that doesn't destroy adventures. Just changes them.Which I said, in the rest of the post.
They don't destroy campaigns, but the spells' very existence forces the DM/adventure writer to write adventures with such powers in mind.
I've still not decided whether I like the convenience for the players, or dislike the way it invalidates certain staples of storytelling and forces adventures to be designed around spellcasters more than any other character classes.
Right, because those problems are only because of the overpowered wizards...
Seriously, any ranger (or anyone with decent survial really) could trek that distance and bypass most encounters or trivialize the others by altering the environement they happen in to be favorable to the party. The only difference is that would take time, both in and out of game.
If you design your party with stealth in mind, most things will never even be able to see the party traveling.
But people tend to ignore these basic benefits of skills and say they are worthless by those levels. In my games, skills tend to outshine the wizards.
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You're missing the point.
I would totally have the NPC wizard pop up a hundred feet away (with Greater Invisibility of course) and cast a Dispel Magic on his bloody skeleton while he is adding his one hundredth Explosive Rune spell.You described an event in which you created an NPC placed close to the PC with convenient defences, conveniently casting dispel magic when he placed a set number of explosive runes. You did not say the NPC heard of this PC before, you did not say he scried him, researched him, investigated/scouted him, watched and recorded him, etc. You just said he pops up and screws him over at just the right time.
Edit: Obviously you would do all this, but I'm just saying how you didn't mention it so it comes across as fiat.
I'm going to use the exact same logic players do.
After having his minions destroyed, the NPC wizard started using divination magic to identify the tactics, locate the source and time his assault with a tailored spell list.
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If mundane skills are overshadowing characters with powers which can literally reshpae reality then either your wizard playes are very bad or your GM is extremely permissive about what skills can actually do.
If the GM is ruling skills cannot be used to reshape the world and only magic can effectively solve problems the GM is extremely restrictive, and probably needs to look outside his basement window.
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andreww pointed out a problem spell that I think illustrates what should be the, and generally is, the limit on full casters.
Fragility.
The full caster is very, very powerful. And generally also vulnerable if they become the primary target. Looking at the other builds, we see characters that largely play rocket tag. The problem being, they can be tagged...
My experience is that the "God" wizard also tends to be the dead wizard, depending on the encounter.
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Using Diplomacy to reshape the hearts and minds of a nation is going to take a hell of a lot longer for a mundane character than for a spellcaster with acces to, say, the ability to planar bind angels to deliver the good word anywhere you want and to perform amazing miracles to convince people of the rightness of your cause.
Lets take a look at the limitations of your magic.
unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
If the angels feel the influence you are requesting is unreasonable, they will not assist you.
The creature might later seek revenge
Just in case your try to force the issue, do you want to be hunted down by angels?
Researching the compelling of Angels a little further, we look at True Name, which functions as Planer Binding
If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further.
The last thing your want is the personal attention of a Solar and his attendant host after trying to use his soldiers to subvert a nation.
There is a reason Razmir uses human servants to spread his word, not raw power. Slowly. Over the course of many years.
You cannot use magic to reshape the hearts and minds of an entire nation.
You could do so (and has been done in real life) with sufficient skills in Oration and Diplomacy.And your misconception is assuming that things which have occurred in the real world are actually possible in the PF rules. Using Diplomacy to reshape the hearts and minds of a nation is going to take a hell of a lot longer for a mundane character than for a spellcaster with acces to, say, the ability to planar bind angels to deliver the good word anywhere you want and to perform amazing miracles to convince people of the rightness of your cause.
Mundane effects simply dont reach the same level of impact as magic.
Assuming the Angels don't have an agenda of their own, and you can convince them to do what you want, and you can find the resources required to do that. Planar Binding specifically says it is dangerous to use and the creature still has a mostly free will. Planar Ally specifically says that they may refuse requests for aid, and they require payment. You are forcing major NPCs to do your bidding. Any GM not exploiting this isn't doing his job. It is what the spells specifically call for doing.
Really? Planar bind some angels and tell them to go forth into the countryside, heal the injured, cleanse the afflicted and generally do good works. Oh and tell people I sent you..."
That is an unreasonable request to make of a Good outsider? I dont think it is and it's far more likely to have a real effect on the beliefs of the populace than one muundane character trying to use diplomacy.
It is demeaning to them. These are Warriors and Soldiers of light, and you are requesting they become subservient to you and leave the battlefield between good and evil where they are needed in order to deal with mundane everyday problems.
Mundane disguises get past magical detection. Mundane stealth beats magical detection. Add bluff, and you have a character who can walk into most enemy bases, do almost whatever he wants, and walk out. A caster not only has a time limit for doing these things, but is usually more obvious. I have had spies spend days in enemy camps gathering information that magic-reliant characters would never have been able to. Hell, even learning who to scry on can cause casters a lot of difficulty.They do and mundane scouting can be effective. of course you make it more effective with magic which increaes those skill levels.
Sometimes. Which is why this is a team game. The wizard is unlikely to have the skill points needed to have all the skills necessary.
A full caster however doesnt need to do that. They will be using Divination spells to get the same result if not more. If your target is a powerful spellcaster they *may* be protected by Mind Blank but you can be pretty certain their staff, lietenants and allies are not, if only due to the limited number of level 8 spell slots.
If you know your target. If he doesn't save, which alerts him to potential threat. You need to know who his lietenants are first, or they should be trivially passing your save DCs. You only get to see 10 feet with scrying, so often not even an entire room, and the sensor can be seen, once again raising their alarm. You need to know what questions to ask with any of the yes/no divinations, not to mention potential intentionally misleading answers to questions or the very possible "I don't know" from whomever you are asking.
And yes a single divination spell wont tell you everything you want to know and may give you false information which is why you cast more than one to cross check the answers you are being given. And you do this all from the comfort of your own home without risking being captured and then slowly roasted over a hot fire.
But every failed or detected spell slowly gives the enemy awareness of who you are and gives them time to prepare, alter their defenses, and first strike you in the "safety of your own home" when you have spent limitted resources on scouting.
Scrying and Divination are useful tools, but to claim they make other tools obsolete is laughable.
Assuming the Angels don't have an agenda of their own, and you can convince them to do what you want, and you can find the resources required to do that. Planar Binding specifically says it is dangerous to use and the creature still has a mostly free will. Planar Ally specifically says that they may refuse requests for aid, and they require payment. You are forcing major NPCs to do your bidding. Any GM not exploiting this isn't doing his job. It is what the spells specifically call for doing.1. On the convincing side of things as a Sorcerer I am almost certainly beating the opposed Charisma check, as a Wizard I am employing Moment of Prescience to make sure.
Still not a guarantee, depending on how your GM handles situational bonuses.
2. Yes the summoned creatures may well have an agenda of their own and I am personally a great proponent of called creatures used irresponsibly seeking vengeance. I think its a significant part of the reason why chain binding efritti for Wishes doesnt work. magically kidnapping multiple powerful lawful evil outsiders is going to have repurcusions.
I did forget to add "when abused" at the end of my original quote. We are in agreement here.
3. However, calling good aligned outsiders to undertake good works is far less likely to arouse that sort of response. Sure it might be an annoyance butn Heaven has a vast number of soldiers and having an arcane caster divert a few to help cure the sick or recover from some major disaster doesnt seem likely to draw down the god squad retribution team.
It depends on how much they like you, if they can see your full agenda, if they agree with your agenda. There are enough variables that it really depends on the character. You are trying to get a GOOD creature to do your bidding and further your goals. If you aren't good yourself, this could cause you some great problems, like finding out that while he is going and helpign people he could be telling them that you are enslaving him as a show of power and are a cruel or unworthy master. Not necessarily the advertisement you want.
4. Also I am not sure I would count a mid CR good outsider like, say a CR12 Monadic Deva with at will remove disease who you send to combat a plague as being a major NPC. Not in comparison to say a level 15-20 party employing such tactics.
I do. It is on par with any cohort the players will have.
Likewise, there are (admittedly ill-defined) issues of balance in terms of allowing planar forces to shape mortal events. If agents of the good planes can go around making the world a better place, that sends the signal that the forces of evil get a free pass to come and wreak more havoc to maintain some sort of "cosmic balance." (Admittedly, the bad guys aren't usually concerned with this sort of thing, so the angels are playing with a handicap...but that's sort of what good does, anyway - holding back for reasons of personal ethics.)I could totally see that happening as a natural consequence of players seeking powerful celestial aid and it could be a very interesting plot twist.
If you want an idea of how summoning and magic generally changes campaigns at high level hunt out the Actual Play by Sepulchrave for Lady Despina's Virtue and Pharamne's Urn over on EnWorld. Be warned they are incredibly long and you may lose several days reading them.
And that is kinda the point. Players relying on magic to solve their problems introduce unintended consequences. When those consequences are ignored, it appears that wizards are overpowered. But when they are taken into account by a good GM, it becomes much less obvious.
Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
Still not a guarantee, depending on how your GM handles situational bonuses.I am not suggesting that any of this is guaranteed. What I am saying is that it is more likely to be effective than a single person using a mundance skill.
This was all a bit of a sideline following someones comment about changing the views of a nation. How about we consider other options. Who do you think has the more effective, efficient and speedy resolution in the following situations:
1. Rescuing a ship from a raging storm.
The Fighter with Profession (Sailor) or the Druid with Control Winds or the Wizard with Control Weather
Control Winds - radius 40 ft /lvl, 40 ft high. The radius doesn't move, and isn't large enough to signficantly affect wave size, so you still have to deal with capsizing or being pushed out of the area of effect. Your mast may be screwed, since the spell only affects 40 ft high. That could be some bad sheer stress Hell, it may not even affect your ship all the time if the waves are large enough. This spell may actually make weathering a large storm more difficult. Also, this only gives you a few hours of calm seas. I would probably prefer the +11.
Control Weather - now your looking at 13th level character, so comparing it to a potential +16 from just skill points. This is a great spell to have if you get caught in this situation, but how frequently are they going to have this memorized? For most characters, a 7th level spell slot is a significant investment.
I can't say I would rather have the sailor until I can find some actual rules for weather DCs for ships. Until then, they are entirely up to the DM in my mind, which brings it into territory of it depends on what table I am sitting at. Also, depending on the campaign, is it worth throwing points in the skill in the first place?
2. Build fortifications against the oncoming orc horde.
The Fighter with Knowledge (Engineering) (we hope) and a few hundred labourers or the Wizard/Druid/Cleric with Wall of Stone and the ability to summons Earth Elementals and the same labourers.
Those earth elementals are looking at a few hundred gold a pop potentially and some high level spell slots, since Summon Monster would be close to worthless with its short durration you would need Planar Binding to make any real affect. The Fighter would be able to move more rock than the elementals, since he likely has roughly equal strength and can go all day. The walls of stone definetely are nice. I never said magic didn't make things easier.
3. Help to stop a plague rampaging through the land.
The Fighter with Heal(!) or the Cleric who Planar Ally's some Angels who can remove disease at will.
Angels who will barely be able to make a dent in the plague either, and will require at minimum 500GP/day of service. For that price you could get quite a bit of medicine shipped in instead. If the plague is magical in nature, you can't guarantee that the Angels will be able to get past the plague's SR. If it doesn't have SR, why aren't the local clerics able to deal with the problem without your intervention? Sure the skill character obviously loses here, but this is also a challenge designed for other ways of thinking.
Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
Fabricate is one of the few spells in core that I believe needs massive rework.
You know guys, we have gone far beyond the OP. the question is “GMs: have really ever had an issue with the so-called G-d Wizard”.
The point wasn’t whether or not the Wizard class can be broken with silly builds. It can. The point wasn’t whether or not Sepllcasters are more powerful/flexible/game breaking at high level (this is generally accepted and almso has a dozen threads). The point was about the Treatmonk “G-d Wizard” which he seemed to think was the end-all, be-all of PC’s.
And, it doesn’t seem to be. Battlefield control is very useful, but in the end, someone has to kill the monster. What a Battlefield control specllcaster does is allow the Party to concentrate fire while not allowing the bad guys to do the same (or in some cases making the bad guys more or less out of it). Now, I know theorycrafting is fun, and seeing how you could build a PC who could break a game is fun, but it doesn’t have much to do with the question.
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Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Gee, that is an awful nice lump of metal...
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1. Rescuing a ship from a raging storm.
The Fighter with Profession (Sailor) or the Druid with Control Winds or the Wizard with Control Weather.
The fighter with +16 profession(sailor) should see the storm coming and prepare in advance.
If the storm was sudden, your wizard won't be casting on a storm tossed deck. The fighter can still work.
I think it was gustavo iglesias who came up with this example, my apologies if I am incorrect.
deceiving a hostile member of the king council to vote for something he is fanatically opposed to.
...
They plannar binded a trpet(sic) archon and forced it to tell him to vote yes as a matter of faith (then killed the archon)
Does any good GM allow a party to get away with this kind of thing without retaliation?
Back on topic. I have not had any trouble with a god wizard. I had one player in particular that was very good and played a wizard of this type. Several times he ended up having just the right spell to make things incredibly easy.
One notable time was when he cast Passwall on the outer wall of a vampire's tower and then Gust of Wind to blow the gaseous form of a vampire out into the sunlight. Who prepares those types of spells? Well, apparently he though of it and it was the perfect combination. This happened in a real game and is not just theory crafting.
This did not break the game, it just meant we could move on to the next encounter without having to spend an hour trying to figure out how to deal with a vampire that couldn't be staked (special rules for this particular vampire).
Also, another thing that Treantmonk brought up in his guide was that the "God Wizard" was supposed to try to blend into the background to not attract notice. You let the BSF and Glass Cannon deal tons of damage and draw attention. Sure you cast Haste and Stinking Cloud to boost your friends and disable the enemy, but you are not the threat. Or at least that is what you hope your enemy things. If played well, by the time the enemy realizes that everything is going so poorly because the wizard keeps screwing him over it will (hopefully) be too late.
Compare this to the wizard (or sorcerer) that enchants exploding skeletons, continually blows things up or throws around death effects. There you know who the target is. Not to say this can't be fun, but be prepared to be a target.
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I love the repeated argument that "I've never had this problem; therefore, the problem doesn't exist."
I've never died in a plane crash. Guess what? That doesn't mean the laws of physics prevent planes from falling out of the air. It just means it hasn't personally happened to me, thanks to the hard work of the engineers, mechanios, navigators, and pilots. It takes a lot of effort to keep a plane from falling.
I also note that people who can't afford plane tickets don't get on planes, and therefore don't die in plane crashes -- but again, that doesn't mean the laws of physics prevent plane crashes. It means those people will never see them.
Likewise, the rules as written make ridiculously powerful wizards almost a default condition for people who excercise a modicum of system mastery. Some people lack that mastery (i.e., don't get on the plane) and don't see them. Most people rely on the hard work of the engineers (players sticking to a gentleman's agreement not to play them to their capability) and pilots (DMs spending a disproportionate amount of effort spoecifically keeping the casters in check, rather than in running the rest of the game).
The thing is, we can't change the laws of physics. But we can change the rules of the game. Why not do so up front, instead of relying on all this effort on the part of all the participants?
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I love the repeated argument that "I've never had this problem; therefore, the problem doesn't exist."
I've had the problem several times.
It was always either the result of an incompetent DM hand waving the wizards antics or a situation where the player running the wizard had a far higher level of system mastery than everybody else.
I've seen non-casters cause similar problems under the same circumstances.
With a competent DM, I've never had the problem.
I also note that people who can't afford plane tickets don't get on planes, and therefore don't die in plane crashes -- but again, that doesn't mean the laws of physics prevent plane crashes. It means those people will never see them.
You forgot the people who say "you got your pilot's license and sit in the pilot's seat and turn the plane on, but the plane won't take off for you because it's got some other agenda [asspull fiat]."
Of course, a good DM is one who will use asspull fiat to nerf obviously broken or abusable abilities in order to keep the campaign from nosediving into the dirt. So, naturally, in a good campaign with a good DM and mature players you won't see the obvious problems. Which doesn't mean RAW is perfect.
Mundane stealth beats magical detection. Add bluff, and you have a character who can walk into most enemy bases, do almost whatever he wants, and walk out. A caster not only has a time limit for doing these things, but is usually more obvious. I have had spies spend days in enemy camps gathering information that magic-reliant characters would never have been able to. Hell, even learning who to scry on can cause casters a lot of difficulty.
we had this particular situation in our WotW campaign. The pc had to infiltrate into an enemy base, disable 3 consorts of a dragon, then defeat the dragon. Most players have huge bluff skills. Even the wizard has stealth. The summoner had +45 in diplomacy and bluff. They also have big disguise checks.
It didn't work. Half the guys in the island were able to cast at will Detect Evil, Detect Thought, or both. You'll need magic of some sort (including UMD or magic items).
Magic is like nuvlear weapons. Once one side has, the only possible answer is having them too.
I think it was gustavo iglesias who came up with this example, my apologies if I am incorrect.
Does any good GM allow a party to get away with this kind of thing without retaliation?deceiving a hostile member of the king council to vote for something he is fanatically opposed to.
...
They plannar binded a trpet(sic) archon and forced it to tell him to vote yes as a matter of faith (then killed the archon)
who said there is not going to be one?
Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.Gee, that is an awful nice lump of metal...
That's a compelling argument, its not like Wizards have a good INT bonus (Certainly not +7 or more by the time they can cast Fabricate) and there is definitely not a spell that would give give a bonus explicitly to Craft checks. And man... Masterwork is a whole DC 20... If only there was some way we could take 10 since we aren't in immediate danger or distracted.
10 Base from Taking 10, +7 Int, +5 Crafter's Fortune = Craft Check of 22. Masterwork stuff is in fact... pretty nice metal!
I think it was gustavo iglesias who came up with this example, my apologies if I am incorrect.
deceiving a hostile member of the king council to vote for something he is fanatically opposed to.
...
They plannar binded a trpet(sic) archon and forced it to tell him to vote yes as a matter of faith (then killed the archon)
Does any good GM allow a party to get away with this kind of thing without retaliation?
Back on topic. I have not had any trouble with a god wizard. I had one player in particular that was very good and played a wizard of this type. Several times he ended up having just the right spell to make things incredibly easy.
One notable time was when he cast Passwall on the outer wall of a vampire's tower and then Gust of Wind to blow the gaseous form of a vampire out into the sunlight. Who prepares those types of spells? Well, apparently he though of it and it was the perfect combination. This happened in a real game and is not just theory crafting.
This did not break the game, it just meant we could move on to the next encounter without having to spend an hour trying to figure out how to deal with a vampire that couldn't be staked (special rules for this particular vampire).
Also, another thing that Treantmonk brought up in his guide was that the "God Wizard" was supposed to try to blend into the background to not attract notice. You let the BSF and Glass Cannon deal tons of damage and draw attention. Sure you cast Haste and Stinking Cloud to boost your friends and disable the enemy, but you are not the threat. Or at least that is what you hope your enemy things. If played well, by the time the enemy realizes that everything is going so poorly because the wizard keeps screwing him over it will (hopefully) be too late.
Compare this to the wizard (or sorcerer) that enchants exploding skeletons, continually blows things up or throws around death effects. There you know who the target is. Not to say this can't be fun, but be prepared to be a target.
I'm not the one reading the runes (in fact the caster is literally the one person who CAN'T set them off). All anyone without See Invisibility on is going to see is three party members and 2 Skeletons that look awfully bloody. Then the opponents would have to have sufficient Spellcraft to identify Explosive Runes and know that the Divine Caster isn't the source (unless of course they have the Rune Domain). I'm still waiting on that CR 9 encounter by the way.
(Do I get to call Lord Twig's scenarios Schrodinger's Encounter? I think do!)
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Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.Gee, that is an awful nice lump of metal...That's a compelling argument, its not like Wizards have a good INT bonus (Certainly not +7 or more by the time they can cast Fabricate) and there is definitely not a spell that would give give a bonus explicitly to Craft checks. And man... Masterwork is a whole DC 20... If only there was some way we could take 10 since we aren't in immediate danger or distracted.
10 Base from Taking 10, +7 Int, +5 Crafter's Fortune = Craft Check of 22. Masterwork stuff is in fact... pretty nice metal!
So wizards are overpowered, because they can invest in mundane skills?
The wizard is going to have a full skill investment in everything else he may ever wish to fashion with fabricate?
Or are you playing Schrodinger and just assuming the character has full skill progression in all skills?
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I'm not the one reading the runes (in fact the caster is literally the one person who CAN'T set them off). All anyone without See Invisibility on is going to see is three party members and 2 Skeletons that look awfully bloody. Then the opponents would have to have sufficient Spellcraft to identify Explosive Runes and know that the Divine Caster isn't the source (unless of course they have the Rune Domain). I'm still waiting on that CR 9 encounter by the way.
And after the last few months of spontaneously detonating skeletons, anybody with a knowledge: local is going to know exactly what they are.
Word spreads. Campaign worlds are not static. Frequently used tactics are adapted to.
I also hope you never enter a town or encounter any innocent travelerss.
Fighter: Well guys I'mma use my Craft Skill to help us outfit a small group of people. If I really knuckle down on making some full plate I should be done....
Wizard: Fabricate.
This is really the most obvious example.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.Gee, that is an awful nice lump of metal...That's a compelling argument, its not like Wizards have a good INT bonus (Certainly not +7 or more by the time they can cast Fabricate) and there is definitely not a spell that would give give a bonus explicitly to Craft checks. And man... Masterwork is a whole DC 20... If only there was some way we could take 10 since we aren't in immediate danger or distracted.
10 Base from Taking 10, +7 Int, +5 Crafter's Fortune = Craft Check of 22. Masterwork stuff is in fact... pretty nice metal!
So wizards are overpowered, because they can invest in mundane skills?
The wizard is going to have a full skill investment in everything else he may ever wish to fashion with fabricate?
Or are you playing Schrodinger and just assuming the character has full skill progression in all skills?
I assumed the Wizard had no skills (did you actually READ the post?). The INT Bonus and Crafter's Fortune can be used for ANY Craft Skill. Your post literally makes no sense.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate
10 Base from Taking 10, +7 Int, +5 Crafter's Fortune = Craft Check of 22. Masterwork stuff is in fact... pretty nice metal!
So wizards are overpowered, because they can invest in mundane skills?
The wizard is going to have a full skill investment in everything else he may ever wish to fashion with fabricate?
Or are you playing Schrodinger and just assuming the character has full skill progression in all skills?
the wizard in his example doea not have any rank in craft. He uses high INT and a spell to fabricate masterwork full plates
I'm not the one reading the runes (in fact the caster is literally the one person who CAN'T set them off). All anyone without See Invisibility on is going to see is three party members and 2 Skeletons that look awfully bloody. Then the opponents would have to have sufficient Spellcraft to identify Explosive Runes and know that the Divine Caster isn't the source (unless of course they have the Rune Domain). I'm still waiting on that CR 9 encounter by the way.And after the last few months of spontaneously detonating skeletons, anybody with a knowledge: local is going to know exactly what they are.
Word spreads. Campaign worlds are not static. Frequently used tactics are adapted to.
I also hope you never enter a town or encounter any innocent travelerss.
Hex is Neutral and unlikely to cause any more problems then a normal adventurer in town. Your basically just throwing things out that are so vague that no conclusion can be reached. Any Class' tactic can be adapted to by the campaign world so that's a pretty meaningless argument.
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the wizard in his example doea not have any rank in craft. He uses high INT and a spell to fabricate masterwork full plates
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate
10 Base from Taking 10, +7 Int, +5 Crafter's Fortune = Craft Check of 22. Masterwork stuff is in fact... pretty nice metal!
So wizards are overpowered, because they can invest in mundane skills?
The wizard is going to have a full skill investment in everything else he may ever wish to fashion with fabricate?
Or are you playing Schrodinger and just assuming the character has full skill progression in all skills?
Fabricate requires crafting skills.
Mundane stealth beats magical detection. Add bluff, and you have a character who can walk into most enemy bases, do almost whatever he wants, and walk out. A caster not only has a time limit for doing these things, but is usually more obvious. I have had spies spend days in enemy camps gathering information that magic-reliant characters would never have been able to. Hell, even learning who to scry on can cause casters a lot of difficulty.we had this particular situation in our WotW campaign. The pc had to infiltrate into an enemy base, disable 3 consorts of a dragon, then defeat the dragon. Most players have huge bluff skills. Even the wizard has stealth. The summoner had +45 in diplomacy and bluff. They also have big disguise checks.
It didn't work. Half the guys in the island were able to cast at will Detect Evil, Detect Thought, or both. You'll need magic of some sort (including UMD or magic items).
Magic is like nuvlear weapons. Once one side has, the only possible answer is having them too.
And they run arround with detect thoughts or detect evil all the time? Everyone on the island registers, to detect evil, despite requiring 5th level to have an aura? Why do they cast it in the first place? Unless they suspect something is wrong, they wont cast the spell. You have to be careful arround guards who are actively looking for things, but that is what stealth is for and they shouldn't be randomly checking people in the street. If your doing it right, they shouldn't suspect anything until something is very wrong and your ready to spring your trap. As for hiding magic items, Magic Aura is a first level spell you can trivially put on a wand.
Its the reverse of defeating these types of detection spells with a murder mystery or similar as the GM. Make it so they don't know that to look for.
At the end of the day magic will allow you to accomplish plans faster, easier and with a greater chance of success. There is a place for mundane skills but to assert that they are better than magic (as was done above) is ridiculous.
When did I argue mundane skills were better than magic? I said the could be better, as in situationally.