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To take a step back from some of the dialogue and make a general statement:
I don't really care what method is used (there are some dice-rolling and point buy methods that I'd like to try if I got the chance - as well as the elite NPC array). What I care about is why.
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because they love the awesome nostalgia or because it's an honored tradition or because they enjoy the experience of everyone discovering their stats together as a group or something else like that, then great! Sign me up!
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because point buy is for munchkins or something like that, then I'm leaving.
I care a lot less about people's actions than about their motivations. If you do it because you're fond of it, great. If you do it because it lets you feel superior to people who do otherwise, then leave me out of it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think you can see what I am trying to point out, right? It's that you can't take a power gamed set from one side and compare it to a normal set on the other side.
Can you see what I'm trying to point out? That the powergamed set from the rolling side is the norm for that side? That was my whole point: near as I can tell, most people are using generous rolling methods that give better scores than most point buys. If you have data to suggest that 4d6DL is what most rollers do, then fine. But as far as I know (based on this and other threads), most rollers are using better stats than most point buyers.
Well, Gary created D&D with accurate simulation in mind knowing full well not everyone is created equal, and it was an inherent part of his plan. I happen to agree with it.???
What
???
All along I didn't know that rolling stats was a comment on how us humans are all different. If only simulation of reality was my goal during character creation..
I'm going to go ahead and deduce that neither of you have played Chainmail or 1E.
Early versions were indeed combat simulators more so than the role playing games we know today. They took realism to a level that complicated matters extensively.
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Life is NOT Equal so why should ALL Characters be equal.And you can't choose your race and gender so why should your character?
Maybe he has an 18 int but could not afford training as a wizard so you can be a sucky but smart rogue.
If that is the case your players should not get to pick their gender or race.
Do you make them roll it? Pull out of a hat? Do your male characters toss a fit if they had to play a female? Or a 1/2 when in reality they wanted to be a male Gnome?
OH and yes some people in this day and age do pick their genders. Some even try to pick their race.
To take a step back from some of the dialogue and make a general statement:
I don't really care what method is used (there are some dice-rolling and point buy methods that I'd like to try if I got the chance - as well as the elite NPC array). What I care about is why.
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because they love the awesome nostalgia or because it's an honored tradition or because they enjoy the experience of everyone discovering their stats together as a group or something else like that, then great! Sign me up!
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because point buy is for munchkins or something like that, then I'm leaving.
I care a lot less about people's actions than about their motivations. If you do it because you're fond of it, great. If you do it because it lets you feel superior to people who do otherwise, then leave me out of it.
~Claps~
I am sure I could argue with you about walking out... but why bother. You hit the nail on the head.
If someone runs around screaming munchkin... they probably are one.
By 1E do you mean OD&D? I've heard that AD&D (also known as 1E to most people) is really similar to 2E, there's just less stuff and a few more restrictions?Well, Gary created D&D with accurate simulation in mind knowing full well not everyone is created equal, and it was an inherent part of his plan. I happen to agree with it.???
What
???
All along I didn't know that rolling stats was a comment on how us humans are all different. If only simulation of reality was my goal during character creation..
I'm going to go ahead and deduce that neither of you have played Chainmail or 1E.
Early versions were indeed combat simulators more so than the role playing games we know today. They took realism to a level that complicated matters extensively.
In AD&D, there were things like weapon type vs armor type, weapon speeds, and many other mechanics that could make your head spin. It was very difficult to play RAW, because of the complexity of the system.
As much as I hate to say it, and hopefully this isn't going to be taken the wrong way ...
Since it's inception, every version of D&D has become a dumbed-down version of its predecessors. Not to say there's anything wrong with that, but Gary was painfully thorough in his mechanics.
If a large part of the fun for the players is rolling stats, I really don't get what kind of game it's supposed to be.
Whenever this subject comes up you always ends up hearing the "I've been playing for 30 years/This is not a MMO" lines. Please, just stop it. It really doesn't help your cause.
Before 3rd ed, rolling stats was indeed more pertinent: Playing the character that came with the stats (as opposed to tailoring the stats for the character) was part of the game.
The game doesn't pretend to exist as such anymore. A player will go through many different characters in its career (thanks to the comparatively alarmingly fast level gain of 3 ed), experiencing many different built, concepts and permutations of character options. The "try to develop a character with the stats you where given" approach of the game has shifted to "customize your own character as you want it".
Without being negative or pejorative, this new approach is similar to that of MMOs and many computer games. For those who have been playing for 30 years, it IS a major shift.
'findel
To take a step back from some of the dialogue and make a general statement:
I don't really care what method is used (there are some dice-rolling and point buy methods that I'd like to try if I got the chance - as well as the elite NPC array). What I care about is why.
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because they love the awesome nostalgia or because it's an honored tradition or because they enjoy the experience of everyone discovering their stats together as a group or something else like that, then great! Sign me up!
If I join someone's game and they tell me we're rolling stats because point buy is for munchkins or something like that, then I'm leaving.
I care a lot less about people's actions than about their motivations. If you do it because you're fond of it, great. If you do it because it lets you feel superior to people who do otherwise, then leave me out of it.
Right on, man. We don't roll stats to be superior. After all, the average rolls are nearly identical. It's just something we've always enjoyed doing.
I recall when we began our most recent campaign, and the DM said it was time to roll stats. You could feel the excitement.
If he had said, "Time to assign points," there would have been nothing to get excited about.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For those who have been playing for 30 years, it IS a major shift.
'findel
And there's definitely nothing wrong with embracing familiarity. GM tells me we're rolling stats because it's familiar like a comfy sofa, I'll smile and tell him I'm happy there's room for me on it.
I think you can see what I am trying to point out, right? It's that you can't take a power gamed set from one side and compare it to a normal set on the other side.Can you see what I'm trying to point out? That the powergamed set from the rolling side is the norm for that side? That was my whole point: near as I can tell, most people are using generous rolling methods that give better scores than most point buys. If you have data to suggest that 4d6DL is what most rollers do, then fine. But as far as I know (based on this and other threads), most rollers are using better stats than most point buyers.
I am going to have to disagree with you on what most people are using. What we see here on the thread is a vocal minority. NOT a useful sampling by any stretch. I am basing what people use most on personal experience, which while it is biased is certainly a better sampling than web warriors on a hot topic thread.
it is so powergamey to choose your own race... geez
That depends on why you're choosing that specific race.
Before 3rd ed, rolling stats was indeed more pertinent: Playing the character that came with the stats (as opposed to tailoring the stats for the character) was part of the game.The game doesn't pretend to exist as such anymore.
Sure it does. The Standard method of generating stats in PF is roll them on 4d6, drop lowest.
A player will go through many different characters in its career (thanks to the comparatively alarmingly fast level gain of 3 ed), experiencing many different built, concepts and permutations of character options. The "try to develop a character with the stats you where given" approach of the game has shifted to "customize your own character as you want it".
I think the idea of trying to develop a character with the stats you were given is still there and quite strong. The fact that there are alternative ways to play and more ways to deliberately develop a character as it rises in level doesn't change that. Whether you prefer to develop what you get by the rolls or customize the character exactly as you want it is more a question of specific styles of play a table may or may not embrace.
If a large part of the fun for the players is rolling stats, I really don't get what kind of game it's supposed to be.
Whenever this subject comes up you always ends up hearing the "I've been playing for 30 years/This is not a MMO" lines. Please, just stop it. It really doesn't help your cause.
Before 3rd ed, rolling stats was indeed more pertinent: Playing the character that came with the stats (as opposed to tailoring the stats for the character) was part of the game.
The game doesn't pretend to exist as such anymore. A player will go through many different characters in its career (thanks to the comparatively alarmingly fast level gain of 3 ed), experiencing many different built, concepts and permutations of character options. The "try to develop a character with the stats you where given" approach of the game has shifted to "customize your own character as you want it".
Without being negative or pejorative, this new approach is similar to that of MMOs and many computer games. For those who have been playing for 30 years, it IS a major shift.
'findel
My experience with the 2nd edition (When a paladin required namely a 17 in cha) was rolling up stats. Wasn't the difference between a 9 and a 14 for most stats almost non existant? The first pages of my player's handbook(in french) explained how to play Yo de Gourt:
Str :8Dex:14
Con:13
Int:13
Wis:7
Cha:6
Which is hardly what we see in this very thread regarding rolled stats and the various methods presented. Stats do not have the same value now and the shift happened 12 years ago.
/facepalm
He meant to choose your race at all. It was a joke.
And yet, in humor, you sometimes find the truth.
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Doesn't validate anything you brought forward so far regarding the superiority of rolling stats or that a 7 is supposedly a debilitating curse making you unable to function.
So yes... some of us have been playing the game in some form of it's rules set for 30 or more years. Even with those changes PF is still D&D, and 3.5 is still D&D on down the line.
I would suggest picking up 1st Edition books as in those books it actually describes abilities. I also believe Dragon did as well.
/facepalm
He meant to choose your race at all. It was a joke.
ROFL
Although I did randomly select a race and class once... it was very fun... just not very effective in combat.
I would suggest picking up 1st Edition books as in those books it actually describes abilities. I also believe Dragon did as well.
If I can't tie my shoes with 8 in dexterity(according to your previous post), no thanks.
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Although I did randomly select a race and class once... it was very fun... just not very effective in combat.
I could see that being fun... though maybe not if you also rolled ability scores in order. :P
But what if everyone's (pre-racial) scores were identical, like a string of 14s? So every halfling would be 12/16/14/14/14/16 and every elf would be 14/16/12/16/14/14, etc. Then you randomly choose a class (the somewhat flat ability scores keep you from being forced into a terrible combination, like an elf fighter with 6 CON or something).
That could be fun. :D
EDIT: Those base numbers are probably too high. But you all get the idea, I'm sure.
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Life is NOT Equal so why should ALL Characters be equal.And you can't choose your race and gender so why should your character?
Maybe he has an 18 int but could not afford training as a wizard so you can be a sucky but smart rogue.If that is the case your players should not get to pick their gender or race.
Do you make them roll it? Pull out of a hat? Do your male characters toss a fit if they had to play a female? Or a 1/2 when in reality they wanted to be a male Gnome?
OH and yes some people in this day and age do pick their genders. Some even try to pick their race.
We do not roll anything, we like players to be even and have a choice in what they play. I ask why anyone would make stat rolls mandatory saying"not everyone is equal, you can't choose how you are born" would not by the same logic roll race gender and socio-economic background to know what professions are an option?
We do not roll anything, we like players to be even and have a choice in what they play. I ask why anyone would make stat rolls mandatory saying"not everyone is equal, you can't choose how you are born" would not by the same logic roll race gender and socio-economic background to know what professions are an option?
Life is NOT Equal so why should ALL Characters be equal.And you can't choose your race and gender so why should your character?
Maybe he has an 18 int but could not afford training as a wizard so you can be a sucky but smart rogue.If that is the case your players should not get to pick their gender or race.
Do you make them roll it? Pull out of a hat? Do your male characters toss a fit if they had to play a female? Or a 1/2 when in reality they wanted to be a male Gnome?
OH and yes some people in this day and age do pick their genders. Some even try to pick their race.
It's been done.
Back in the day, the role playing challenge was role playing what you were given by the dice, not what you just decided to be.
That's probably why many old-timers refer to the newer versions of D&D as MMO-like.
If Gygax had based stat generation on your dart-throwing ability with a dartboard with possible scores written on it, people would still be arguing it's the best and most fair method.
If Gygax had based stat generation on your dart-throwing ability with a dartboard with possible scores written on it, people would still be arguing it's the best and most fair method.
Originally, it was done with paper 'chips' pulled out of a cup.
;)
I've not once argued 'my' method is the best, only the one preferred by our group.
When compared to the 15-point buy system, numerically, it's nearly identical. The only variance is a little thing called luck, which can be good or bad, but always chaotic.
I chose to be a half-orc
Actually, your daddy and your mommy chose for you to be a half-orc...
I guess someone needs to be introduced to HowItShouldHaveEnded.com.
Huh. Never seen the sight.
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I'm reposting this because I never got a reply and I'm sincerely hoping it was just glazed over with the page turnover. (Fortunately I am still able to delete the original posting of this post.)
So IF your average person has a stat of 10 - 12 and you have a person that plays with lower... Do they FULLY rP THIS?
Example a Person with a 7 or 8 Int... Does he talk as his character would? Some with with the IQ of Forest Gump. Hi I'm Mongo, TMongo Kill orcs? Mongo hate orcs. Mongo smash Orcs. Mongo strong? Mongo not not stupid...
Except Forest Gump doesn't talk that way... he speaks slowly and he takes time to go over his words, but he doesn't talk like some reject from an old Tarzan movie.
Dex... Do they stumble and fall all the time. Do they have a hard time tying their shoes? Do they trip? Do they fall behind when the party is trying to flee the monster?This is the DM's responsibility to call for Acrobatics checks when the character is in legitimate danger of falling. Assuming the character puts ranks into acrobatics, they will very quickly outgrow this handicap.
Wis... Do they just jump in head first into the room never once thinking of the consequences? Do they fall for buying the magic Widget of do absolutely nothing because it is just that... worthless? Do they down the potion without first thinking of the situation?Having a low wisdom doesn't make you suicidal, it makes you less wise. You might rush in some times when there's something specifically inciting you (hot blooded sort of thing) or they may occasionally fall for the conman (sense motive ranks will work towards overcoming this) but again, these are aspects that may influence the character, they do NOT control him.
Con... Get sick anytime the weather turns fowl? Talk like they have a stuffy nose? Puke when they see the blood and guts of the dead? Puke and gag when they walk into a room of filth?Fortitude Saves.
...
EXAMPLES!!! All that they are. And if you base it all on dice rolls... Well you can figure that out...
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that imply very ugly backstoryActually, your daddy and your mommy chose for you to be a half-orc...
I chose to be a half-orc
Hey sometimes the adventurers's mercy for the orc lord's harem can lead to love......
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But in my opinion, it all started with the reroll button.This feels like a pretty astute observation.
One of my friends had a "method" of rolling dice where he'd do the 4d6/drop the lowest method... but he'd sit there rolling dice until he rolled an 18 and THAT would be the first die roll of his character.
Had another friend who wrote a computer program that would generate stats using the 4d6/drop lowest method, but only report on results where the average ability score was 16. Wonder of Wonders, his character ended up with having all 16s for ability scores.
And ANOTHER friend would simply roll up three or four pages of stats (that's about 250 or so characters) and then picked the set he liked the best.
All of which, to me, feels like behavior that was encourage by that pesky reroll button, since all of these "methods" were popular among my college friends at about the time Pool of Radiance and those games first hit.
Although I did randomly select a race and class once... it was very fun... just not very effective in combat.
I could see that being fun... though maybe not if you also rolled ability scores in order. :P
But what if everyone's (pre-racial) scores were identical, like a string of 14s? So every halfling would be 12/16/14/14/14/16 and every elf would be 14/16/12/16/14/14, etc. Then you randomly choose a class (the somewhat flat ability scores keep you from being forced into a terrible combination, like an elf fighter with 6 CON or something).
That could be fun. :D
EDIT: Those base numbers are probably too high. But you all get the idea, I'm sure.
I like assigning scores in order... ~sigh~ Even if no one else does.
As for your set array, well no one can say it isn't fair. I would be willing to try it once and see how it worked. My only concern would be the cookie cutter feel of it. But for one game, why not? I mean my power gamer friend made me play with an array containing an 18 and two 16s once. But he was GMing so he made the rules. Man he made his enemies tough as well... it felt like an epic battle every time we encountered anything.
By 1E do you mean OD&D? I've heard that AD&D (also known as 1E to most people) is really similar to 2E, there's just less stuff and a few more restrictions?Well, Gary created D&D with accurate simulation in mind knowing full well not everyone is created equal, and it was an inherent part of his plan. I happen to agree with it.???
What
???
All along I didn't know that rolling stats was a comment on how us humans are all different. If only simulation of reality was my goal during character creation..
I'm going to go ahead and deduce that neither of you have played Chainmail or 1E.
Early versions were indeed combat simulators more so than the role playing games we know today. They took realism to a level that complicated matters extensively.
In AD&D, there were things like weapon type vs armor type, weapon speeds, and many other mechanics that could make your head spin. It was very difficult to play RAW, because of the complexity of the system.
As much as I hate to say it, and hopefully this isn't going to be taken the wrong way ...
Since it's inception, every version of D&D has become a dumbed-down version of its predecessors. Not to say there's anything wrong with that, but Gary was painfully thorough in his mechanics.
I've played 1st edition. And Gary was often painfully thorough in his mechanics. No problems there. But what you did was to ascribe a motive to Gary that happens to mesh with your motives, and I don't think that there is any evidence of such a thing.
Chainmail was invented to simulate small-scale unit combat. Each figure represented 20 combatants, with no individualized stats at all.
Early D&D rules recommended that the user own a copy of Chainmail, and the d20 was considered an alternate system (which eventually became the standard.
In 1e the difference between stats was strange, to say the least. A 9 Str was as good as a 15 in terms of combat. Who is the stronger? Why, it's the 15, naturally. And of course, the person with the higher STR got bonus XP, (sarcasm on)just like in real life, where people gifted with more natural talent learn faster than those who have to work harder for it (sarcasm off). Unless you had to bend bars or lift gates, why, then the 15 STR person was 7 times more likely to succeed. But using a battleaxe in combat? No difference.
I don't think Gary had some plan to demonstrate the horrible inequities of genetics or to demonstrate that life wasn't fair. I think Gary wanted to have fun playing fantasy/medieval games (because that's what he said). I think he used dice because that was what was done at the time, and yeah, old-school RP is different than the modern stuff we have now. But don't try to use necromancy on Gygax to support your position; that's more than a little tacky. I also find it odd that no one has actually addressed my arguments upthread. Either you like to gamble or you don't. That's it. Gary's rules were ununified, overly complex in some places, completely absent in others. Should we bring weapon speed factors back just because Gary used them?
Don't do it. Don't drag Gary (or any other dead people) into this pointless debate on who has more fun, the point-buyers or the rollers. I'm asking you, please. Unless you find a proven citation, this is uncool. And irrelevant. And the last thing I want is real life's inequities intruding on my fantasy alter-ego, anyway. I'm a clumsy, ignorant crab in real life, why would I want to pretend to be one in my dreams, too?
I'm gonna have to side with what has already been said by others: that random stats are a relic from the past, and its mostly the nostalgia factor speaking. No wonder that the supporters of the random stats are each proposing their own tweaked houserule for that: they used it and accostumed it to their group so much that it's their natural way of doing it. There is nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean that you have to be stuck with a method only because you used it for years.
As for "here's a random character, roleplay it" approach, I actually do like it. Here in Italy, where PFS is not common yet, D&D tournaments alway had the random assignments of a pregenerated character. It's fun to step in someone else's shoes for a while, sitting at the table without knowing who you'll be next, but none of these characters are decided by the dice gods. You get one at random, but they aren't randomly generated, for the reason stated above. And I still prefer coming up with my own interesting character concept anyway. Something I'd hardly call "MMO-like".
Sometimes. Often though playas are gonna play. For many power gamers optimization is the aspect of the game they enjoy the most. Telling them to stop optimizing is likely to fall on deaf ears and they will just min-max regardless or they won't really have a lot of fun. PB and other character construction rules lets them do what they enjoy without completely throwing the balance of the game out the window.
The powergamers want to roll stats. Trust me on this. Point buy is how you reign them into something realistic.No, it does not. They will dump stat and min/max scores to achieve the best possible array for their characters.
Game rules do not stop powergaming. Only honest communication can.
What he said.
But it is our game now, not Gary's. The fact that he intended it a particular way doesn't mean that we should intend it that way.
But it is our game now, not Gary's. The fact that he intended it a particular way doesn't mean that we should intend it that way.
After 6 pages of discussion and a lot of bouncing around, a lot of things lose context.
My point was in response to a comment that die rolling goes against the all PCs should be equal philosophy. Nothing more.
Sorry I got a little pissed at the above comments, but Gary was a HUGE hero of mine growing up and all through the years. I found those comments distasteful, disrespectful, and painfully out of line.
Sorry I got a little pissed at the above comments, but Gary was a HUGE hero of mine growing up and all through the years. I found those comments distasteful, disrespectful, and painfully out of line.
But calling someone "mentally retarded" for that is stepping over the line. And I don't believe for a second that you did it "tounge in cheek" this time.
The "Gary would have hated it/loved it" argument has been brought up so much on RPG boards in edition wars and general discussions all around the internet, that people's natural reaction is to dismiss it, and rightly so I must say. But they aren't disrispecting Gary, they are disrispecting the flawed argument.