If a GM allows such an item, they already don't care about balance :)
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My personal take to gauge the price of magic items that allow the use of personal spells to members of other classes without using UMD is to consider the spell 1 level higher (with the needed increase in CL).
I still wouldn't accept some magic item as the price wouldn't be in line with the cost of existing items, but it give a reasonable benchmark.
The above mentioned ring of lead blade would cost
CL 4 (minimum level at which a ranger get a level 2 spell) * SL 2 * 2.000 *2 = 32.000
Once/day = 6.400
A reasonable price for a item that increase your damage by 1-2 points for each meele weapon you wield without "burning" weapon enhancements.
If a GM allows such an item, they already don't care about balance :)
That's an outright fabrication. The magic item rules aren't optional, they're part of the core rules. They explain how to make magic items in the same way that the magic items in the core rules were created. Sorry, I don't buy that there's anything wrong with it.
As for true strike, you cannot make it continuous because of its unusual duration. It does not have a duration measured in minutes, or even rounds, but a special unique duration. You cannot make a continuous true-strike any more readily than you could make a continuous fireball effect.
Having an item that allows you to use true-strike at will is perfectly fine. Every other round is the fastest you can use such an item, which limits its usefulness for most. A quickened true strike would be factored as a 5th level spell with a 9th caster level, and would allow you to pop a true-strike as a swift-action. Also, not a problem.
The example items use the boots of speed as a reference. Boots of Speed is a continuous use set of haste boots that have been sliced into charges and given 2 charges, with the duration of those charges allowable to split as desired.
Even if you crafted a set of boots to do the same thing, allowing you to regain 5 hp every time you used a move action to move, that wouldn't be overpowered either. It would be a cute way to regain HP, since healing magic is already underpowered.
I've been playing 3E since it's release and the magic item creation rules actually work really, really well. It's rare that I find something that's actually overpowered that are derived from those rules when those rules are being used correctly.
However, far too often people try to use illegal combinations (incorrect targeting with potions), ignore duration modifiers or limiters (particularly with continuous use), forget to include material component costs (which are multiplied by 50 for charged items or 100 for continuous or unlimited), and so on and so forth.
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Okay, seriously, immunity to X is immunity unless something calls out specifically that they bypass immunity*. It's obvious that the intent is that even if you have Tireless Rage you're still fatigued. (Word count and the desire to avoid loopholes for tireless-rage-like abilities probably got in the way of being more clear).
Immunity is meant to be very very powerful. If it is meant to be overridden, it will be explicitly stated as such. In the context of the ability, the phrase "even if they would not normally be" is an obvious reference to tireless rage, not a reference to immunity.
*The absolutely only case I can think of for this being done is the fact that you can critical and sneak attack incorporeal creatures if and only if you use a ghost touch weapon, and this is stated along with their immunity rather than being a separate rule.
Take EWP Broad Sword, then weild a large broad sword, doing 2d8, grab a potion of enlarge person(or get it made permenant), making the sword 3d8, then use furious finish. That's 48 damage without powerattack or strength added in.
It's a really good way to make a spring attacker, with beastial leaper, but I still don't see why it would get through immunity to fatigue.
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Take EWP Broad Sword, then weild a large broad sword, doing 2d8, grab a potion of enlarge person(or get it made permenant), making the sword 3d8, then use furious finish. That's 48 damage without powerattack or strength added in.
It's a really good way to make a spring attacker, with beastial leaper, but I still don't see why it would get through immunity to fatigue.
As Lead blades don't change your weapon size you can stack it for 5d8?
Kyrt, if you are using a longsword you add an average of 2.5 hp of damage to each hit without increasing the weapon cost.
If you are wielding 2 weapons or a greatsword the average increase in damage is 3.5.
Not worth it a low level, maybe, but a high level, instead of giving to your weapon a +1 or +2 enhancement? yes, it is worth it.
I suspect you are doing your evaluation on low level play, where adding a enhancement to a weapon has a low cost.
As your weapon grow more powerful the cost of an enhancement increase.
If you are using 2 weapons you already will be saving money guying a pair of gauntlets giving this effect in a permanent form than increasing the weapons bonus from +4 to +5.
Unless you play E6 or some such, pricing this kind of item so low will burn you when you reach higher levels.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If a GM allows such an item, they already don't care about balance :)That's an outright fabrication. The magic item rules aren't optional, they're part of the core rules.
Whether custom magic items are 'legal' or not is really irrelevant. It's sort of like creating a build based on the assumption that you can take Leadership and have a follower cast buffing spells on you all day long to prove your point. You might technically be correct, but for all practical purposes your concept is unworkable at 99% of tables so it's meaningless.
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I suspect you are doing your evaluation on low level play, where adding a enhancement to a weapon has a low cost.
As your weapon grow more powerful the cost of an enhancement increase.If you are using 2 weapons you already will be saving money guying a pair of gauntlets giving this effect in a permanent form than increasing the weapons bonus from +4 to +5.
Unless you play E6 or some such, pricing this kind of item so low will burn you when you reach higher levels.
Higher levels are the least of my concerns Diego. By the time you reach level 15+ everything is so crazy +2.5 hp of damage (or 3.5 with a greatsword, or 7 with a psionic warrior using double-expansion and a greatsword) per hit isn't anything extravagant.
Something else you're forgetting, is that by increasing the enhancement bonus of your weapon you penetrate more DR types, which is a very good thing that's certainly worth more than just +1 attack and damage.
I've run all levels of the game (though I've yet to do a 1-20 campaign) and I can say that I would never, ever charge a player more than 6,000 GP for a ring of lead blades (and that's in a more flexible economy system where it costs +50% of normal because ranger ring crafters are rare)
Remember that it stacks with your weapon enhancements. So you can get your +10 maximum enhancement on the weapon and get extra damage.
I suppose everyone has its preference.
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Two things I would like to point out.
1. The folks interpreting this as "You can have the Fatigue effect, but your immunity to it makes you immune to the effects", valid interpretation, but by that explanation, Rage says that you CAN'T reenter Rage while you are fatigued. Which you are, you just don't suffer the effects from it.
So even though you are immune to the normal effects of rage, you still possess the Fatigued statue ailment, and as long as you have that status ailment, you can't activate Rage.
2. Second, if you want to be REALLY anal about the rules, Furious Finish does NOT state that you suffer the normal fatigue effects for coming out of Rage, it simply states that you are fatigued. Which means that, the way it is written, the Fatigue caused by Furious Finish DOESN'T wear off after a few rounds, because it's not Rage fatigue. It's normal fatigue, and that takes 8 hours of rest(or some other effect) to get rid of.
This.Okay, seriously, immunity to X is immunity unless something calls out specifically that they bypass immunity*. It's obvious that the intent is that even if you have Tireless Rage you're still fatigued. (Word count and the desire to avoid loopholes for tireless-rage-like abilities probably got in the way of being more clear).
Immunity is meant to be very very powerful. If it is meant to be overridden, it will be explicitly stated as such. In the context of the ability, the phrase "even if they would not normally be" is an obvious reference to tireless rage, not a reference to immunity.
I also concur. Specific has always overruled general. Did a PFS scenario the other day which had a disease in it which "specifically" stated that Paladins were susceptible--regardless of their general immunity to disease.
I suggest to don't let barbs do "rage cycle".
You could do that. Or you could disallow sneak attack with two-handed weapons or you could disallow 3rd Level spells or animal companions.
@Topic:
The best way to use furious finish is a kind of rage cycling that does not depend on fatigue immunity: The scarred rager halves the duration of fatigue effects. Just start rage at the beginning of your turn and end it after your actions are done. You are now fatigued for 1 round, meaning the fatigue ends just before your next turn comes up.
You loose the benefits of rage off-turn meaning you can't use things like come and get me but you loose the AC penalty, too. Because of the fatigue you still have reduced AC but not both.
...3 1/2 years. Good job guys!
...3 1/2 years. Good job guys!
Is there a faq out for this, after 3 1/2 years (of a very common question in the forums). The latest relevant Im aware of is the "specific trumps general" sort of thing.
Furious Finish has such poor design though... It's bad enough Vital Strike doesn't scale with BAB already like Power Attack does. Forcing you to be fatigued even if you got immunity is just bad... It told away the only chance for Vital Strike tree to be effective in combat. So much investment for just one hit. If it only takes two feats than I can deal with the fatigue, but not when I had to take 4 feats for that... Then again, Paizo and most designer is bad at balancing as usual... Should had just follow those simple game design theories when creating class, feats, race, magic and items, but I don't think they ever study for that...
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Nice necro.
Some how I've missed this topic for years, so it must not be too commonly asked.
As for my take, you would be fatigued despite being immune. Specific over general.
That would lead to situations where you crit uncritable creatures. that doesn't seem right. Or burning fire elementals that are immune to fire.
I'm in the camp that you get fatigued but since you're immune it doesn't have an effect. Why THIS would make a conctruct tired when nothing else does IMO doesn't make sense.
PS: I'm calling a cleric... this is major necro... :P
Curious how an Invulnerable Rager with Cord of Stubborn Resolve would interact with this as that magic item offers a specific rule also.