Question to GMs: Have you really ever had an issue with the so called "GOD" wizard?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've seen it first hand. I have no issue with it. It's a thing of great power and beauty, like a star.

I think to have issue with it one must first have an issue with players doing productive things.


Weird, where'd the OP go?


no need for a OP, the question is still valid. i seen it tried: however no number spell slots could account for everything. also i knew what he prepared mohahaha


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A wizard cast a spell and made it vanish, I suspect.

Anyway, having not actually seen the OP, but assuming that the question in the title pretty much covers it, I too have seen one, and no, it it wasn't (indeed isn't) a problem. Yep, he can so almost anything... after he's rested and prepared spells. Now how on Earth can a GM work around that, I wonder?

1) Be aware that the wizard can do pretty much anything he wants.
2) Be even more aware that time pressure is the "God Wizard's" natural weakness.
3) Make sure that events drive the pace of the campaign, not player actions.
4) Pay strict attention to the spells he has on scrolls.

Do those 4 things and the so-called God Wizard is no more disruptive than the Barbarian that can one-shot the Tarrasque.

Scarab Sages

I've seen it. I've done it.

The fighter and barbarian caused more issues.


Ashiel wrote:
Weird, where'd the OP go?

The OP is an Invisible Webstalker?

Liberty's Edge

I agree. This mythical beast only exists in legends...because though it can do Anything. It cannot do Everything. And to be that mythical he had to go through many levels of being a nobody. :D


What was the definition of a God wizard again? Was it a battlefield controller? Or was it a 'Schroedinger's wizard' who has prepared exactly the right spell for every situation?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

The only issues I've seen in play with a utility/battlefield control wizard, the classic Treantmonk "god" wizard, is that when played poorly they lock down the battlefield for both friendly and enemy combatants. Fightys tend not to like it when sleet storm keeps them from killing the bad guys, and chargys hate stone call most anytime.


Matthew Downie wrote:
What was the definition of a God wizard again? Was it a battlefield controller? Or was it a 'Schroedinger's wizard' who has prepared exactly the right spell for every situation?

A controller/buffer/debuffer, patterned after this very influential guide.


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Quite frankly Trentmonk's guide is how to play a reasonably fair Wizard. The only reason people don't see how truly overpowered the Wizard can be is due to a number of reasons that I'll list in order of likeliness that you haven't seen a Wizard that tells the universe to go play in the corner while the grown-ups are talking.

1. System Mastery - Most people don't have the system mastery to play an all powerful wizard. I mean ya its cool to have infinite Simulacrums without impacting your wealth by level, but be honest how many people that play do you think know how to do that?

2. Gentleman's Agreement - Once we realize how limited the number of players with the system mastery to play an all power wizard is, we have to take into account Gentleman's Agreements. Sure I could sit down at my friends game and play a Wizard that obviates everything he prepared, but you know what'd that make me? A jerk. Most players who have the requisite system mastery realize this and thus opt not to show up to a game with a character who can say "A God am I" and be completely correct.

3. Level of Game - Let me preface this by being perfectly clear about something... low level wizards are still very strong. But most players do not play games at the highest of levels where the Wizard reaches the zenith of his arbitrary power. If Wizards at the tables you play are only making it to 12th level or so... your missing 8 levels of quadratic power.

4. Houserules - When people talk about the all powerful Wizard, their talking about the kind of Wizard that you can play with the rules that are in the books. That being said, please note that just because a GM can say "Sorry Anzyr, even though the rules let you make infinite Simulacrums of yourself, in my game you can't." does not make Wizard any weaker. The very fact that you need to houserule that (or preferably get a Gentlemen's Agreement) indicates that the class is so strong that you need to change the rules to accommodate it.

5. Fun - I had originally intended to place this higher on the list, but its subjective so I ended up throwing it here. The last reason you don't see all-powerful wizards is because quite frankly its not much fun to play one. Half the fun of the game is knowing that the outcome of a fight depends on the falling of a few dice and well... all powerful wizards don't play dice. Playing the game with the certainty that you will always win gets pretty boring as anyone who has played a game on "god mode" can tell you.


Anzyr wrote:

Quite frankly Trentmonk's guide is how to play a reasonably fair Wizard. The only reason people don't see how truly overpowered the Wizard can be is due to a number of reasons that I'll list in order of likeliness that you haven't seen a Wizard that tells the universe to go play in the corner while the grown-ups are talking.

1. System Mastery - Most people don't have the system mastery to play an all powerful wizard. I mean ya its cool to have infinite Simulacrums without impacting your wealth by level, but be honest how many people that play do you think know how to do that?

2. Gentleman's Agreement - Once we realize how limited the number of players with the system mastery to play an all power wizard is, we have to take into account Gentleman's Agreements. Sure I could sit down at my friends game and play a Wizard that obviates everything he prepared, but you know what'd that make me? A jerk. Most players who have the requisite system mastery realize this and thus opt not to show up to a game with a character who can say "A God am I" and be completely correct.

3. Level of Game - Let me preface this by being perfectly clear about something... low level wizards are still very strong. But most players do not play games at the highest of levels where the Wizard reaches the zenith of his arbitrary power. If Wizards at the tables you play are only making it to 12th level or so... your missing 8 levels of quadratic power.

4. Houserules - When people talk about the all powerful Wizard, their talking about the kind of Wizard that you can play with the rules that are in the books. That being said, please note that just because a GM can say "Sorry Anzyr, even though the rules let you make infinite Simulacrums of yourself, in my game you can't." does not make Wizard any weaker. The very fact that you need to houserule that (or preferably get a Gentlemen's Agreement) indicates that the class is so strong that you need to change the rules to accommodate it.

5. Fun - I had originally intended to place this...

I, and 1 other player in our home games, are no longer allowed to play wizards. After a few games it became clear we didn't need the party unless the adventuring day went more than 10 encounters. As such wizards tend to be rare at our tables. This post encapsulates wizards to me. Either they're so powerful due to system mastery that breaking the game takes effort to prevent or they're not so broken but still powerful.


I played Kendra Lorrimor as a high level diviner in the final book of Carrion Crown recently. I played her as a God wizard lite. Aka, I buffed the party and never stole the show. Honestly, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and found myself surprised at the potency of spells like Tiny Hut and Battering Blast. Seriously, those two spells, (especially in tandem!) were clutch for the majority of that AP and proved to be worth their weight in wands for the final encounter(s).

Most people who play God wizards are team players. Yes, I'm going out on a limb stating this, but so far I've seen no complaints about "show stealing/stopping" wizards sucking the fun out for everyone.


Ive seen it a couple of times in 3.5 though they had heavily used prestige classes to boost the already powerful base wizard. One used Transmutation and a spell I cant recall (I called it the toe spell) that allowed him to hide a part of his body away to become immune to death basically. He had craft contingency and was impossible to kill.

The other was a Mindbender who used a Charm Person with Contagious Metamagic and Chain Metamagic to become loved and worshiped enough to gain a divine rank and become an actual GOD. He of course was told by the DM if he cast the spell that it would work but that his character would become an NPC. He did it anyways cause its what his character would do. It had something to do with the Mindbender having an everlasting effect on people even after his charm spells faded away... they still REALLY like him. So the chain + contagious Meta caused it to go viral and he had ALOT of followers.

I have yet to see it in a PF game but I would assume while harder to pull off its not impossible.


There's a difference between locking down all the monsters for the fighter to turn into a gooey paste, and whatever the hell that simulacrum cheese is (never heard of it, but not surprised that simulacrum can be abused).

In terms of high-level spells that need some work, Polymorph any object needs a serious redesign. I had an idea for that particular one.

Another spell that has problems is MMM. Creating the mansion is only a standard action. That makes it an in-combat spell. If you have Shot on the Run or Spring Attack, it's an I-Win button. This spell needs to take 1 minute to cast.

Scry'n'Die also becomes a problem, as vision, greater teleport, and greater scrying allow the player to home in on their foes (all of which are 11th level and above by this point) even if they barely know who they are, scry on them, and immediately teleport to their location and bring the entire party along with no chance of error.

At 15th level and above, easy access to these spells gives control of the campaign pacing to the wizard.

To combat this, almost every 4-encounter day should be a race against the clock. If you quit after 1 encounter, the whole dungeon will be covered in a dimensional lock or forbiddance spell the next day.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I so no problems, really. Like all resource-based classes,, they'll run out of them eventually. Sure you can summon monsters. As the DM i have this neat little SLA called "summon NPCs."

All kidding aside though, I've never had trouble with wizards. And if you wanna get creative with one of my favorite concepts, go for it. I want to see you pull off a Harry Dresden. Prepare for the apocalypse...then pull crazy ridiculousness out of your ass.

To quote Adventure Time: "Wizards rule."


Wizards are squishy.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Shadowborn wrote:
Wizards are squishy.

Not system mastery wizards. They are some of the least squishy characters around!

Scarab Sages

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Undone wrote:
I, and 1 other player in our home games, are no longer allowed to play wizards. After a few games it became clear we didn't need the party unless the adventuring day went more than 10 encounters. As such wizards tend to be rare at our tables. This post encapsulates wizards to me. Either they're so powerful due to system mastery that breaking the game takes effort to prevent or they're not so broken but still powerful.

I was barred from playing wizards once.

After playing a fighter for a while, it was requested that I stick to wizards.


Shadowborn wrote:
Wizards are squishy.

Real wizards do not die when they are killed (Astral Projection). Furthermore thanks to Clone and Blood Money, if you for some reason feel the need to off your self 8 times before breakfast you'll still be alright. Lets not forget that for every day that goes by for non-Wizards you get a free day to prep buffs with a hour/lv duration so you have free slots the next day. And since you have that whole day to yourself in your own plane of existence might as well restock up on the essentials like Explosive Runes, Permanency combined with various Symbols (nothing quite like Ni Save or Dies to the start encounter, read the rules on extending casting time to exclude people and make sure to go whole hog with heighten). But yes... aside from all of that... Wizards are squishy.


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That reminds me of why I like Cacodaemons either as a familiar or through the spell Summon Cacodaemon.

Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars. Go directly to Abaddon.

Dark Archive

The answer is "No", but I've never played campaigns in the highest of levels. I've actually looked at most wizards and wondered what all the hype was about. This was actually going to be a question I was going to pose on the forums too; theorycrafted wizards seem like they should be amazing, but either the players I have been with don't do it right or the theory doesn't extend into reality.


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Artanthos wrote:
Undone wrote:
I, and 1 other player in our home games, are no longer allowed to play wizards. After a few games it became clear we didn't need the party unless the adventuring day went more than 10 encounters. As such wizards tend to be rare at our tables. This post encapsulates wizards to me. Either they're so powerful due to system mastery that breaking the game takes effort to prevent or they're not so broken but still powerful.

I was barred from playing wizards once.

After playing a fighter for a while, it was requested that I stick to wizards.

Yeah, I can see where people would rather have the all-powerful god Wizard than the not-so-powerful Fighter.

Better to pull your own weight AND everyone else's than not even pull your own, after all.

Never GMed for it, but I've seen the beginnings of the god <Insert caster here> at work once it starts to kick in around level 10+.

I never had too much of a problem with it, but never particularly liked it either. Might've had to do with the fact that the PLAYER was a bit of a doucheweasel though more than anything.

Encounters were doable without him. They were roflstomps with him.


Artanthos wrote:
Undone wrote:
I, and 1 other player in our home games, are no longer allowed to play wizards. After a few games it became clear we didn't need the party unless the adventuring day went more than 10 encounters. As such wizards tend to be rare at our tables. This post encapsulates wizards to me. Either they're so powerful due to system mastery that breaking the game takes effort to prevent or they're not so broken but still powerful.

I was barred from playing wizards once.

After playing a fighter for a while, it was requested that I stick to wizards.

next time you play wuth a wizard you could create a simulacrum of your fighter. Or ten

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I never get to play at the levels where it matters.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I never get to play at the levels where it matters.

I know that feel. I've probably been level 1-7 for 70% of all my time spent playing Pathfinder/3.5. I die inside each time a game I'm in that is approaching a decent level collapses and the same DM says "it's cool I'm gonna make a new game with a new setting oh and we'll be starting at 1 again."

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

*brofist*

Liberty's Edge

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I feel a lot of this is theory. People are sitting at home, reading books, and they see a horrible monster in the bestiary. Then, they find a spell that would totally defeat said mnster. 'OMG, wizards are so broken'

When players have to memorize in advance, and don't know what's coming, and don't know how many encounters there will be, it's just not an issue 90% of the time.

Silver Crusade

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I saw a player attempt one of these once in a 3.0 game.

He kept telling me my encounters were 'improperly designed' because his high minded plans didn't work.

He'd show up loaded with evard's black tentacles to fight outsiders with teleport, or more frequently would appear with enervate and feeblemind spells and then complain for lack of wizards to hit with them.

And in one notable case he showed his 'godhood' by melding into the earth only to discover the enemy totally ignored him (He apparently expected them to be stymied by his brilliance, or try to dig him out or somethign) to focus on his party members.

Also, SR made him cry.


I'm actually plotting out my first 'god wizard'. As far as being able to handle any situation it shouldn't be too hard as long as the game stays somewhere around wealth by level (I should have most utility spells most of the time in scroll form without a problem, and all the buffing wands I need). The god wizard isn't a game breaker, though, he's a game winner as long as he has a competent party. Will Glasya be able to one shot end an encounter? Sure, but only once or twice a day, depending on the situation, and his resources will be better spent in other ways most of the time. Honestly the god wizard is a task undertaken by those of us who want to solve problems, not negate them.


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Rynjin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
After playing a fighter for a while, it was requested that I stick to wizards.

Yeah, I can see where people would rather have the all-powerful god Wizard than the not-so-powerful Fighter.

Better to pull your own weight AND everyone else's than not even pull your own, after all.

I would bet money that Artanthos made a super-optimised fighter who could win battles in a single full-round attack and/or had unhittable AC, and that was upset the group.


chaoseffect wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I never get to play at the levels where it matters.
I know that feel. I've probably been level 1-7 for 70% of all my time spent playing Pathfinder/3.5. I die inside each time a game I'm in that is approaching a decent level collapses and the same DM says "it's cool I'm gonna make a new game with a new setting oh and we'll be starting at 1 again."

Fortunately I play APs. And we finish them unless we TPK. Currently GMing Way of the Wicked at level 18. Players already making a Wish list. Literally :)


Quote:


Also, SR made him cry.

that's the hallmark of an awfully optimized god wizard


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chaoseffect wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I never get to play at the levels where it matters.
I know that feel. I've probably been level 1-7 for 70% of all my time spent playing Pathfinder/3.5. I die inside each time a game I'm in that is approaching a decent level collapses and the same DM says "it's cool I'm gonna make a new game with a new setting oh and we'll be starting at 1 again."

If I weren't a) crushingly insecure about my GMing style and b) positive that the time zone difference would create issues, I'd happily invite you (both) along to my high-level campaign, which is currently being played on Roll20. The characters are currently level 20 with mythic tier 3 from the playtest. It requires a different GMing paradigm to create effective adventures for them to go on, but it's functional and we're having a good time. It's always fun when the wizard uses Prismatic Sphere offensively and makes one of the blue dragons that are currently flying past him turn to stone.

Wheeeeeeee! SMASH

The important thing being that all of the other characters are either just as capable of turning such a dragon into sticky paste in a single round, or have abilities that allow them to shamelessly bypass any half-realistic task set for them. There is a whole level of fun involved in being the movers and shakers in the world, but still having to worry about the little things (like keeping those low-level NPCs alive while you turn the dragon into sticky paste).


There are only two problematic situations I've seen that focused on "god" wizards:

  • The scenario already mentioned where someone tries to play a battlefield controller but lacks either finesse or experience with the character to not hamper the other party members as well.
  • Players who fail to have their "god" wizard able to do anything but battlefield control and support. Wizards are versatile for a reason. Some situations call for the wizard to step up and kill things quickly when the party's main damage-dealers are unable to do the job.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

Ive seen it a couple of times in 3.5 though they had heavily used prestige classes to boost the already powerful base wizard. One used Transmutation and a spell I cant recall (I called it the toe spell) that allowed him to hide a part of his body away to become immune to death basically. He had craft contingency and was impossible to kill.

The other was a Mindbender who used a Charm Person with Contagious Metamagic and Chain Metamagic to become loved and worshiped enough to gain a divine rank and become an actual GOD. He of course was told by the DM if he cast the spell that it would work but that his character would become an NPC. He did it anyways cause its what his character would do. It had something to do with the Mindbender having an everlasting effect on people even after his charm spells faded away... they still REALLY like him. So the chain + contagious Meta caused it to go viral and he had ALOT of followers.

I have yet to see it in a PF game but I would assume while harder to pull off its not impossible.

What is contagious metamagic?<---What book was it in? I never even heard of that one.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:


Scry'n'Die also becomes a problem, as vision, greater teleport, and greater scrying allow the player to home in on their foes (all of which are 11th level and above by this point) even if they barely know who they are, scry on them, and immediately teleport to their location and bring the entire party along with no chance of error.

This leads to you running into the BBEG several levels ahead of time. Now unless the GM is in nice mode I don't see why this does not cause TPK's sometimes. Taking the long route is not just about bypassing enemies but it allows for information to be gathered.

edit:There is also a save involved, and when someone targets you with a spell you can tell, even if you dont know what it is, so if you are the only one in a room I don't see why you would not try to find out how it happened. Research by the bad guy should take place if he makes the save. Even if he can't figure it out his defenses should be in place.


chaoseffect wrote:

That reminds me of why I like Cacodaemons either as a familiar or through the spell Summon Cacodaemon.

Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars. Go directly to Abaddon.

Yes, that DC 12 caster level check is tough for anyone with the ability to revive to beat.

Silver Crusade

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:


Also, SR made him cry.
that's the hallmark of an awfully optimized god wizard

Never said he did it well.

As someone said earlier, there's a required level of system mastery to make the thing work. I think in his case apparently he was trying to follow some list of guidelines on it. While apparently ignoring the 'adapt to situations' guideline.

His logic apparently ran 'wizards are uber powerful, ergo everything should be wizards and I'll take only anti-wizard' equipment.

I've seen similar problems encountered by a player in a DnD game I'm in (3.5) who admittedly is floors above the guy above in competence. He apparently built a transmuter and has found his initial plans for improving the party's performance to be bolloxed on all sides by the fact that we don't want to go along with being modified into strange inhuman abominations by polymorphic magic for a statistical benefit. He however did adapt by focusing on spells that provided passive buffs and improved the party (overland flight, invisibility sphere, mass bear's endurance).

Sometimes I wish he'd just shoot something though.


Matthew Downie wrote:


I would bet money that Artanthos made a super-optimised fighter who could win battles in a single full-round attack and/or had unhittable AC, and that was upset the group.

Yeah, but sarcasm is more fun.

People for some reason hate it when the guy ends an encounter by beating one guy with a stick where the Wizard beats 6 guys by casting a spell that makes them worthless for the duration, leaving you to the mop up.


Arguecat wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:

That reminds me of why I like Cacodaemons either as a familiar or through the spell Summon Cacodaemon.

Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars. Go directly to Abaddon.

Yes, that DC 12 caster level check is tough for anyone with the ability to revive to beat.

I was thinking immediately feed it to the Cacodaemon so that the Wizard's soul is thrown into the Daemon home plane without his spellbook. I'm sure they'd find his soul delicious and from that point the only thing helping is "the direct intervention of a deity can return them to life—and sometimes not even then, such as when the soul is specifically devoured by one of the Horsemen."

Makes you wonder how time flows on Abaddon and how long it would take his friends (if they didn't die in the same fight that took the Wizard down or if they are even aware of what had happened) to be able to try to revive him.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:


Also, SR made him cry.
that's the hallmark of an awfully optimized god wizard

And it's so simple to fix. Glitterdust, create pit, grease, aqueous orb, and stinking cloud should have your bases covered.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:


Also, SR made him cry.
that's the hallmark of an awfully optimized god wizard
And it's so simple to fix. Glitterdust, create pit, grease, aqueous orb, and stinking cloud should have your bases covered.

This.

Also, unless the "SR" is the magic immunity possessed by golems any decent Wizard should be rocking 10 + Caster level on spellcraft check so failure against SR checks quickly goes from unlikely to impossible. If the SR of 30ish that most CR 19-20 creatures possess is working against a high level Wizard that Wizard has made a mistake.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber

As I understand it, the 'God' wizard play style isn't the type that breaks games. It's the type that preps flexible controlling spells, powerful buff spells, and debuffs that apply to many occasions, as coined in treantmonks guide, right?

First off, the 'God' label is pretty clearly tongue in cheek, just like the 'big dumb fighter.' As I understand it, it's called that more to illustrate how good the author thinks it is compared to the other play styles he mentions and an overview of it's manipulative and team focused aspects, as opposed to being an accurate assessment of it's in game power level.
So, despite the pretentious label, it's not a guide about how to use your spells become an invincible and immortal king of your own demiplane, smiting your foes in moments with unfathomable power.

Instead, this kind of play style is very team focused. Team focused characters are pretty game friendly in my experience.

A problem wizard would be a play style based around trivializing encounters, while only facing the ones they want. Like using a teleport spell to move the McGuffin into outer space, or flooding an underground dungeon instead of clearing it. A wizard is also capable of avoiding a lot of challenges they aren't currently capable of facing, and coming back later, better equipped.

Or worse, trivializing other players by usurping their roles and bypassing challenges where they could shine.

To me, that's a much more disruptive play style, and not one that buff/control type wizards usually use.


1.) Buff/Control Wizards DO trivialize encounters. There's a reason it's called battlefield CONTROL.

2.) The fun thing about Wizards is they can be Buffers/Controllers, and STILL use a Teleport spell to move a McGuffin into outer space and so on.

The joys of a massive amount of spells known and the ability to swap prepared spells every day.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Quote:


Also, SR made him cry.
that's the hallmark of an awfully optimized god wizard
And it's so simple to fix. Glitterdust, create pit, grease, aqueous orb, and stinking cloud should have your bases covered.

That was my point. One of the strength of God wizards is that several of their spells of choice are non-SR dependant. Including Summon monster.

A "God" wizard that is hosed by SR, is a badly optimized God wizard


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Raise your hand if this tread sent you hunting for the Wizard System Mastery archtype.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

Ive seen it a couple of times in 3.5 though they had heavily used prestige classes to boost the already powerful base wizard. One used Transmutation and a spell I cant recall (I called it the toe spell) that allowed him to hide a part of his body away to become immune to death basically. He had craft contingency and was impossible to kill.

The other was a Mindbender who used a Charm Person with Contagious Metamagic and Chain Metamagic to become loved and worshiped enough to gain a divine rank and become an actual GOD. He of course was told by the DM if he cast the spell that it would work but that his character would become an NPC. He did it anyways cause its what his character would do. It had something to do with the Mindbender having an everlasting effect on people even after his charm spells faded away... they still REALLY like him. So the chain + contagious Meta caused it to go viral and he had ALOT of followers.

I have yet to see it in a PF game but I would assume while harder to pull off its not impossible.

The "Toe Spell" was actually a 9th level Spell called: Hide Life. I used it myself in 3rd edition for a one-shot 20th level game.


I saw it in 3.0, 3.5 the Cleric/Druid were worse and in PF we rarely hit the higher levels anyway as the game tends to fall apart around level 10 or so.


Zardnaar wrote:
I saw it in 3.0, 3.5 the Cleric/Druid were worse and in PF we rarely hit the higher levels anyway as the game tends to fall apart around level 10 or so.

have you ever thought why the game ussually fall apart around that level?

It might have connections with lvl 5 spells...

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