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Has anyone else noticed the blatant favoritism for tigers that has plagued 3e? Pathfinder is complicit in this as well. Check it out.
Lion PF (Large 5HD, 21 Str)
Tiger PF (Large 6HD, 23 Str)
Bear PF (Large 5HD, 21 Str)
Dire Lion PF (Large 8HD, 25 Str)
Dire Tiger PF (Large 14HD, 27 Str)
Dire Bear PF (Large 10HD, 25 Str)
Tigers are clearly superior to bears, which are roughly equal to lions. But real life tells a very different story.
The largest species of tiger averages 400 lbs, with a confirmed max of 700 lbs
The grizzly bear averages 400-800 lbs, with a max up to 1500 lbs.
Likewise, the prehistoric counterparts are misaligned. The Short faced bear weighed an average of 1800 lbs, and stood around 13 feet tall. (6 ft. at the shoulder on all fours!) Smilodon weighed 800-1000 lbs, and was about 4 ft. high at the shoulder.
Why does the noble bear suffer this injustice?
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Because they have the shoulders to hold it?
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Because they have the shoulders to hold it?
beacasue they can....bear it? :)
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Are you implying that the "better" animal is determined by the weight of the creature?
In that case...
USA! USA! USA!
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Because that's what house cats do?
Truthfully I think the big cats should instead have pounce grab and constriction that works off their bite while bears should have rend and constriction with their claws (bear hug).
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I've always been bothered by the bear as an animal compation. A bear starts off small and grows to medium...and so does a badger?! Since when are bears and badgers the same size? Badgers grow to 40 lbs, MAX. Even black bears can get up to 350 lbs. Tiger and lion companions get to be large, but bears don't? If having a bear companion older than an infant breaks the game then take them out altogether. Prejudice, I say.
Because that's what house cats do?
Truthfully I think the big cats should instead have pounce grab and constriction that works off their bite while bears should have rend and constriction with their claws (bear hug).
Yeah, bears don't bear hug. I do agree with you on the rend, though. They should also get ferocity ala the weasel family--bears are hard to kill.
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Bears have been forced to fight lions in real life. While sad and tragic, it did show that bears win almost every time. They are too tough and their skeletons are too strong for the lion to damage.
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I'm sorry if this is a little off topic but... Did anyone else think this involved furries before coming in?
Back on topic...
Bears get shafted, yeah... But what can ya do. Just pump em up a bit in your game and you're good to go.
Also, Umbral Reaver... While sad and tragic, I am now intensely curious as to who would win with a bear and a tiger given that Tigers are, indeed, the bigger badder cousins of the Lion.
Also, on the topic of big cats....
Why no stats for Ligers or Tigons? Man, non-half human hybrids get no love....
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I like the liger. It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's known for its skills in magic.
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The bear vs lion fights were in captivity (they don't meet in the wild) because people thought it was awesome and didn't care about the wellbeing of the animals. It was just dogfighting scaled up to exotic creatures.
I don't recall entirely, but I think I read that the issue the lion had was that its killshot (bite to the back of the neck) didn't work on the bear's padded, solid build, and just made it angrier.
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I'm gonna add the fact that in no WotC book for 3e or 3.5 or Paizo does there exist any stats for deer or elk. The closest thing I have ever seen is dire reindeer in Frostburn.Check out the Kingmaker AP 31
I think they're in the Player's Guide for Kingmaker as well. Same stats, just more pdf-shaped!
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I'm on the bandwagon for bears being beefed up. The polar bear is the world's largest land predator - an apex predator, naturally. While they are not as aggressive as bears from regions further south, every attack is predatory in nature, and playing dead won't do you any good.
Weight may not be an indication of actual threat posed by a creature, but it can definitely be used a crude measurement of strength, and several hundred pounds difference should see any polar bear at least 2-3 points above a tiger of equivalent maturity in Strength scores.
Tigers could definitely make up for that in speed and agility. Bears are big and kind of clumsy, which may not help much for the tiger, but it doesn't hurt.
I too am profoundly perplexed by the notion that a cat companion can outgrow a bear. Hell, a wolf can outgrow a bear. Make sense of that garbage for me. I'd rather the stats were raised across the board to allow smaller animals to become bigger than to take ONE option and make it weaker or less fun to fit in.
Bears are far from slow or clumsy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGLCZSiWr_I
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgPUhWQxkZk
They are not too eager to move and don't look as determined as cats, but they can be just as deadly.
I say we launch an Occupy Paizo movement until this injustice is addressed!
But seriously, why do bears get grab and cats get grab, pounce, and rake?
I might be way behind on my Adventure Nature watching, but I can't think of a single instance where I saw footage of a bear jumping at a victim in a deathly flurry of paws, only to then hold him by the front paws while furiously pawing away with the hind paws.
In the case of cats, I was victim to something like that. Not a lion or tiger or liger, obviously, but what a house cat lacks in pure muscle power, it more than makes up for in shock value!
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I like the liger. It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's known for its skills in magic.
Holds no candle to the honey badger.
A tiger would lose a fight against a comparable lion, therefore making it IRL inferior to both bears and lions.
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A tiger would lose a fight against a comparable lion, therefore making it IRL inferior to both bears and lions.
Tigers are generally superior to lions, and proved it in gladiatorial games against similar opponents, not so much each other because of the lion's mane. Tigers bite for the throat, getting a mouthful of mane.
Oops.A tiger vs. a comparable mane-less lion was considered superior, and the largest tigers were true monsters.
Mind you, this isn't based on observation or zoological research, but historical data I read some time ago re: gladiator fights.
That same data validates the bear comments above. Bears would destroy their feline opponents, often with one swipe caving in the skull of lions & tigers. They quit pitting bears against exotic creatures because the battles were often so short.
I reckon it's Bear>tiger>lion re: 'real-life' CR.
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What we need to do is start cross-breeding the bears with other, more vicious, animals. Like owls.
My group used beartraps with great efficiency in the first module of Kingmaker.
Then the GM threatened to start using Beartraps against us, and we stopped with much haste.
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What we need to do is start cross-breeding the bears with other, more vicious, animals. Like owls.
Owls are like the stealth bombers of the animal world -- know what else we should cross them with? Frogs.
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Owlbearoghemoth. Also known as the "OhgodWhyDoIExist?!?!"
Its name comes from the only thing he says.
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Owlbearoghemoth. Also known as the "OhgodWhyDoIExist?!?!"
Its name comes from the only thing he says.
You know though a bearog would be awesome -- with the tongue pull ability and grab? That's like a fight with a mobile strong roper that's poisonous to boot.
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A creature with the size of a bear and the jumping abilities of a frog? All I got to say is... squish.
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Owlbearoghemoth. Also known as the "OhgodWhyDoIExist?!?!"
Its name comes from the only thing he says.
So... it's a pokemon?
Also: I like the great difference in abilities between the Big Cats and the Bear Companions, but I feel like the level of power is too great between the two. My suggestions?
1) Give the bear companion a slightly higher strength score starting off, start it at medium size, and increase the natural weapon damage dice by TWO steps when it becomes large size.
2) Give the bear the Ferocity ability, and, I know it sounds crazy, but give it DR/- equal to 1/2 its HD. Heck, maybe even make it equal to its HD at level 7 when it becomes a big bear.
Why such radical changes? Well, first of all, if your animal companion is meant for combat and DOESN'T have pounce, you need a way for it to compete with companions that do. Giving high damage per attack with fewer attacks doesn't change the superiority of Pounce, but it makes it a harder decision.
As for the later change, Bears are known for being really freakin' tough. These abilities make the bear more what I think it should be: Where a large cat is kind of like a Shock Trooper, the bear is your Tank... sure, he won't end the battle as quickly, but good luck trying to take him down! Now, from a tactical perspective, you have a clear choice which is made more challenging given the unique benefits of the two types of creatures.
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Beware the Bearog!
Bearog CR 7
XP 3,200
N Large Magical Beast
Init +5; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 17 (+1 Dex, +8 natural, –1 size)
hp 76 (8d8+40)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +14 (1d6+7 plus grab), bite +14 (1d8+7) or tongue
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks rend (2 claws, 1d6+7) swallow whole (5d6 acid damage, AC 14, 8 hp)
STATISTICS
Str 28, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +17 (+21 grapple; +19 Bull Rush); CMD 30 (34 vs. trip, grapple; 32 bull rush)
Feats Iron Will, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow
Skills Perception +11, Swim +23; Racial Modifiers +4 Swim
Poison Skin (Ex)
A creature that strikes a bearog with an unarmed strike or natural weapon exposes itself to the bearog’s poisonous skin.
Skin—contact; save Fort DC 14; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Wisdom damage; cure 1 save.
Tongue (Ex)
A bearog tongue is a primary attack with reach equal to three times the bearog's normal reach (30 feet for a Large bearog). A bearog’s tongue deals no damage on a hit, but can be used to grab. A bearog does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.
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Only one note: the tongue mentions a reach of 15 feet, but a normal bearog has a reach of 10', so shouldn't the tongue have a reach of 30 feet?
...
Other than that, that's EPIC. I need to find a picture of that.
Edit: Best I could do The Bearog!
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Tongue mentions a 15 foot reach for a medium bearog -- since our bearog is large with a 10 foot reach his would be 30.
However I did update the example.
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Rite has a template in one of their books that replaces the mouth of a creature with writing tentacles.
I threw a froghemoth with that at my party once.
An Owlbearoghemoth with that template would be beyond terrifying.
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The polar bear is the world's largest land predator - an apex predator, naturally.
-from http://www.kodiak.org/explore-kodiak/wildlife/bears.html
"Kodiak bears are the largest bears in the world. While they may grow to over 1,000 pounds, the average adult male weighs between 600-900 lbs; females generally weigh about 30 percent less. Although Kodiak bears are often touted as the world’s largest carnivore, they are actually omnivores. Although fish is an important part of their diet, they eat more grass, plants and berries than meat and rarely expend the time or effort necessary to chase and kill animals."
http://www.nwf.org/Wildlife/Wildlife-Library/Mammals/Grizzly-Bear.aspx
Grizzly bears weigh upwards of 700 pounds. The males are heavier than the females.
All bears are omnivores. They WILL eat anything that even resembles food (including both a friend's dog and her sweet potatoes). Polar bears are less picky and will chow down as soon as they sink their teeth into prey. I saw one half eat a small-ish seal while the seal was still trying to escape. With more food to hand, er, paw, Grizzlys might just leave without putting you on the menu. Also, most folks can't tell a Griz from the more common and less aggressive Brown bear. I can only do it reliably with specialist captioned pictures in a book or on the internet...unless the printer mixes things up!
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Like this owlbearfogmouth?
Name: “OH GOD OH GOD IT’S KILLING US!”
Size huge aberration CR14
Init +7; senses all-around vision, blindsight 30ft, darkvision 120ft, low-light vision, scent perception +
AC25, touch 11, flat-footed 22 (+3 dex, +14 natural, -2 size)
HP 186 (16d10+96)
Fort +18, ref +13, will +6
Immune electricity (partial) resist fire 10
Weakness: slowed by electricity
Speed 40ft, swim 30ft, fly 30ft (poor), climb 20ft
Melee: bite+25 (2d6+9 19-20 plus grab), 4 tentacles+23 (1d8+9 plus grab), tongue+23 (1d4+4 plus grab) and 2 claw attacks +25 (2d6+9)
Space 15ft; reach 15ft (30ft with tongue)
Special attacks: constrict (tentacle, 1d8+9), swallow whole (5d6 acid damage, AC17, hp18)
STR 29 DEX 16 CON 23 INT 2 WIS 13 CHA 11
Base Atk +16, CMB +27 CMD 38
Feats: cleave, improved critical (bite), improved initiative, lightning reflexes, lunge, multiattack, power attack, skill focus (stealth), great fortitude, run
Skills: perception +20, stealth +13(+21 in swamps +25 in snowy areas) racial modifiers: +8 perception, +8 stealth in marshes, +12 stealth in snowy area
Languages: none
Special abilities: evasion (as the rogue ability),
Truly this is your magnum opus, Kain! And yet - ursine prejudice still plagues us!
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Has anyone else noticed the blatant favoritism for tigers that has plagued 3e? Pathfinder is complicit in this as well. Check it out.
Lion PF (Large 5HD, 21 Str)
Tiger PF (Large 6HD, 23 Str)
Bear PF (Large 5HD, 21 Str)Dire Lion PF (Large 8HD, 25 Str)
Dire Tiger PF (Large 14HD, 27 Str)
Dire Bear PF (Large 10HD, 25 Str)Tigers are clearly superior to bears, which are roughly equal to lions. But real life tells a very different story.
The largest species of tiger averages 400 lbs, with a confirmed max of 700 lbs
The grizzly bear averages 400-800 lbs, with a max up to 1500 lbs.
Likewise, the prehistoric counterparts are misaligned. The Short faced bear weighed an average of 1800 lbs, and stood around 13 feet tall. (6 ft. at the shoulder on all fours!) Smilodon weighed 800-1000 lbs, and was about 4 ft. high at the shoulder.
Why does the noble bear suffer this injustice?
Only gameplay reason I could think of is that unless the setting is exotic, players will oftentimes run into bears earlier than into large wildcats...and its meant so that the more common animals doesn't kill them in one hit, but if they go looking for trouble in exotic locales...which they'd only have the liberty of doing at higher levels, the animals can present an equal challenge.
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Only gameplay reason I could think of is that unless the setting is exotic, players will oftentimes run into bears earlier than into large wildcats...and its meant so that the more common animals doesn't kill them in one hit, but if they go looking for trouble in exotic locales...which they'd only have the liberty of doing at higher levels, the animals can present an equal challenge.
I don't buy it. You're already casting spells, EVERYTHING IS EXOTIC! STRONGER BEARS NOW!
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now that this great injustice has been brought to my attention, i must speak up. buff bears now!
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Give the bears adamantium skeletons with cold iron lacing. Magic problem solved.
But to make it fair give tigers the ability to breathe under water and a burrow speed.
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I can bearly believe you would think such lies.
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*attempts to start chant*
What do we want? BEARS!
When do we want 'em? N...AAAAARGH!
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Bears should start off medium and grow to large by 7th-level.
Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +3 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement
Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks grab.
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Whoops--the advancement should be at 7th.
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Bearly too late to edit the original I see.