Come on Abe. Yeah, nothing about Ready Action cares about Total Cover.
But all attacks in general aren't possible vs. Total Cover. So Readying with a Reach Weapon to attack something 5-10' below the surface doesn't really cut it. Strike Back removes the need to actually threaten the opponent, so you don't have to worry about Total Cover prevent attacks (preventing you from threatening them).
If they're adjacent (immediately below) then attacking you presumably puts their own body in contact with the border between the squares allowing momentary Line of Effect (Partial Cover should probably apply though). IF they can attack thru earth with their Reach, they constantly have Total Cover though, unless somebody is using Strikeback. ...Honestly I can see reason in both sides of that, and so Paizo feedback there would be really useful IMHO.
Learn where the burden of proof lies here.I've told you what the RAW allows here. I've told you that you are presuming otherwise.
What you have failed to do is provide a quote that says you can attack through the earth.
Burden of proof yes -- you are claiming what I'm doing isn't legal -- therefore proving you are right lies with you.
I would love to hear you explain how the ground suddenly doesn't allow them to move through it because they are attacking now instead of simply moving.
Heck by your own assessment my above tongue in cheek post is quite correct.
Chill out people... If it helps soothe the nerves, hit the FAQ button.
When people decide called shots are normal rules it is hard to chill bro. :)
Nobody said you could not attack. We said that you can't attack through the earth. Earth Glide never says you can do that. If it this debate would have ended a long time ago.So Krakens can not attack something above the water -- or indeed in water at all.
In fact no one can since swimming only allows movement.
After all earth glide works just like swimming through water.
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On the side -- earth glide specifically mentions when the creature burrows. If you don't have a burrowing speed you can't burrow therefore without a burrow speed you can't earth glide so it's not a problem right?
The Kraken can not attack because it can swim. It can attack above water because water does not stop anything from reaching through it. Earth does at least until a rule comes along that says you can attack through it.
I am not saying Earth Glide is logical with the way it is written. I am saying that if they intended for you to do more than move through it they would have said so, and that there would probably be no very low CR earth elementals since parties would die.They are hard enough when they surface, to think you will take one when he is below ground is wishful thinking.
Learn where the burden of proof lies here.I've told you what the RAW allows here. I've told you that you are presuming otherwise.
What you have failed to do is provide a quote that says you can attack through the earth.
Burden of proof yes -- you are claiming what I'm doing isn't legal -- therefore proving you are right lies with you.
No rules say you have to jump in a straight line, so I will jump 10 feet ahead then shoot off at a 90 degree angle to finish the jump for the other 10 feet.
Abraham,
First, I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I just finding it frustrating when people claim that things are written in a manner in which they clearly are not.
I told you why it's not legal. Because it doesn't say it's legal. It says you can move in that environment. It doesn't allow you to attack because it doesn't say you can do anything other than move.
Here's an example: where, in the rules, does it say my first level human fighter can not attack through walls? Why can't I hit a guy on another side of the wall? Assume I have the reach to do so. Obviously, I can't.
Earth Glide allows movement. Just because you think it should make sense to also attack doesn't mean that it says you can attack in the rules.
Now, you claim otherwise. Please provide a quote saying you can attack. If it doesn't exist then you're mouth breathing on this issue.
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This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?
They readied actions to attack the limbs of such creatures, naturally. This feat is a limiter in disguise, not an extra option.* Without its existence, everyone would be able to do this by default, as they did in v3.5.
I have to say, I run it like RD.
If the creature isn't using a manufactured weapon, then, by definition, if its limb is close enough to strike you, then you are close enough to strike its limb.Note, this ability to target the attacking limb only applies to a person with the readied action, or from the person being attacked (in the case of AoO for unskilled maneuvers), not spectators during the next round, since the limb is only present for a fraction of the round.
*As are so many feats, see also Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Spirited Charge, Unseat, anything that lets you run in a curve, anything that lets you change your grip on a polearm, et al. None of these were needed in 1st/2ndEd; you just declared you were doing them, and you did.
Many of us die a little inside, when we hear the words "Includes dozens of new combat feats!", since what they actually mean is "We came up with feats for the things you were already doing, but now, you can't, since the existence of these feats implies that those things were never part of the general rules or the feats you've already been using.".
Yay for Feats! Crippling martial characters since their inception!
Hey guys, lets be clear what is being discussed here... Earthglide says:
A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
So the relevant wording here is 'pass thru... as easily as a fish swims thru water'.
That is not the type of wording you see for something that intends to say 'you treat earth as water for all purposes'.
Now, 'pass thru' doesn't seem strongly restricted to 'movement' per se... Swinging a battle-axe/fist normally is 'passing thru' the air... Although the latter half of the sentence is comparing this to a fish swimming thru water, which IS movement... So it seems pretty reasonable that movement IS the context, which 'pass thru' IS comptable with (if not the strongest possible wording to exclude non-movement effects).
IF one reads that line as applying to more things than just movement per se, does that mean Earthgliders should apply the -2 to-hit and half damage to Slashing and Bludgeoning attacks? (which seems to apply whether or not THE TARGET is in water/earth or not) To me, that line could have been written more clearely (in as just as few words) if the intent was to copy the effects of swimming in water more broadly... Thus I'm very sympathetic to the argument that Total Cover / the normal 'rule' that people can't attack thru solid objects still applies. Since sub-5' movement isn't really restricted (it's kind of part of the normal maneuvering of combat apart from Earthglide), I don't see why Earthgliders still can't be in an adjacent square of earth and attack from there, maintaining Total Cover off their turn, but exposing themself to attack (with Partial Cover) DURING THE ATTACK ITSELF, i.e. vs. Readied Actions.
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Ravingdork: Without the existence of Strikeback, exactly how do you attack creatures that you don't threaten? All attacks are predicated on threatening the opponent. Maybe you didn't play 3.5 that way, but creatures definitely aren't considered to occupy all of their Reach, and the squares they occupy is used to determine what can attack them. I do still think that Strikeback should have applied to AoOs as well as Readied Attacks, but if you play with me, then it does! :-)Because in the instant that they attack you, the part of them that is attacking is within your reach. A readied action should allow an attack against natural attacks with reach or a disarm/sunder on melee weapons with reach.
Maybe that's how it SHOULD work, logically... But by RAW, you need to Reach a square that the opponent occupies in order to attack it... Their Reach extending thru a square that you threaten does not present a valid target by RAW, even as a Readied Action. (without the Strikeback Feat) I am more than happy with house-ruling that anybody can in fact use the benefit of the Strikeback Feat (without having it), but per RAW, attacking via your Reach does not change the squares you occupy, and thus what squares are valid targets, in any way. Yes, that's dumb, but that's how it is per RAW.
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Targeting limbs requires called shots which did not exist in 3.5. You had to target the creature not its outstretched limbs.
While its true that creatures only typically occupy their space, they don't occupy all spaces within their full reach simultaneously (so you couldn't shoot at a point 2 squares away from an ogre, declaring you were going for its elbow), in the case of a creature specifically calling out that it is reaching into a certain square, it is both fair, and makes sense, that the person in that square be allowed to use a readied action (or if appropriate, an AoO) against the limb that you specifically stated you were reaching into that square.
If you weren't, then you would be unable to perform the readied actions or AoOs vs unskilled long-limbed grapplers, that were specifically called out in the 3.0/3.5 rules as being one way to prevent being grappled in the first place.
That's why we've yet to hear from the developers, because it's one of those situations that they look at, think "Really? People are really claiming to have problems adjudicating this?", and bin, under the heading 'Does not require an answer.'.
Snorter, OK, that 'makes sense' but I don't see how it corresponds to the rules.
It's a different rule set, but I wasn't aware that 3.5 'specifically called out' that you can take AoO vs. a creature with Reach advantage vs. you even though you don't threaten their square. PRPG also says unImproved Grappling provkes, but just like anything that provokes that occurs outside a square you threaten, you can't actually take an AoO against it. Was there something to counter that in 3.5? In any case, there ISN'T something to do that in PRPG... That goes for alot of things, like all other maneuvers actually. Of course, if you Ready vs. being attacked/grappled, when you are drawn into the adjacent square as part of the attack (in 3.5 it was the same squares) you can then attack them (it's kind of a grey area, but I would allow that with a Readied Action vs. any attack, even though normally your Readied Action would trigger JUST BEFORE an attack attempt, and in this case it could only happen JUST AFTER the succesful attack).
PRPG Grapple brings the target into an adjacent space, which I don't see the difference to 3.5's same space for purposes of attacking... After the Grapple is accomplished the target should be able to attack. Krakens (or -20 option Grabbers) can Move away after that (if they have the action) but they are at least momentarily open to attack from the now-adjcent target.
...I'm still not clear what in 3.5 allowed Grapple targets to take an AoO against creatures they didn't threaten...? I just checked the SRD and didn't see anything in the Combat chapter on Grapple that changed how attacks worked for that AoO, or anything that is different from PRPG in that regard. When I played 3.5, we well mixed it with our experience for 2nd Edition which likely wasn't 100% rules compliant either, but I don't think the 3.5 rules actually worked like some people here think... Though I could totally be overlooking something, in which case please inform me!
Yeah, I think that's how alot of people played, especially coming out of 2nd Edition...
Grapple actually said:
To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
So possibly provoking AoOs vs. OTHER nearby enemies, but not the main grapple target...
And note that the same-square part didn't happen until you MAINTAIN, NOT on the first round.I don't see it as that over-powering that Reach can avoid the AoO... Big Creatures are just better an CMBs all around... Probably EVERY character wished CMBs didn't generally provoke, but there isn't really any other advantage that big creatures get out of Reach. Also note that normal characters get the same benefit re: avoiding AoOs if they use Reach Weapons to deliver any CMB via a weapon... That's a good tactic any melee type should use, in fact. (strike back is also explicitly designed to work vs. that)
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*As are so many feats, see also Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Spirited Charge, Unseat, anything that lets you run in a curve, anything that lets you change your grip on a polearm, et al. None of these were needed in 1st/2ndEd; you just declared you were doing them, and you did.
Many of us die a little inside, when we hear the words "Includes dozens of new combat feats!", since what they actually mean is "We came up with feats for the things you were already doing, but now, you can't, since the existence of these feats implies that those things were never part of the general rules or the feats you've already been using.".Yay for Feats! Crippling martial characters since their inception!
Wait, you mean my urge to make feats part of the combat mechanics is natural?
*_*
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It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object.I might also say the same for incorporeal creatures. Sure they know that a creature is adjacent to them, and which adjacent squares are outside the wall, but they don't necessarily know which of these squares the creature actually occupies. Of course, that's just me.
Note, also, that this does not necessarily give line of effect for ranged touch attacks, etc., as the earth itself is still an obstacle to these effects, if not to your physical form and the items you carry.
You seem to read that like "you know there is a creature in one of the squares adjacent to you, but you don't know in which square", I read it as "you know if there is a creature in a square adjacent to you and you know that for each square", i.e. you know if there is a creature or object in the square in front of you, if there is a creature or object in the front left square and so on. So you know in which square is the creature. The creature still benefit from full concealment but you automatically pinpoint his location.
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This would also mean that while you might be able to "hear" a creature just outside the cave wall you are hiding in, you would have to target a random square, hope your target is in it, and still suffer total concealment unless you emerge from the wall in which you are hiding.There's actually rules for that> distance thru a wall, as well as for total darkness.
(i'm not really sure if those should stack... unless paizo intends for the standard wall to be transparent)
A Perception check with all relevant penalties should pinpoint any opponent... Concealment still applies.What's the worst case here? They attack you from underground probably with Miss Chance.
Your next action can be to Ready an Action to attack them back.
Or if they have Reach and you can't do that
(without that special Feat, which is so situational that very few people would have it),
you can instead Ready an Action to MOVE AWAY when you are attacked, making it almost impossible to hit you.Honestly, I do think feedback from Paizo would be interesting, and I think focusing on how they use/would use Earth Elementals in adventure encounters is crucial...
You place your large shield on the terrain. Most earthgliding creatures can't pass through metal and none of them can pass though wood. Now you aren't touching the terrain directly and have full cover from attacks from below. The earthgliding creature must chose between sundering your shield or exposing himself to attack you.
Any dense vegetation will help too. Climb on a tree, move over a tick mat of grass, they aren't earth and will give different levels of protection, depending on how dense and resistant they are.
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I'm not sure how, at low levels, a "it can hit me, but I can't hit it" enemy isn't breaking the game. Maybe you play it with some sort of additional house rule to balance it, I don't know.
But allowing a creature in the earth to attack is not the RAW. My point, written above, remains.
As far as the creature being uninteresting without the ability to hit while it's underground . . . well, that's just goofy. A creature is as interesting as you make it in the game. Combats are as interesting as you make them too. It's your choice if you use the elemental as a monolith of hit points, and nothing else. But you have more options, you can, for instance, charge through the earth (ending up outside the earth) and attack the unsuspecting players.
By the same logic a water elemental shouldn't attack from water, a air elemental while flying or a fire elemental should not start a fire and stay within it.
"It wouldn't be fair"a) the universe isn't fair;
b) there are solutions, if the characters (and players) don't want to work to find and apply them it is a problem of the players, not of the game system.
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Strike back is the only way to fight a earth elemental only if you want to fight it:
a) with a meele weapon;
b) while standing on bare earth or stone
Yes, if your only option is to fight against it at its condition and the best environment for it you have a problem. But there are plenty of materials that aren't earth or stone, plenty of locations where you aren't forced to fight as it dictate it.
Practically all man made structures without a dirt or a undressed stone floor will force the elemental to move outside the earth.
Most terrain, barring deserts, Arizona like scrub lands and high mountains have enough vegetation covering the ground to allow you to find a position where the elemental is forced to show itself to attack you.
Wall of ice on the ground? the elemental will have to smash through it.
Wall of iron? same thing.
A few wood planks will do that!
I read it as "you know if there is a creature in a square adjacent to you and you know that for each square", i.e. you know if there is a creature or object in the square in front of you, if there is a creature or object in the front left square and so on.
And that reading is accurate in terms of what the actual rule says:
It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location
The ability is talking about knowing what is in ANY given square, so you know the status of ALL adjacents square re: whether they are occupied by creatures or objects.
Re: the shield tactic... Honestly, that just sounds like a way to get a sundered shield, since them sundering it doesn't have any negative repurcussion for them and they can try until they succeed. Obviously, you can be running away during this time, and that is pretty effective to remove yourself from harm.
Give me a DC 25 jump check.
Learn where the burden of proof lies here.I've told you what the RAW allows here. I've told you that you are presuming otherwise.
What you have failed to do is provide a quote that says you can attack through the earth.
Burden of proof yes -- you are claiming what I'm doing isn't legal -- therefore proving you are right lies with you.
No rules say you have to jump in a straight line, so I will jump 10 feet ahead then shoot off at a 90 degree angle to finish the jump for the other 10 feet.
That is effectively flying. no jump check does that without GM Fiat. :)
Earthglide explicitly states that the earth reacts to the earthglider like water does to a swimming fish. If a fish with reach can attack something in the air above the water, or standing on the dock, then the tactic is also viable to an Earthglider.Abraham,
First, I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I just finding it frustrating when people claim that things are written in a manner in which they clearly are not.
I told you why it's not legal. Because it doesn't say it's legal. It says you can move in that environment. It doesn't allow you to attack because it doesn't say you can do anything other than move.
Here's an example: where, in the rules, does it say my first level human fighter can not attack through walls? Why can't I hit a guy on another side of the wall? Assume I have the reach to do so. Obviously, I can't.
Earth Glide allows movement. Just because you think it should make sense to also attack doesn't mean that it says you can attack in the rules.
Now, you claim otherwise. Please provide a quote saying you can attack. If it doesn't exist then you're mouth breathing on this issue.
That is not what it says. It say it can swim though it like a fish swims through water. A fish can not attack something above it because it can swim through it. It can do so based on the properties of water itself. Nothing in earthglide allows you to do anything other than swim.
If earth became like water to the earth elemental then the earth elemental could also see through it. Obviously earth glide does not allow earth to be treated as water since the earth elemental would be even more difficult to attack if not outright impossible for low level parties.
This feat was not in 3.5 so how were players supposed to defeat it then?They readied actions to attack the limbs of such creatures, naturally. This feat is a limiter in disguise, not an extra option.* Without its existence, everyone would be able to do this by default, as they did in v3.5.I have to say, I run it like RD.
If the creature isn't using a manufactured weapon, then, by definition, if its limb is close enough to strike you, then you are close enough to strike its limb.
Note, this ability to target the attacking limb only applies to a person with the readied action, or from the person being attacked (in the case of AoO for unskilled maneuvers), not spectators during the next round, since the limb is only present for a fraction of the round.*As are so many feats, see also Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, Spirited Charge, Unseat, anything that lets you run in a curve, anything that lets you change your grip on a polearm, et al. None of these were needed in 1st/2ndEd; you just declared you were doing them, and you did.
Many of us die a little inside, when we hear the words "Includes dozens of new combat feats!", since what they actually mean is "We came up with feats for the things you were already doing, but now, you can't, since the existence of these feats implies that those things were never part of the general rules or the feats you've already been using.".Yay for Feats! Crippling martial characters since their inception!
You can run it like that but the combat chapter says you must threaten a square a creature occupies. The area a creature occupies depends on its size, not how far its limbs can reach out.
Snorter, OK, that 'makes sense' but I don't see how it corresponds to the rules.
It's a different rule set, but I wasn't aware that 3.5 'specifically called out' that you can take AoO vs. a creature with Reach advantage vs. you even though you don't threaten their square.
That is because Snorter is confused. That was never a rule.
...you must threaten a square a creature occupies. The area a creature occupies depends on its size, not how far its limbs can reach out.
+1.
I don't know why this subject keeps coming up. If you can't reach the space the creature occupies, you do not threaten it. End. of. Story.
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Re: the shield tactic... Honestly, that just sounds like a way to get a sundered shield, since them sundering it doesn't have any negative repurcussion for them and they can try until they succeed. Obviously, you can be running away during this time, and that is pretty effective to remove yourself from harm.
Seeing how half of the argument is about the "impossible to fight small earth elemental, a CR 1 fight that will TPK the party":
a) a steel shield has an hardness of 10
b) the maximum damage of a small earth elemental is 10 and he can't critically hit the shield
So he will never sunder it.
Even with a larger elemental it all depend on what the obstacle is and how much time the elemental has.
If it was called with a summon spell it will last 1 round/level of the caster at most, so slowing it for a few rounds will greatly reduce its efficacy.
Another little thing: the speed of the elemental while earth gliding. If he is totally immersed in the earth he will be incapable to see its surrounding terrain. So its movement count as hampered movement, and all the squares movement cost is multiplied by 2.
Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
Poor visibility ×2
Tremorsense will not help with that, so unless he navigate with the head sticking out of the terrain, making it vulnerable, its speed will be halved.
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Movement <> Attack
If i did cast a spell that allowed a member of my party to a movement as imediate action, he cound´t make an attack even if attacking involves movementing.
Attack = Standard Action
Move = Move Action
(Str; Armor Check Penalty)
You know how to swim and can do so even in stormy water.
Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to half your speed (as a full-round action) or at a quarter of your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.
If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown. The DC for the Swim check depends on the water, as given on the table below.
Water Swim DC
Calm water 10
Rough water 15
Stormy water 20*
* You can't take 10 on a Swim check in stormy water, even if you aren't otherwise being threatened or distracted.
Each hour that you swim, you must make a DC 20 Swim check or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from fatigue.
Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action.
Special: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.
If you have the Athletic feat, you get a bonus on Swim checks (see Feats).
Don´t see any mention to attack in the swin skill.
Even if somehow earth elementals could fight in earth as if were "fish" in water, their slam attacks still would get -2 to hit and do half damage.