"With your blatant act of dark necromancy the gods cry out in outrage as the Caster-Martial Disparity beast rises from the blackened depths. Vomit catches in your throat as you witness its writhing mass shed the nerd rage oozes that feasted upon the rage marbled into its unholy flesh. As its many maws open and gibber once more a thousand peaceful worlds are ripped asunder and cast into the dark realms as only three comprehensible words are etched forever with a burning claw on your soul. I. Am. Back."Wait, I found it.
paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/gene ral/casterMartialDisparityBattlegroundNoCrying&page=26#1253
Crud.
Yes! Yes!
C-M D was meant to last forever! It is the C-M D thread to end all other C-M D threads! And I mean that quite literally... It's a lightning rod.
Some of you may remember the dark times, before that thread, when any other thread had a 30% chance of degenerating into that argument.
I want the letters C M D O P on my tombstone.
AMs main ability, if you have been paying attention, isn't Ragelancepounce. It's his ability to attack anyone before they see him. Ragelancepounce just ensures that one round is enough, what with 3d8+150 damage.
The problem, however, is that his abilities are depending on assumptions, which can't be clearly deduced from the rules.
The combat round is an abstraction, and AM is built on the notion that one character can be in combat while the other aren't. Normally this would be resolved through a surprise action. Surprise actions will often involve situations, where a character can get an action before they are able to see the enemy.
Apart from this, there are other parts where the rules isn't exactly clear, concerning the legality of mounted charge/pounce as well as lance/full attack.
I would like to see the build done, as well, eventhough it might not be accepted at my table.
I can understand the want for an answer to the over powered sense that casters wield at higher levels, but frankly melee characters wield that same sense early on, and can keep going after a heated battle the same day!Personally, I would never use a synthesist to prove a point. The rules change every week.
I'd rather just see AMs build when he doesn't have some silly competition to worry about. The caster/martial disparity is due to that martial types are at the mercy of high level casters. This is simple to see. Casters fundamentally have more options of higher consequences. Don't like that fighter? Planeshift him to the demiplane of acid you created. Deal with him later.
AMs main ability, if you have been paying attention, isn't Ragelancepounce. It's his ability to attack anyone before they see him. Ragelancepounce just ensures that one round is enough, what with 3d8+150 damage.
Any blue blooded wizard will be constantly invisible and flying by that point, with plenty of contingencies up should he be attacked in anyway.
Where are the rules that say you can't see beyond 800 ft in any direction? Maybe I missed something
Also, since the other side of the AM argument is over his ability to sunder magic, why not do something along the lines of stone shape (or stone to mud, mud to stone if he's on the ground) to trap him, or gate in an air elemental and cause a tornado, or a myriad of non save spells?
I have deleted my post and will be responding to both of yours in the appropriate thread. I
I do think that AM is the big throbbing exception to the rule.
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I would like to see the build done, as well, eventhough it might not be accepted at my table.
If a GM anywhere actually accepted AM at their table, I would question their sanity.
But I digress, as at this point this build has become about 2 things for me:
1) Making the single most flat-out freaking insane Barbarian that I possibly can. And let's face it, that's apparently pretty insane because I am also apparently pretty insane.
2) Being awesome. Because let's face it, the concept of an AM BARBARIAN build is a dude who comes out of freaking nowhere, kills you with a lance, and flies off into the sunset wearing sunglasses while going "BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER."
As far as the legality of a mounted pounce... it's a fine house-rule if you want to say they don't stack, but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't within the descriptions of the abilities. Charging on a mount is still charging.
Where are the rules that say you can't see beyond 800 ft in any direction? Maybe I missed something
Also, since the other side of the AM argument is over his ability to sunder magic, why not do something along the lines of stone shape (or stone to mud, mud to stone if he's on the ground) to trap him, or gate in an air elemental and cause a tornado, or a myriad of non save spells?
Perception checks get a -1 for every 10 feet of distance. This means your average character who put 20 points into perception can see... maybe 350 feet if they have it as a class skill and a 14 wisdom.
...And because AM would still be able to smash stone shape, spell sunder the summon, fly through the tornado, CHARGE through it even due to Dragon Style, and just murder you. Trust, me, we've had this discussion. The tornado's the only thing that worked, and it only worked on a 6 HD mount. At this point, I'm out of ideas and I've looked.
"With your blatant act of dark necromancy the gods cry out in outrage as the Caster-Martial Disparity beast rises from the blackened depths. Vomit catches in your throat as you witness its writhing mass shed the nerd rage oozes that feasted upon the rage marbled into its unholy flesh. As its many maws open and gibber once more a thousand peaceful worlds are ripped asunder and cast into the dark realms as only three comprehensible words are etched forever with a burning claw on your soul. I. Am. Back."Wait, I found it.
paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/gene ral/casterMartialDisparityBattlegroundNoCrying&page=26#1253
Crud.
Yes! Yes!
C-M D was meant to last forever! It is the C-M D thread to end all other C-M D threads! And I mean that quite literally... It's a lightning rod.
Some of you may remember the dark times, before that thread, when any other thread had a 30% chance of degenerating into that argument.
I want the letters C M D O P on my tombstone.
That seemed to end around when CoDzilla left the site.
I'm still kind of sad about that, I wanted to see AM make him cry. :(
Should the cohort also have the skilled perception evolution to get a +8 to perception since it is so important.
Should the cohort also have the skilled perception evolution to get a +8 to perception since it is so important.
Got that covered already, but yes it should.
I have only two and a half questions:
1. How is Am Barbarian seeing his target from 800+ feet away?
2. Is he seriously riding a Half-Elf Synthesist? Or is it some critter that looks like (or actually is) a dragon with a high enough Int to be able to take a bunch of levels of Synthesist instead of racial HD?
2.5. Where are AM BARBARIAN's followers?
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He's on a half-elf, doin' flips and s%%*.
I have only two and a half questions:
1. How is Am Barbarian seeing his target from 800+ feet away?
2. Is he seriously riding a Half-Elf Synthesist? Or is it some critter that looks like (or actually is) a dragon with a high enough Int to be able to take a bunch of levels of Synthesist instead of racial HD?
2.5. Where are AM BARBARIAN's followers?
1. The synthesist has wind oracle 1 for wind sight and a +63ish perception. He spots the enemy and relays specifics to AM, who calculates trajectory using his engineering degree.
2. Half elf synthesist raised by orcs (adopted, deadeye trait).
2.5. On the paizo forums, of course. :D
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2.5. On the paizo forums, of course. :D
ALL HAIL AM BARBARIAN!
Since there's a dip into Oracle for AM (AFAIK), may I recommend the Spellscar mystery?
Specifically the revelation that gives a +2 insight bonus to all saving throws vs spells and SLAs.
A good idea, but the basic AM BARBARIAN is straight barbarian 20.
I don't intend to sound foolish, but I do good job at it!
Is there a real build for all of this? Or is this a Harvey the Rabbit meets the Aristocrats kind of thing? The posted link takes me to a product page.
Trinam hasn't posted it yet.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure I know most of what he'll be doing.
Don't do this at home.
Taking Ferocious Mount, Greater Ferocious Mount, Beast Totem all the way to Greater, Superstitious, Spell Sunder, Witch Hunter, Reckless Abandon, Strength Surge
The mount is a synthesist with Mount and a frick ton of Flight evolutions, to add more speed. I'm not sure how he sees so far.
Barbarian has Power Attack, Furious Focus, Mounted combat, ride-by-attack, spirited charge at the very least. Possibly has Skill Focus(K(Engineering)). Definitely Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder.
Both should have Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude, and possibly the Improved versions of these. The mount is the weakpoint here, so there'll be a lot of defensive abilities I think. It'll probably have a level of Monk (Master of Many Styles) for the +2 to all saves, as well as the Dragon Style for all the buffs it'll have.
Might be a simple question. How do you get and just what is a Synthesist mount?
A good idea, but the basic AM BARBARIAN is straight barbarian 20.
Well, if you're up for it, I'd also recommend an "organic" version of AM, where you start at level 1 and go to 20, rather than just starting at 20.
AMY's organic build is much, much different than the one where you can start at level 13+.
I don't intend to sound foolish, but I do good job at it!
Is there a real build for all of this? Or is this a Harvey the Rabbit meets the Aristocrats kind of thing? The posted link takes me to a product page.
Trinam hasn't posted it yet.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure I know most of what he'll be doing.
Don't do this at home.
Taking Ferocious Mount, Greater Ferocious Mount, Beast Totem all the way to Greater, Superstitious, Spell Sunder, Witch Hunter, Reckless Abandon, Strength Surge
The mount is a synthesist with Mount and a frick ton of Flight evolutions, to add more speed. I'm not sure how he sees so far.
Barbarian has Power Attack, Furious Focus, Mounted combat, ride-by-attack, spirited charge at the very least. Possibly has Skill Focus(K(Engineering)). Definitely Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder.
Both should have Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude, and possibly the Improved versions of these. The mount is the weakpoint here, so there'll be a lot of defensive abilities I think. It'll probably have a level of Monk (Master of Many Styles) for the +2 to all saves, as well as the Dragon Style for all the buffs it'll have.
Might be a simple question. How do you get and just what is a Synthesist mount?
A Synthesist mount is a Half Elf synthesist archetype summoner with the mount evolution. He can be gotten with leadership. Much the same as dragon mounts can.
A good idea, but the basic AM BARBARIAN is straight barbarian 20.Well, if you're up for it, I'd also recommend an "organic" version of AM, where you start at level 1 and go to 20, rather than just starting at 20.
AMY's organic build is much, much different than the one where you can start at level 13+.
I will try, but I am hesitant to post a to 20 build for something that basically reads win pathfinder.
Unfortunately, unless there's something intrinsic to the barbarian, the wizard could see as far with the same eidolon.
There is a difference, though. Wizard had to have LoS to target a spell, and while the eidolon can see him, the wizard can't.
Actually, synthesists suck compared to the base summoner. AM just doesn't want to drag along a Casty.
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Actually, synthesists suck compared to the base summoner. AM just doesn't want to drag along a Casty.
This. The synthesist himself can't really use spells due to a lack of arms (bipedal, no evolutions), and its only attack is a vastly underpowered bite. It acts solely as a fast defense and perception juggernaut.
I picked synthesist because I didn't then want the response to be 'I automatically know where the summoner is and kill him.'
Your attempt to snipe was valiant, but lacking in proficiency. -4s are harsh, man.
I couldn't find where it was referenced before, but how did AM BARBARIAN smash through a readied stone shape and still pounce? Please forgive if this has already been answered.
By being out of the vision range of the wizard, thereby preventing a readied action prior to murdering a face in. Failing that, it depends on the GM's interpretation of how charge and readied actions works, as this is a grey area of the rules.
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because a synthesist could never afford to pick up arms... 2 evolution points are just too hard to come by.My snipe was at anyone who needs leadership to show a build is strong. They are in fact doing the opposite.
My X is awesome. Especially when I have extra leadership npc character Y tacked in to fill my Z weaknesses.
In the case of AM barbarian who makes awesome long distance mounted pounces, I think you are trying(I am not certain exactly though since I have not found the build yet) to get him a mount that can sense from far away, attack from far away, and survive up close. Something I have trouble believing the barbarian can do with his own class abilities.
If not for the fact that you can do the same thing only less 'ramped up to 11' with Mounted Fury, you might have a point. The only thing you miss out on is a 860 foot charge radius.
(And when you're using an 860 foot charge radius, 2 evolution points are quite hard to come by.)
Does the build need leadership? No, I dare say it does not. I could do the same thing with Mounted Fury, replacing Boon Companion over Leadership. The point of this build, however, is to test the very limits of how silly I can make a Barbarian, and since Leadership does make a much stronger choice objectively than MF/BC, naturally Leadership is the choice to make. And since the other stated goal of the build is to be awesome...
What's more awesome: A barbarian on a normal mount (albeit one that can fly and charge), or a barbarian on a Dire Unicorn-Dragon-Pegasus swooping in at nearly 100 miles an hour from the other side of a tornado spinning at the speed of awesome to deliver a drill that will pierce the heavens straight to your very soul?
The reason for my choice is crystal clear, I'd like to think.
a barbarian on a Dire Unicorn-Dragon-Pegasus swooping in at nearly 100 miles an hour from the other side of a tornado spinning at the speed of awesome to deliver a drill that will pierce the heavens straight to your very soul?
The reason for my choice is crystal clear, I'd like to think.
I think you may have just posted my favorite post in all of Ever.
see fair enough. All you had to say to clarify was "joke build". Sorry to pounce on your parade.
You are adorable.
Tell you what, you have any other points about the build, feel free to bring 'em my way and I'll be happy to address them asap.
I think you may have just posted my favorite post in all of Ever.a barbarian on a Dire Unicorn-Dragon-Pegasus swooping in at nearly 100 miles an hour from the other side of a tornado spinning at the speed of awesome to deliver a drill that will pierce the heavens straight to your very soul?
The reason for my choice is crystal clear, I'd like to think.
I do what I can.
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yeah. how fast can you get a barbarian animal companion to go? How far away can you sense enemies without a synthesist npc as a crutch? How do you get a flying animal companion as a barbarian(so far I am thinking overland flight... that is 30ft/60 on a charge). How are you finding flying mind blanked invisible enemies w/out a synthesist and how are you charging at flying targets from outside their visual range? Leadership? These are the kinds of question that come up if you are being serious.
Without leadership your whole build relies on a 16 hd animal. Imagine that it dies(its at most 250 hp can go in a round at lvl 20). I can't get more specific than that though since I haven't seen the build yet. Had one been made?
Anyway, glad to bring some cuteness to the thread. good luck on your quest to smash the notion of caster superiority.
PLEASE ALLOW BARBARIAN TO GO DOWN LIST FAIRLY QUICKLY, TO BEST RAGELANCEPOUNCE ARGUMENT. FAR ENOUGH TO SMASH CASTY, NEARLY 200 FEET IF AM CORRECT, POSSIBLY MORE. POLYMORPH ANIMAL COMPANION INTO THING THAT AM ABLE TO FLY WITH BLINDSENSE. BLINDSENSE. PERMANENT ARCANE SIGHT. HIGH PERCEPTION CHECK PLUS BLINDSENSE. BARBARIAN MAY HAVE GOTTEN SOME ANSWERS MIXED ROUND, BUT AM ALL THERE SOMEWHERE. CASTY HAVE INT, RIGHT? BARBARIAN SURE CASTY AM FIGURE OUT.
16 HD ANIMAL AM SURPRISINGLY RESILIENT WITH FREE IMPROVED EVASION (ANIMAL COMPANIONS AM GETTING THAT. CASTY AM REMEMBERING THIS, RIGHT? BETTING NOT) AS WELL AS BARBARIAN SUPERSTITCHIN BONUS. AM HONESTLY EASIER TO KILL BARBARIAN. WHICH AM IMPOSSIBLE, SO. WELL, BARBARIAN LEAVE CASTY TO DRAW OBVIOUS CONCLUSION. BARBARIAN NOT EXPECTED DO ALL WORK ROUND HERE.
BARBARIAN FEAR CASTY MISSED SOMETHING: ARGUMENT AM ALREADY OVER. BARBARIAN AM WINNER. FAR BETTER CASTYS TRIED OVER 21 PAGES TO BEAT BARBARIAN, AND ONLY MANAGE TO KILL BAT, AND ONLY IF BATTY BAT AM 6 HD BAT. AM PRETTY SAD KINDA.
CASTY MISSED MEMO. BATTLE AM ALREADY OVER, BARBARIAN AM WINNER. BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
SQUISHY CASTY JUST MISS MEMO, SHOW UP TO BATTLE LATE WITH NO PANTS.
SILLY CASTY, AM NEVER NEED FOR SHIRT. PANTS AM MANDATORY.
How is the initial charge considered to be done in anything other than a Surprise Round?
How is the initial charge considered to be done in anything other than a Surprise Round?
EXCELLENT QUESTION. IF BARBARIAN AM AWARE OF CASTY BUT CASTY NOT AWARE OF BARBARIAN, AND BARBARIAN AM ENTERING UNITIATIVE AND SPENDING STANDARD ACTION, BUT CASTY STILL NOT AWARE OF BARBARIAN... AM THAT MEANING BARBARIAN AM STILL IN SURPRISE ROUND AND ONLY ABLE TO USE STANDARD ACTION?
IF NOT, THAT AM HOW. IF SO... WELL, BARBARIAN NEED GET TO 430 FT CHARGE. CLEARLY, BARBARIAN STEALTH BEHIND MOUNT. CASTY AM NEVER SEE IT COMING.
Pretty sure something like that is down to a DM call, then.
Hmm. What's your initiative bonus like, AM?
Pretty sure something like that is down to a DM call, then.
Hmm. What's your initiative bonus like, AM?
AM UNSURE, BUILD AM YET TO BE FINALIZED. ROUGH ESTIMATES PUT AT LIKE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 6 AND 10.
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yeah cause imp evasion protects them from enemy full attacks.
WAIT.
BARBARIAN MUST HAVE FAILED PERCEPTION CHECK.
AM CASTY... INSINUATING... BEST WAY FOR CASTY... TO DEAL WITH BARBARIAN... AM FULL ATTACK?
IN MELEE?
...
WITH BARBARIAN STANDING RIGHT THERE?
FOR SERIOUS?
ALSO, POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT AM HAVING DURATION ABLE TO BE PERMANENCY IF BARBARIAN RECALL CORRECTLY. AND IF CASTY AM IN RANGE TO DISPEL BUFFS, BARBARIAN AM IN RANGE TO SMASH CASTY. AM KIND OF SILLY TO DISPEL WHEN IT AM MEANING CASTY INSTANTLY DIES.
AM UNSURE, BUILD AM YET TO BE FINALIZED. ROUGH ESTIMATES PUT AT LIKE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 6 AND 10.Pretty sure something like that is down to a DM call, then.
Hmm. What's your initiative bonus like, AM?
Decent. To be on the safe side, build-wise, I'd be sure to throw in things to help go first in that first round, if you aren't already. Granted, it kinda makes the extra super long distance on the flying charge mainly for show, but, well, dang if it ain't showy. If you can't look awesome while doing something, as a BARBARIAN (as opposed to just a barbarian), what's the point, really?
TRUE. AWESOME AM HALF OF BEING BARBARIAN.
ALSO, BARBARIAN WONDER WHERE CASTY AM GETTING IDEA OF 30 FT FLY SPEED? AND SPELL SUNDER ON MINIONS WHO AM PROVOKING AOO? WHICH THEY AM, BARBARIAN USE REACH WEAPON.
CASTY NEED THINK THINGS THROUGH, NOT JUST THROW RANDOM STATMENTS OUT THERE WITHOUT FACT TO BACK UP. AT LEAST PRETEND HAVE LOGIC, NOT SAY THINGS TO JUST SAY THEM.
WHAT AM YOU, SOME KIND MARTIAL CHARACTER? PEE-SHAW.
casty has long duration summoned minions who can do that for casty.
Which one, or ones?
well casty is flying all the time. Casty can quickened greater dispel on AM BARELY FLYING and then barbarian is not flying and casty is 100% out of reach. Casty seems happy with his decision.
What are you targeting with the dispel magic? Also how are you casting a 10th level spell? How are you out of reach of a bow?
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BARBARIAN NOTE CASTY HAVE NO ACTUAL EXAMPLES, ONLY 'CAN TOTALLY DO THIS.' SCHRODINGER CASTY AM ABOUT TO MEET LANCE OF OBSERVED STATE.
BARBARIAN PUT MONEY ON LANCE. AM SMART BET.
SCHRODINGER CASTY AM ABOUT TO MEET LANCE OF OBSERVED STATE.
That quote just totally made my night.