Hey, I was just reading that module last night. :DAll the players have hats of disguise. They actually deceived the oreads (and then killed them and dominated one). They couldn't do so with the consorts, as 2 of the 3 had constant true seeing.I'm not familiar with the adventure path but:
Disguise self will allow you to be an oreiad. They are class level creatures of neutral alignment, so you can disguise yourself as one and not having an evil aura shouldn't be out of place (unless only high level cultists are there, in which case you should know that and be taking extra precautions). So unless they are cycling through what alignment aura you might have, which takes 3 rounds each, you have no issue.
Great AP, although fights are a bit unoptimized. The King is soooo dissapointing as written...
But the story is golden
Which AP is that by the by?
I may run it or find a game of it some time if it's so good.
With a competent DM, I've never had the problem.Ah, "the rules are fine because the DM can fix them."
Or, "the rules are fine if a DM knows them."
Ok, There goes my example Sorcerer.
Keep in mind that I don't have Hero Lab, so I took a "template" from this thread and changed a few things, so maybe I made a mistake (specially in WBL, which I was doing of the top of my head). Whoever audit it, check those things, and tell me, I'll correct what I might have fumbled.
There you go.
Female Human Crossblooded Draconic/Fey Sorcerer 20
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init ; Senses darkvision 60 ft, See invisibility, Blindsense 60, Perception +30
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Defense Fire Immunity, Immune to Paralysis and Sleep.
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AC 51, touch 20, flat-footed 40(+8 armor, +6 shield, +5 Dex, +9 natural, +5 deflection, +1 luck, +1 insight, +5 defending bonus)
hp 195 (20d6+120) + Empowered False Life
Fort +18, Ref +17, Will +21
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft, Fly 60 ft
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 20):
9 (7/day) Shapechange (b), Mage's disjuntion, Dominate Monster (DC 35)
8 (8/day) Greater Shadow Evocation(DC 30), Moment of Prescience, Maze, Irresistible Dance (DC 34) (b), Polymorph Any Object (DC 30), Greater Planar Binding
7 (8/day) Vision, Greater Shadow Conjuration (DC 29), Spell Turning, Hungry Darkness, Form of the dragon II (b)
6 (8/day) True Seeing, Mislead (b), Flesh to Stone (DC 28), Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Suggestion (DC 32)
5 (8/day) Telekinesis, Feeblemind (DC 33), Teleport, Wall of Force, Spell Resist (b) Sirocco (DC 27) Fickle Winds
4 (9/day) Dragon's Breath (DC 26), Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Confusion (DC 30), Resilient Sphere, Enervation, Cause Fear (b)
3 (9/day) Magic Circle against Evil, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Fly (b) , Haste, Fireball (DC 25),
2 (9/day) glitterdust (DC24), Resist Energy, False Life, Mirror Image, Command Undead (DC 24), Invisibility, spectral hand
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Shield, Grease, Identify, Disguise Self, true strike, Snowball
0 (at will) Arcane Mark, Disrupt Undead, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close Detect Magic, Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 22)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 34
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 31
Feats: Maximize Spell, Intensify, Elemental Spell (cold), Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Perfection (Feeblemind)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Feeblemind), Wayang Spell Hunter (fireball)
Skills: Bluff +36 Intimidate +36, Fly +16, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Perception +30, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +23, Use Magic Device +17
Languages Common, Draconic, fey , Celestial , Ignam, Terram
Equipment: +5 Mithral Spiked Buckler (+5 defending spike), Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Dex and Con) +6, Bracers of armor +8, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 19 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +6, Manual of bodily health +5, , Ring of protection +5, Tome of leadership and influence +5, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, +1 AC ioun stone, +1 CL ioun Stone, Stone of Good Luck, Mnemonic Vestment x2, Scroll of Contingency, Scroll of Time Stop, Scroll of Mind Blank, Lesser Rod of Empower x3, Gloves of Storing, Master's Staff of Necromancy, Efficient Quiver, Lesser Rod of Quickening , Rod of Silent Spell
I didn't get any of the ussual cheese offenders (simulacrum, blood money, explosive runes, animate dead, animate object, etc) except for Plannar Binding, which is just too cool to have with a huge CHA, and it can be kept under control just with Gentlemen's Agreement (ie: no chainbinding efreets for infinite wishes and other sheanigangs) Also left out the emergency Sphere, for similar reasons
Few tricks:
Versus other spellcasters, the key spell is Feeble Mind. She can cast a DC 38 (including the -5) Persistent quickened Feeblemind as a 8th level spell, ussually after a MAximized Enervation as 8th level spell. That means 2 DC 42 Will saves in a row, of combat ends, except contingencies (pun intended). Other option (with different feats) is casting a Heightened 9th level persistent (through the staff) Feeblemind, with DC 40, after a quickened maximized (with the staff) Enervation, for two DC 44 will saves, or combat ends.
Some other nice tricks: vs Fighter types, DC 35 Dominate Monster (which can be combined with a quickened Cause Fear for the -2 to saves shake, or with Enervation)
Irresistible Dance + Quickened Spectral Hand means instant victory, even if Save is made.
Vs brute guys with low Reflex: Hungry Darkness + Quickened Resilient Sphere, or just Maze.
Vs guys with low Fort: Flesh to stone (although normally a Feeblemind is better vs those)
Vs big groups: Wall of Force, Confusion, Resilient Sphere + Hungry Darkness, Mass Suggestion, etc.
Against the Mind affecting Immune creatures (assuming I can't use Command Undead), I can use fireball.
Maximized Intensified Empowered (rod) Fireball do 105+1/2(15d6+15) as 6th level spell. Combining it with a quickened Intensifed Empowered (rod) fireball as 7th lvel spell that does 1.5*(15d6+15), it means an average of 240 damage in 20' radious. You could swap it to cold damage if needed. It's not Martial Level damage, but it's not bad for a backup weapon.
Against weapon-users, Quickened True Strike + Telekinesis does wonders. It also work as grapple and bull rush in some circumstances.
In the deffesive Side: I have 51 AC, not couting Cover (from an interposing hand or similar effect casted with Shadow Conjruation or Shadow Evocation). That means 55 AC with cover, so the Tarrasque need 18+ to hit me, Moment of Prescience not withstanding. I can also ignore a crit or sneak per day, so I think my melee defense is decently covered. My Mirror Images, with AC 46/51, last for a lot, actually. Fickle Winds protects vs arrows. Spell Turning helps vs spells. Mage's Disjunction help to Unbuff people.
I'm inmune to Divination (great combo with Greater Invisibility) if I use a Mnemonic Vestment+Mindblank Scroll, I can fly naturally, I'm fire immune, have Blindsense, paralysis immunity, good perception, a few decent skills, most bases covered.
I only took 2 mnemonic Vestment, and a few Scrolls. The Wardrobe of Mnemonic Vestments is quite cheesy too, so I kept it to a minimum.
I removed one of the Inherent bonus books to make room for some funky stuff like scrolls. I'm pretty sure I can squeeze a bit more the WBL, but it's just fine for a quick experiment I think.
Now tell me what you think about it, Ciretose.
Which AP is that by the by?
I may run it or find a game of it some time if it's so good.
Way of the Wicked. Evil AP of a bunch of Asmodeans followers that flee from a prison, engage against a LG theocracy, and conquer the world.
Very sandboxy in general (with a few obvious rail roads in some parts, specially in the begining to put everybody in the same boat against the LG guys), it goes up to 20th level. I'm quite happy with it, although I had to upgrade most the NPC, which were somewhat terrible, specially the high level ones.
Oh yeah. I've wanted to play in Way of the Wicked for a while.
LE is my favorite alignment.
Rynjin, if I put together a PBP for it I will let you know.
=D
Also I am not certain but I dont think you have accounted for knowing 1 less spell due to crossblooded.
I think I did, unless I fumbled ^^
Did you count the Bloodline bonus spell? And the human favored class bonus?
Defending doesnt apply unless you are attacking with the weapon.
Are you sure of that? Never have seen it in the FAQ, and the description certainly doesn't say so
Yep it came up years ago and annoyed many people. No idea where to find it now.Defending doesnt apply unless you are attacking with the weapon.Are you sure of that? Never have seen it in the FAQ, and the description certainly doesn't say so
Oh.
Well, assumming that's official, It means the Tarrasque can hit me with a 13 now :(. Fortunatelly I fly :P. I guess I pass the basic AC exams, though (Balors still hit me with 20s)I suppose I could spend that WBL somewhere. Like having extra HP. Or maybe raising DEX for a bit more AC and Initiative.
On defences you have dropped the rod of absorption which in my opinion is about the most important item at high level as it renders you immune to many of the instant death or removal spells. Its one of the reasons why I dont rate metamagic combat rods at high level, you dont have enough hands for both and to cast spells.
Yes, I know. Rod of Absorption is one of those things I ussually left aside in gentemen's agreement. Otherwise, it ends being fight where everybody that matters have one :P.
I could buy one with the money saved I suppose. The gloves of storing help to swap them when needed (efficient quiver allow to free quickdraw them too)I still have one ring free too, etc. As I said, I didn't make it exhaustively, specially gear, cause I don't have Herolab and doing 20th level chars is not fun. The important part, however, is that it is a very tough character, really hard to kill, which can force near-impossible saves, control the battlefield, and when everything else fails, create havoc doing 200+ damage per round in 20' radious. While still having several adventure-trumping stuff, and the ability to gain more through Mnemonic Vestment and scrolls.
Calibrate those expectations. A Wizard that can Energy Drain and quickened Ennervate is intended to be the same level of threat as that posed by the Balor. A Balor isn't supposed to be a scary monster to high level characters, its supposed to be a CR appropriate speed bump.
A CR 20 demon isn't supposed to be scary to level 17 and 18 characters? Ok. If Paizo is going by that logic, then I guess they succeeded. A Balor is a speed bump to characters that level. A 2nd level spell renders domination a useless ability. If they spend a time trying to dispel it, they're probably dead given the damage output of the players.
Not exactly how I like my balors. I'm not the game designer.
In a game that is based off levels... why would something that is CR 20 be any more frightening to Levels 17-18 than a CR 5 would be for Level 2-3? I mean a high level Wizard isn't just some random dude, he's a being that is very intentionally on par with high CR enemies.
A CR 20 demon isn't supposed to be scary to level 17 and 18 characters? Ok. If Paizo is going by that logic, then I guess they succeeded. A Balor is a speed bump to characters that level. A 2nd level spell renders domination a useless ability. If they spend a time trying to dispel it, they're probably dead given the damage output of the players.Not exactly how I like my balors. I'm not the game designer.
The game is designed with the assumption that level 15+ characters are nearly demigods in their own right. A Balor is a creature that can lay waste to nations and power unholy religions.
The PCs are supposed to be the only people able to take these things on. It's not like Forgotten Realms where you have people with 20 levels in PC classes everywhere, they're rare.
And he's not a mere "speed bump" either.
Because higher cr creatures have a far wider range of screw you powers thanlow cr ones. A level 3 considering taking on a cave filled with ogres mostly just has to worry about darkness and damage. A level 17 thinking about taking on a pit fiend has to worry about save or die effects.
Yes, but higher level PCs also have the resources to protect against Screw You powers and furthermore high level PCs have similar (probably greater) screw you powers to the high CR creatures. And lets be realistic, at high levels death itself is a speed bump.
Because higher cr creatures have a far wider range of screw you powers thanlow cr ones. A level 3 considering taking on a cave filled with ogres mostly just has to worry about darkness and damage. A level 17 thinking about taking on a pit fiend has to worry about save or die effects.
at 3, the ogres don't have to worry about much more than being hit by a pointy stick. The balor knows he is going to be hit with a lot of stuff. I'm with anzyr here. A CR 20 vs APL 18 isn't very fifferent than CR5 vs APL3
I follow the rules when I make a character so if there is some rule that says you need to have the component at all steps I truly would like to see it.
From the PRD: "To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)."
If your material component disappears in the first round of a multi-round casting, you are unable to manipulate that material component in later rounds, and are thus unable to spend those rounds casting that unfinished spell. Per the quoted rule, the only way it is physically possible to cast a multi-round spell with a material component is if that component is expended when you finish casting that spell.
A CR 20 demon isn't supposed to be scary to level 17 and 18 characters? Ok. If Paizo is going by that logic, then I guess they succeeded. A Balor is a speed bump to characters that level. A 2nd level spell renders domination a useless ability. If they spend a time trying to dispel it, they're probably dead given the damage output of the players.Not exactly how I like my balors. I'm not the game designer.
The game is designed with the assumption that level 15+ characters are nearly demigods in their own right. A Balor is a creature that can lay waste to nations and power unholy religions.
The PCs are supposed to be the only people able to take these things on. It's not like Forgotten Realms where you have people with 20 levels in PC classes everywhere, they're rare.
And he's not a mere "speed bump" either.
A Balor is a speed bump to a high level party. I've run them against my players. They take him out with almost no damage done.
They have defenses that render them immune to his special abilities, one of them called Protection from Evil which is very easy to catch. Fire Resistance covers his aura. Fly spells render his ability to move about useless. His DR is generally rendered useless by high enhancement weapons. It doesn't matter than much anyway because high level buffed melee types rolling five attacks a round with at least one crit between two melees does enough damage to render his DR a moot point. One holy word by the cleric generally eliminate lower level demonic minions with that pesky Will save at -4 or be banished.
Implosion can be somewhat dangerous if he decides to spend his standard action to cast that. Even that spell is generally a nuisance easily countered with a single heal at the level you're fighting Balors.
I will give you this. If the Balor caught one of the party members alone, he would waste them. A single Balor is more powerful than most PCs by themselves at that level save for perhaps a powerful 9th level spells caster run by an experienced player.
Paizo put in the game a whole lot of defensive abilities that make these powerful creatures weak. Freedom of movement makes all grappling/constrict creatures weak. Resist Energy renders energy damage useless. Protection from Evil renders most domination/charm abilities useless. Holy Word or the like gets rid of all those pesky summoned/called creatures. You can actually build up a cleric/oracle to the point where they have a Holy Word ten levels higher than their level. Let's just say it makes Power Word Kill look like a joke.
Balor's are just not tough for experienced players. Very few high level monsters are due to that thing we call action economy and versatiilty. Players have more actions as a group than their enemies and far more powerful and versatile options than monsters.
As a player it's cool to jack up someone's campaign. As a DM it's not real fun to hve the Jabberwock, Great Wyrm Dragon, or Balor running from the adventuring party knowing it has no chance. You start to wonder how dragon boy even ended up living as long he did given how much more powerful mortal adventurers are than him.
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This isn't a zero-sum thing.
1. Good rules + Good DM = Good game.
2. Bad rules + Good DM = Good game.
3. Good rules + Bad DM = Mediocre game.
4. Bad Rules + Bad DM = Lousy game.There's no reason we shouldn't strive for #1, and strive to avoid #4, except for all the people who are convinced that, in fact, the rules as written are perfect and cannot be improved in any way -- and as "evidence" of this they repeatedly present Case #2 as an anecdote.
I agree it isn't zero sum, but you are making a black and white argument that makes the perfect the enemy of the good.
Either they are good rules or bad rules is like saying "Either you are good or evil, and so if you do anything evil ever, you must be burned."
The reality is some things in the game are up to GM adjudication because they are there for story purposes. Planar Binding comes to mind. They are vague to allow flexibility, so if you want a demon, etc...you can say the BBEG used "X" spell and it worked...because.
No one is saying the rules are perfect. What many of us are saying is that where the rules are imperfect we should be saying "That seems broken" rather than "LOOK AT THE SIZE OF MAH E-PEEN, ONLY CRUEL GMS CAN STOP MAH AWESOME, YET CONSPICUOUSLY SELECTIVE, READING SKILLZ!!!!"
Upthread a problem spell was pointed out. I have entire threads devoted to discussing problem spells, combinations, etc...so they can be brought to the Devs attention to hopefully be addressed.
And yet there are still people arguing bloody money works in a way they fully admit is broken, despite the person who wrote the book blood money is in saying it doesn't work that way.
That is the problem. People who think they actually "win" when they find loopholes and exploits and GM's who don't have the backbone to say "Stop being that guy" who allow it.
No the game isn't perfect. No game is perfect. But there is a clear separation between the people who are saying "Hey, lets find problems so we can address them" and "Hey look at all these things I can do because I'm awesome and can break the game...what, it totally works like that and how dare you say it doesn't or try to get people to fix it, that was what the Devs wanted, and you are dumb if you don't know that Mr. Poopyface!"
Huh, I didn't know that effect had a name. Neat!
Ya, I take heart from the fact that anyone reading his posts and my responses to them will see that he clearly didn't 1. read my sheet, 2. read any of the spells, and 3. when that failed said "Nope to Cheesy".
The sad thing is that is not even the Level 20 version of Hex, nor is it designed to show "Look at how strong X is at 9th." I find such builds unconvincing personally, since they don't really show progression. Hex clearly has feats that won't matter until higher level (Heighten/Dazing Spell, he has plans for those) and his item selection is stuff that for the most part he won't have to replace later on.
While I've submitted the Blood Money on spells greater then 1 round issue to the FAQ, even if that is ruled to not work, it won't affect Hex's core tactic in the least. (I still think material components are consumed immediately, I'd like to see one of the people who think otherwise say that they'd let someone who gets interrupted in the middle of casting Raise Dead get keep their 5,000 GP diamond).
The funniest thing is... even if Blood Money doesn't work with spells with a casting time of greater than 1 round, the level 20 version of Hex can nonetheless keep most of his tactics. Blood Money plus Wish will still get me access to Simulacrums of myself, Permanent Spells and Permanent Symbols (Up to 10,000 GP in value). The biggest changes are that I'd have to spend a pittance (22,500) GP to make his Demiplane, Greater Permanent and rely more on Clones created with Wish + Blood Money, then on Astral Projection, which makes death just very slightly more annoying.
(Waits for someone to prove they haven't read the thread by asking how I can get to 51 STR.)
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Of course the fact that the dev specifically said you can't use blood money for any spell that takes more than one round to cast.
That part is kind of important, don't you think?
Also, I don't think the word "duplicate" means what you think it means...
JJ rule question thread is not the rules of game or an FAQ. Even he did not have a hard position citing both version as fine as long as used consistently. I guess in a game run by JJ it'd be a good to use Blood Money with a standard action spell.... like Wish.
The only thing I can assume from that incredibly vague comment on what "duplicate" is that you think despite Wish being a Standard Action to cast it duplicates a spell by then going on to cast that other spell taking the normal time. That sounds like nonsense to me, but even if that's true Wish is explicitly a Standard Action which was paid with Blood Money which is unarguably valid is now covering the cost of the duplicated spell (up to 10,000 gp in value more then enough).
Under that interpretation we'd have the situation of:
Round 1: Standard Action - Cast Wish - Wish finishes casting.
Round 2: Wish duplicates the spell by casting it even that spell is a standard action.
This makes no sense. (But would still work with Blood Money)
That being said the above interpretation is complete nonsense. Wish duplicates everything the lower level spell does in 1 Standard Action. Lets look at the text.
Wish
School universal; Level sorcerer/wizard 9; Bloodline arcane 9
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)
EFFECT
Range see text
Target, Effect, Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw none, see text; Spell Resistance yes
Well then it looks Wish has variables in Range, Target, Effect, Area and Saving Throw and we need to see the text. Note the one thing that we don't need to see the text on is the casting time.
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
Well huh that looks like the casting Wish produces the effect, which as stated takes a standard action. Lets look at the "effects".
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
So the effect of wish is to duplicate a spell, since Wish takes a standard action to cast and this fact is not variable, the effect takes one standard action. The other factors that are variable become those of the duplicated spell.
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And yet there are still people arguing bloody money works in a way they fully admit is broken, despite the person who wrote the book blood money is in saying it doesn't work that way.
I was largely ignoring that whole side conversation, partly because I have no idea what "blood money" is and couldn't be bothered to look it up, and because there are far more obvious examples in the Core Rulebook.
You mentioned planar binding. Yes, you can allow it, but the way it's written and implemented is, quite frankly, terrible. (It's not currently "good" and I'm here striving for "perfect," the way you've painted it.) Rather, the RAW themselves are written so that stuff like chain-binding efreet is almost a common-sense end result of actually reading the rules. Likewise with control of undead being measured in HD instead of total CR. WTF?
Imagine if instead those two things were set up something more like: "You can control a total CR worth of summoned creatures equal to f(x)," where f is a function and x is your caster level and/or Charisma modifier, "and no single creature of CR > your caster level -3. If you exceed that limit, the balance immediately become uncontrolled and may immediately attack you according to X, Y, and Z" (depending on alignment and so on). Same with undead, with a note that your controlled undeads' spawn still count against your limit (hell, putting a hard cap on spawn is a common-sense thing to do, to explain why there aren't whole nations of nothing but incorporeal undead). And, finally, set a rule capping your effective caster level at your total HD, regardless of what kind of crap you're trying to stack.
This type of fix is relatively simple to implement, removes ambiguity, still allows summoned monsters and controlled undead while keeping you from spamming the battlefield with summoned monsters, and it prevents whole avalanches of abuse. By the same token, counting dormant symbols and stuff against your consumed spell slots and/or wealth (as if they were magic traps, and priced accordingly) would put an end to a whole lot of easy shenanigans as well.
Why wasn't it written that way? Because the designers can't get their heads out of Story Hour mode, and during the Alpha and Beta they actively discouraged destructive playtesting to find broken things. If something didn't work, but they didn't happen to be doing it in their office games, they didn't want to know about it. That's also why casters in general still totally overshadow martials if played using their full capacities -- even ignoring stupid corner-cases like blood money or whatever -- because the designers always play them as support, and don't use 90% of the stuff they can do. And the Core Rules are bad enough in this regard without needing to get into splats.
That's not "good," it's fairly lousy for anyone who doesn't share the designers' mind set exactly. You might, but not everyone does. And it would be straightforward to make things so that a wider swath of the fan base is supported, and so that the rules themselves reflect the way you actually play the game, instead of being tangential to it.
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(I still think material components are consumed immediately, I'd like to see one of the people who think otherwise say that they'd let someone who gets interrupted in the middle of casting Raise Dead get keep their 5,000 GP diamond).
They could keep whatever was left, but it would be worth less than when they started. If they were interrupted halfway through they would have a 2500GP diamond.
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@Kirth - As I said in the post, there are spells that are included for story reasons that require a lot of GM adjudication, but if closed,well...close a lot of story options.
How did the BBEG get that demon you want the party to fight, for example.
I agree 100% that there should be a risk mechanic in high powered spells, and I have advocated for it heavily in other threads. I think mechanically and thematically the removal of danger from magic is a mistake and I would fully advocate for dire consequences and spells where failure as an option can't be removed.
That would allow the spells to exist for story purposes (the BBEG was successful) but make them very, very risky for players.
I think the proper balance is to understand magic is going to be more powerful, but that the users of magic need to be vulnerable and putting themselves at high risk.
The limiting factor on magic can, and should be how many casters blow themselves up.
But people whine about punitive...
Again, I'm not opposed to labling spells as broken. I am however, very much opposed to the idea that every broken combination someone thinks they can rationalize out of a ruleset is a mistake by the devs rather than the impossible to eliminate creative reading section of the game.
Who the Devs also want to buy books.
There is always a fine line between offering options (which are good) and allowing abuse.
I think that what I've seen posted in this thread (with the exception of the emergency force shield which is clearly a badly written spell) came from abusive reading rather than abusive writing.
And I agree about playtesting, which is why I say we need a new version not written in crisis and under the duress of the potential collaspe of the company.
Example:
A wish duplicates a Clone spell by copying the everything the spell does except the Casting Time (because this is not variable). Thus, Wish duplicating Clone would have the Range, Target, Effect, Area and Saving Throw of Clone.
Such a casting of Wish would look like so:
Wish (Duplicating Clone)
School universal; Level sorcerer/wizard 9; Bloodline arcane 9
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)
EFFECT
Range 0 ft.
Effect one clone
Duration Instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature...[rest of clone here].
See its pretty easy to figure out when you read the spell.
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So it duplicates everything except the parts you don't want it to duplicate.
Why am I not surprised that you think it duplicates everything but the parts you don't want it to duplicate...'
EDIT: I don't supposed you have any reasoning to back up why it duplicates everything but the parts you don't want it to duplicate, do you?
Wish explicitly has a casting time of 1 Standard Action - not see text as it has for Range, Target, Effect, Area and Saving Throw. It duplicates everything that is it has variables for. Care to explain how you think it works? Because like I said the only other way is that Wish finishes casting and then Wish itself duplicates the other by casting it next round.
Edit: Yes, it explicitly has a casting time of 1 standard action and it it explicitly produces the effect of duplicating the spell. Since it only takes a Standard Action to cast Wish and this effect is produced by Wish, the effect is thus produced once Wish finishes casting, which again... takes a standard action. The only other way that works is if as I said above it duplicates the effect by casting the spell after Wish finishes casting, which is obviously not the case.
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I think it can be used to duplicate the spell.
I think when you duplicate the spell, you duplicate the spell.
Which...is what it says. You can cast that spell. It doesn't say "Duplicates the effects of the spell", it says duplicate the spell, as in you can cast that spell, as it is, not as you want it to be.
You are arguing it duplicates everything in the spell, except stuff you don't want it to duplicate.
Why would the burden be on me when you are arguing for the exception?
Because the casting time is explicitly "Casting Time 1 standard action". You are arguing that the spell is wrong about its casting time or do you believe the spell does not say this? Please note, it is not 1 standard action; see text. It is just 1 standard action. Under your scenario do I duplicate the spell after Wish finishes casting in 1 standard action? Is that your argument?
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You use wish to duplicate the spell. Whatever the spells says it requires, it requires. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).
Why?
Because you are duplicating the spell. You aren't replacing the spell, you aren't duplicating it's effects.
You are duplicating the spell. Whatever the spell requires, you still have to do.
@Kirth - This is exactly what I am talking about. The most interesting concept in years was the summoner. And it was largely impossible because of stuff like this.
The developer can literally appear and say as spell doesn't work that way, and people will argue that the page says otherwise because they want it to work that way.
I work in the courts and so I know words can be twisted and manipulated any which way you like. Perfect RAW clarity is an unachievable goal because someone will say "It doesn't SAY dead characters can't take actions..."
I agree with most of your concerns, I salute your homebrew, but the only way any ruleset isn't going to be weaseled comes from the GM saying "That is ridiculous and you know that wasn't the intent. Stop it or find another table."
This whole gentleman's agreement statement is absurd. If I have to enter into a gentleman's agreement with you to not try and manipulate the rules, that tells me your natural state is to try and manipulate the rules.
And so why the hell would I want to game with you?
So your evidence is how you interpret the word duplicate even though it is at odds with the actual casting time of the spell, which I again stress unlike Range, Target, Effect, Area and Saving Throw is not "See text". Until you can square your argument with that fact, you really do not have much of a case.
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Uh huh...
FAQ that one too. I'm sure the Devs fully intended to make Wish work to be able to cast spells that take hours in a single action. I bet right now they are reading along and thinking "I know James Jacob specifically said what he was trying to do doesn't work, and I know the meaning of the word duplicate, but gosh darn it I want to have huge exploits in the game for fun!"
Duplicate that spell. Not duplicate the effects.
But again, please keep this up. I need more links for when people in other threads say "No one would argue for that."
Actually it was the general consensus here. And you are misreading Wish, wish says it can produce the effect of duplicating a spell - which you'll note is in line for have its effect range as "see text".
I'm sorry you don't like the way the rules are written and that you seem to think to using the spell as it is written is somehow an "abuse". I do think I will ask James about using Wish to duplicate a spell with a casting time of longer then one action though, after all... reducing that to a single standard action is perfectly fair when the cost is 25,000 gp.
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The reality is some things in the game are up to GM adjudication because they are there for story purposes. Planar Binding comes to mind. They are vague to allow flexibility, so if you want a demon, etc...you can say the BBEG used "X" spell and it worked...because.
If that's the intent, then the designers should declare it to be a Story Ability. Mark it as GM-only, NPC-only, Monster-only, and get it off the PC spell lists.
Make it a scenario-specific ritual, with GM-set limits on the timing ("The stars must be right!"), the location ("The name of Bal-Shalhoqoglobloq must be uttered on the altar of the Crypt of The Nameless Ones"), and who is even allowed to attempt it ("Only those of the bloodline of the Lost Kingdom of Mu may be heard by the beast!").
Published scenarios are full of this stuff. But it becomes ridiculous, when every scenario has the PCs allowed to saunter through it, safe in the knowledge that the writer has decided the BBEG's plan will never come close to completion until all the PCs have spent as long as they like, crafting, scrying and buffing.
Funny how the ritual is always a minute away from completion, no matter when the PCs decide they can be bothered to enter the last room, eh?
And a player always asks "They've been at this plan to call their dark lord for years. Why didn't they just cast Gate?".
And there's no reason that makes a damn bit of sense, other than "The writers decided the genius-level opposition would play with both hands tied behind their backs".
In the same way that only NPCs ever seem to interact in any meaningful way with their society, are the only ones to build lairs, mazes and castles (all PCs being wandering orphan murder-hobos), only NPCs should benefit from story-based rituals such as Planar Binding.
Maybe the conditions for Planar Binding should be the possession of a long-term immobile structure, of the kind that a PC will never build, since they're always carrying every copper piece of their WBL on their backs?
Because. . .during the Alpha and Beta the[ designers] actively discouraged destructive playtesting to find broken things. If something didn't work, but they didn't happen to be doing it in their office games, they didn't want to know about it.
O.o
If this is true that's horrible; it's the exact opposite of what Alpha & Beta testing should be. The purpose of such testing is to find points of failure.*
So if that's true, I'm officially appalled.
o.O <--- me. Also me ---> O.o
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The whole point of 3.5 is that anything the enemy equivilent of you can do, you can do.
One of the main complaints of 4E was that players and the GM were playing by different rules in some ways. In 3.5 you are both rolling dice under the same rules, with the same restrictions.
I would love for more spells to have more restrictions, and while many problems from 3.5 were fixed, losing the XP penalities added to the problems of some spells.
At the end of the day, I want the BBEG to be able to summon demons and such. And I want the players to be able to do so as well.
But I want it to be a difficult and dangerous thing, at all levels. I think the opportunity for campaigns to evolve out of failed arcane experiments is a wonderful playground.
I don't honestly know why this isn't fleshed out more. What if these problem spells had an unavoidable spell failure risk that would cause the demon to be released, or the simularcrum to turn on you?
Right now it is implied in the fluff, but only enforced by "GM fiat" for reasons I honestly don't get.
Just adding something as simple as a spell failure chart with no way to completely make certain spells safe would both add to the game and correct a good number of these concerns.
Maybe next edition...
@Anzyr - You cite random people on the internet but dismiss a dev...it is almost as if you really are only seeking affirmation of your reading...odd...
FAQ it.
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Because. . .during the Alpha and Beta the[ designers] actively discouraged destructive playtesting to find broken things. If something didn't work, but they didn't happen to be doing it in their office games, they didn't want to know about it.O.o
If this is true that's horrible; it's the exact opposite of what Alpha & Beta testing should be. The purpose of such testing is to find points of failure.
So if that's true, I'm officially appalled.
o.O <--- me. Also me ---> O.o
Again, remember the context.
WoTC pulled the rug out from under all the 3PP. The last thing Paizo wanted was a lot of bad mouthing of the 3.5 system they were trying to save in the face of a new edition coming out.
I think having an honest dialog about the flaws of the 3.5 is something that can happen now, but back then they were trying to make the case that you should stay with a 3.5 variant in the face of a new, non-compatible, 3PP unfriendly DnD version.
And if they failed to make that case, they would go out of buisness.
I can see why they would try and quell dissent.
Snorter "gets" it 100%. The rules of the game should lead, as a logical consequence, to the type of game world you're constantly trying to portray. If they lead helter-skelter in the opposite direction, it means the rules are not well-suited to the type of scenario they're being used for. And if those types of scenarios are, in fact, at the end of the day, what you want (and Paizo's APs and other work would lead me to believe that they are) -- then that means the rules themselves are poorly-written for that task.
Telling the DM, "Here are rules that lead to point X. You want to go to point Y, which is nowhere near there. Have fun" is not a good setup. "Here are rules that are written so that, as a logical consequence, you get near Y," is better. It's not impossible -- no one expects them to provide a perfect road-map, but they should at least point you in the right direction!