OBJECT AM CONSTRUCT, CONSTRUCT AM SNEAK ATTACKABLE.
Actually objects are only constructs if they are animated.
NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK ABRAHAM SPALDING
*AM NINJA SNEAK ATTACKS ABRAHAM SPALDING AND KILLS HIM, BUT DOESN'T APPEAR*
Abraham, I've noted that you haven't really countered any of my points.
NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK ABRAHAM SPALDING
*AM NINJA SNEAK ATTACKS ABRAHAM SPALDING AND KILLS HIM, BUT DOESN'T APPEAR*
Pfft, I have an Irish/Italian wife that I provoke for funsies, you're a character on a sheet of paper. Bring it on, I got a lighter.
Abraham, I've noted that you haven't really countered any of my points.
Funnily enough I noted you've not made any points, unless you logged in the wrong profile or something.
Pfft, I have an Irish/Italian wife that I provoke for funsies, you're a character on a sheet of paper. Bring it on, I got a lighter.NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK ABRAHAM SPALDING
*AM NINJA SNEAK ATTACKS ABRAHAM SPALDING AND KILLS HIM, BUT DOESN'T APPEAR*
AM NINJA HAVE IMPROVED EVASION, AM NINJA AM FIREPROOF.
Abraham, I've noted that you haven't really countered any of my points.Funnily enough I noted you've not made any points, unless you logged in the wrong profile or something.
I did edit my post, so you might have missed that, It was a bit of a hodge-podge anyway so I'll go ahead and re-iterate here.
Firstly I'll deal with the assumption that you even get to cast a spell.
1. How exactly are you planning to avoid the surprise round with the +60 perception modifier required for the distance between you and AM? (Now I'd like to point out, while several others have argued the fairness of this, none have attempted to deny that it does in fact happen, since it follows the RAW completely.)
2. Assuming you do, I see you don't have a high dexterity, nor have you mentioned any method to make sure you actually go first. Do you have anything for this?
3. Failing that do you actually have anything to survive being RAGELANCEPOUNCED by AM?
4. I also advised you check readying actions, and the charge actions section as I'm sure you will see that you can't actually interrupt a charge with a readied action if you do, as both the movement and attack are part of the charge action and not individual actions on their own, and you are required to use your readied action just before the action you wish to interrupt (at which point he will be out of range of colour spray)
Secondly,
5. Even with everything you've posted AM still has about a 30% chance to pass (and assuming you don't have persistent spell, a re-roll), this isn't a point so much as a statement that you do not really have a reliable strategy here.
6. Assuming you manage to address the previous points, we enter a situation of you successfully casting colour, and stunning am for a round, can you kill him in one round?
7. If you can't, how do you deal with him simply closing his eyes rendering him incapable of seeing the colour spray thus rendering it useless? I am aware he will of course be blind then, but I feel he still wont have much trouble taking you down by that point, after checking the blindness rules.
Abraham, I've noted that you haven't really countered any of my points.Funnily enough I noted you've not made any points, unless you logged in the wrong profile or something.I did edit my post, so you might have missed that, It was a bit of a hodge-podge anyway so I'll go ahead and re-iterate here.
Firstly I'll deal with the assumption that you even get to cast a spell.
1. How exactly are you planning to avoid the surprise round with the +60 perception modifier required for the distance between you and AM? (Now I'd like to point out, while several others have argued the fairness of this, none have attempted to deny that it does in fact happen, since it follows the RAW completely.)
By the fact he can't charge me, he doesn't have line of sight.
2. Assuming you do, I see you don't have a high dexterity, nor have you mentioned any method to make sure you actually go first. Do you have anything for this?
First you still assume he has a means of hitting me -- I've already pointed out the several means of travel he simply can't do anything about (earthglide for example) and the methods of cover that haven't been over come yet.
3. Failing that do you actually have anything to survive being RAGELANCEPOUNCED by AM?
By obviously not being ragelancepounced -- it requires line of sight which I never intend to give him.
4. I also advised you check readying actions, and the charge actions section as I'm sure you will see that you can't actually interrupt a charge with a readied action if you do, as both the movement and attack are part of the charge action and not individual actions on their own, and you are required to use your readied action just before the action you wish to interrupt (at which point he will be out of range of colour spray)
Again inrelevant since he still hasn't provided a means of charging without line of sight.
Secondly,5. Even with everything you've posted AM still has about a 30% chance to pass (and assuming you don't have persistent spell, a re-roll), this isn't a point so much as a statement that you do not really have a reliable strategy here.
I freely admit he could pass the save throws To date we don't know he has ride by attack however, or his range of passing by -- if he's charging from extreme range (which again he can't do without line of sight which he doesn't have) then he'll land right beside me. However he has a 30% chance per spell granted that's not horrible... but there's two spells to consider putting him at about 15%. Again that means 15 times out of a 100 I might have a problem. However I'm pretty confident that even if he does manage to kill me he probably won't hit my clone (which isn't there), so I'm not actually dead -- this is of course ignoring the heavens oracle's ability to simply reincarnate after being 'killed'. Effectively he hasn't won -- which is to say he has lost. AM BARBARIAN has claimed for total success over any casty -- at the point the casty doesn't stay dead or isn't killed AM BARBARIAN has failed in his life commitment. Moving pass that will be something for future concern, aka I'll worry about it later.
6. Assuming you manage to address the previous points, we enter a situation of you successfully casting colour, and stunning am for a round, can you kill him in one round?
If I stun him he's dropped his lance and I honestly don't need to kill him. The shame of not killing a casty will be enough to finish off AM on its own.
7. If you can't, how do you deal with him simply closing his eyes rendering him incapable of seeing the colour spray thus rendering it useless? I am aware he will of course be blind then, but I feel he still wont have much trouble taking you down by that point, after checking the blindness rules.
Technically he's still not blind has he has the ability to see which is all that is required of color spray -- nothing about the spell states that closing your eyes will handle it in any way shape or form. There's also the point that if his bat goes stunned he's losing altitude immediately to the tune of 300 feet a round. Batty probably isn't going to like 20d6 of fall damage -- here's hoping it doesn't kill him.
However again if he is blind he's not charging, if he's not charging he's much more manageable.
Beyond all this the exercise for me is not currently to defeat AM BARBARIAN -- after all he currently doesn't exist. The point for me is to point out issues he's going to have to deal with.
Something that seems to be forgotten is a caster can easily have a much higher perception check that AM BARBARIAN due to free feats and possible racial bonuses that AM BARBARIAN currently doesn't have, since you know he currently doesn't exist (much like the oracle actually).
The real test of any 'ultimate unbeatable uber build' isn't how good it looks before you see it -- it's after it's on the table.
AM BARBARIAN currently has the following problems:
1. He can't overcome the need for line of sight to use observed state.
2. He can't guarantee he will make his saves.
3. He doesn't exist.
4. We don't actually know what his spot check is.
After we get pass the doesn't exist, can guarantee line of sight and his save throws then we can move on to other strategies -- as of right now though he can't live up to his claim of smashing any casty.
Also I did address the survival of the first round of observed state -- he can't charge something he can't see.
Couple of points:
Death attack on AM won't work. Uncanny dodge requires a Sneak Attack to be +4 levels higher then the dodger. You can't Death Attack a barb with Uncanny dodge..he'll never be flat footed to it.
AM BARBARIAN now gets to add +3 to all his mental scores, since there's a casty playing the age game. AM, please advance your age to venerable, with a Nacrous Grey Ioun stone that eliminates all physical penalties from aging.
==
I note these arguments about line of sight never indicate how casties are going to have line of sight to AM, to even know he's around to cast it.
Plus, fog cutting goggles, and any illusion cast gets a Will save.
And of course AM Barb has Guardian on the Raging SPiked Gauntlet +5 on his fist, for another +5 to all his saves...so that's a bit higher will save, now...+3 points of Wisdom effectively countering your own venerable age.
===Aelryinth
So from what I've gathered, you never actually come up from earthglide... so you never spot each other and the fight never happens. This is the same problem we ran into with ring of invisibility and mind blank.
Also, the spell states that if you can't see it, it doesn't work
I'm fairly certain if his eyes are shut he can't see it.
I'm not sure how you can actually counter that.
The real issue here is 3, because in addressing it I aim to address 1, 2, and 4.
That said, it is currently Abraham's job to figure out ways to screw up my build. He is giving food for thought.
Some of it may get discarded as irrelevant after determining ways to solve other portions of it.
Also PLEASE STOP TELLING ME HIS GEAR I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.
The real issue here is 3, because in addressing it I aim to address 1, 2, and 4.
That said, it is currently Abraham's job to figure out ways to screw up my build. He is giving food for thought.
Some of it may get discarded as irrelevant after determining ways to solve other portions of it.
Also PLEASE STOP TELLING ME HIS GEAR I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.
? I have only mentioned you having things that you've already stated is a part of your build. I apologise if I've been presumptuous.
I note these arguments about line of sight never indicate how casties are going to have line of sight to AM, to even know he's around to cast it.Plus, fog cutting goggles, and any illusion cast gets a Will save.
Illusions give will saves when you interact with them, until then no they don't and neither does invisibility.
However the problem I see no reason for a caster to engage.
LOOK THAT FLOATING WALL OVER DERE RADIATING ILLUSION MAGIC. JUST LIKE MOVING CLOUD OF STUFF RADIATING CONJURMATION MAGIC. THINK MIGHT BE MAGIC.
I'd say we have interaction, people.
===Aelryinth
Now, take this with a pinch of salt as I may be wrong, but Triniam did list at one point having a gem of true seeing. If I'm correct that cuts out the illusion problem.
Also how are you gaining the Earth glide?
This is why i think that everyone who thinks they can outdo AM should make their builds while Trinam finishes AM and then we can see with no one building around the theory of countering whats listed on the Character Sheet of the other.
I can do this. I can beat AM BARBARIAN. But it won't be like you think. I'll do this as a mental exercise to show you why a non-wizard has little chance against a wizard in a fight. It's a losing battle for any non-wizard to battle a wizard save for perhaps a cleric.
I'll toss up a real simple build that will win the day tonight. Don't even need bells a whistles.
Now, take this with a pinch of salt as I may be wrong, but Triniam did list at one point having a gem of true seeing. If I'm correct that cuts out the illusion problem.
Sure for how many minutes a day? Is he going to check every cloud that floats by?
Again AM BARBARIAN is on the crusade, as a caster I probably wouldn't be bothering with some simple barbarian out in the world -- I got bigger and better things to do with my time. IF he wants to make me the center of his reason for existence that's his choice -- doesn't mean I have to return the favor. So let him spend his time searching every single passing cloud to be sure it's not a casty in disguise.
Also how are you gaining Earth glide
Well I'm willing to bet the oracle won't. But here's the thing -- AM BARBARIAN has to worry about every caster out there in the world since he wants to beat them all. Which means he has to worry about druids... who don't have to worry about him.
In order for AM BARBARIAN to succeed and be what he claims to be he must be the hunter -- and he can't hunt something that is earth gliding.
You all are ignoring one very key component of my posts still I am not trying to beat AM -- again I have no reason to he doesn't exist.
However Trinam specifically asked for cases that could give AM trouble -- I am delivering such cases to him so he can try and find ways around them.
I personally am secure in the thought that AM is going to end up just like the legendary always prepared caster that never actually gets posted, because at this point that is still all he is.
It's exactly the same "well I do this" "well I had this prepared" "well of course I had those feats" -- pfft just like the legendary wizard who will have all the buffs up all the time and always be ready and never be caught unaware and never runs out of spells.
This is gonna be one of those threads that never die isn't it. Around 10k comments old timers will harass new commenters. " I was here way back 'round 500 comments an' I seen it all. You dinna know anything ya whipper snapper."
This actually reminds me of my Lockdown Thread on the WoTC optimization boards.
I posted a Stand Still Fighter build in great detail and how to equip it. Promptly all the casters started poo-pooing it, until I pointed out how easily it killed them all, and it went on for twenty pages. It was a Lockdown build, designed to freeze enemies in place, with enough spare feats and the gear to be a caster-killer, so they started treating it like a caster vs martial tournament...
Anti-magic shell is a great thing. One guy even had a Polymorphed Cylinder hat that would revert inside an A-M shell and drop down around him to protect him when an A-M Shell enveloped him. He didn't quite know what to do when it got sundered, however...
As there are 3.5 feats that allow AoO's on even swift actions, with Mage Slayer, once you got in range of a wizard, he was dead. It was pretty amusing watching some of the stuff they tried to come up with...basically it again came down to initiative. Unlike AM, Fighters in 3.5 didn't have saves that glorious...but Mind Blank did provide blanket immunity. Would have killed for Spell Sunder and Superstitious...
BTW, if AM gets Mind Blank, don't forget the +8 Resistance bonus to will save!
===Aelryinth
AM doesn't have to check all the clouds and walls, Abraham. He has to check the ones that are magical.
All of which brings to mind the fact that, what are the casters doing continually surrounded by fog and illusions? They can't see, either.
Note that AM doesn't need to wear fog cutting goggles, either. Batty Bat can, charge up, and when 5' away AM can see the casty just fine to finish the charge.
===Aelryinth
Are we doing 20 point buy stats or 15?
AM BARBARIAN, make sure to have your henchmen specced out, spells, magic items, and everything. He's dying first. You shouldn't even have brought him to the fight. But then again, he is the only reason you have a snowball's chance in hell.
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This is why i think that everyone who thinks they can outdo AM should make their builds while Trinam finishes AM and then we can see with no one building around the theory of countering whats listed on the Character Sheet of the other.I can do this. I can beat AM BARBARIAN. But it won't be like you think. I'll do this as a mental exercise to show you why a non-wizard has little chance against a wizard in a fight. It's a losing battle for any non-wizard to battle a wizard save for perhaps a cleric.
I'll toss up a real simple build that will win the day tonight. Don't even need bells a whistles.
Interesting. I assume by 'win' you don't mean 'run away and just claim victory because I avoided AM altogether,' either.
This should make for some fun. :D
Are we doing 20 point buy stats or 15?
I've been assuming 20.
AM doesn't have to check all the clouds and walls, Abraham. He has to check the ones that are magical.
All of which brings to mind the fact that, what are the casters doing continually surrounded by fog and illusions? They can't see, either.
Note that AM doesn't need to wear fog cutting goggles, either. Batty Bat can, charge up, and when 5' away AM can see the casty just fine to finish the charge.
===Aelryinth
I'm also curious how he knows which clouds are magical and which ones aren't. After all you can only permanency arcane sight on yourself and even then it only has a range of 120 feet. I highly doubt AM and BATTY BAT are flying after every possible cloud in the sky in order to get within 120 feet of it to tell if it is magical or not.
Also Batty Bat can't charge because he doesn't have line of sight or blindsight (which would kind of grant line of sight)... he only has blind sense which doesn't allow for a charge line and even then his range of that is actually shorter than arcane sight. Even if batty bat could that doesn't mean AM can charge, since he still can't, however it's cute you argued for uninterpretable charges before and are now interrupting them (that was you right? No no it wasn't that was Nevernever regardless if he's right AM still can charge when Batty Bat is since even at 10 feet out he doesn't have line of sight).
The casty doesn't need to see -- again he's not looking to engage a barbarian. He's probably on his way to his book club. I'm actually trying to assume the caster isn't out gunning for AM BARBARIAN because such a case really works against AM from the outset.
I mean win as in using the advantage of the wizard to kill an annoying nuisance of a barbarian permanently who thinks he can challenge the wizard.
You might kill me initially. But I'll be back. And you'll die eventually. Killing is an experiment to me as a wizard. When you die, doubtful you'll return.
Is this only about you winning based solely on one combat? Or is it you'll win in a protracted fight against a wizard? If this is all about you getting one kill against a wizard build, you can probably do that. Alot of martial classes can do that.
If this is about you beating a wizard over a long-term fight, I can beat you easily. Will hardly be a serious challenge. More of a minor inconvenience.
While I'm at work tonight, I'll post my initial build including Leadership for killing AM BARBARIAN and maybe even making you my slave. That might even be more interesting.
I mean win as in using the advantage of the wizard to kill an annoying nuisance of a barbarian permanently who thinks he can challenge the wizard.
You might kill me initially. But I'll be back. And you'll die eventually. Killing is an experiment to me as a wizard. When you die, doubtful you'll return.
Is this only about you winning based solely on one combat? Or is it you'll win in a protracted fight against a wizard? If this is all about you getting one kill against a wizard build, you can probably do that. Alot of martial classes can do that.
If this is about you beating a wizard over a long-term fight, I can beat you easily. Will hardly be a serious challenge. More of a minor inconvenience.
While I'm at work tonight, I'll post my initial build including Leadership for killing AM BARBARIAN and maybe even making you my slave. That might even be more interesting.
The problem you're going to run into there is the first time I kill you I get to take your stuff.
That then blows WBL out of the water.
Are we doing 20 point buy stats or 15?I've been assuming 20.
Cool. I see so few posters taking real advantage of the wizard on this thread. There is a real reason guys like Big Norse Wolf can't stand them. It has little to do with the one spell win or even the spell combination win. It's that even if you win a battle, you're eventually going to die to a well-prepared wizard.
And you've given me Leadership. Too much advantage for me.
I'll do this at work. It will be up tonight some time most likely. I don't intend to spend much on gear since this is an ideal build. Just a few key items. Armor class means almost nothing to me.
I apologise Abraham, I actually thought you'd come forward with a level 20 oracle that you'd thrown into the fray, that's why I've been dissecting your posts.
Are we doing 20 point buy stats or 15?I've been assuming 20.Cool. I see so few posters taking real advantage of the wizard on this thread. There is a real reason guys like Big Norse Wolf can't stand them. It has little to do with the one spell win or even the spell combination win. It's that even if you win a battle, you're eventually going to die to a well-prepared wizard.
And you've given me Leadership. Too much advantage for me.
I'll do this at work. It will be up tonight some time most likely. I don't intend to spend much on gear since this is an ideal build. Just a few key items. Armor class means almost nothing to me.
I'm interested in seeing what you can come up with, now.
I have known from the outset that half of beating a casty is knowing how they think. I like to -think- I've done a pretty good job on my own as I am generally forced to play our group's casty, but no man can know everything. Looking forward to whatcha got, man.
I apologise Abraham, I actually thought you'd come forward with a level 20 oracle that you'd thrown into the fray, that's why I've been dissecting your posts.
No problem I've done worse I'm sure.
The biggest problem I see is finding a way for AM BARBARIAN to identify targets.
I mean a full 20 level wizard in full plate with still spell is going to walk right by him and he'll never know, since he's busy only busting up flying things that have robes and no monk weapons (quarterstaff doesn't count).
I'm still noting the complete lack of means to consistently tell what is and is not a casty in disguise... and considering disguises come as cheap as a hat of disguise or simply buying some full plate in this case (or something that *looks* like full plate) while AM lacks a means of regularly and at a distance detecting magic he's pretty much set up for a continuous fail on his hunt.
The very idea that a level 20 wizard would be flying somewhere is a bit funny to me, after all... why? At that point a wizard is a bit like a grand wyrm dragon... better things to do than just waste time flying around. However if I was to do it I would assume that I probably don't want everyone and their friend knowing that there is a wizard doing such and take steps to hide the fact that I am just that.
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I apologise Abraham, I actually thought you'd come forward with a level 20 oracle that you'd thrown into the fray, that's why I've been dissecting your posts.No problem I've done worse I'm sure.
The biggest problem I see is finding a way for AM BARBARIAN to identify targets.
I mean a full 20 level wizard in full plate with still spell is going to walk right by him and he'll never know, since he's busy only busting up flying things that have robes and no monk weapons (quarterstaff doesn't count).
I'm still noting the complete lack of means to consistently tell what is and is not a casty in disguise... and considering disguises come as cheap as a hat of disguise or simply buying some full plate in this case (or something that *looks* like full plate) while AM lacks a means of regularly and at a distance detecting magic he's pretty much set up for a continuous fail on his hunt.
The very idea that a level 20 wizard would be flying somewhere is a bit funny to me, after all... why? At that point a wizard is a bit like a grand wyrm dragon... better things to do than just waste time flying around. However if I was to do it I would assume that I probably don't want everyone and their friend knowing that there is a wizard doing such and take steps to hide the fact that I am just that.
He does have one way to identify a casty - spend a standard action to glare suspiciously at them if they come within 120 ft. His permanent arcane sight then tells him whether they're a casty, whether they're arcane or divine, and the highest level of spell they can curently cast. Unless they're mind blanked, I suppose. But at that point we have the argument of whether he can see the abjuration aura of the mind blank spell, and so on. (Don't let's get into whether mind blank hides magical auras on the caster from detection. That's already been hashed out pages ago, with no real resolution.)
on the subject of armored casters, I once saw a 3.5 guide to a Mystic Theurge Armored Tank. Would a fullplated cleric or theurge have any advantage over the unarmored?
[Q
I mean a full 20 level wizard in full plate with still spell is going to walk right by him and he'll never know, since he's busy only busting up flying things that have robes and no monk weapons (quarterstaff doesn't count).I'm still noting the complete lack of means to consistently tell what is and is not a casty in disguise... and considering disguises come as cheap as a hat of disguise or simply buying some full plate in this case (or something that *looks* like full plate) while AM lacks a means of regularly and at a distance detecting magic he's pretty much set up for a continuous fail on his hunt.
The very idea that a level 20 wizard would be flying somewhere is a bit funny to me, after all... why? At that point a wizard is a bit like a grand wyrm dragon... better things to do than just waste time flying around. However if I was to do it I would assume that I probably don't want everyone and their friend knowing that there is a wizard doing such and take steps to hide the fact that I am just that.
You know it's funny that you are the first person to propose an idea that actually allowed a casty to interact with the world and not be a hermit living in a constant blanket of protection and invisibility spells?
Congratulations. Your character has a social life.
I do think you are over thinking this Abraham, AM was kinda a unintentional bit of awesome. The idea of casters hiding and the rest only came in after about 700 pages of posts had shown that the direct approach just wasn't working. By this point I think AM has very much proven his point,that casters can bleed too.
While I agree it's very difficult to actually kill a prepared caster, before these threads how many casters would have put this much effort into defending themselves from a single classed barbarian?
Plus the idea of all these caster walking round with 24 hour mind blank/invisibility rings, earth gliding, and various other methods that, lets be honest, they probably wouldn't have bothered having up before that highly amuses me.
Besides, no-ones actually come up with a reliable way to kill off AM yet, so that suggests a end to this whole "caster-martial" debate in my opinion.
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Over 1000 posts, and the best any of the castys have come up with thus far is avoiding AM BARBARIAN. I consider the point not only made, but etched into adamantine.
Although I have no interest in MMOs, I'm half tempted to get Pathfinder Online and create AM BARBARIAN, and scour the servers hunting down and killing any castys I might encounter. :P
I don't intend to have much stuff. I don't really need it to beat you in the first confrontation. I can go out naked until you kill me and still have what I need to kill you later. You'll see what I do to counter you. I have the basics of my build.
Going with:
Gnome Wizard (Diviner) 20
S 6 D 10 C 18 I 16 W 10 Ch 15 (with racial)
Some of his feats: Toughness, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Eldritch Heritage (Infernal-Pit Touched), Improved Eldritch Heritage (Tough as Hell), Leadership.
Average hit points should be: 312 (with Greater False Life 341, when Polymorphed approaching 421.)
My cohort:
Dwarf Druid 18
Some feats: Toughness, Boon Companion, Skill Focus Perception, Alertness.
Perception should reach: +21 base +6 skill focus +4 alertness +9 wisdom +9 domain ability =+49 (can probably enhance it more with spells and magic items).
Animal (Feather) domain.
Probably have a Large Cat as a pet. Probably a lion or tiger.
I will expend money first:
1. I will have a clone.
2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
4. I will then use lesser planar binding to summon a succubus who I will force to do my bidding. I will force her to disguise herself as me and fly about outside my domicile. I will watch her with a greater scry spell as she does so. At the distance you are attacking from, it is doubtful you will make the necessary Sense Motive or Percption to see that she is not me.
5. Once you have attacked the succubus and killed her and I will gather information on you either by watching you kill her or speaking to her dead spirit once I put her body back together. Then it will be my turn.
6. Wait until you aren't raging and send a variety of minions including CR 20 outsiders to kill you and your henchmen. Make you expend a ton of rage rounds beating said minions. Once you are expended or perhaps during the fight, you are meat toy to play with.
I'll continue the build, but you get the gist of what I'm going to do to you.
The main problem with fighting a wizard is I have far, far more options than you do with nothing more than changing a spell. So I can expend feats and such building up my hit points and still retain a massive amount of versatility.
I'm probably going to use a Reached Euphoric Tranquility to completely elimnate you from the combat. Destroy your henchmen. Then annihilate you. What do you have to counter a Reached Euphoric Tranquility?
Just an FYI, I chose a druid for the massive summoning ability. I intend to wear you down before I take your life and soul.
I do think you are over thinking this Abraham, AM was kinda a unintentional bit of awesome. The idea of casters hiding and the rest only came in after about 700 pages of posts had shown that the direct approach just wasn't working. By this point I think AM has very much proven his point,that casters can bleed too.
While I agree it's very difficult to actually kill a prepared caster, before these threads how many casters would have put this much effort into defending themselves from a single classed barbarian?
Plus the idea of all these caster walking round with 24 hour mind blank/invisibility rings, earth gliding, and various other methods that, lets be honest, they probably wouldn't have bothered having up before that highly amuses me.
Besides, no-ones actually come up with a reliable way to kill off AM yet, so that suggests a end to this whole "caster-martial" debate in my opinion.
You are incorrect. There is a reason for contingency spells. And magnificent mansion and mind blank being a 24 hour duration.
All casters realize that their survival depends on being paranoid. Do you think AM BARBARIAN is the only build that is dangerous to casters?
The following can kill an ill-prepared caster:
1. Stealthing rogue.
2. Archer
3. Two-handed fighter
4. Barbarian
5. Charging Cavalier.
6. Other caster of almost any kind. You think we enjoy a cleric saying "Surprise, destruction" with our low fort saves? or a Sorcerer hammering us with spells before we hammer them.
7. Tons of stealthing, sneaky monsters with very dangerous special abilities.
Preparation and paranoia are what the wizard is all about. Casters are not physically tough. They have to rely on their ability to prepare and use magical tactics well to survive.
The only reason a caster can steal the glory or survive easily most of the times in big fights is because he gets to cast the ideal spell from far away because Meat Shield, Healer, and Extra Damage Guy are taking the creatures attention.
The entire reason I know I can beat AM BARBARIAN or any other martial type is because I know how to use the advantages of the wizard. And that advantage is not standing in the open in a toe to toe fight hoping the opposition doesn't make a lucky save and get to retaliate.
My advantage is in preparation for as many different circumstances as possible, it happens in this order:
1. Survive onslaught: This is the first order of preparation for any caster.
2. Discern enemy: Find out who it is, what it can do, and what its weaknesses are.
3. Devise strategy to kill: Devise the proper strategy to destroy your enemy.
4. Execute Strategy: Execute strategy while still having in place precautions for number one.
This is the wizard. This is why they are hated. Wizards played by bad players are not what martial types complain about. It's wizards played by smart players that know how to do the aforementioned steps with a high level of competence that drives the martial players to complain.
The truth is that AM BARBARIAN's build and strategy are set once he puts it in place. And Mr. Wizard's job is to counter it once AM BARBARIAN has found a way to get the first strike to get the kill.
I have devised one strategy for countering his first strike ability above. I have quite a few more at my disposal.
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My advantage is in preparation for as many different circumstances as possible, it happens in this order:
1. Survive onslaught: This is the first order of preparation for any caster.
2. Discern enemy: Find out who it is, what it can do, and what its weaknesses are.
3. Devise strategy to kill: Devise the proper strategy to destroy your enemy.
4. Execute Strategy: Execute strategy while still having in place precautions for number one.
Of course, the real problem with this plan is that, against AM, sucessfully completing step #1 will be exceedingly difficult.
Of course, the real problem with this plan is that, against AM, sucessfully completing step #1 will be exceedingly difficult.My advantage is in preparation for as many different circumstances as possible, it happens in this order:
1. Survive onslaught: This is the first order of preparation for any caster.
2. Discern enemy: Find out who it is, what it can do, and what its weaknesses are.
3. Devise strategy to kill: Devise the proper strategy to destroy your enemy.
4. Execute Strategy: Execute strategy while still having in place precautions for number one.
I already came up with four ways to counter. Did you not read the previous post?
1. 340 hit points.
2. Previously used divinations to determine attack followed by countermeasures to draw out enemy.
3. I also have a contingency up that teleports me away from the battle if I take more than 50 hit points in a hit. So there is a third method.
4. Henchmen with insane Perception.
So already did number one. Waiting for AM BARBARIAN's counters.
I want the final build. I'd like to know how the Synthesis Eidolon doesn't sleep considering the Summoner himself is still a humanoid and still requires sleep to recover spells and such. How does the summoner, who is fused with the eidolon, avoid fatigue. He also must have spent almost every single evolution point on flight to move at the speed he is moving at and large size. Which means his eidolon has very other abilities.
I plan to hit him with a mage's disjunction while he's sleeping. Eliminate his permanent arcane sight and any other enhancements. And make him and his henchmen save for every piece of his gear while he's not raging. See how well he does.
I also intend to show up with as whole ton of minions all of us veiled to look the same, see how many he can see through.
I might even use an illusion to hide a wall spell since he has to follow the straight line of the charge. That will stop him in his tracks.
I'll use the summoned fiends to chain cast word spells until his eidolon fails a will save and is banished while he is flying on it when I teleport in out of nowhere. Watch the two of them plummet to the ground.
Let me see. How many powerful summoned minions can I have.
A horde of elder air elementals to create hard to fly circumstances for him.
gate in a balor or similar creature to chain words.
Get True Name twice for a couple of 18 hd Planetar's, Astradaemons, or some other such creature.
Two Greater Planar Binding spells to summon in a few more powerful outsiders.
Then my henchment can summon in a bunch of giants and elementals as well as use his Lion to wrestle with the Eidolon. He has pounce and grab. I'll make sure to get him the Grapple line unless of course everyone has Rings of Freedom of Movement.
So let me see, the minimum I'm bringing to the party:
1. A 20 hd outsider
2. 4 18 HD outsiders
3. 1d3 Elder Elementals from me
4. 1d3 Elder Elementals from my henchmen
5. A big old lion animal companion buffed to the gills
6. A Storm Giant
Then there is me and my lvl 18 druid.
All against old AM BARBARIAN and his synthesist eidolon. I'll place money on my group.
HEY AM,
SAW AM PARTY IS FULL OF POUNCY BUDDIES. AM DWARF CLERIC HAVE DIVINE POWER/TOUCH OF RAGE/LANCE POUNCE ON KITTY KAT. SMASHED AM HOLY VINDICATOR FOR JOB OF PARTY BUFF MASTER.
CAN ONLY DIVINE POWER/TOUCH OF RAGE/LANCE POUNCE 3/DAY. BUT THAT ENOUGH. REST OF TIME AM DWARF CLERIC JUST CHANNEL TO MAKE AM PARTY MORE AWESOME.
SEE LINKY IF CHECK DWARF GOOD ENOUGH FOR AM PARTY!
(AM NOT SQUISHY CASTY, SO HOPEFULLY ALL COOL)
I've thought about this some more.
Here is my ready action on the surprise round:
1. Cast when attacking target comes within sight and spell range. My ready action is wall of suppression. If you're committed to the charge, you will have every magic item you own suppressed for 21 rounds unless they are caster level 21 or above. All your abilities must be recalculated including damage.
This counters the following:
1. If AM BARBARIAN readies an action to charge and disrupt spellcasting, I don't cast. So his ready action does not trigger. He stays where he is.
2. Move to full round, repeat. Until AM BARBARIAN charges without attempting to disrupt spellcasting.
3. I use a free action on the surprise round to tell my henchmen to ready our defenses. My henchmen will start the defense buffing process to impede AM's attack and eliminate his mobility advantage, possibly by placing several huge Elder Earth Elementals as walls.
This is why i think that everyone who thinks they can outdo AM should make their builds while Trinam finishes AM and then we can see with no one building around the theory of countering whats listed on the Character Sheet of the other.I can do this. I can beat AM BARBARIAN. But it won't be like you think. I'll do this as a mental exercise to show you why a non-wizard has little chance against a wizard in a fight. It's a losing battle for any non-wizard to battle a wizard save for perhaps a cleric.
I'll toss up a real simple build that will win the day tonight. Don't even need bells a whistles.
Actually, no you can't. The simple act of making "a build" to specifically take on AM BARBARIAN means he wins as a build. This may be heading into logical fallacy territory but think of it this way: AM BARBARIAN is a build designed to take on all castys. If said castys make a build to specifically take him on then we have come full circle by which will also be invalidated because AM BARBARIAN is being designed to take on ALL castys.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the fact that people are putting this much time and effort into trying to kill ONE imaginary Barbarian with magic proves how powerful the build can potentially be even though it isn't complete yet. That means AM wins.
This is why i think that everyone who thinks they can outdo AM should make their builds while Trinam finishes AM and then we can see with no one building around the theory of countering whats listed on the Character Sheet of the other.I can do this. I can beat AM BARBARIAN. But it won't be like you think. I'll do this as a mental exercise to show you why a non-wizard has little chance against a wizard in a fight. It's a losing battle for any non-wizard to battle a wizard save for perhaps a cleric.
I'll toss up a real simple build that will win the day tonight. Don't even need bells a whistles.
Actually, no you can't. The simple act of making "a build" to specifically take on AM BARBARIAN means he wins as a build. This may be heading into logical fallacy territory but think of it this way: AM BARBARIAN is a build designed to take on all castys. If said castys make a build to specifically take him on then we have come full circle by which will also be invalidated because AM BARBARIAN is being designed to take on ALL castys.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the fact that people are putting this much time and effort into trying to kill ONE imaginary Barbarian with magic proves how powerful the build can potentially be even though it isn't complete yet. That means AM wins.
I didn't do anything special. Handling him the way I might handle someone else. So no. He doesn't win.
You and so many others don't understand the argument. AM must make a build that can beat a top wizard build or at least put up a reasonable challenge. That is on him.
All the wizards have to do is show how they beat him. I just showed how I beat him without resorting to the mindless insanity he is putting into his build. I'm using a very basic build that any wizard can use not only to beat AM, but to adventure with.
If AM wants to make a separate thread and go back and forth, I'm ready for it. This is not just a matter of spell options. This is also about effective use of actions and an entire strategy for crushing a martial build AM thinks can take out castys.
The build can't do it. I'm already showiing tons of chink in the armor for how it would really play out if this situation were to actually occur. He must counter how I'm handling him.
We wizards are even giving AM his little sit 600 feet away or whatever attack. He's basically assuming we wizards are flying around like idiots. And WE WIZARDS are allowing him to decide this.
So tell me again who wins? A guy who needs to have the situation set up for him like a slow fastball across the plate for a power home run hitter or we wizards who are more likely to have the advantage.
Come again with who wins. If you're missing the point:
1. Winner: Standard wizard with common build that you can use for standard adventuring. Which is my build. Nothing special to it.
2. Loser: Outlandish barbarian build with very limited useability that relies on perfect terrain and henchmen with an outlandish Eidolon build.
My wizard isn't even a Schroderinger's Wizard like some.
My normal wizard does the above tactics. Why do you think I can toss so many tactics off the top of my head? I'm the wizard in my group. I'm the nightmare for the DM in my group. I don't use a lot of these one trick pony metamagic tricks so many other wizard players in this thread use.
I know spells. I know their uses. I also know actions, movement, concealment, what outsiders can do what, costs associated with summoning outsiders, and a variety of other factors that go into being a master wizard and the reason people claim their is a Caster-Martial Disparity to begin with.
No. AM BARBARIAN won nothing by concocting an outlandish build to challenge wizards.
I just beat him with a build I'm using on a character right now. Only change I made is my character is a human evoker and this guy is a gnome diviner for a little more min-max action for hit points.
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1. I will have a clone.2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
Nice ideas. The only problems are the inherent limitations of the spell. Let us take Contact Other Plane--at 20th contacting a deity in an outer plane is trivial and has the best response rate. There is still a 10% chance it lies or randomly answers. So AM BARBARIAN is practically knocking on your door and the greater deity says "nah, every things cool go outside in your jammies today."
Commune with nature has an inherent limitation in miles/level which means 20 miles max (though your cohort is lower level). AM BARBARIAN is moving very fast an could likely be outside your "hey what's up nature" zone.
Planar binding requires an opposed charisma check. Notice the succubus has a 27 charisma and you have a 15. She will win those checks much more often than you do. You can also only offer once every 24 hours. Now you could keep several bindings going on at once to increase the chance than on a particular day you will succeed but you increase the chance of escape as that is also charisma based.
As far as I can tell, the majority of caster builds have been constantly flying.
This eliminates concerns about how AM identifies casters and avoids squishing commoners in expensive clothing: the castys are all floating off the ground with no visible means of support.
Isn't that the assumption AM BARBARIAN is making? That his 10 intelligence mind somehow outthought we 30 itelligence wizards and caught us flying around with our pants down? Isn't that the assumption AM BARBARIAN is making? He certainly isn't trying to pound through our tower defenses with hidden doorways, reinforced stones, possibly entirely invisible, guarded by summoned outsiders, and leaving us with plenty of time to prepare our spells before he even finds us is he?
The entire reason AM BARBARIAN can kill us wizard players is because he's assuming he is some random barbarian going around killing flying casty's. Which begs another question: If AM BARBARIAN is doing this, wouldn't a bunch of casters come together to put him in the ground since some psychotic barbarian randomly killing wizards is a danger to them all?
So once again, tell me why AM BARBARIAN'S build requires a stupid wizard player to work if it's such a "winner" build? Therein is the reason why his build doesn't even come close to challenging wizard superiority. The entire build is based on a wizard playing in way most wizard's would not play.
The way AM BARBARIAN has it set up is like asking boxer one to fight boxer two blind-folded, with one armed tied behind his back, hopping on one leg. Then Boxer 1 declares himself himself the winner because he was able to knock out boxer 2. Why don't we reverse this and make the barbarian the guy being hunted? Then we'll see how it goes eh.