chaos that is keeping you from harming your targets.
Ok, sorry, that statement is true.
....
But you might also realize something:I only claim that this encounter is far more dangerous than the normal adventure path CR 10 encounters. If its 12 or 13 the party is expected to survive
You were the one ranting about "you haven't read the posts" and missing the key part of my post. The original comment wasn't even aimed at you but to the people saying "it is a CR 12 (14 or whatever) as there hare X CR 6 Babau.
.
Encounter distance btw is enviroment dependent and can be less than 30 ft in some circumstances. And whether or not the babaus can dispel or not depends on circumstances. Oten they could be able to take a 5 ft step and then cast. Or they are standing at 10 ft distance anyway since attacking with spear. Or they do not care about protect because of spear. Too many variables.
Yes and not. There are encounter distances based on the environment, but the worse (dense forest) is 2d6*10 ft. Make it 20'. That is at least 2 perception check against each babau by practically any character as almost all of them have a chance to beat the worst possible roll for a babau (23).
In game reality almost all character will have high perception, most of them on the 8+ range.
Against 13 bababu it is almost granted that they will get some success.
Then there is the little question on how are the babaus finding the characters.
The reduced visibility work bot ways and if the babu are moving stealthy checks in a dense forest their speed will be terribly low (7,5 ft/round).
As they don't have survival skills, the visibility is under 60' and they are in a forest they will have to make a DC 16 survival skill to get to the PC camp.
I see those 14 babau rolling their skill, choose 8 different directions and starting a shouting match to decide who is right :D
More probably being chaotic everyone will follow his opinion and split in a different direction.
If the summoner is casting so nearby the group that getting to them it will not be a problem, then he is casting so nearby that he can be detected.
In a urban environment, if the babau will have to open a door or break a window to get to the PC their stealth will not help them.
Stealth is great is you have 1-2 guys using it. With 14 guys it is almost useless. (I mean under the current game rules)
Right on stealth. Eventually someone botches it up. This is why I am so impressed by the rarely seen stealth parties. Party of rogues, ninjas, rogue monks, whatever, you can trust them to make the checks and not fail as often as a diverse party trying to be quiet, Elmer Fudd style.
Get away, come back in half a day, track, string up a wizard, eat bacon.