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Ok first off i know calling out the Devs for a clarification is a big no no. And it's not what i'm doing here. i know what RAW says about the matter. And i'm not calling them out, i'm simply inviting any of them over to pop in and give there opinion- NOT an official clarification. If what people want is a clarification/errata then thats what the faq button is for.
First off my reasons are different than most. I'm not seeking an answer to tell me how to handle rule X in my game, or for me to show up anyone, or throw "JJ said" in my GM's face, or to state rule X is broken so paizo needs to publish errata on X rule.
The reason is I've been working on a supplement for a 3PP and there is a curtain class portion that revolves around earth glide. This supplemental class has powers that bend and effect earthglide, in the same manner as barbarian rage powers effect his rage. With that being said it's VERY difficult to write rage powers without knowing exactly how rage works, the same goes for earthglide. I never even realized any problems until it went into playtesting and playtesters brought up some interesting points.
Being as thorough as i am, i figured it only fair and worth a shot to seek some insight on how to handle it. After scouring the archives for some hopeful solutions i found more questions than answers.
I can let the class fall where it may and let the GM's handle it, as the rules are the rules. I can hold out on publication and hope for more rulings/errata which could cost me. I can give the class it's own clarifications that supersedes the pathfinder rules or future errata. Or maybe i could get some good insight from developers and players (future consumers),which is why i asked for opinions on the matter. I think maybe giving the class it's own clarifications would be best but i don't want this to come across as trying to make paizo look bad or for paizo to take any offense.
Lots of rules-
Tremorsense (Ex): A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Blindsense (Ex): Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Blindsight (Ex): This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using non visual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness,and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability.Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
Incorporeal (Ex): An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Non visual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures.Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Now i did find these threads helpful.
what is the point of the strikeback feat
Now according to raw and the Tremorsense clarification thread supports:
Tremorsense= you know what square opponent is in but they have concealment.
blindsense= you know what square opponent is in but they have concealment.
Blindsight= you know exactly where opponent is and has no concealment.
Strikeback= you normally cannot ready an attack to strike at a creature with reach who attacks you without this feat.
This seems to mean per raw that a large earth elemental could attack from 5' below an opponent, though the target would have concealment, and the opponent could not attack the target back. The opponent could not even ready an action without the strikeback feat, maybe not a problem for higher level adventurers (but extremely powerful). This would make the earth elemental intangible against lower level opponents.
Now this is obviously not what was intended but that is all RAW can provide. AT home it's easy to Houserule something up but when designing a product it's a whole different case :( I posted the incorporeal rules as this was the closest thing to compare earthgliding and attacking from inside the ground too, but earthgliding does not contain the wording as incorporeal does so it does not follow those rules.
It seems like there should be earthgliding movement and the earthgliding defensive ability. kind of like how incorporeal is a subtype and a defensive ability with two separate entries. I can't blame paizo for this, 3.5 actually had the same issue as well. To me earth combat happens just as much as flight combat or underwater combat but there just isn't more ruling on the matter any were i can locate.
Anyway, as i stated earlier i'm mainly seeking any advice how to anticipate and handle this situation from a designing standpoint for this product im working on. would it be better to clarify within the class or to let GM's choose how they handle this? from a player point of view what would a player prefer?
Strikeback= you normally cannot ready an attack to strike at a creature with reach who attacks you without this feat.
Amendment:
You normally cannot ready an attack to strike at a creature with reach who attacks you outside of your normal reach without this feat.
Earthglide doesn't render you intangible -- however you are probably untargetable from inside the ground since they probably don't have line of effect to you. However if they do something that will damage/displace the ground you are in it's going to affect you in some way.
for example move earth will move you 30 feet and stun you, while disintegrating the rock above you will expose you to attacks.
Like the ability states it's like a fish in water... only in this case the water is harder to attack through for anyone else.
If it helps consider it a tunnel that's just big enough for the earth gliding creature.
This seems to mean per raw that a large earth elemental could attack from 5' below an opponent, though the target would have concealment, and the opponent could not attack the target back.
Shouldn't this be handled the same way as an Incorporeal creature attacking from within a solid object?
"In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."
Perhaps not helpful for your book, but it's how I would run it.
I don't see that as being exactly what Grick said, or rather what the rules quote says that Grick copy/pasted.
The rules quote specifically mentions READIED ACTIONS, not that anybody has Line of Sight/Effect to you for 1 round.
[the creature must emerge] is applicable to MAKING THE ATTACK ITSELF, which people can Ready against.
sub-5' movements don't really exist as rules-trackable events in Pathfinder,
but there's no reason you can't emerge, making your attack, and remerge into the earth/stone...
if that wasn't the case, and they were attackable for one full round, it seems very deceptive to specifically describe Readied actions as the only way for most creatures to attack them.
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Anyhow, I think how you are describing it is how it works.
I don't think Blindsense/Blindsight are particularly relevant abilities for an Earthglide creature, since they still rely on Line of Effect... Even if the creature also hays Tremorsense, that doesn't grant LoE, it just pin-points the location... Blind-Fight is a good Feat for such creatures to have though. As mentioned, Move Earth works great vs. such creatures, which kind of brings up a good point> Earthglide is rather inconvenient if you want to cast targetted/area spells since you probably don't have Line of Sight/Effect (unless you momentarily emerge, just like attacking). There is something called Crystal Sight that is an Earth Oracle ability, and may be present elsewhere, that 'fixes' the LoS issues (though not Effect) while Earthgliding in Stone.
How you describe a creature attacking a target above it seems spot on... Even without Reach, i.e. the Earthglide creature in the square/cube immediately below the surface creature's, only a Ready Action is going to be able to hurt them (from mundane physical combatants, ignoring Move Earth, etc).
This seems to mean per raw that a large earth elemental could attack from 5' below an opponent, though the target would have concealment, and the opponent could not attack the target back.Shouldn't this be handled the same way as an Incorporeal creature attacking from within a solid object?
"In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."
Perhaps not helpful for your book, but it's how I would run it.
Doesn't matter if said creature has reach. They can strike out at you all day and you won't be able to touch them.
Doesn't matter if said creature has reach. They can strike out at you all day and you won't be able to touch them.
Not if they're incorporeal. A ... giant ghost, for example, must still emerge in order to attack, otherwise the target has total concealment.
So, if you run Earthglide the same way, it must still emerge in order to attack.
Otherwise a CR 5 creature can completely destroy a party that has no way of getting off the ground.
-edit- changed concealment to cover, d'oh
-edit2- changed it back, monster has cover, party has concealment
So I guess by "attack normally" it means "attack without 50% miss chance from concealment" and, 50% with no retaliation seems rather better than risking emergence. So why would ghosts or elementals ever leave their objects?
This debate again. Earthglide only allows you to move through earth not chill below ground and attack those above you. Otherwise you have a TPK waiting to happen. Not all levels of the game allow access to flight before that counter comes up, but earth elements are available for the first half of the game as stock monsters.
By RAW nothing allows an element to strike those above it.
Earthglide only allows you to move through earth not chill below ground and attack those above you.
You're saying Earth Glide doesn't allow you to end your movement in the ground? Interesting.
Earthglide only allows you to move through earth not chill below ground and attack those above you.You're saying Earth Glide doesn't allow you to end your movement in the ground? Interesting.
That is clearly not what I said. Try again.
The way I see the rules is this:
Earth Glide lets you move through the earth, which would IMO mean that you can not only take move actions through the earth, but also can swing limbs about and thus take attacks from within the earth, even to objects outside the earth.
Line of sight is still an issue. Blindsense does not fix this issue, and Tremorsense seems to be a weaker version of Blindsense which still requires perception to notice things (given the lack of the exclusion present in the Blindsense entry) and only works to locate things in or on the earth (or water for aquatic creatures). Thus, with either of these abilities concealment would still be an issue. You know your opponent is in square x, but not exactly where in that square.
Blindsight, however, is a ramped up version of Blindsense which locates things flawlessly within it's domain (usually air). That said, Blindsight also has an option on how it functions ("sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation", and assumed etc.), In the case of an earth-based combatant physical vibration would be the most useful.
Assuming that you treat vibration as any physical movement of a mostly solid object, and that that sensation may be transmitted tough any two firmly contacting surfaces, I would venture to say that a creature with blindsight based on vibration would have line of sight to any creature physically within or touching the same body of earth in which they are located. However, due to the nature of the vibrations which they utilize for their particular version of Blindsight, that ability would not function through the air, just as a bat's Blindsight (based on echolocation) does not function through stone.
This means that you could target a creature just outside but still in contact with the earth in which you are earth gliding if you had any of the above senses, but would suffer the effects of total concealment unless you had the above version of Blindsight. However, I would rule that you are effectively blind while earthgliding without any of these abilities and must otherwise rely on your general sense of direction while earthgliding. This would also mean that while you might be able to "hear" a creature just outside the cave wall you are hiding in, you would have to target a random square, hope your target is in it, and still suffer total concealment unless you emerge from the wall in which you are hiding.
And given the wording from the Incorporeal entry:
It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object.
I might also say the same for incorporeal creatures. Sure they know that a creature is adjacent to them, and which adjacent squares are outside the wall, but they don't necessarily know which of these squares the creature actually occupies. Of course, that's just me.
Note, also, that this does not necessarily give line of effect for ranged touch attacks, etc., as the earth itself is still an obstacle to these effects, if not to your physical form and the items you carry.
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This would also mean that while you might be able to "hear" a creature just outside the cave wall you are hiding in, you would have to target a random square, hope your target is in it, and still suffer total concealment unless you emerge from the wall in which you are hiding.
There's actually rules for that> distance thru a wall, as well as for total darkness.
(i'm not really sure if those should stack... unless paizo intends for the standard wall to be transparent)A Perception check with all relevant penalties should pinpoint any opponent... Concealment still applies.
What's the worst case here? They attack you from underground probably with Miss Chance.
Your next action can be to Ready an Action to attack them back.
Or if they have Reach and you can't do that
(without that special Feat, which is so situational that very few people would have it),
you can instead Ready an Action to MOVE AWAY when you are attacked, making it almost impossible to hit you.
Honestly, I do think feedback from Paizo would be interesting, and I think focusing on how they use/would use Earth Elementals in adventure encounters is crucial...
Doesn't matter if said creature has reach. They can strike out at you all day and you won't be able to touch them.Not if they're incorporeal. A ... giant ghost, for example, must still emerge in order to attack, otherwise the target has total concealment.
So, if you run Earthglide the same way, it must still emerge in order to attack.
Otherwise a CR 5 creature can completely destroy a party that has no way of getting off the ground.
-edit- changed concealment to cover, d'oh
-edit2- changed it back, monster has cover, party has concealment
So I guess by "attack normally" it means "attack without 50% miss chance from concealment" and, 50% with no retaliation seems rather better than risking emergence. So why would ghosts or elementals ever leave their objects?
Whether or not they emerge is inconsequential. You can't make an AoO against something outside of your reach. If they aren't attacking, then they are in the wall and cannot be touched due to total cover. If they attack, you can't hurt them without a readied action and the strike back feat because they are out of your reach. An incorporeal/earth glide creature using reach is nearly impossible to beat (without strike back).
Whether or not they emerge is inconsequential. You can't make an AoO against something outside of your reach. If they aren't attacking, then they are in the wall and cannot be touched due to total cover. If they attack, you can't hurt them without a readied action and the strike back feat because they are out of your reach. An incorporeal/earth glide creature using reach is nearly impossible to beat (without strike back).
Ghosts and such hiding in walls have to remain adjacent to to wall's exterior, so they'd be in reach.
Whether or not they emerge is inconsequential. You can't make an AoO against something outside of your reach. If they aren't attacking, then they are in the wall and cannot be touched due to total cover. If they attack, you can't hurt them without a readied action and the strike back feat because they are out of your reach. An incorporeal/earth glide creature using reach is nearly impossible to beat (without strike back).Ghosts and such hiding in walls have to remain adjacent to to wall's exterior, so they'd be in reach.
True that, though that doesn't necessarily hold for creatures with earth glide. :)
True that, though that doesn't necessarily hold for creatures with earth glide. :)Whether or not they emerge is inconsequential. You can't make an AoO against something outside of your reach. If they aren't attacking, then they are in the wall and cannot be touched due to total cover. If they attack, you can't hurt them without a readied action and the strike back feat because they are out of your reach. An incorporeal/earth glide creature using reach is nearly impossible to beat (without strike back).Ghosts and such hiding in walls have to remain adjacent to to wall's exterior, so they'd be in reach.
exactly, and there in lies the problem. I don't really blame paizo. you can't anticipate EVERYTHING. This is more like a butterfly effect and you don't always see every ripple. But it's almost a completely separate part of combat that just never seemed to be noticed and was overlooked. Imagine if flight combat rules or combat in water had no rules, this is almost exactly that. There just are NO rules for it. Maybe earthgliding seemed such a small niche at the time that this just wasn't anticipated. But, now you have even more monsters and even more classes that brings up this situation. It's only going to keep popping up until it's resolved.
You can say, well it's LIKE this or should follow this rule cause it makes sense. But thats not raw. And when writing a product there's a big difference in "well this is how i will run it" and "this is actually the rule".
Going back to incorporeal, if you actually read the rule, a ghost most certainly CAN attack from within. It MAY emerge to attack normally but all normally means is stepping out of the solid object and following the normal combat rules. It can still attack inside a solid object, or abnormally if you will, but the target has total concealment (50% miss). why can it do this? Because incorporeal explicitly says it can, making that RAW for incorporeal creatures.
earthgliding has no such wording nor are there rules for in the ground combat to reference to. You could compare it to to creatures fighting in water IF both creatures were earthgliding,but that isn't the issue.
IF earthgliding read the following, using part of the rules from incorporeal it would resolve itself.
*houserule*
Universal monster rules
Earth Glide (Ex)
An earth gliding creature can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
If a creature that is earth gliding posses tremorsense It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square within range of it's tremorsense. Enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an earth gliding creature with tremorsense that is inside stone, dirt, or earth. An earth gliding creature inside stone, dirt, or earth has total cover, but if it attacks a creature outside the ground it only has cover. An opponent outside the ground may ready an action to strike at the earth gliding creature as it attacks, even if the earth gliding creature has reach and is out of range.
This is probably how it was intended to be but im just guessing. Still per raw earthgliding doesn't say as much and there is no earthgliding listed in "universal monster rules" like incorporeal. you shouldn't HAVE to have spells such as move earth to slay a CR 1 creature. Nor should the only way to combat a CR 1 earth elemental at lower levels be "i ready an action to run away if it attacks me". Not only does this force a runaway scenario but it still doesn't solve it as earth elementals don't have to sleep and most low level PC's do. Now, this is how i ran in the games i GM'd in the past but from a design stand point this doesn't help me....
If the rules wanted you to punch through walls they would say so. I see that just like the last thread nobody has an answer as to how to stop TPK's especially at low levels. Dealing with an earth elemental when it fights you straight on is hard enough. Now you have to deal with miss chance and DR, and of all the elementals they would give it to the one that hits the hardest, really?
RAW say no. Feel free to houserule otherwise.
RAW say no.
Actually, the RAW don't specify.
They say it can move through earth like a fish in water. They say it can attack someone 10' away. It's logical to assume that, like a giant squid or something, it can attack someone through the medium which presents no barrier to it. Even though the rules don't specifically say so. (And they don't say you can't, either)
You are not arguing RAW, you're arguing Rules As Is Fair. It's no argument that an essentially invulnerable elemental (or ghost, or whatever) can TPK if it decides to never emerge, and this is unfair and not fun. But just saying "It's RAW!" with no citation or argument other than "It doesn't say you can" (While it highly implies you can) doesn't really help the discussion.
I have had to deal with exactly this topic for years - after all, all those nice high level druids can turn into earth elementals. It was much, much worse under 3.5e, trust me - 3.5e never specified how earth elementals saw where they were going, and furthermore, 3.5e earth elementals did not have Tremorsense.
Now, since (per Earth Glide) earth gliding is like a fish in water, it's reasonable to treat the earth/air boundary as water/air. It's not RAW, but it's about as close as you're going to get.
Also, earth elementals can't "see" when they're in the earth - they use Tremorsense. So if they're hiding in the earth, they can pinpoint the location of creatures on the surface, and that's about it. Flying creatures are safe.
Thus, a smart elemental (and I usually don't play them that smart, even a Greater Earth Elemental only has Int 8), could hide in the ground and the PCs would be defenseless, but most don't, they surface like a kraken and slog away, not being smart enough to do the mental math and realize they're safer underground. Even so, they're usually only partially exposed, gaining the benefits of Improved Cover. I treat that as instinctive behavior.
The druid among my players' favorite tactic is to stay in medium or small elemental form and travel along with the party with just her head showing out of the ground, also granting her Improved Cover and the ability to have Total Cover with just a move action.
A smart earth elemental with Blindsight would be a fearsome thing indeed.
Yes, TPK does still seem to be an issue. Perhaps by ruling that in order to be close enough to effectively attack a creature outside the body or earth in which you are hiding you must be close enough to the surface to negate total cover from your opponents, reducing it to improved cover.
You are effectively close enough to the surface that it acts as heavy armor (the +8 AC), but well enough hidden that you get a bonus to reflex saves as well (the +4). However, since you still cannot actually see your opponent without blindsight, they still have total cover from you. If you move from your attacking location at any point, or do not attack in a round you regain the effects of total cover and cannot be attacked that round, but the act of attacking identifies your location and makes these rules take effect.
A smart elemental (8+) would use these tactics, even if all they had was blindsense or tremorsense. An elemental of near-animal intelligence (5-7) would not. They would expose themselves to get a better chance to hit, at most taking advantage of normal cover. An elemental of animal intelligence or worse (4 or less) would just come out and attack, no cover used.
Under these circumstances a small or meduim elemental (CR 1-3) would just come out, as they are too stupid to use these advanced tactics. A large or huge elemental (CR 5-7) would typically benefit from normal cover (+4 AC, +2 Ref), and greater+ elementals (CR 9+) would take advantage of the total cover rules (+8 AC, +4 Ref), at least until the characters scared it off or found a way to avoid this tactic. Of course, by this point the PC's likely have enough HP to survive at least a couple rounds, and the fly spell to boot.
I don't see TPK really being an issue unless the Elemental is actively hunting all PCs even if they flee, and by fluke chance the PCs can never succesfully use Stealth vs the Elemental's Perception checks (as mentioned above, I'm not sure exactly what penalties apply there, but some obviously do) in order to leave the Elemental unaware of their position... Even not using Stealth at all, if the PCs split up when they flee, the Elemental can only follow one, and will lose the other's lcoation.
I don't really see attacking from a hidden position as requiring alot of intelligence... it seems a tactic that Animals would use. Elementals should be able to know that surface-dwellers can't Earthglide and can't attack into the Earth. Animals use hunting tactics that make themselves least subject to harm, and make the prey most susceptable... same thing here, with D&D magic added.
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Also, earth elementals can't "see" when they're in the earth - they use Tremorsense. So if they're hiding in the earth, they can pinpoint the location of creatures on the surface, and that's about it. Flying creatures are safe.
As I wrote before, they also have normal Perception. If they can't see, they don't have Line of Sight, but they can succesfully Pinpoint targets, including those outside of Tremorsense range or it's limitations, e.g. Flying opponents - the DC is just a bit harder for range, etc.
I agree with Grick's last post re the RAW issue - besides what the rules DO say, there isn't anything giving further limitations on Earthgliding creature's actions> nothing like 'you can't attack/take normal actions when within solid rock'.
I don't think the issue is as 'problematic' as alot of people do, but I am honestly interested in how Paizo views this in the scope of how they design encounters for APs, etc... Do they have a problem introducing Small Earth Elementals at appropriate CR (which can be very low APL when the Elemental is meant to be a tougher opponent) who never leave themselves open to attack by leaving the rock they are Earthgliding thru? (meaning only Readied Attacks can counter them) ...
As I noted, fleeing is a pretty decent option, especially via Readied Actions to Move, but anybody sticking around to slug it out may have a very tough time.
I hit the FAQ on the top post and this one...
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I agree with concerro.
It says you can move through the earth as if it were water. It doesn't say that the earth becomes the consistency of water to you for any other purpose. Attacking someone is not movement by the RAW. Presuming you can do anything other than move is specious.
You guys - from my perspective - are trying to make logical sense of a strange power, and as you think to yourselves, 'hmmm, this thing can move through the earth, sense the presence of folks on the ground above, and punching is really just the arm moving through the earth like the body when travelling, wow, yeah, it should be able to hit someone logically!'
Then you run into the obvious problem, 'oh man, this is going to break the game.'
The easier solution, and the one tied more closely to the RAW, is to let the creature move through the earth. And that's it. If that violates your suspension of disbelief then I wish you the best of luck house ruling otherwise, but I suspect your exercise at such will create naught but headaches.
Never had it break the game before, and I run it just like that all the time.
Never had it break the game before, and I run it just like that all the time.
Same here. Without such a natural tactic, earth elementals are little more than uninteresting beat bags chock full of HP/XP.
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I'm not sure how, at low levels, a "it can hit me, but I can't hit it" enemy isn't breaking the game. Maybe you play it with some sort of additional house rule to balance it, I don't know.
But allowing a creature in the earth to attack is not the RAW. My point, written above, remains.
As far as the creature being uninteresting without the ability to hit while it's underground . . . well, that's just goofy. A creature is as interesting as you make it in the game. Combats are as interesting as you make them too. It's your choice if you use the elemental as a monolith of hit points, and nothing else. But you have more options, you can, for instance, charge through the earth (ending up outside the earth) and attack the unsuspecting players.
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As I noted, fleeing is a pretty decent option, especially via Readied Actions to Move, but anybody sticking around to slug it out may have a very tough time.
The only reason to get TPKed I see is the Videogame mentality that if you meet any hostile creature it means you should be able to kill it for the XP. Hiding in the ground is a very weak offensive strategy and at some point the elemental(s) will have to get out - but it sounds to me like a damn good way to scare your players before an otherwise easy fight - and to make them paranoid for the rest of the game about not only the sky, but the ground also. :P
"Goofy" and "house rules to make it work" are the best you can come up with?
How is it not RAW?
Are you saying you can't attack out of water because swimming only lets you move through water?
Creatures with earth glide don't have reach as well until level 5. Without reach this isn't a problem, with reach and it's still not a problem (see below). Earth elementals still only have a move of 20 feet at that level and honestly aren't that much of a threat even with this ability. You can just out move them. That's the earliest this ability is combined with reach, and without reach you can ready an action.
Also: IF you have lunge or a reach weapon you can ready an attack against the earth elemental as it attacks you since it is within your reach (even if you can't actually get it) -- Strike back lets you do this if it isn't within your reach.
"Goofy" and "house rules to make it work" are the best you can come up with?
How is it not RAW?
Are you saying you can't attack out of water because swimming only lets you move through water?
Creatures with earth glide don't have reach as well until level 5. Without reach this isn't a problem, with reach and it's still not a problem (see below). Earth elementals still only have a move of 20 feet at that level and honestly aren't that much of a threat even with this ability. You can just out move them. That's the earliest this ability is combined with reach, and without reach you can ready an action.
Also: IF you have lunge or a reach weapon you can ready an attack against the earth elemental as it attacks you since it is within your reach (even if you can't actually get it) -- Strike back lets you do this if it isn't within your reach.
Saying that a fight with an elemental that can't attack through the earth is uninteresting -- yes, I find that goofy. Goofy, yes, that is the best I can come up with. As in foolish, ridiculous, and silly. There are several ways to make the combat interesting without having the elemental attack from underground. That part of the reply was in response to Ravingdork.
How is it not RAW, you ask: it's not RAW because you can not attack through the earth as a general rule in Pathfinder. Can a human fighter attack through the earth? No, of course not. The only way someone could actually attack through a physical barrier is if that said someone had explicit permission in the rules to do so.
Extrapolating that you think a creature should be able to do it because they are explicitly allowed to take movement actions through the earth is specious. In other words, you're jumping to a conclusion that the elemental can attack someone through the earth because they may take movement through the earth.
Your personal imagination regarding what it means to "swim through the earth" doesn't dictate the RAW. The RAW say that a creature with earth glide can move through the earth. The RAW don't say that a creature with earth glide can attack through the earth; that's what your imagination tells you.
Regarding the bit about house rules: I now think I understand how this ridiculous ability works in your game without creating TPK's. You allow characters to ready actions against the earth gliding creature, and you further run the earth gliding creature as if it's basically a robot programmed to attack, destroy, attack, destroy.
Example:
"I ready an action to strike it!" Okay, next round it comes out, and you strike it!
As opposed to:
"I ready an action to strike it!" Okay, well, it doesn't seem to be continuing an aggressive attitude this round, sorry. I'll let you know when it surprises you with another attack that whittles you down even more.
Also, a CR 1 earth elemental can earth glide.
Finally, think of it as the elemental moving through the earth, where the earth opens and closes around the elemental's body as it moves. The earth doesn't open and close around the elemental's wailing limbs, it just opens and closes as the elemental wills its body to move.
RAW say no.Actually, the RAW don't specify.
They say it can move through earth like a fish in water. They say it can attack someone 10' away. It's logical to assume that, like a giant squid or something, it can attack someone through the medium which presents no barrier to it. Even though the rules don't specifically say so. (And they don't say you can't, either)
You are not arguing RAW, you're arguing Rules As Is Fair. It's no argument that an essentially invulnerable elemental (or ghost, or whatever) can TPK if it decides to never emerge, and this is unfair and not fun. But just saying "It's RAW!" with no citation or argument other than "It doesn't say you can" (While it highly implies you can) doesn't really help the discussion.
RAW=You can only do what the book says you can do. The book only says you can move through the earth not punch through it.
Does it make sense to be able to punch/slam thought it? Sure it does, but what makes sense and what is written and/or intended or not the same thing so until you get a quote saying they can reach through earth they can't.
The only reason to get TPKed I see is the Videogame mentality that if you meet any hostile creature it means you should be able to kill it for the XP. Hiding in the ground is a very weak offensive strategy and at some point the elemental(s) will have to get out - but it sounds to me like a damn good way to scare your players before an otherwise easy fight - and to make them paranoid for the rest of the game about not only the sky, but the ground also. :P
As I noted, fleeing is a pretty decent option, especially via Readied Actions to Move, but anybody sticking around to slug it out may have a very tough time.
Why would it have to come out? You can't see the element so you don't know what square it is in, and if it has reach it can be 10 or more feet below ground at later levels. At 10 feet you have no chance to hit it, and it has a 50% chance to hit you. Guess who my money is on.
"Goofy" and "house rules to make it work" are the best you can come up with?
How is it not RAW?
Are you saying you can't attack out of water because swimming only lets you move through water?
Creatures with earth glide don't have reach as well until level 5. Without reach this isn't a problem, with reach and it's still not a problem (see below). Earth elementals still only have a move of 20 feet at that level and honestly aren't that much of a threat even with this ability. You can just out move them. That's the earliest this ability is combined with reach, and without reach you can ready an action.
Also: IF you have lunge or a reach weapon you can ready an attack against the earth elemental as it attacks you since it is within your reach (even if you can't actually get it) -- Strike back lets you do this if it isn't within your reach.
If it is below ground it still has cover, even if not full cover, and you should not need a feat to fight a monster. This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?
Nothing says the earth elemental is ever exposed unlike the incorporeal rules which do say so.
Something to keep in mind here is the difference between Earth Glide and a Burrow Speed. There has to be something special there that differentiates between the two, and the ability to pop up, attack, and pop back down without leaving a hole to hit you through seems about right to me. (It's the same kind of 'same space' movement done in normal combat, just darting back and forth without actually travelling.)
Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence.
It seems that the ability to do so without anyone knowing is the benefit. That is all RAW gives us anyway.
I checked the PRD for burrow, but nothing was there.
If it is below ground it still has cover, even if not full cover, and you should not need a feat to fight a monster. This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?
Nothing says the earth elemental is ever exposed unlike the incorporeal rules which do say so.
Full cover isn't going to stop the attack though so long as you have the same reach as the monster (all that is required to ready a melee attack against it for when it attacks you).
Besides saying you shouldn't "have" to have a feat is kind of like saying, "Well I shouldn't have to have equipment to adventure" or "I shouldn't have to heal after battle." It's one specific ability, and it happens to have a single means of being useful beyond movement.
It's not like there aren't hundreds of other abilities have similar "oooh this is hard" things going on.
If it is below ground it still has cover, even if not full cover, and you should not need a feat to fight a monster. This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?
Nothing says the earth elemental is ever exposed unlike the incorporeal rules which do say so.Full cover isn't going to stop the attack though so long as you have the same reach as the monster (all that is required to ready a melee attack against it for when it attacks you).
Besides saying you shouldn't "have" to have a feat is kind of like saying, "Well I shouldn't have to have equipment to adventure" or "I shouldn't have to heal after battle." It's one specific ability, and it happens to have a single means of being useful beyond movement.
It's not like there aren't hundreds of other abilities have similar "oooh this is hard" things going on.
Equipment is not a feat. No feat is required for any other monster in the game. Since when is that good game design? Since you are saying it is one specific ability that makes it even less plausible for you to waste a feat in the hopes that the GM might throw an earth element in the party. A feat that helps you against a type of monster, such as elementals in general might even be sellable , but one specific monster, I doubt it.
It does not matter what your reach is. You can ready an attack all day long, unless you have strike back you can't hit it. Back to my other question. Since this ability works like it did in 3.5 how was it supposed to be defeated then. Did the designers just expect for you to die before PF came out?
"This is hard" had nothing to do with it. Dealing with incorporeal beings is annoying, but at least I can expect to be able to kill them with the rules as written. The earth elemental laughing at you while it attacks from full cover is not even in the same category.
Dealing with incorporeal can require a feat -- if not a class feature or special equipment.
Dealing with werewolves can do the same and require something to get rid of the curse/disease afterward.
Dealing with undead in general can require restorations.
Dealing with earth elementals does not require a feat. A feat can make it easier, but special equipment can handle large elementals (again a reach weapon) as can a whole host of spells and other options.
Nothing about an earth elemental requires a feat, it simply requires thinking.
Strike back is only needed if you want to attack with a melee weapon that won't reach to the monster.
This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?
They readied actions to attack the limbs of such creatures, naturally. This feat is a limiter in disguise, not an extra option. Without its existence, everyone would be able to do this by default, as they did in v3.5.
Low level parties should be able to defeat such creatures: Readied Actions work just fine.
As mentioned, Earth Elementals are slow creatures, so escaping them isn't a problem,
Readying a Move away from them when attack if necessary, again, as already mentioned.
TPK only seems likely for stupid players who are exceptionally stubborn, and fight to the death any threat.
That approach just isn't appropriate too a real roleplaying game, so if it doesn't work well in this case (BESIDES ALL THE OTHER CASES WHERE IT ISN'T A GOOD IDEA) I'm just fine by that.
Again, I DO think clarification from Paizo would be useful here, either from the Rules team or from the Adventure team that is supposed to know how to put this material into use... Clarifying the difference between Earthglide and Burrow is a good idea: I could imagine saying that Burrow means that adjacent creatures (i.e. if you are DIRECTLY below their square) still have Line of Sight/Effect to you, while Earthglide means they don't (or allows the Earthglider to choose that option... not doing so does have benefits: better situational awareness and ability to take AoO's, etc). OBviousyly, the current rules don't make these differences clear, much less the issue people are debating.
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Ravingdork: Without the existence of Strikeback, exactly how do you attack creatures that you don't threaten? All attacks are predicated on threatening the opponent. Maybe you didn't play 3.5 that way, but creatures definitely aren't considered to occupy all of their Reach, and the squares they occupy is used to determine what can attack them. I do still think that Strikeback should have applied to AoOs as well as Readied Attacks, but if you play with me, then it does! :-)
blah blah, i'm right, you're wrong, i'm pretty, you're ugly, blah blah
Or we could, you know, play by the rules. Where earth glide does not grant permission to attack.
I don't know why you fancy the idea that earth glide allows for more than it does.
blah blah, i'm right, you're wrong, i'm pretty, you're ugly, blah blahOr we could, you know, play by the rules. Where earth glide does not grant permission to attack.
I don't know why you fancy the idea that earth glide allows for more than it does.
Why are you shoving words in my mouth?
By RAW you can attack while earth gliding. You haven't proven you can't you've only said doing so could result in a TPK. These things are not the same.
Dealing with incorporeal can require a feat -- if not a class feature or special equipment.
Dealing with werewolves can do the same and require something to get rid of the curse/disease afterward.
Dealing with undead in general can require restorations.
Dealing with earth elementals does not require a feat. A feat can make it easier, but special equipment can handle large elementals (again a reach weapon) as can a whole host of spells and other options.
Nothing about an earth elemental requires a feat, it simply requires thinking.
Strike back is only needed if you want to attack with a melee weapon that won't reach to the monster.
You have several ways to handle incorporeal creatures. You have oneway aka strike back, which is a my point to deal with the earth elemental. That is not even a comparison. Channel energy, cure spells, and magic weapons are things most groups have anyway. I have yet to see a group in a normal game without access to at least one of them. Even if the monster is not undead you can cast magic weapon on nonmagical weapon. A few gold pieces does not equal a feat.
Requiring something is not the issue. Requiring a nonrenewable resource(feat) that may never come into play is. The fact that such a feat never exist in 3.5, and there is nothing that changes between 3.5 to PF shows it was not meant to work that way.
Notice that with everything you mentioned you are not restricted to a nonrenewable resource that is not useful in any other circumstance. When you name something that is as restrictive and costly as earth glide then I might give you some credit.
Abraham you have yet to present a solution so don't say it requires thinking when don't even have an answer for your interpretation of the rule other than strike back or hoping you are at a level when you can fly and don't have to defeat the element to complete the mission.
This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?They readied actions to attack the limbs of such creatures, naturally. This feat is a limiter in disguise, not an extra option. Without its existence, everyone would be able to do this by default, as they did in v3.5.
Targeting limbs requires called shots which did not exist in 3.5. You had to target the creature not its outstretched limbs.
blah blah, i'm right, you're wrong, i'm pretty, you're ugly, blah blahOr we could, you know, play by the rules. Where earth glide does not grant permission to attack.
I don't know why you fancy the idea that earth glide allows for more than it does.
Why are you shoving words in my mouth?
By RAW you can attack while earth gliding. You haven't proven you can't you've only said doing so could result in a TPK. These things are not the same.
Nobody said you could not attack. We said that you can't attack through the earth. Earth Glide never says you can do that. If it this debate would have ended a long time ago.
Chill out people... If it helps soothe the nerves, hit the FAQ button.
I already have:
Lets use a small as an example:
It reaches out to attack you -- your readied action goes off and you hit it.
Large and you have a reach weapon:
It reaches out to attack you -- your readied action goes off and you hit it.
Nothing about readying a melee attack states that the creature can't have concealment or even total cover against you -- only that it has to be within reach of the weapon.
The earth elemental is within reach, normally you couldn't strike it but when it reaches up you can because it is within reach and you readied an action to hit it when it attacks you. You could simply *not* be on the ground as well.
It's like complaining that flying renders melee useless -- Well duh, now quit crying and get out a bow.
Please note that a bow doesn't even require you to threaten the creature -- you can ready to attack with it when it reaches out of the ground to hit anyone.
Just because people don't want to hear solutions doesn't mean I've not presented them.
blah blah, i'm right, you're wrong, i'm pretty, you're ugly, blah blahOr we could, you know, play by the rules. Where earth glide does not grant permission to attack.
I don't know why you fancy the idea that earth glide allows for more than it does.
Why are you shoving words in my mouth?
By RAW you can attack while earth gliding. You haven't proven you can't you've only said doing so could result in a TPK. These things are not the same.
Learn where the burden of proof lies here.
I've told you what the RAW allows here. I've told you that you are presuming otherwise.
What you have failed to do is provide a quote that says you can attack through the earth.
Nobody said you could not attack. We said that you can't attack through the earth. Earth Glide never says you can do that. If it this debate would have ended a long time ago.
So Krakens can not attack something above the water -- or indeed in water at all.
In fact no one can since swimming only allows movement.
After all earth glide works just like swimming through water.
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On the side -- earth glide specifically mentions when the creature burrows. If you don't have a burrowing speed you can't burrow therefore without a burrow speed you can't earth glide so it's not a problem right?
I already have:
Lets use a small as an example:
It reaches out to attack you -- your readied action goes off and you hit it.
Large and you have a reach weapon:
It reaches out to attack you -- your readied action goes off and you hit it.
Nothing about readying a melee attack states that the creature can't have concealment or even total cover against you -- only that it has to be within reach of the weapon.
Having total cover is a general rule so in order to bypass that rule reach weapons would need a clause saying they can. Are you going to argue that someone can hit an opponent on the other side of a brick wall? There are also no rules to target limbs.
The earth elemental is within reach, normally you couldn't strike it but when it reaches up you can because it is within reach and you readied an action to hit it when it attacks you. You could simply *not* be on the ground as well.
It's like complaining that flying renders melee useless -- Well duh, now quit crying and get out a bow.
A monster trying to hit you does not put it within reach. That is like saying a giant who is 10 feet away can be hit because he tried to slam you even though he is nowhere near you.
Just because people don't want to hear solutions doesn't mean I've not presented them.
All I see you doing is making up rules.